many or few?

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- you referred to Abraham's Bosom as the 'netherworld'. Using the term 'netherworld' sounds like a mythological term. Let's use the Biblical term.

And, yes, when Jesus Christ died on the cross, He went to Abrahams' Bosom / the Paradise side and took all in Paradise back up with Himself when He arose from the death on that 3rd day.

I'm sure that Abrahams' bosom had enough room for all of them. God created it -- He knew how big it would need to be.

The Mark 5 passage -- the man with the unclean spirit -- he cried out to Jesus vs 7 -- the demons begged Jesus to send them into a bunch of swine vs 12 , Jesus gave them permission to enter the 2,000 swine and they ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea."

So you're proceeding to make your own assumptions about the Hades part of Abraham's bosom -- we're not told where it is -- just that it IS.

Spirits are invisible entities. We observe the effects Of them.

Scripture does Say except that it Does exist -- if You want to believe it's located in an area of solid rock -- that's your poragative.

You again use the term 'netherworld' -- of course you haven't had a chance to read this post, yet.

Scripture tells us all that God feels we need to know about Abraham's bosom and the conditions therein. We are told that the rich man was very aware of his situation / felt discomfort.

Are we concerned enough about eternity to be sharing the Gospel unto salvation with all who will listen?

 

[Garee]

WHAT??
The underworld is a spiritual realm and is not limited by our planetary size.
and people do not go to Heaven - all the dead do sleep in the underworld (Sheol or Hades) and await their awakening at either the first resurrection or the second resurrection.

The under world of lying spirits is limited to the lies. It has nothing to do with the things seen the courupted dead . . . . powerless. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood as rudiments of this world the temporal seen .

We are given new born again spirits that will never die The first resurection . There will be no second resuurection. The second death the death of death itself along wih its sufering in dying call hell

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

One resurection. . . . two deaths. (1) the death of those under the law and its suferings and (2) the death of the law as it is writen ethched in stone . It wil not enter the new order. Until then not one jot or title could be removed.

The letter of the law that declares we are guilty and suffering the pangs of hell . It wil not rise up and condem another whole creation. The rudiments of this world have been cast away as far as East is from West . . never to appear forever more.

New heavens and earth not a rebuilt or reconditioned made from the old corrupted rudiments .

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee --then how do you account for the rich man and Lazarus , who died and the rich man was conscious of being in agony.

 

[Garee]

@Garee --then how do you account for the rich man and Lazarus , who died and the rich man was conscious of being in agony.

That series of parables was used to help us understand how to walk or understand by faith is in respect to the idea of someone saying mankind can serve two teaching masters. It is clearly the context beginning in chapter 15 all the way through chapter 16.. Ending in verse 1 of chapter 17.Again the context no man can serve two teaching authorities itnever changed

Luke 15:1-3 King James Version (KJV)Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. And he spake this parable unto them, saying

(Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

(1) The word of God, all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptural)

(2) I heard it through the grape vine as a law of the fathers. A hierarchy of men that lord it over those non- venerable.

To get the whole gist of the ongoing series of parables one must start from the beginning as an answer to a query. Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receives sinners, and eateth with them. They were in opposition to his teaching. In that way no man can serve the things of God as the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man as mammon

Luke 16:13-16 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Their teaching as a oral traditions of the fathers justified their own self after necromancy. . seeking after the dead as some do with what they call patron saints that teaching clearly appose sola scriptura (all thing written in the law and the prophets)

The rich man represented by mammon (wisdom of this world) in that parable is used to represent the apposing teaching authority .He is shown suffering the pang of hell the wage of sin death. Not being yoked with Christ he looks to the occult .necromancy (seeking the dead for the living . In conclusion to the series of parable Jesus said if a person does not get under the authority of sola scriptural (all things written in the law and prophets than neither will they believe when Jesus arose from the dead . we are not to seek after necromancy (I heard it through the grape vine oral tradition) called mammon.

The wisdom of this world represented by the Rich man in that parable is attempting to commune with those no longer under the Sun .(necromancy) twice ignoring the advice " believe God as it is writen in the law and the prophets. ".

Luke 16:26-31 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Neither will they be persuaded, though one did rise from the dead. Faith the unseen wil of God it comes by hearing God (all things written in the law or Moses and prophets)

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- what about the passages in Matthew 13 -- Jesus is specifying that He's speaking to them in parables.

That isn't the case in the Luke passage. So -- just Maybe reason that That is being told to us is to let us know exactly what it Is like -- literally -- in Hades. That it Is indeed a real place of torment -- the rich man, himself, wasn't willing to listen and now wants his brothers to be warned.

 

[Garee]

Well -- what about the passages in Matthew 13 -- Jesus is specifying that He's speaking to them in parables.

That isn't the case in the Luke passage. So -- just Maybe reason that That is being told to us is to let us know exactly what it Is like -- literally -- in Hades. That it Is indeed a real place of torment -- the rich man, himself, wasn't willing to listen and now wants his brothers to be warned.

