Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Sue D.]

All of God's Word is inspired and given for a reason -- sometimes there are those who make mountains out of a mole hill. Sometimes you take a deep dive when a deep dive isn't really necessary.

The passage is describing the rich man and the beggar -- real people -- the beggar died first and was carried by the angles to Abraham's bosom.
Then the rich man also died and was buried.

The rich man was the one who ended up in Hades -- follow the context - the narrative and find it. He didn't end up in Abraham's bosom with Lazarus -- and there are only two places to end up Until eternity actually begins.

You are the one making the flame important to the passage.

Years ago I was in Precepts Bible study groups. That is inductive Bible study.

And, you're right -- one hour of Bible study a week isn't really enough. We need to be in God's Word every day. But you tend to over-due the studying. And you set yourself up as The authority. As long as a person agrees with You they are fine. Otherwise the Other person isn't really digging deep enough. And That gets a bit Old.

 

[Butch5]

All of God's Word is inspired and given for a reason -- sometimes there are those who make mountains out of a mole hill. Sometimes you take a deep dive when a deep dive isn't really necessary.

The passage is describing the rich man and the beggar -- real people -- the beggar died first and was carried by the angles to Abraham's bosom.
Then the rich man also died and was buried.

The rich man was the one who ended up in Hades -- follow the context - the narrative and find it. He didn't end up in Abraham's bosom with Lazarus -- and there are only two places to end up Until eternity actually begins.

You are the one making the flame important to the passage.

Years ago I was in Precepts Bible study groups. That is inductive Bible study.

And, you're right -- one hour of Bible study a week isn't really enough. We need to be in God's Word every day. But you tend to over-due the studying. And you set yourself up as The authority. As long as a person agrees with You they are fine. Otherwise the Other person isn't really digging deep enough. And That gets a bit Old.

If all of God's word is given for a reason then what do we make of these details? If Jesus gave the details for a reason what is the reason? I would submit that you don't see the flame as important because you're missing the point of the parable.

I never said I was an authority. I think you may feel that way because you're not able to refute what I've said. I didn't say others weren't digging deep. I did ask some questions though. One was if you could point me to Scripture that teaches that Hades is a holding place for the wicked. Since that is a central point of your argument I think we should establish that as fact.

 

[Beetow]

Solomon writes that the dead know nothing.

Christ's teachings trump Solomon's

● Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here.

Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes from the perspective of a man under the sun, i.e. philosophical man who's understanding of life is pretty much moderated by empirical evidence.

To my knowledge, Solomon had never seen the afterlife for himself, viz: he wasn't an expert witness; whereas Christ had seen the afterlife for himself and knew what he was talking about.

● John 3:31-32 . . He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. What He has seen and heard, of that he bears witness.

Christ is also highly recommended, whereas to my knowledge, Solomon isn't.

● Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with the Christ's teachings in the New Testament; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore Solomon and go with the wisdom of "my Son".

● John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_

 

[Beetow]

The Psalmist says that when a man dies his thoughts perish that very day.

The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in Ps 146:3-4 is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw') which has nothing to do with either existence or awareness. The word is very ambiguous and refers to quite a variety of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns, anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas, epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, aspirations, deliberations, and the like.

For the rich man in Jesus' parable at Luke 12:16-20; I would choose ideas, plans, and schemes.

For example: consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center, and in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, and the Haiti earthquake. None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but before the day ended; whatever was on their itinerary lost its importance-- their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant than green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their schemes, their problems, their ambitions, their loves, and their aspirations went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole new reality to cope with.

The fact is: Ps 146:3-4 doesn't mean that people cease to exist when they die, nor do they lose awareness; no, it only means that whatever was on their minds before they passed away is now null and void.

Take for example Michael Jackson. While working on a new world tour, Jackson died in his sleep. As a result; his tour wrapped on the spot.

When my eldest nephew was paroled from prison, he quit drinking, and began going to college with the goal towards becoming a counselor. For 2½ years all went well. His parole officer was happy, and he was on track and getting good grades. My nephew's future looked assured. And then on the morning of Sept 25, 2015, he dropped dead to the floor of natural causes.

My nephew's passing was a terrible disappointment to everybody; but actually we all kind of expected it. He was grossly overweight, had high blood pressure and high cholesterol, rarely exercised, and smoked. But the point is; my nephew's dream ended just as abruptly as flipping a light switch. And all of our hopes for his success ended the same way, viz: our thoughts perished right along with his.

