Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Beetow]

In the excerpts below, the Greek word pneuma is translated "breath" instead of spirit.

Matt 5:3 . . Blessed are the poor in breath: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 8:16 . . he cast out the breaths with his word, and healed all that were sick

Matt 10:1 . . And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean breaths, to cast them out

Matt 12:43-45 . . .When an evil breath comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says: I will return to the house I left. When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other breaths more wicked than itself.

John 4:24 . . God is breath, and His worshipers must worship in breath and in truth.

1Thess 5:23 . . I pray God your whole breath and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:23 . . the breaths of righteous men made perfect

» Christ spoke of the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham as if they are sentient beings. Well; seeing as how their bodies didn't accompany them to the afterlife, then I must conclude that all three were there as spirits-- or maybe should I say breaths.
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[Butch5]

You're Trying to suggest that the Holy Spirit and or God Being a Spirit is 'merely' a breath -- doesn't really exist?! So -- following through with That idea -- the Godhead doesn't really exist -- that the Holy Spirit and / or God don't Really exist. -- is that what you're suggesting?!

Now -- if you're trying to suggest that God / Holy Spirit are like the Wind. I'd have to agree with you. The 'wind' is invisible but a person Sees the effect OF the wind -- person can Hear wind blowing -- a sailboat out on the water on a breezy day -- the sails Catch the wind and moves that boat. Depending on the Strength Of the wind -- away that sailboat Goes. It requires a pilot to direct that boat in a particular direction.

The same with a 'breeze' which is a soft 'wind' and can be felt by a person. The effect of a breeze can Also be seen with a pile of leaves -- flowers -- things that a breeze of air picks up.

A breeze or wind picks up pollen and can make an allergic person miserable.

Breathing 'breath' into a person can restore life to them. God breathed a breath a life into mankind and he was Alive physically.

No, I'm not suggesting that.

However, I agree 100% with your analysis here. God is like the wind. That's why he is called a wind or breath. It's for the very reasons listed above. Calling Him spirit is a figure of speech. He's not literally air. However, He's like the wind with the traits you mentioned above. Angel's and demons are also called spirits for the same reason. One can't see them but can see the effects of them.

The problem is that many if not most Christian's don't realize that spirit is a figure of speech. It would be better if translators didn't use the word spirit and let the reader figure out if it's being used as a figure of speech or not.

Here's the problem with using the word spirit. If you ask most people what the English word spirit means they're going to say something akin to a disembodied conscious being. That's the primary meaning of the word. However, the Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. So when English readers see the word spirit in the Bible, their mind doesn't see wind or breath, it sees a disembodied conscious being. And, voila, we have man is a spirit.

Every person has, in them, the breath of life. We know when they die that breath returns to God. Thus we see Jesus saying into the hands I commit my breath.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father,`into Your hands I commit My spirit1.'" Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46 NKJ)

Stephen too when he was stone said, Lord Jesus receive my breath.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:1 ASV)

 

[Beetow]

The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and located in a placed called haides with Abraham and Lazarus within earshot right across from him. (Luke 16:22-23)

Christ is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and located in the same place (Acts 2:25-32)

Now the interesting thing is: when Jesus passed away on the cross, he entrusted his pneuma to God (Luke 23:46) but it's his psuche that's said to be in haides (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31)

From that I think we can safely conclude that the rich man was in haides by means of his psuche too.

Some folk insist that haides means the grave; but if so, then it's fair to conclude that folk dead and buried are able to communicate with each other.
_

 

[Butch5]

In the excerpts below, the Greek word pneuma is translated "breath" instead of spirit.

Matt 5:3 . . Blessed are the poor in breath: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 8:16 . . he cast out the breaths with his word, and healed all that were sick

Matt 10:1 . . And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean breaths, to cast them out

Matt 12:43-45 . . .When an evil breath comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says: I will return to the house I left. When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other breaths more wicked than itself.

John 4:24 . . God is breath, and His worshipers must worship in breath and in truth.

1Thess 5:23 . . I pray God your whole breath and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 12:23 . . the breaths of righteous men made perfect

» Christ spoke of the rich man and Lazarus and Abraham as if they are sentient beings. Well; seeing as how their bodies didn't accompany them to the afterlife, then I must conclude that all three were there as spirits-- or maybe should I say breaths.
_

He spoke of all of the parables as sentient beings.