Hi thanks for the reply.

No man can serve two teaching masters masters. The word of God all things written in the law and prophets .and necromancy.

Literal hades hell is the suffering we experience of the first death . Its appointed to all men . We cannot to serve two teaching masters

The Hebrew word darash (seek ) it is used two ways in one verse one to represent seeking after God through all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptural) And (2) seeking after the legion of the dead called workers with familiar spirits or called by some patron saints. Over 3500 authorized today adding picking up speed.

Again the word seek has a dark side. They suffer the pangs of hell under the leter of the law death . . not yoked with Christ. . They shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.(hades) with no future hope of rising. death as to its suferings.


Isaiah 8: 19-22 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upwards And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Strong’s definition below

Darash… to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require to resort to, frequent (a place), (tread a place) to consult, enquire of, seek

(1) Of God

(2) Of heathen gods, necromancers

To seek deity in prayer and worship God

Heathen deities to seek (with a demand), demand, require

To allow oneself to be enquired of, consulted (only of God)

 

[B-A-C]

No man can serve two teaching masters masters. The word of God all things written in the law and prophets .and necromancy.

Literal hades hell is the suffering we experience of the first death . Its appointed to all men . We cannot to serve two teaching masters

I know this is between you and Sue, (I did start this thread) but you have so much stuff here so convoluted and twisted, I don't even really know where to begin.
The two masters or God and wealth ( Matt 6:24; Luke 16:13; ) they have nothing to do with Necromancy.

The lake of fire is NOT what we experience in the first death, it's what sinners/unbelievers experience in the 2nd death. ( Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8; )

All this side-tracking about Daresh and seeking has nothing to do with the wide gate and the narrow gate.

Matt 7:13; “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Sue D.]

That's one of the comments I was going to make in response. No one Has to be experiencing hell or lake of fire and brimstone.

The Only people who'd end up in Hades/ Hell / what ever a person calls the other side of Abrahams' bosom / Paradise -- are those who have rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

You beat me to it @ B-A-C.

 

[Beetow]

OBJECTION: Classical Christianity's hell doesn't make sense that a supposedly
loving God would torment people in a fiery prison forever and ever.

RESPONSE: The human common sense is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby
organic tissue; and not even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive
processes. On top of that, those three pounds are 60% fat. That fatty, flabby,
organic tissue can alter one's personality with little more than an aneurism or a
blow to the head.

Just how sensible can a fatty, flabby, organic sense really be compared to the sense
of a supernatural being with enough intelligence to invent, design, and construct a
fully functioning cosmos with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy? A fatty,
flabby, organic sense isn't even a dunce in comparison: it's a sub dunce; if even
that.

• 1Cor 3:20 . .The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are empty.

Well; that's certainly not a very flattering evaluation. It's as much as saying that, in
God's opinion, the smartest among humanity basically consists of air heads; and if
that's His evaluation of the best and brightest, then where does God rank those of
us whose IQ hovers between average and below?

UPDATE: 152 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 9,442,848 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.

NOTE: The current population of New York City is estimated to be 8.4 million
people. In other words; in only five months, the fiery sector of Hades on this thread
has accumulated enough people to populate NYC and have roughly one million left
over with which to completely populate San Jose California.
_

 

[Br. Bear]

UPDATE: 152 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 9,442,848 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.

we should be concerned if only one person had perished in that time

Lord, move us, please

 

[Beetow]

According to a report released on March 25, 2014 by the World Health
Organization; air pollution kills, on average, seven million people per annum; and is
linked to one in eight deaths (12.5%) world-wide.

According to a report by the public health agency of the United Nations; an
estimated 4.3 million people in developing countries died in 2012 as a result of
indoor air pollution, mostly from cooking inside with coal or wood stoves.

Air pollution is so lethal because it exacerbates other conditions like cardio vascular
diseases, cancer, and respiratory illnesses. Were people with those conditions
permitted to breathe clean air free of hazardous chemicals and toxic particulates,
they would live longer; thus the arrival times of many tagged for the infernal
regions would be delayed so they could enjoy life a bit longer before beginning an
eternity of perpetual anguish.

UPDATE: 155 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 9,629,220 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Downunder]

thus the arrival times of many tagged for the infernal regions would be delayed so they could enjoy life a bit longer before beginning an eternity of perpetual anguish.

Thank God that judgement is in the hands of Jesus, who will bestow mercy upon whom he will give mercy to.
do not be so quick to condemn everybody in the world.

 

[Sue D.]

God's Word tells Everyone how to stay Out of the future lake of fire and brimstone.

How to be able to Enjoy the New Jerusalem through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. Heart belief / acceptance and thanking God for His gift of salvation.

 

[Beetow]

The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and fierce
anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which indicates
an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be weeping big wet
crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great White Throne event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated with extreme prejudice; viz:
their judgment will be administered with choler. (cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals that
inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in attack. Ferocity is
an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions savagely attacking prey.
There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality,
and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of humane
feelings

• Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It speaks of
someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're actually red in the
face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so coddled
by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the magnitude of the
lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

• John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the
Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

• Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by
the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from
the dead.

• Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress
of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

UPDATE: 158 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 9,815,592 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Beetow]

• 2Thes 2:11-12 . . God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe
the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had
pleasure in unrighteousness.

In other words: there's coming a time when God's patience will reach its reasonable
limits, and He will purposely, willfully, and deliberately make sure that a certain
category of people have no chance whatsoever to be spared the wrath of God.

Back when Noah was preparing the ark, no doubt his neighbors all mocked and
poked fun at him like one of those deranged souls that go around with a sandwich
board that reads: Repent; The End Is Near! But when the rain started, I bet those
very same neighbors panicked and tried to get Noah to open up and let them in.
But even had Noah wanted to; he couldn't. The hatch of the ark was sealed from
the outside: and God was the only one on earth who could open it-- He chose not
to.

• Rev 1:18 . . I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive
forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

• Rev 3:7 . .These are the words of him who is holy and true: who holds the key of
David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

UPDATE: 161 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 10,001,964 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Downunder]

then something like 10,001,964 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades

Why do you write the fiery sector of Hades.
I am lead to believe that in Sheol and Hades there are no thoughts, no memories, no ability to praise God, there is only sleep > unconsciousness.
for example:
King David writes about himself in Psalm 17:15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.
and Job declares
Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

 

[Beetow]

Why do you write the fiery sector of Hades.

I don't have access to any of Christ's teachings in his own personal language; which
could've been Hebrew and then again could've been Aramaic or even Latin. All I
have access to are Greek versions of his teachings translated into English.

In several incidents, Jesus is recorded speaking of the afterlife by means of the
Greek word háidēs (a.k.a. hades) which was doubtless borrowed from Hellenistic
influences prevalent in that day.

The Greek's háidēs was believed to be a conscious afterlife where everybody went
when they died regardless of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of
course implies that not only was the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 in háidēs but so
were Abraham and Lazarus; even Jesus did some time there. (Matt 12:40 & Acts
2:25-31)

Something I had to learn early on as a Christian is that Jesus Christ is God's final
word to mankind, viz: His son's teachings trump all other teachings that came
before him including Moses, the prophets, David, Solomon, and Job too.

Incidentally, the correct word for "grave" in the New Testament isn't háidēs, it's
actually mnemeion (mnay-mi' on), for example:

• Matt 27:52-53 . . And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into
the holy city, and appeared unto many.

• Matt 27:59-60 . . And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean
linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and
he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

• John 11:18 . . Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four
days already.

• John 11:38 . . Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It
was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

• John 12:17 . . The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out
of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

Those are only a smattering of examples from the New Testament where grave is
properly translated from mnemeion. Bible committees that render háidēs as grave
do so arbitrarily, i.e. by interpretation rather than by translation. Caveat Lector.
_

 

[Downunder]

Bodies are in the grave or in the sea or dissipated as ash and so on. But souls are collectively in Sheol or Hades.
This is especially so when bodies are burned and there is no grave to speak of - such as ashes being sprinkled in the Ganges River or into the sea.

Act 2:31 He seeing this beforeG4275 spakeG2980 ofG4012 theG3588 resurrectionG386 of Christ,G5547 thatG3754 hisG846 soulG5590 was notG3756 leftG2641 inG1519 hell,G86 neitherG3761 hisG846 fleshG4561 did seeG1492 corruption.G1312
G86 > hadēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 11
Where Jesus does refer to hell as punishment and fire he uses a very different word as in
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
G1067 γέεννα geenna gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Total KJV occurrences: 12
I believe this valley was Jerusalem's rubbish dump and had continuous smouldering fires burning up the rubbish.

 

[Beetow]

• Acts 2:31a . . his soul was not left in hades

Classical hades is divided into sections where the souls of the dead are assigned in
accordance with the quality of their pre-death existence. The worst section is a
deep abyss called Tartarus; which is utilized in the New Testament at 2Pet 2:4.

According to Luke 23:13, Jesus' soul waited for his body's recovery in the better
section of haides.

• Acts 2:31 . . neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus' corpse was packed in spices but to my knowledge, not embalmed. Had it
been allowed to remain deceased longer than three days, decay would've set in.
(John 11:39.

UPDATE: 164 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 10,188,336 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Beetow]

A forgiven sinner is still sinful, and they'll go right on sinning same as before they
were forgiven unless they undergo a radical re-design because human nature is
intrinsically bad.

• Gen 6:5 . .Yhvh saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

• Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.

• Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may
you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

• Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

• John 3:7 . . You should not be surprised at my saying: you must be born again.

Well; in light of the passages above, it's certainly no surprise to me that people
need to be brought to life all over again from scratch; and I'm not talking about
reincarnation; no, I'm talking about an upgrade to the very core of their being so
that they would, by nature, be the children of heaven rather than the children of
hell.

UPDATE: 167 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 10,374,708 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_