Rapture is false Doctrine

[Godsangel]

 

[Godsangel]

What do yall think

 

[B-A-C]

The word "rapture" isn't in the Bible, it simply means "gather up" or "catch up". Usually what people mean when they say this, is there won't be a "pre-trib" rapture.
But there will certainly be a rapture. Here are the verses that say so.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

To say there is no rapture at all, is the say these verses are wrong. Now the timing of it, is another thing. It will likely happen after the tribulation,or possibly in the middle.
Which is what this guy seems to be saying in effect.

 

[Hekuran]

Teachings on the rapture are a confused mess. I think this teacher did a great job of cutting through the noise and misunderstandings.

The Bible doesn't use the word 'rapture', and we would be better off abandoning the word.

B-A-C is correct to say that when Jesus returns in glory we will all be gathered to him. But we can use the perfectly suitable English word 'gather' when we talk about this.

The notion that God will remove the church from the world has no foundation in the Bible at all.

Rapture teaching is damaging because it leads people into unbiblical hope and expectation. A church that focuses on rapture is more likely to have hope set on escape from the trials of life on earth.

True biblical hope is in Jesus returning to set all wrongs right, reconcile creation to himself, and to reign in glory.

 

[Dave M]

A church that focuses on rapture is more likely to have hope set on escape from the trials of life on earth.

I have herd several preachers that are dogmatic about the pre-trib say there blessed hope is the rapture, it almost sound like they think they are above going through the tribulation, yet all through scripture it says we are refined and purified during difficult times.

 

[Sue D.]

No one is 'above' going through the tribulation.

And, yes, we Are refined during difficult times -- God's Word tells us that born again believers Will suffer hardships of various kinds because we are born again.

The RCC teaches the purgatory 'purifies' a person to get them ready For heaven. So that's a term I don't like to use. No one will be pure in this world. God sees a born again believer through the blood of Christ -- justified -- just as if we'd never sinned'.

purified = to be made pure. Righteous in God's eyes.

Chastisement in the Christian life -- when we disobey -- God chastises those He loves. What that chastisement consists of is up to God.

The difficult times we go through now and have gone through in the past is nothing compared to what will take place during the 7 yr tribulation period. And - again - Why should born again believers feel the wrath of God -- we haven't rejected Him -- non believers have. The non-accepting Jewish population have rejected Him. We feel the wrath of other people now. It's God wrath we don't deserve as born again believers.

Believers go through lots of trials -- and it isn't especially to purify or refine us -- but it Can be so that other people can see how a Christian responds To bad / hard times. And there's nothing Wrong in living in hard times. Lots of people don't consider their 'hard times' to Be 'hard times'. It's simply the times they are living in.

and there Are those who Won't help people during their 'hard times' because they don't want to interfere with them 'learning whatever lesson God has for them to learn'. And sometimes people Do bring on their own hard times because of misuse of income or poor choices. In the process of ministering to them, their attitudes can be seen.

Years ago -- where we used to live -- there was a family living down the street that my sons were getting to know. Seems that their city water had been shut off -- lack of paying their water bill. Well -- I felt sorry for them Until I saw some of the guys of the family sitting around with their beer and cigarettes. Drinking away their paycheck instead of paying their water bill. After a week or so -- their mother drove up and saw that we lived in a nice house. Asked for gas money and whatever. It happened that we put all our money into the house and I didn't have extra money. They lived in a shackey looking house and I felt sorry for those kids. In that small town back those years ago -- we could see poverty and wealth down the block and across the highway.

During difficult times we Do find out what's really important. We do more appreciating.

As far as being pre-trib, which I and lots of others are -- we'll probably be so busy 'living' that we won't be aware Of the timing. But -- as has been shared previously -- Why should born again believers feel / experience God's Wrath.

We ARE to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We Are to becoming more and more Like Jesus Christ.

 

[PloughBoy]

why is it so hard for Christians to understand Biblical terms and words Of the Bible. Why christians don't understand the word "tribulation" in "Biblical syntax" why don't "christians" undersatnd the word "tribulation" in worldly terms and worldly meanings, Why Christians don't understand the "TERM" "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" AND the "Biblical term" Jesus used in the BIBLE, The exact wording He use: There will be "GREAT TRIBULATION" that has never been or be after it happens'

New American Standard 1977
for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

The trouble will be GREATER than THE FLOOD that Destroyed during "NOAH Days" and all the Troubles after it will not be compared to it!

He tells us the type of Trouble. From the days of Pentecost The blood of Christians has run like water. The devil knows who all the True Christians are and He wages war against them, we are called unto a LIFE of "Trials ANd Tribulations" we have been appointed into this life.