Death is the mortal enemy of human ambitions. It often casts its long shadow when they set about planning their lives. The Scottish poet Robert Burns noticed that life sometimes throws a curve ball that makes all your careful preparations strike out instead of getting you on base.

He was working one day plowing in the field and uprooted a mouse's underground nest who was all set for the oncoming winter. The mouse had picked a fallow field as the site for its winter retreat thinking it would be safe and snug; unmolested during the cold. But it didn't (or maybe we should say it couldn't) know the workings of powers higher than itself-- in this case, farmers and their machinery.

Mousie, you are not alone in proving foresight may be vain.
The best laid schemes of mice and men go often askew,
And leave us naught but grief and pain for promised joy.
_

 

[Butch5]

Christ's teachings trump Solomon's

● Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here.

Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes from the perspective of a man under the sun, i.e. philosophical man who's understanding of life is pretty much moderated by empirical evidence.

To my knowledge, Solomon had never seen the afterlife for himself, viz: he wasn't an expert witness; whereas Christ had seen the afterlife for himself and knew what he was talking about.

● John 3:31-32 . . He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. What He has seen and heard, of that he bears witness.

Christ is also highly recommended, whereas to my knowledge, Solomon isn't.

● Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with the Christ's teachings in the New Testament; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore Solomon and go with the wisdom of "my Son".

● John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_

"Jesus trumps Solomon". That's an interesting take, however, I think it creates problems. Do you believe there are errors in the Scriptures? Jesus said the words he spoke were the Father's. Paul said that all Scripture is God breathed. According to these two passages Both Jesus' and Solomon's words come from the Father. Would you suggest that God contradicts Himself? It would seem to me that if the words of both men come from God then they would have to be in agreement. This leads me to believe that you may be misunderstanding one of them.

I would submit that Solomon is not out of step with the teachings of Christ. He may be out of step with your "understanding" of the teachings of Christ. I would also submit that Christ isn't' teaching in this parable but rather is pronouncing the judgment that was to come. When Jesus gave the parable of the vine dressers was He teaching about how to grow grapes?

And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.
3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.
4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.
5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.
6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way. (Mk. 12:1-12 KJV)

Is this a story about a real man who had a vineyard, who let it out and sent servants to received of the vineyard? Or does the vineyard represent Israel and the husbandmen represent the priesthood that oversaw Israel? Were the servants just men that the vineyard owner had or were they the prophets that God sent to Israel that were killed and abused? Was the owner's son just some guy who would inherit the vineyard? Or, was it Jesus who would inherit the kingdom and Israel? Were the husbandmen just some guys who leased the vineyard and were later destroyed by the owner? Or, were they the priesthood who killed the owner's Son and later saw the destruction of their city and their leadership at the hands of the owner, God? Jesus said the owner would give His vineyard to others. Were they just some men who came to rent it? Or, were they the apostles who God sent out with the New Covenant?

I don't think people think that Jesus is teaching about growing grapes or how to treat people. Even the ones He was talking to realized that the parable was about them. Here's a good example of how the apparent meaning of a parable is not the intended meaning. I think most Christians read this and realize that Jesus was talking about the Scribes and Pharisees. It's pretty clear. What's not clear is why the same people would read the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and think that it's an actual account of what happens when people die.

This is a parable about how the Jewish leadership abused and killed the prophets, then killed Jesus and then faced the judgment of God in AD. 70 when God destroyed the city and the priesthood. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is also a judgment of the priesthood and their destruction. Who was Jesus talking to? The Pharisees. The Rich Man was a Jew. The priesthood was Jewish. The Rich Man had five brothers. Levi, the tribe of the priesthood, had five brothers. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood ruled over Israel as both king and priest and wore purple and fine linen. The Rich Man fared sumptuously. The priesthood fared sumptuously.

What about Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar which means, God help. God helped Jesus. Lazarus had come to the Rich Man. Jesus had come to the Jews. Lazarus was covered in sores. At the cross Jesus was covered in sores. The dogs licked Lazarus' sores. Lazarus was rejected by the Rich Man but accepted by the dogs. The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. Jesus was rejected by the Jews but accepted by the Gentiles. Lazarus was carried away by angels. Jesus was carried away by angles. Lazarus was carried to his father Abraham. Jesus was carried to His father God. Lazarus was embraced by Abraham. Jesus was embraced by God. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham's bosom a place located down in the earth? There is nothing in Scripture to suggest any such thing. Abraham's bosom is mentioned elsewhere in Scripture though. Hagar was in Abraham's bosom, and she was alive, not dead.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in an intimate relationship with Abram. From this we see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in a close relationship with Abraham. Lazarus was in the bosom of his father. Jesus was in the bosom of His father.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

Either the details matter or that is one colossal coincidence.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 21:33; "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
Matt 21:34; "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
Matt 21:35; "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
Matt 21:36; "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
Matt 21:37; "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Matt 21:38; "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Matt 21:39; "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Matt 21:40; "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"
Matt 21:41; They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."
Matt 21:42; Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Matt 21:43; "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
Matt 21:44; "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
Matt 21:45; When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Jesus telling a parable here. It is identified as a parable in verse 33. Jesus quotes couple of verses from the old testament here. Verse 42 is quoting Psalms 118:22-23;
See Isaiah 5:1-7; for verse 33 above.

Verse 43 is the telling verse. Taken away from a group of people, and given to another group of people. People who produce the fruit of it.
Verse 45 says when the Pharisees heard this, they understood He was talking about them.

This parable is about the kingdom of God being given to the Gentiles. (temporarily at least). The Jews were "scattered like dust" for a 1,000 years or so, but they are a nation again now.

Paul uses similar language in Romans 10.

Rom 10:19; But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
Rom 10:20; And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

God will make the Jews jealous by "that which is not a nation" (Gentiles over the whole world) (Deut 32:21; )

But eventually God will accept them in again.

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27; "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28; From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

 

[Butch5]

Matt 21:33; "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
Matt 21:34; "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
Matt 21:35; "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
Matt 21:36; "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
Matt 21:37; "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Matt 21:38; "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Matt 21:39; "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Matt 21:40; "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"
Matt 21:41; They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons."
Matt 21:42; Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Matt 21:43; "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
Matt 21:44; "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
Matt 21:45; When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

Jesus telling a parable here. It is identified as a parable in verse 33. Jesus quotes couple of verses from the old testament here. Verse 42 is quoting Psalms 118:22-23;
See Isaiah 5:1-7; for verse 33 above.

Verse 43 is the telling verse. Taken away from a group of people, and given to another group of people. People who produce the fruit of it.
Verse 45 says when the Pharisees heard this, they understood He was talking about them.

This parable is about the kingdom of God being given to the Gentiles. (temporarily at least). The Jews were "scattered like dust" for a 1,000 years or so, but they are a nation again now.

Paul uses similar language in Romans 10.

Rom 10:19; But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
Rom 10:20; And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

God will make the Jews jealous by "that which is not a nation" (Gentiles over the whole world) (Deut 32:21; )

But eventually God will accept them in again.

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27; "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28; From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

I'm not sure how this pertains to the subject at hand.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not sure how this pertains to the subject at hand.

Jesus said the owner would give His vineyard to others. Were they just some men who came to rent it? Or, were they the apostles who God sent out with the New Covenant?

It was neither, it was the Gentiles.

 

[Butch5]

It was neither, it was the Gentiles.

I disagree, but I still don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand. Was Jesus teaching about growing grapes and how to treat people or was the Parable about the Scribes and Pharisees?

 

[Beetow]

Do you believe there are errors in the Scriptures?

Yes.

Jesus said the words he spoke were the Father's.

Yes.

Paul said that all Scripture is God breathed.

Every now and then I encounter people like yourself on internet forums who've yet to be taught the difference between inspiration and dictation.

Solomon no doubt was inspired to record his personal world view in the book of Ecclesiastes, but it's a mistake to assume his world view quotes the Father word-for-word the way Jesus' teachings do.
_

 

[Sue D.]

It's not a question of Inspiration -- but of how God's Word is Applied.

And considering we're talking different languages -- it's God's Word Is God's Word -- it remains His Word no matter what language -- because the translators do their best to go from one language to another.

 

[Butch5]

Yes.

Yes.

Every now and then I encounter people like yourself on internet forums who've yet to be taught the difference between inspiration and dictation.

Solomon no doubt was inspired to record his personal world view in the book of Ecclesiastes, but it's a mistake to assume his world view quotes the Father word-for-word the way Jesus' teachings do.
_

We don't have to rely on just Solomon's words even though what he said is apparent. We know that the dead know nothing simply by observing them. However, your understanding of Jesus' words also contradicts Paul's teaching. Paul, while speaking of Christian who had died said to the Corinthians that if there is no resurrection they had perished. His statement contradicts what you've claimed that Jesus taught. Your understanding of Lazarus and the Rich Man even contradicts what Jesus taught. Jesus told Martha,

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (Jn. 11:24-25 KJV)

Notice that Jesus said, "though he were dead, yet shall he live". He didn't say, though he were dead yet does he live. No, Jesus says though one may die, He shall . In context it refers to the resurrection. That's when he shall live. He doesn't say anything about anyone being alive while dead. Your understanding also contradicts Psalmist.

17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD. (Ps. 115:17-18 KJV)

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

The prophet Isaiah doesn't see it your way either.

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa. 38:18 KJV)

It seems all of these agree with Solomon. Your position is based on an unproven premise.

It's interesting that you believe there are errors in Scripture. That's an easy way to avoid problem passages.

 

[Beetow]

Solomon's man under the sun feels there is no conscious existence for people beyond the death of their body; whereas Christ taught that one's soul doesn't necessarily perish with the body.

● Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

According to Gen 2:7, the soul is what makes people sentient beings. Christ assures us that part of human existence is able to survive the death of the body; but it's still vulnerable to termination.

● Matt 10:28 . . Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

FAQ: If the soul and the body are destroyed in hell; what's left?

A: The spirit.

Christ's spirit survived the death of his body.

● Luke 23:46 . . Jesus called out with a loud voice: Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.

People's spirit is just as much a component of their human existence as the soul and the body; for example:

● Heb 12:23 . . the spirits of righteous men made perfect
_

 

[Butch5]

Solomon's man under the sun feels there is no conscious existence for people beyond the death of their body; whereas Christ taught that one's soul doesn't necessarily perish with the body.

● Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

According to Gen 2:7, the soul is what makes people sentient beings. Christ assures us that part of human existence is able to survive the death of the body; but it's still vulnerable to termination.

● Matt 10:28 . . Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

FAQ: If the soul and the body are destroyed in hell; what's left?

A: The spirit.

Christ's spirit survived the death of his body.

● Luke 23:46 . . Jesus called out with a loud voice: Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.

People's spirit is just as much a component of their human existence as the soul and the body; for example:

● Heb 12:23 . . the spirits of righteous men made perfect
_

Are you aware that spirit is a figurative use of the Greek and Hebrew words that mean breath.?

 

[Sue D.]

It CAN mean that but a more common useage Is.

 

[B-A-C]

Christ's spirit survived the death of his body.

Of course He still has a body.

Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:40; And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
Luke 24:41; While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
Luke 24:42; They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish;
Luke 24:43; and He took it and ate it before them.

 

[Butch5]

It CAN mean that but a more common useage Is.

It's not that it can, it does.

 

[B-A-C]

pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Total KJV occurrences: 385

 

[Butch5]

pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Total KJV occurrences: 385

Figuratively a spirit. That means when you see the word spirit in Scripture it's a figure of speech. The definition is wind

 

[Sue D.]

You're Trying to suggest that the Holy Spirit and or God Being a Spirit is 'merely' a breath -- doesn't really exist?! So -- following through with That idea -- the Godhead doesn't really exist -- that the Holy Spirit and / or God don't Really exist. -- is that what you're suggesting?!

Now -- if you're trying to suggest that God / Holy Spirit are like the Wind. I'd have to agree with you. The 'wind' is invisible but a person Sees the effect OF the wind -- person can Hear wind blowing -- a sailboat out on the water on a breezy day -- the sails Catch the wind and moves that boat. Depending on the Strength Of the wind -- away that sailboat Goes. It requires a pilot to direct that boat in a particular direction.

The same with a 'breeze' which is a soft 'wind' and can be felt by a person. The effect of a breeze can Also be seen with a pile of leaves -- flowers -- things that a breeze of air picks up.

A breeze or wind picks up pollen and can make an allergic person miserable.

Breathing 'breath' into a person can restore life to them. God breathed a breath a life into mankind and he was Alive physically.