Heaven after hell?

[KingJ]

What does it matter if I am saved or not, if I can sit beside you, break bread, bless it, and share it?

I feel my post has flown over your head. Did you read the first line only? Read the last line maybe?

 

[complete]

Complete, you actually need to. Not sure how you are not aware of the fact that you believe God is partial and wicked.

Cherry picking three wicked for eternal torture in fire is partiality and wickedness on par with Stalin, Himmler, Hitler, Ivan the terrible and Saddam Hussein.


I don't feel you have thought about this. Would you cherry pick three prisoners and place them in a brazen bull for all eternity. That seems unfair to me and I am pretty sure every person on this planet with more then half a working brain.

This just makes me so irritated. You say ''He is just'' but portray Him at the height of wickedness.

''This guy just raped me, but I am sure he meant well, his t-shirt says black lives matter''.

Knowing the secrets of men's hearts is not grounds for punishing them. Actions are grounds.

There is a world of difference between thought, intent and actual action. Rom 2:6 is crystal clear that each are rewarding according to what they actually did.

Consider Matt 5:28 where Jesus says the thought of adultery is a sin, but then in Matt 5:32 He clarifies that only actual adultery is grounds for divorce.

The benefit God has in knowing hearts is that He can know if someone will ever desire true repentance. That is it.

Just judgmenent rewards according to '''actual''' deeds, not, thoughts. Imagine God did that with us.

As such, a judgement of annihilation for two sinners, where one stole candy from the candy store and another was a serial rapist is terribly unjust and the height of it.

So in essence you teach the lost that God is partial, wicked and unjust.



Yes, one minute of torture is worse then annihilation, agreed. Every person on this planet with a working brain will agree.

How is it that you can see the light of that fact and not the matters I raise above?

We need to re-visit our understanding of God and hell. Before we say one word about hell, we need to ''fully'' grasp that God is righteous in all His ways.

One minute of torture is wicked. Repaying evil with evil is wicked. God is not wicked. I like 1 John 1:5, it says God is light with no darkness in Him at all.

As such, hell has to be seen as a prison that a good person has created. You cannot mix those sold-out to sin with those who hate it and repent. They have to be separated. This does not mean you need to torture or annihilate them.

When God explained the earth to Adam after he sinned, God mentioned a handful of terrors that awaited him. But we know that he was able to endure these and we know that earth has many many pleasantries that God did not mention. God did not bother mention exotic beaches to Adam in scripture as ''pleasantries'' from a good God, should be a given. Many Christians just either don't know God or have not applied their minds to what they teach about Him.

Hello @KingJ,

I do not recognise the thoughts and opinions that you perceive me to have expressed. You have misrepresented me completely. God is not partial, neither is He wicked. He is a God of righteousness and justice. I have no doubt that He will act justly with every man. Far more justly that you and I can ever be, for we do not have His heart, or His insight. He has given us the means of escape from the wrath to come, through the death and resurrection of His only Begotten Son. So I worship Him, and praise His Holy Name.

I am sorry that you have such a dim view of me, but it can't be helped. God's word is true, and I believe what is said within it's pages.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

If people are in hell for eternity, why would they get out on Judgement Day only to be recast into hell? Could some of them have learned their lesson or been punished enough and be judged differently? Maybe they just fell short and have served their time?

Hello @DieAmartyr,

I have not read through the responses you have received in this thread, so if I am repeating what has already been said, I apologise.

Firstly: Hell means 'to hide away', and is the place of the dead, whether that be the grave or the fires of end-time judgment.
Secondly: Man does not have an immortal soul. So when he dies the body goes back to the dust from whence it came and the breath of life (or spirit) goes back to God who gave it, and man ceases to be a living soul. The believing dead are spoken of as being 'asleep in Christ', for in God's eyes they are not dead but living, awaiting the resurrection of the dead. However, the Bible also assures us that there is no consciousness in death, for the faculties pertaining to life have died. Hezekiah in Isaiah 38:18 declares:-

'Behold, for peace I had great bitterness:
but Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption:
for Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
For the grave cannot praise Thee,
death can not celebrate thee:
they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day:
the father to the children shall make known Thy truth.'
(Isa 38:17-19))

Yes, death is the absence of life, so the dead are not conscious, not able to think, to feel pain, or to suffer any form of conscious punishment. There is no life apart from the power of the resurrection. Also, there can be no punishment without judgment having taken place first. The Judgement is yet to come, and the dead are in their graves awaiting the resurrection of the dead.

