Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[Bendito]

It's part of Paul's teachings.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1-2

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1 Corinthians 9:20-21

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

".....Makes me free from the law of sin and death." Ok...question Theo......What does "made me free" mean? and....What is "The law of sin and death"? Is it all the rules or...?

 

[Theo102]

What does "made me free" mean?

That depends on the context. If the truth sets you free then you're no longer controlled by the lie.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2

What is "The law of sin and death"? Is it all the rules or...?

It's the law of how sin leads to death. It's related to how Adam and Eve's sin lead to their death. Paul develops this into his doctrine of original sin, but he leaves out the role of the serpent.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezekiel 18:26-27

 

[Bendito]

That depends on the context. If the truth sets you free then you're no longer controlled by the lie.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2


It's the law of how sin leads to death. It's related to how Adam and Eve's sin lead to their death. Paul develops this into his doctrine of original sin, but he leaves out the role of the serpent.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezekiel 18:26-27

So, are you saying that death is a direct result of sin, or that if you sin, God will kill you?

 

[Theo102]

So, are you saying that death is a direct result of sin, or that if you sin, God will kill you?

Neither. Sin isn't a sufficient cause for death, i.e. there is a remedy for sin that doesn't involve death. Of course if no remedy is applied then death becomes inevitable though natural processes.

 

[Bendito]

Neither. Sin isn't a sufficient cause for death, i.e. there is a remedy for sin that doesn't involve death. Of course if no remedy is applied then death becomes inevitable though natural processes.

Hmmm God told Adam not to eat of that tree, and if he did he would die.....So Adam disobeyed, sinned and died.....So then Theo, what caused Adam to die, if not sin?

 

[Theo102]

Hmmm God told Adam not to eat of that tree, and if he did he would die.....So Adam disobeyed, sinned and died.....So then Theo, what caused Adam to die, if not sin?

The contributing factors were the deceit of the serpent, Eve's misplaced trust, and Adam's foolishness.

 

[Bendito]

The contributing factors were the deceit of the serpent, Eve's misplaced trust, and Adam's foolishness.

Yes. But they sinned....and died So, did the serpent kill them?

 

[Theo102]

Yes. But they sinned....and died So, did the serpent kill them?

No, if it was entirely the fault of the serpent then Adam and Eve would not have been punished.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of Elohim; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:13

 

[Bendito]

No, if it was entirely the fault of the serpent then Adam and Eve would not have been punished.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of Elohim; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:13

But surely you know that man cannot sin without he is tempted? James 1:14-15
14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire. 15 Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.

God did not punish Adam and Eve...They were hit by the result of sin...The curse of sin

 

[Theo102]

But surely you know that man cannot sin without he is tempted? James 1:14-15
14 Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire. 15 Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.

James isn't telling the full story.

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

 

[Bendito]

James isn't telling the full story.

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

How do you think Satan tempted Jesus? He used Jesus weakness against Him....Just like James said.

 

[Theo102]

How do you think Satan tempted Jesus? He used Jesus weakness against Him....Just like James said.

The devil tempted the Messiah by attempting to coerce him to be a co-conspirator in his own downfall. James doesn't mention the involvement of any other party.

The role of the devil is apparent in the book of Revelation:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9

 

[Bendito]

The devil tempted the Messiah by attempting to coerce him to be a co-conspirator in his own downfall. James doesn't mention the involvement of any other party.

The role of the devil is apparent in the book of Revelation:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9

I'm sorry Theo....Satans role is not jut to be kicked to the Earth....He HAS an agenda

 

[Theo102]

I'm sorry Theo

Why would you be sorry?

Satans role is not jut to be kicked to the Earth....He HAS an agenda

What do you think the agenda is?

 

[Bendito]

Why would you be sorry?


What do you think the agenda is?

Ah! Now you're testing me....Fun isn't it?
John 10:10 [Full Chapter]

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

 

[Theo102]

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

John 10:10 isn't about the devil, but is referring to the parable of the sheep. Revelation is speaking of the deception of the whole world.

The devil specializes in deception, and Paul deceived the Sanhedrin and Agrippa. When remains is to investigate the extent of the deception.

 

[Bendito]

John 10:10 isn't about the devil, but is referring to the parable of the sheep. Revelation is speaking of the deception of the whole world.

The devil specializes in deception, and Paul deceived the Sanhedrin and Agrippa. When remains is to investigate the extent of the deception.

Yes John 10 is about the sheep....but this line I gave you refers to the enemy. Not the sheep

 

[Theo102]

Yes John 10 is about the sheep....but this line I gave you refers to the enemy. Not the sheep

How is that relevant to the issue of deception?

 

[Sue D.]

Neither. Sin isn't a sufficient cause for death, i.e. there is a remedy for sin that doesn't involve death. Of course if no remedy is applied then death becomes inevitable though natural processes.

How about what Romans is telling us. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
And that the waves of sin is Death.

God warned Adam that he was Not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
And after That , God told Eve not to touch the fruit or she would die. Satan proceeded to lie to her. She didn't listen to that one and only command of God and as a result they did die eventually. Everyone involved was punished.

 

[Bendito]

How is that relevant to the issue of deception?

You know what? I don't know...It was you that mentioned deception....Well ok..He uses deception in his tempting but this is the formula for temptation. Rather, each person is being tempted whenever he is being dragged off and enticed by the bait of his own desire. 15 Then, having conceived, the desire gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death