If churches main Goal was to Teach Christians how to Read the biblical text and separated them from "Nominals" "Be ye separated" "bad Company corrupts Good morals" Nominal-christians fellowshipping and worshipping with True Christians ,corrupts and taints them. You have nothing in common. "Just a little leaven, Leavens the whole bunch'. Teach the real christians how to read the words of a GOOD Translation" "and Do not give dogs what is holy, do not throw your pearls before swine, if you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

You do not Teach devils how to be good Christains, Church people. Now , here we go, Churches teaching devils how to be good christians, so they can go marry real christians and cause them Great harm, have babies and Mental problems, "a house divide against itself Will Not stand" it will be destroy. You just cannot rebel against GOD, and a Man married another man, a woman marrying another woman, a Christian marrying a Nominal christian" Then Praying to GOD for Him to Change them.,And make it work. Because Prayer Change things. God does not follow your lead. You follow GOD!

And that is what these people are doing to us today, they are teaching people today, materials that the church has taught them and they have step on and fouled under their feet as they see fit and 'Many" are following them and on their way to hell and these so called teachers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are confusing The Faith.Ful. These wells are with out water, always promoting "The Church" The Pastors! more than they do GOD or JESUS CHRIST! and They LOVE the Church more than they do anything else. Just listen to their words. The Anti-Christ is not going to be in the streets, Anti Christ is in the Church"!

And they are here to stay, and grow until Jesus comes back with His "Iron Scepter"! and some of us is going to help Him!

 

[Hekuran]

The difficult times we go through now and have gone through in the past is nothing compared to what will take place during the 7 yr tribulation period.

Hello @Sue D. I'm struggling to see where in the Bible the expectation of a 7 year tribulation period comes from. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Sue D.]

@Hekuran -- Yes, go to Daniel 9: vs 24 - the end of the chapter -- in particular vs 26 & 27 -- a covenant for one week / the last 7 yr period of time of the 70 weeks mentioned in vs 24. // that last 'week' is in the future -- in the middle of that week 3 1/2 years 'he shall bring to an end the sacrifice and offerings' -- the last 3 1/2 yrs. is the Great Tribulation -- when the Antichrist comes to power. Or satan enters who ever is in power at that time and 'turns' on the people.

And during that future 7 yrs is when God is Again dealing with the Jews who have not accepted Him as their promised Messiah. And during which time / going back to Rev 7 / the 144,000 Jews are sealed and go to evangelize and the multitudes
vs 14 these are those who came out of the great tribulation -- the multitudes from all over the world who come to Christ as a result.

And there has to be a pre-trib rapture Because that is the Church / all born again believers / being gathered up by Christ and the marriage super of the Lamb takes place. in heaven.

And, Why should born again believers have to experience the wrath of God? We're the one's who've accepted Him. Everyone is experiencing the wrath of the rest of the world / mankind -- but God's wrath will be very different as we can see from Revelation.

Maybe there are those who feel that surviving the 7 yrs. will earn them better standing with God for eternity. But that would be more of a works' based salvation. Or a person wanting to earn more crowns. Or being willing to die as a martyr during those 7 years will gain them 'standing'. When there have been people dying a martyrs death all through history / past and present. And it will still be happening during those 7 yrs.

So -- 'this' is my 'pointing'.

 

[Dave M]

Maybe there are those who feel that surviving the 7 yrs. will earn them better standing with God for eternity. But that would be more of a works' based salvation.

, you earn rewards in heaven salvation is a gift, big difference, there are promises of rewards all over scripture.

 

[Hekuran]

@Hekuran -- Yes, go to Daniel 9: vs 24 - the end of the chapter -- in particular vs 26 & 27 -- a covenant for one week / the last 7 yr period of time of the 70 weeks mentioned in vs 24. // that last 'week' is in the future -- in the middle of that week 3 1/2 years 'he shall bring to an end the sacrifice and offerings' -- the last 3 1/2 yrs. is the Great Tribulation -- when the Antichrist comes to power. Or satan enters who ever is in power at that time and 'turns' on the people.

And during that future 7 yrs is when God is Again dealing with the Jews who have not accepted Him as their promised Messiah. And during which time / going back to Rev 7 / the 144,000 Jews are sealed and go to evangelize and the multitudes
vs 14 these are those who came out of the great tribulation -- the multitudes from all over the world who come to Christ as a result.

And there has to be a pre-trib rapture Because that is the Church / all born again believers / being gathered up by Christ and the marriage super of the Lamb takes place. in heaven.