We would not dream of sentencing someone without a fair trial having taken place. Yet we are told that the unbelieving dead are suffering torment now, having not yet been judged!!!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

it sounds like you've had or are having physical disabilities / ailments of one sort or another. So you are equating your suffering in body to being in hell? And there Are lots of people in other countries who Are suffering a Great deal. And that Might seem like 'hell on earth' -- but God's Word tells us that this life 'here' is only temporary. That the future heaven / lake of fire and brimstone are the only places available for real eternity.

I would refer to it as spiritual disabilities. Can’t see God with the temporal things seen he gives us ears as his spiritual understanding.

It’s not the things seen the temporal that we do wrestle against .We are carrying out the letter of the law death (the first) we live in bodies of death with no power by which we could believe God… suffering the wage of sin carrying out the temporal. The first death, as appointed to all flesh .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We therefore have no power not little none ,zip, nada.. .It’s the lord alone that can rebuke lying spirits and cause them to flee. .

Hell on earth is the suffering that faithless Cain suffered (He said my punishment as an increased load was more that he could bear).Unlike Abel in whom the Lord had favor on the first recorded martyr sent with the gospel as a apostle .His brother plowed him under in keeping with the pagan foundation out of sight out of mind .

The Holy Spirit warned others according to the mark of his word (666) in so much that his word does not return void but accomplished the good purpose by which he sends it .If they kill Cain then they also would not enter his rest. The father of lies is the serial murderer from that beginning. He suffered the pangs of hell with no rest all the days of his faithless life.

 

[Sue D.]

@complete -- consider for a moment the episode with Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 -- vs 22- 23 in particular -- "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham , have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee -- why do you bring 666 into the conversation. That doesn't come about for a Long time. That is found in book of Revelation. You tend to link lots of Scripture together in very unusual ways.

 

[complete]

@complete -- consider for a moment the episode with Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 -- vs 22- 23 in particular -- "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham , have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

Hello @Sue D,

With respect to you, I do not believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus can be used as an illustration of what happens at death, for it was not intended as such. I believe that it was spoken by the Lord to the Pharisees with the intent that they would see the hypocritical nature of their teaching, for it flies in the face of the Testimony of Scripture which says that there is no consciousness in death. Certainly no means of speaking, or communicating with either the living or the dead.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

I do not believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus can be used as an illustration of what happens at death,

Perhaps. But I don't believe Jesus ever told a story that conflicted with the actual reality of how things are.

There are number of scriptures on the Old Testament that say both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol.
Also in Ephesians it says Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth and set the captives (saints) free.
There is a verse in Psalms that says Sheol has enlarged itself.
There are about a dozen scriptures that seem to support this idea.

The word for Sheol, and the word for Hades are never the same word in the Bible.
Everyone goes to Sheol, only the wicked go to the Hades part.
The righteous went to the 'Abraham's Bosom' or paradise part of Sheol.

But places are temporary holding places.
The righteous eventually go to be with God.
The wicked eventually go to the Lake of Fire.

Does paradise still exist?

Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire. This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify. But here we...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Sue D.]

I'd thought that Sheol / Hades were the same place. That one is the Greek word and the other the Hebrew word ?!?! And I'd thought that Abraham's bosom was the name for the entire area with the divisions being Paradise and Hades.

but whatever it's called -- there's the holding place for non-born again people who are waiting for the final judgement time and then end up in the lake of fire / brimstone.

@ complete -- no one really wants to believe that people suffer for their unbelief after they die. That the grave should be the final place for them. That eternity in heaven is what really will exist. And I can see how people could be confused by that episode. Abraham speaking to the rich man After he'd died. There were several truths to be learned from that. How many people would keep on sinning with no repentence if they knew that when they died, there'd be no punishment. That they would simply cease to exist. Why Not just have 'fun' in the here and now. Never mind the people being hurt in the process. A very 'me' centered existance. But we're supposed to be living in a 'God-centered' awareness.

 

[complete]

Perhaps. But I don't believe Jesus ever told a story that conflicted with the actual reality of how things are.

