Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Butch5]

As none of us have died, how can we discuss that which we do not know?

We do know. Solomon writes that the dead know nothing. The Psalmist says that when a man dies his thoughts perish that very day. Paul said of the Corinthian Christians, who had died, if there is no resurrection they had perished.

 

[Sue D.]

IF there was no resurrection...Then ....but... Jesus Christ DID resurrect from the dead .......Therefore.......

And, of course, there Was the episode Of the rich man and Lazarus -- they Did have conversation .... they were Not brain-dead.

 

[Butch5]

IF there was no resurrection...Then ....but... Jesus Christ DID resurrect from the dead .......Therefore.......

And, of course, there Was the episode Of the rich man and Lazarus -- they Did have conversation .... they were Not brain-dead.

His point is that the resurrection is the ONLY hope Christians have. There is no hope of being a ghost.

 

[Sue D.]

And neither one of them were ghosts. There are no such things as ghosts. They Were live human beings in eternity. The one is with Jesus Christ and the other is waiting for final judgement before being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

 

[Butch5]

And neither one of them were ghosts. There are no such things as ghosts. They Were live human beings in eternity. The one is with Jesus Christ and the other is waiting for final judgement before being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

You won't find that in the Bible

 

[Beetow]

● Luke 16:27-30 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

. . . Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

Had the rich man's brothers taken the time to study the Old Testament, they would have known the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy obligates God to lower the boom on His people with some pretty severe penalties for breaching it. They're all on file at Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69.

In addition, there's a sort of Ellis Island coming for Moses' people to determine which Jews enter Messiah's kingdom and which don't. (Ezek 20:33-44)

● Luke 16:30. . . No, father Abraham

The rich man knew only too well that it would take a whole lot more than just the Bible to put the fear of God in his brothers. But Abraham didn't budge: he held his ground. That's no surprise because Abraham was a prophet, viz: he was an inspired man. (Gen 20:7)

● Luke 16:31 . . Abraham said unto him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
_

 

[Trevor]

We do know. Solomon writes that the dead know nothing. The Psalmist says that when a man dies his thoughts perish that very day. Paul said of the Corinthian Christians, who had died, if there is no resurrection they had perished.

I take your points Butch, but there are other scriptures; Luke 16:19-31, that speaks of a conversation between a rich man and Abraham regarding Lazarus. it may have been a parable but the story gave credence that there is a chasm of separation, and there is the account of the thief on the cross and Jesus reply to him. There may be an issue regarding the comma but the comma was where it was put. Bless you.

 

[Butch5]

I take your points Butch, but there are other scriptures; Luke 16:19-31, that speaks of a conversation between a rich man and Abraham regarding Lazarus. it may have been a parable but the story gave credence that there is a chasm of separation, and there is the account of the thief on the cross and Jesus reply to him. There may be an issue regarding the comma but the comma was where it was put. Bless you.

Hi Trevor,

I agree. That's why if we really want to know, we need to be open and look at all of the passages without bias. We need to set aside what we believe and look at the passages from as neutral a point as we possibly can. I used to believe the way many are espousing here. However, when looking to study this subject as honestly as possible, I did those things. I set aside what I believed the passages said and basically asked, can this be understood differently? Is my understanding the only understanding? Are there things that I'm missing? Are there things that I don't know that could change the way I understand this. Often we have an understanding about something and then later learn new information that we didnt have before and that changes out understanding of that thing. I had to set aside my presuppositions and consider that they could be wrong. For instance, my presupposition of what a man is. I believed that a man was a soul/spirit that lived on after the body died. I used many of the passages that are being posted to make that case. I had to consider that maybe that was wrong. Maybe that's not what a man is. So, in approaching the Bible with the idea of, what is a man, versus this is what a man is I was able to let the Scriptures tell me what a man is rather than trying to fit the Scriputres to my understanding of what a man is. People don't do it consciously. They just have their understanding of what a man is and they filter the Scriptures through it. It's not just the Scriptures, they filter everything through it. That just how it works. But, when we're actively aware of it we can try to keep it at bay. It's not always easy and I think some people struggle with it. But, when we do it it opens us up to understand things differently than we have in the past.