And, Why should born again believers have to experience the wrath of God? We're the one's who've accepted Him. Everyone is experiencing the wrath of the rest of the world / mankind -- but God's wrath will be very different as we can see from Revelation.

Maybe there are those who feel that surviving the 7 yrs. will earn them better standing with God for eternity. But that would be more of a works' based salvation. Or a person wanting to earn more crowns. Or being willing to die as a martyr during those 7 years will gain them 'standing'. When there have been people dying a martyrs death all through history / past and present. And it will still be happening during those 7 yrs.

So -- 'this' is my 'pointing'.

Thank you. I've looked at this a bit, and there's not a consensus on the seventy weeks of years timeline. But surely the best fits for 'bringing sacrifice and offerings to and end would be Antiochus Epiphanes desecration of the temple, or the 70ad destruction of the temple? I can't see a good reason to imagine the last week is a future event for us.

And Daniel does not label this period 'tribulation'.

 

[B-A-C]

Hello @Sue D. I'm struggling to see where in the Bible the expectation of a 7 year tribulation period comes from. Can you point me in the right direction?

Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 13:5; There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Rev 12:6; Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:14; But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Dan 7:25; 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 12:7; I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

42 months divided by 12 months = 3 1/2 years
1260 days divided by 365 days = 3 1/2 years
a time + times + half a time = 3 1/2 years.

This is generally divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. The tribulation and the great tribulation.

 

[B-A-C]

Thank you. I've looked at this a bit, and there's not a consensus on the seventy weeks of years timeline. But surely the best fits for 'bringing sacrifice and offerings to and end would be Antiochus Epiphanes desecration of the temple, or the 70ad destruction of the temple? I can't see a good reason to imagine the last week is a future event for us.

There is no record of this in any Jewish archives.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"Immediately after" the tribulation, Jesus will rapture the saints. The rapture hasn't happened yet. So apparently the tribulation hasn't happened either.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

There have been much greater tribulations than the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 ad. (WWII holocaust for example killed 18 times more Jews than the entire population of Jerusalem at that time.)

 

[Hekuran]

See Isaiah 34 for another example of extreme language used to describe impending judgement. Edom was destroyed, but of course the stars didn't literally fall out of the sky


Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
The Lord is angry with all nations;
his wrath is on all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will stink;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat—
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

So it's entirely possible that Jesus is using the same conventions in talking about judgement on the generation that rejected the Son of God. 70ad is within the 'generation' time limit (40 years) that Jesus promised.

The people taken in Matthew 24 are not taken to safety in heaven. They are swept away in judgement.

 

[Sue D.]

There IS a one-week segment left to take place. There Will be a future 7 yrs. of tribulation. And half-way through that -- there will be 'something' taking place. And the last 3 1/2 yrs Will be the Great Tribulation.

 

[Godsangel]

The word "rapture" isn't in the Bible, it simply means "gather up" or "catch up". Usually what people mean when they say this, is there won't be a "pre-trib" rapture.
But there will certainly be a rapture. Here are the verses that say so.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

To say there is no rapture at all, is the say these verses are wrong. Now the timing of it, is another thing. It will likely happen after the tribulation,or possibly in the middle.
Which is what this guy seems to be saying in effect.

Meet the lord in the air? Do you think it's spiritual? That hard to believe.

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- it's spiritual in the sense that a person needs to be a born again believer in order to be amongst that group. And being born again is a spiritual decision.

But it will be a physical event taking place. A real event.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

What do yall think

God said it would be like in the days of Noah....So, in the day of Noah, who was taken and who was left? Yeah the good guys were taken and the bad guys died. Yet this man says the opposite. The bad guys are taken up and the good guys get to stay and whatever....This man needs to take his Romanist teaching and use what the bible says instead. He's a false teacher.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Teachings on the rapture are a confused mess. I think this teacher did a great job of cutting through the noise and misunderstandings.

The Bible doesn't use the word 'rapture', and we would be better off abandoning the word.

B-A-C is correct to say that when Jesus returns in glory we will all be gathered to him. But we can use the perfectly suitable English word 'gather' when we talk about this.

The notion that God will remove the church from the world has no foundation in the Bible at all.

Rapture teaching is damaging because it leads people into unbiblical hope and expectation. A church that focuses on rapture is more likely to have hope set on escape from the trials of life on earth.

True biblical hope is in Jesus returning to set all wrongs right, reconcile creation to himself, and to reign in glory.

The word 'rapture' is in the bible...In Greek. έκσταση ékstasi

 

[B-A-C]

The word 'rapture' is in the bible...In Greek. έκσταση ékstasi

Possibly, can you give a scripture, and translation?