There are number of scriptures on the Old Testament that say both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol.
Also in Ephesians it says Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth and set the captives (saints) free.
There is a verse in Psalms that says Sheol has enlarged itself.
There are about a dozen scriptures that seem to support this idea.

The word for Sheol, and the word for Hades are never the same word in the Bible.
Everyone goes to Sheol, only the wicked go to the Hades part.
The righteous went to the 'Abraham's Bosom' or paradise part of Sheol.

But places are temporary holding places.
The righteous eventually go to be with God.
The wicked eventually go to the Lake of Fire.

Does paradise still exist?

Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire. This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify. But here we...

www.talkjesus.com

Hello @B-A-C,

Thank you for responding.
Jesus was responding to the Pharisees, whose doctrine He had warned His disciples about on several occasions (Matthew 12:16) for they placed their own doctrines above the written word of God. So the story of the rich man and Lazarus was spoken to illustrate this, and show the hypocrisy of their teaching, which was not therefore spoken to conflict with the reality of what things are, for the word of God itself does not teach this.

With respect, I need scriptural qualification for the points you have made in regard to Sheol and Hades, and Abraham's Bosom, if you are in a position to provide it please.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

With respect, I need scriptural qualification for the points you have made in regard to Sheol and Hades, and Abraham's Bosom, if you are in a position to provide it please.

I included a link to a previous thread about this subject at the bottom of my previous post. (This goes to a thread here on TalkJesus)

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

I do not recognise the thoughts and opinions that you perceive me to have expressed. You have misrepresented me completely. God is not partial, neither is He wicked. He is a God of righteousness and justice. I have no doubt that He will act justly with every man. Far more justly that you and I can ever be, for we do not have His heart, or His insight. He has given us the means of escape from the wrath to come, through the death and resurrection of His only Begotten Son. So I worship Him, and praise His Holy Name.

I am sorry that you have such a dim view of me, but it can't be helped. God's word is true, and I believe what is said within it's pages.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Its not a dim view of you. Your teaching, what you believe is painting a terrible picture of God to the lost. If you love God you would look to rectify that and not take it personally.

You '''say''' God is righteous and impartial but you do not prove it. You just say it.

My analogy of a rapist being a good person because he has a black lives matter t-shirt applies 100% to your belief.

 

[complete]

Its not a dim view of you. Your teaching, what you believe is painting a terrible picture of God to the lost. If you love God you would look to rectify that and not take it personally.

You '''say''' God is righteous and impartial but you do not prove it. You just say it.

My analogy of a rapist being a good person because he has a black lives matter t-shirt applies 100% to your belief.

Hello @KingJ,

All I can say is that 'it is written'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

All I can say is that 'it is written'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The devil could say the same when he tempted Jesus. Just like him, you are not considering other essential scripture.

What shocks me about your belief, Garees and Sue's is that all of ''should'' know something is not adding up. A Christian should know God. Know they can't properly represent Him on a topic and say they have unreconciled ideas / scriptures. Not state a belief as conclusive when it clearly miss-represents God.

How I wish my English teacher taught you guys. When scripture says God is righteous in all His ways, it means, exactly that.

 

[complete]

The devil could say the same when he tempted Jesus. Just like him, you are not considering other essential scripture.

What shocks me about your belief, Garees and Sue's is that all of ''should'' know something is not adding up. A Christian should know God. Know they can't properly represent Him on a topic and say they have unreconciled ideas / scriptures. Not state a belief as conclusive when it clearly miss-represents God.

How I wish my English teacher taught you guys. When scripture says God is righteous in all His ways, it means, exactly that.

Hello @KingJ,

How easy it is to point the finger at others, to see the splinters in another's eyes and be totally unable to see the plank that is in our own. It is possible that I do have a plank in my own eye, maybe it is in relation to this, and if I do I have asked the Lord to show me if that is so. However your disparagement of the belief's expressed by those you have listed do nothing to encourage us to see things from your point of view.

If we misrepresent God, then that is a serious matter, and should be exposed, and I welcome your reproof if that is the case; but you have not yet put your case, or supplied evidence of that charge.

What is the difference between your representation of God in relation to this subject, and our own? Please tell us how you would have us represent God in this regard. So that we can see the contrast and judge accordingly.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

@Garee -- why do you bring 666 into the conversation. That doesn't come about for a Long time. That is found in book of Revelation. You tend to link lots of Scripture together in very unusual ways.