But their bodies did accompany them.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Lk. 16:22 KJV)

And in hell he lift up his eyes, (Lk. 16:23 KJV)

that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, (Lk. 16:24 KJV)

nd cool my tongue (Lk. 16:24 KJV)

But Abraham said (Lk. 16:25 KJV)

 

[B-A-C]

Of course this only goes so far. It doesn't even make sense in many contexts.

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the [breath] he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Unless you breath you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?

John 4:24; "God is [breath], and those who worship Him must worship in [breath] and truth."

God is breath?

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy [breath], whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Only those who obey God have breath?

 

[Butch5]

The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and located in a placed called haides with Abraham and Lazarus within earshot right across from him. (Luke 16:22-23)

Christ is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and located in the same place (Acts 2:25-32)

Now the interesting thing is: when Jesus passed away on the cross, he entrusted his pneuma to God (Luke 23:46) but it's his psuche that's said to be in haides (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31)

From that I think we can safely conclude that the rich man was in haides by means of his psuche too.

Some folk insist that haides means the grave; but if so, then we must conclude that folk dead and buried are able to communicate with each other.
_

Hades is the grave, that's pretty clear in Scripture. However, the parable doesn't prove that dead people can talk as it's a parable. What's interesting is that the pararble doesn't say that Lazarus was in Hades. It says he was carried to Abraham's bosom. People assume that Abraham's bosom is some place located in or near Hades. However, the Scriptures teach no such thing. As I pointed out, Hagar too was in Abraham's bosom and she was very much alive. The Rich Man, the priesthood died and was and still is in Hades, the grave. Lazarus, Jesus, died and while he was in the grave for a brief time He didn't remain there. Peter said,

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27 KJV)

Jesus was carried to the Father's bosom.

 

[Butch5]

Of course this only goes so far. It doesn't even make sense in many contexts.

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the [breath] he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Unless you breath you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven?

John 4:24; "God is [breath], and those who worship Him must worship in [breath] and truth."

God is breath?

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy [breath], whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Only those who obey God have breath?

They do make sense if we figure out what the figure of speech means.

Unless one is born of water and the breath he cannot see the kingdom. That makes sense. What does it mean born of the breath? Paul said,

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

Christians have in them the Holy breath of God. It's by thins breath that they will be raised or born.


God is breath. What is breath? it's life. God is life. That makes sense. God breathed into the man and the man became a living soul.

John 4:24 is curios. I'm not sure what the figure is here. I've often wondered what Jesus meant here.

 

[Beetow]

Jesus was carried to the Father's bosom.

According to John 20:17, Jesus made no contact with his Father during the three days and three nights he was in the heart of the Earth.

» Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It was laid to rest on the surface in a rock-hewn tomb. So, in order for Christ to be up on the surface of the Earth while simultaneously in its heart, was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

The prophet Jonah is very handy in this connection. For that; see post No.21
_

 

[Butch5]

According to John 20:17, Jesus made no contact with his Father during the three days and three nights he was in the heart of the Earth.

» Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It was laid to rest on the surface in a rock-hewn tomb. So, in order for Christ to be up on the surface of the Earth while simultaneously in its heart, was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

The prophet Jonah is very handy in this connection. For that; see post No.21
_

Maybe you're misunderstanding the phrase, heart of the earth.

 

[Sue D.]

'we' Also need to remember that we're talking about Jesus Christ -- the Son of God -- part of the deity.

He was here as the Son of God -- God is Spirit -- He was here in the form of a man who Could be seen.

No one in this world could die and resurrect on his own. Impossible. Sinners Die in their sins. Hades and then lake of fire and brimstone. Jesus Christ is the Only One who Could ever do that. Jesus' job was to be Here to show "us" to His Father in heaven. To die on that cross, take our sins upon Him - die with them -- and Then to rise Again bodily. Jesus' 'job' was to create The bridge between God and us. He became our mediator.

Where is the 'heart of the earth'? Probably in the 'heart' of the earth.

Where will the lake of fire and brimstone be? Very possibly the same place.

And it Is hard for 'us' to fathom life beyond where we are Now.

John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth". Look at the previous verses. 'The Father is seeking such to worship Him" Sounds like He wants 'us' to acknowledge Him for who He Is. He Is Almighty God -- the Creator of All. Our inner-being to acknowledge Him. Give Him the honor due to Him and Him alone.

 

[Butch5]

According to John 20:17, Jesus made no contact with his Father during the three days and three nights he was in the heart of the Earth.

» Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It was laid to rest on the surface in a rock-hewn tomb. So, in order for Christ to be up on the surface of the Earth while simultaneously in its heart, was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

The prophet Jonah is very handy in this connection. For that; see post No.21
_

You still haven't established that it is possible for man to leave his body.

 

[Butch5]

Today we use the word Earth as a name for this planet we live on. However, that's not how the Bible defines it. The Bible defines earth as the dry land.

And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:10 KJV)

So we could understand that Jesus was in the heart of the dry land. We use a similar term used for the Midwestern US, it's called the Heartland. We call the central part of the US the Heartland. It's in the middle.

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- A lot of times you sound like you're trying to find 'loop holes' in Scripture. Half the time a person doesn't know for sure Which side of the fense you're on. For or Against Bible.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- A lot of times you sound like you're trying to find 'loop holes' in Scripture. Half the time a person doesn't know for sure Which side of the fense you're on. For or Against Bible.

I thought it was pretty clear. No loop holes. I'm just pointing out how the Bible uses the term. It says God called the day land earth. If God calls the dry land earth why would we define the word earth differently?

 

[Sue D.]

Sometimes you like to play games with Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Sometimes you like to play games with Scripture.

I don't play any games with Scripture. It's too important. At the same time I don't accept any games either.

 

[Beetow]

.
Christ spoke of the "heart" many times in the gospels. In every instance, without exception, he was speaking of people's innermost being rather than their outermost, viz; that which is only skin deep. Therefore I think it safe to conclude he was speaking of the innermost parts of the Earth in Matt 12:40 rather than a central location of its surface area, viz: its skin.
_

 

[Butch5]

.
Christ spoke of the "heart" many times in the gospels. In every instance, without exception, he was speaking of people's innermost being rather than their outermost, viz; that which is only skin deep. Therefore I think it safe to conclude he was speaking of the innermost parts of the Earth in Matt 12:40 rather than a central location of its surface area, viz: its skin.
_

Well, you're entitled to that belief. However, when God calls earth the day land I'll believe earth is the dry land.

It's when we impose our own definitions on Scripture that we run into problems. For example imposing the definition of spirit as a disembodied conscious being onto the Greek and Hebrew words that mean wind

 

[Beetow]

FAQ: In standard Bibles; Jesus told one of his fellow prisoners that they would be in paradise the very day of their deaths (Luke 23:43). But three days later he told Mary Magdalena that he had not yet ascended to his Father (John 20:17). How do you reconcile Jesus' statements?

A: Well, of one thing we can be very certain: when Jesus died, he did not go up; quite the opposite direction: he went down. (Matt 12:40, Ps 16:9-10, and Acts 2:25-31)

Paradise is structured such that its elements exist in more than one place. For example: a city park system consists of any number of parks located in any number of places, yet each individual park can still be correctly called a city park.

For another example; the Pacific Crest Trail (a.k.a. PCT) traverses the north/south length of three states-- California, Oregon, and Washington. No matter where trekkers might be located on the trail at any given moment-- whether south at mile No.1 in Campo San Diego, or 2,140 trail-miles to the north at Cascade Locks Oregon --they're all on the very same PCT regardless of which State they happen to be passing thru.

Paradise is sort of like that. There's a section of it in the netherworld (Luke 16:19-31) another in a secret region called the third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) and yet another situated with God. (Rev 2:7)
_

 

[Butch5]

FAQ: In standard Bibles; Jesus told one of his fellow prisoners that they would be in paradise the very day of their deaths (Luke 23:43). But three days later he told Mary Magdalena that he had not yet ascended to his Father (John 20:17). How do you reconcile Jesus' statements?

A: Well, of one thing we can be very certain: when Jesus died, he did not go up; quite the opposite direction: he went down. (Matt 12:40, Ps 16:9-10, and Acts 2:25-31)

Paradise is structured such that its elements exist in more than one place. For example: a city park system consists of any number of parks located in any number of places, yet each individual park can still be correctly called a city park.

For another example; the Pacific Crest Trail (a.k.a. PCT) traverses the north/south length of three states-- California, Oregon, and Washington. No matter where trekkers might be located on the trail at any given moment-- whether south at mile No.1 in Campo San Diego, or 2,140 trail-miles to the north at Cascade Locks Oregon --they're all on the very same PCT regardless of which State they happen to be passing thru.

Paradise is sort of like that. There's a section of it in the netherworld (Luke 16:19-31) another in a secret region called the third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) and yet another situated with God. (Rev 2:7)
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I don't think the Kingdom of God is in the netherworld.