You see, people have argued here that some of the things I've said don't make sense. But they really do. The reason some things don't seem to make sense to some is that they are hearing my arguments but filtering them through their own beliefs or presuppositions. If they set them aside and filtered my arguments through what I've said rather than what they beleive they'd see that my arguments absolutely make sense. If we have certain words that we both use but understand differently there's going to be confusion.

So, I totally agree with you. That's why we need to do the deep study. People argue back and forth but I don't think many really want to do the deep study. I think a lot of this has to do with emotions. I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea that people are in the grave rather than being in the arms of Jesus. If we don't get past the emotion then we wont get to the deep study.

Going back to the thief. Since the comma can be in either location and be correct, this passage cannot be used to argue that the dead are alive. Since either placement of the comma could be right, either placement could also be wrong. Since we don't know from the grammar which it is, the passage doesnt prove either one.

In the end, the only way we're going to find the answers and end the debate is to do the deep dive. As long as we're going to pull passage from their context and jump from passage to passage trying to prove a point it's not going to happen. We have hundreds of years of history of that and it hasn't worked. But, the answers are there for those who are willing to take the plunge.

 

[Trevor]

Going back to the thief. Since the comma can be in either location and be correct, this passage cannot be used to argue that the dead are alive. Since either placement of the comma could be right, either placement could also be wrong. Since we don't know from the grammar which it is, the passage doesnt prove either one.

We're both seekers of the truth Butch, and bless you I know you're sincere, but so am I. We both have the helper within us and, rather than taking what our brothers, no matter how well meant and even possibly right say, without that leading of our counsellor, we would be less than wise to blindly accept. as for the dreaded comma , I have to believe that our Father wouldn't have let even a comma slip past him when he authorised the Word to be given to feed the elect. I shall pray that the truth of this be revealed to us. bless you

 

[Butch5]

We're both seekers of the truth Butch, and bless you I know you're sincere, but so am I. We both have the helper within us and, rather than taking what our brothers, no matter how well meant and even possibly right say, without that leading of our counsellor, we would be less than wise to blindly accept. as for the dreaded comma , I have to believe that our Father wouldn't have let even a comma slip past him when he authorised the Word to be given to feed the elect. I shall pray that the truth of this be revealed to us. bless you

That takes us back to presuppositions. I don't believe that God is controlling translations. Looking at church history has shown me too many things that make me beleive He's not controlling them. Take the NIV for instance. Why does it differ from the KJV? It's because it's from a different set of manuscripts. I don't see how we get a different set of manuscripts if God is controlling every jot and title of translations. But the comma is really irrelevant, it wasn't in the Greek Text.

I agree that we shouldn't blindly accept what others say. I did that in past, it didnt go to well. That's why now don't accept what people say unless they can explain it and it makes sense.

It's good to pray for guidance. I did for years. Before I became a Christian I prayed that God would help me understand the Bible. That prayer was answered.

 

[Trevor]

That takes us back to presuppositions. I don't believe that God is controlling translations. Looking at church history has shown me too many things that make me beleive He's not controlling them. Take the NIV for instance. Why does it differ from the KJV? It's because it's from a different set of manuscripts. I don't see how we get a different set of manuscripts if God is controlling every jot and title of translations. But the comma is really irrelevant, it wasn't in the Greek Text.

I agree that we shouldn't blindly accept what others say. I did that in past, it didnt go to well. That's why now don't accept what people say unless they can explain it and it makes sense.

It's good to pray for guidance. I did for years. Before I became a Christian I prayed that God would help me understand the Bible. That prayer was answered.

Good for you Butch, pray he'll do the same for me. bless you.

 

[Butch5]

Good for you Butch, pray he'll do the same for me. bless you.

Bless you too my friend.

 

[Beetow]

I've read Luke 16:19-31 all the way thru several times and yet to find where the rich man was curious about how long he could expect to be incarcerated in the fiery sector of Hades.

Well; that's not hard to sleuth. He no doubt encountered lots of people who've been down there since the days of Cain, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Pyramids. Plus, the scuttlebutt would assure him that nobody up to the time of his arrival had ever been released so he shouldn't get his hopes up that he'd be the first.

Something else. The rich man in the story doesn't protest his fate in the fiery sector of Hades. Apparently the man fully understood that he deserved it; and that's not hard to sleuth either.