Sorry for side tracking and the unusual way.. Some of the doctrine is found in Revelation but it must be compared to the whole with anything that would relate to it .In that way we are to buy the truth of the gospel and not sell it as some like cain see no value in spiritual matters of faith

Its foundation is shown working out is in Genesis 4 as the mark of Cain . The mark of the living abiding Word . . .What He says will come to pass. We buy that truth.

 

[complete]

@ complete -- no one really wants to believe that people suffer for their unbelief after they die. That the grave should be the final place for them. That eternity in heaven is what really will exist. And I can see how people could be confused by that episode. Abraham speaking to the rich man After he'd died. There were several truths to be learned from that. How many people would keep on sinning with no repentance if they knew that when they died, there'd be no punishment. That they would simply cease to exist. Why Not just have 'fun' in the here and now. Never mind the people being hurt in the process. A very 'me' centered existence. But we're supposed to be living in a 'God-centered' awareness.

Hello there, @Sue D,

You will be as familiar with your Bible as I am with mine, and know that for the believing dead, who are reckoned by God to be 'in Christ Jesus' there will be no condemnation (Romans 8). They will be raised to life eternal.

* You will know also that the dead (outside of Christ) will be raised, and that judgement will take place. They will be judged according to their works (Romans 2), and will either be granted life or be subject to the second death.

* Hell is the grave, or the place of the dead, where the bodies of the dead are 'hidden away' and where they go back to the dust from whence they came. The breath of life, which gave them life, goes back to God Who gave it, so man ceases to be a living soul. It is devoid of life, it feels no pain or happiness, or sense of the passage of time for it has no consciousness. Only the power of the resurrection can raise it from the dead.

* The fact of the judgment to come, and the prospect of the second death is surely sufficient in itself for mankind to want to be reconciled to God and to be delivered from the wrath to come. It is a matter of 'life' or 'death', and not 'heaven' or 'eternal conscious punishment'. That is the choice to be made.

* The believer is reckoned by God to be 'asleep in Christ' because of the hope of life that they hold (1 Corinthians15:18). They will be raised to life in the presence of God, in Christ Jesus their Lord, and know His lovingkindness expressed through Christ Jesus in the age to come, in the new heaven and the new earth in which dwells righteousness.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

Perhaps. But I don't believe Jesus ever told a story that conflicted with the actual reality of how things are.

There are number of scriptures on the Old Testament that say both the righteous and the wicked go to Sheol.
Also in Ephesians it says Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth and set the captives (saints) free.
There is a verse in Psalms that says Sheol has enlarged itself.
There are about a dozen scriptures that seem to support this idea.

The word for Sheol, and the word for Hades are never the same word in the Bible.
Everyone goes to Sheol, only the wicked go to the Hades part.
The righteous went to the 'Abraham's Bosom' or paradise part of Sheol.

But places are temporary holding places.
The righteous eventually go to be with God.
The wicked eventually go to the Lake of Fire.

Does paradise still exist?

Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire. This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify. But here we...

www.talkjesus.com

I don't believe Jesus ever told a parable that conflicted with the actual reality of how teaching authorities of wisdom are to be rightly divided or understood .

It’s how we find the mystery of the gospel using the temporal things seen to be mixed with the unseen giving us the understanding of faith.,

Remember without parables beginning in Genesis Christ spoke not. We are to search for the hidden understanding as for silver or gold. Many literalize it not mixing faith, but look according to the historical alone. The meaning are not revealed to them .Hid from them without.

In that way parables teach us how to walk by faith the unsen eternal

The context. . . In a series of parables beginning in the previous chapter Luke 15

Luke 15:3-8 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Beginning with sheep to represent mammon the worldly wisdom and moving to coins. You could say the coin as wisdom from in need of light the unseen gospel to search out .

Luke 16 establishes the fact that no man can serve two teaching masters .The oral traditions of the Pharisees with Sadducees (law of the fathers) and all thing written in the law and the prophets .(sola scriptura)

The spirit of error is shown trying to establish necromancy communing with dead relatives a comon practice amonst unbeliving jews. fachel is used as a exapmple. hiding the teraphim she stold from her father.. And not according to all things written in the law and the prophets. In the end saying if you do not believe the bible but rather I heard it through the grape vine then when Jesus did arise from the tomb they would remain faithless . .no spiritual understanding. .