People down there at the time of the rich man's arrival had access to solid error-free Bible teaching. Abraham wasn't the only prophet across the chasm, all the big guns were over there too; including the man himself: Mr. Moses ben Levi. I know that's true because the Lord said that nobody up to his time had ever been taken to heaven. (John 3:13)

» It's ironic that condemned souls in the fiery sector of Hades might know the Bible better than a good many Christians warming pews, teaching Sunday school, and pounding pulpits.
_

 

[B-A-C]

I've read Luke 16:19-31 all the way thru several times and yet to find where the rich man was curious about how long he could expect to be incarcerated in the fiery sector of Hades.

I agree with most of what you say here, but Hades (hell) itself is a temporary place that will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with everyone who's name isn't in the Book of Life).

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Sue D.]

No one is free from personal bias -- we all come from 'somewhere' -- some lack Of belief in Scripture and some from combinations Of denominational backgrounds. No one is a clean slate.

No two languages are the same -- each language has it's own alphabet -- it's own 'culture' -- the KJV was written during the time when the King's English was spoken /written. There are those who Won't read anything except the KJV. Back Then, the King had to authorize the printing of anything that was To be printed. Since that time -- the English language has developed more. The NKJ is an up-grade to more modern English.

We can / should use common sense in deciding which version of the Bible to read.

God does Not control what we do -- He Does give guidelines and says what are an abomination to Him. He Does know what we'll do -- what 'we' are doing right now. That doesn't mean He's Controlling what we're doing right now.

God Could 'prevent' if He so chose to. He Could 'prevent' people from making, distributing porn. There are laws pertaining To porn. This Is a sinful world and people get into junk that's Bad for them.

The Greek text had to be translated into whatever language a person speaks.

It sounds like you have 'trust' issues. Sometimes a person can pick something apart So thoroughly that it's practically destroyed.

We'd touched on miracles briefly -- a miracle Probably isn't going to logical in nature. A long time ago there was a gentleman who Wanted to be convinced that miracles Do happen. So I shared a couple of miraculous events that I'd known about. He found a reason to discredit everything I presented. There had been another poster in that forum who'd shared what had happened to Her. And that same person chose to Not believe what she'd shared.

I chose to place my faith in the ability for the translators to come to the closest possible accurate translation. There are things in the Greek / Hebrew that have No direct translation into another language. They get it as close as possible for the other people to be able to understand in Their language and culture. Salvation being the key objective.

 

[Butch5]

I agree with most of what you say here, but Hades (hell) itself is a temporary place that will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with everyone who's name isn't in the Book of Life).

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Question for you, Hades will indeed be cast into the lake of fire. If the lake of fire is for the wicked, what is Hades?

 

[Butch5]

I've read Luke 16:19-31 all the way thru several times and yet to find where the rich man was curious about how long he could expect to be incarcerated in the fiery sector of Hades.

Well; that's not hard to sleuth. He no doubt encountered lots of people who've been down there since the days of Cain, the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Pyramids. Plus, the scuttlebutt would assure him that nobody up to the time of his arrival had ever been released so he shouldn't get his hopes up that he'd be the first.

Something else. The rich man in the story doesn't protest his fate in the fiery sector of Hades. Apparently the man fully understood that he deserved it; and that's not hard to sleuth either.

People down there at the time of the rich man's arrival had access to solid error-free Bible teaching. Abraham wasn't the only prophet across the chasm, all the big guns were over there too; including the man himself: Mr. Moses ben Levi. I know that's true because the Lord said that nobody up to his time had ever been taken to heaven. (John 3:13)

» It's ironic that condemned souls in the fiery sector of Hades might know the Bible better than a good many Christians warming pews, teaching Sunday school, and pounding pulpits.
_

You know what's interesting about this passage? It's the only place in all of Scripture that has anyone suffering in fire in Hades. Another interesting point is that the Rich Man is suffering in. the flame. It's singular not plural. It's not flames and it's not spoken of as fire, but rather a single flame. What is, the flame?

 

[Brother-Paul]

No one is free from personal bias -- we all come from 'somewhere' -- some lack Of belief in Scripture and some from combinations Of denominational backgrounds. No one is a clean slate.

Greeting Sue, although I understand what you say, I have to disagree.

When coming to Christ I ended up going to a Church of England place of worship, I was frustrated in no time at all and found it annoying so many didn't understand The Word, I have quoted many examples in the past. When I left there was when I became ill and had to move away, since then I have never attached myself to any denomination, as far as I am concerned I am part of the ekklesia, the only True Church, including saved souls across the world, regardless of sex, age, ability, disability, colour or tongue.

So many people say, I am this denomination, I am that denomination, 'my church' is this or that, come to 'my church', every denomination is influenced by those of that denomination, I am a Catholic, I am a protestant, I am a Methodist, I am a Baptist they say!

I am not tied to any but I am a spiritual stone in the ekklesia, I am like all born again believers a member of the Body of Christ the ekklesia. My last 30 years (almost) of walking with the Lord and Bible Study has come from The Word by the Holy Spirit and reading books Pastor teaching books from many different denominations. They all profess to be Bible believers, the do not all follow The Word, they follow denominational practices. Some do follow The Word, but add their own denominational twist to it, which is not in scripture. So I am not influenced by any denomination, I am influenced by The Word and guided by the Holy Spirit.

Bless you

 

[Sue D.]

Question for you, Hades will indeed be cast into the lake of fire. If the lake of fire is for the wicked, what is Hades?

Hades is the temporary holding place for non believers -- where they are Now.

You comment about the term 'flame' being used. Flames or flame -- how it's used. The 'flame' of the candle burned my finger. The 'flame' on the burner of the gas stove scorched the pot holder. And then the 'flames' in the lake of fire and brimstone" would be used when talking about a large area of fire. The flames of the fire covered the forest. Flames says that something was burning.

Just looked up the Luke passage ch16 -- it speaks of 'flame' -- apparently each person has their own flame of fire.

You can be So Nitpiky with Scripture.

Do you really Have to question every single thing? It gets Really Tiring -- which is why I bow out of this conversation frequently.

 

[Butch5]

Hades is the temporary holding place for non believers -- where they are Now.

You comment about the term 'flame' being used. Flames or flame -- how it's used. The 'flame' of the candle burned my finger. The 'flame' on the burner of the gas stove scorched the pot holder. And then the 'flames' in the lake of fire and brimstone" would be used when talking about a large area of fire. The flames of the fire covered the forest. Flames says that something was burning.

Just looked up the Luke passage ch16 -- it speaks of 'flame' -- apparently each person has their own flame of fire.

You can be So Nitpiky with Scripture.

Do you really Have to question every single thing? It gets Really Tiring -- which is why I bow out of this conversation frequently.

Hi Sue,

Can you point me to Scripture that teaches that Hades is a holding place for the wicked? Also, Jesus didn't say the Rich Man was wicked.

I pointed out that flame is singular because it's important to the passage. These things are what I refereed to in the post to Trevor as the deep dive. These are how you get down to the meat of Scripture. What the flame is, is important to understanding what the passage is talking about. As I said, this is the only passage in all of Scripture that speaks of someone suffering in the flame in Hades. Since this is the only passage it's important to know what that flame is. I find that many people simply read right past all of the details and then say it's about two dead men speaking. Jesus went to the trouble of giving quite a few details, maybe they mean something.

The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen.
The Rich Man had five brothers.
The Rich Man was a Jew.
The Rich Man lived sumptuously.

Lazarus, was poor.
Lazarus was covered in sores.
The dogs licked Lazarus' sores.
Lazarus was carried by angels.
Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom.

If it's really about two dead men having a conversation in the after life, why would it matter what clothes the Rich Man had on back when he had a body? Why would it matter that he had five brothers? Why would it matter that he was a Jew? Why would it matter about how he lived back when he had a body? Why would it matter that Lazarus was poor or that he had sores on the body he left behind? What is the significance of the dogs linking his sores? Why was he carried by angels? Why to Abraham's bosom? Why not to the Father's bosom or to Heaven?

Do you suppose Jesus gave these details for a reason?

I'm sorry if it get tiring for you, but if we want to really know Scriptures that's what it takes. We're not going to really learn the Scriptures deeply by simply going to a one hour bible study once a week.