The word of God defending it as it is written The armor we put on.

The foundation of the matter. Luke 16: 13 “No servant can serve 2 teaching masters”as one good Lord :

Luke 16: 13 “No servant can serve two masters”: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Christians I believe walk by faith the unseen not by sight after the temporal things seen

 

[KingJ]

If we misrepresent God, then that is a serious matter, and should be exposed

Could not agree more and good to read this from you.

, and I welcome your reproof if that is the case; but you have not yet put your case, or supplied evidence of that charge.

Complete, I have, multiple times. I can link you to the posts if you wish. There are so many points I have raised and scriptures provided that you have not dealt with.

What is the difference between your representation of God in relation to this subject, and our own? Please tell us how you would have us represent God in this regard. So that we can see the contrast and judge accordingly.

In a nutshell

Your belief:

You believe in Annihilationism of all except three. Annihilation is not evidence of free will. ''Accept me or die'' is not free will. Free will is important to prove as 'no free will' to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves and angels would be evil. To defend 'no free will' as evidence of something a good God Psalm 136:1 who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 would do, is terribly hard to impossible. Your defense for such ''cannot!!'' simply be some cherry picked scriptures.

Then picking three is partiality. In no universe, on no planet, in no thinking persons mind is partiality evidence of a good God. It does not matter if it is the devil or Hitler. Partiality is partiality and partiality is at a height of wickedness. God is impartial Acts 10:34.

Sue's belief:

Sue believes all the wicked are burnt with fire and brimstone for all eternity.

Burning someone with actual fire for even a minute is torture. In no universe, on no planet, not among any using more then one brain cell is torture something associated with good and when it is eternal, just. Torture may be just as eye for an eye can be just. But no person has tortured others anywhere close to eternity and repaying evil with evil is not something a good God does. So, important to explain to the lost that God is both good and just.

As such, Sue insinuates God is at the height of wickedness. When Sue teaches the lost about hell, God is grouped with other names like Hitler, Saddam, Himmler, Stalin, Ivan the terrible and Nero.

My belief:

The wicked live on in hell for all eternity. They are sold out to wickedness and will never desire true repentance. They hate God and do not want to live with Him. So He is good in that He makes a home for them and honors their free will decision to hate Him.

There is fire, darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. But there are also many pleasantries. Just as God explained the horrors of life outside Eden to Adam and Eve, so too is the case with all scripture on hell. God mentions the horrors, only. He did not mention all the many many many pleasantries. Same with hell. Pleasantries '''should'''' be a given when your God is the literal definition of the words ''Good, Love, Righteous, Light, Holy and Just!!''.

We have a lot of insight into the fires of hell by considering the rich man and Lazarus story by Jesus. The rich man is on fire before judgement day. Meaning fire is not punishment but rather a consequence. The rich man was in torment and not torture. Recall Oscar Pretorius's case? He was crying a lot in court. He drank many cups of water. He was not screaming and he was not asking for buckets of water.

Darkness, John 3:19 teaches us that it is a metaphor for evil.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth is from isolation according to Luke 13:28.

________________________________

It seems most just go terribly wrong with ''the fire''. That is why I opened this thread The fires of hell.

 

[complete]

The devil could say the same when he tempted Jesus. Just like him, you are not considering other essential scripture.

What shocks me about your belief, Garees and Sue's is that all of ''should'' know something is not adding up. A Christian should know God. Know they can't properly represent Him on a topic and say they have unreconciled ideas / scriptures. Not state a belief as conclusive when it clearly miss-represents God.

How I wish my English teacher taught you guys. When scripture says God is righteous in all His ways, it means, exactly that.

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;'
(Rom 1:16)

Hello again, @KingJ,

Paul in Romans 1:16-18 (above) when talking of the gospel of Christ, does not only say that it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, or that it is available to the Jew (first) and to the Greek (or Gentile), or that therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but he also says why it is being proclaimed, 'for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness'. So Paul does not shy away from the fact of the wrath of God, or fail to declare it along with the means of escape.

Would you say that Paul is misrepresenting God? Of course not. He spoke the truth as God had revealed it to him. He did not seek to lessen the truth concerning the wrath of God to appease his listeners.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris