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I'm not sure what your point is here. Lazarus was raised from the dead, but was not born-again.
Quantrill
Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?
I'm not sure what your point is here. Lazarus was raised from the dead, but was not born-again.
Quantrill
Active
Why? If all my sins have been paid for, then I will stand before God righteous due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness to me. Why is that not a 'hope'?
Quantrill
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings once more Quantrill,
I suppose a 'hope' wont do.
[please understand i am not personally questioning you at all. This is to me a serious and open discussion where we can look honestly at the Scripture we have and together grow in grace - again, nothing personal as it is i who may well need growing more than any other here but we surely can share and eat together to the glory of God in and through His Son]
A bible verse comes to mind
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Corinthians 15:19
which finished this passage from the first letter to the Corinthians
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Bless you ....><>
Active
Yes, these verses and others are those that I speak of when I say the resurrection was required. And, I believe it whole heartedly. But again, my question is why, If the death of the substitute is all that is required, why is the resurrection of Christ necessary?
I would center on (1 Cor. 15:17) "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." I do not ask this in 'doubting God' or the Word of God. I ask because I believe it is so, yet I do not yet have an answer that satisfies me at this time.
Quantrill
Member
What now? I'd probably say that now it's time to address all that smoke. You've ignored everything stated. While death in a general context is the result of sin we don't ascribe sin to everyone who dies from a personal basis of responsibility. Do you think babies murdered in the womb sin? We don't have to wonder about the Tree of Life in Revelation, we are told why it's the and it is not for eternal life. And if you think the Tree of Life in the Garden have Eternal Life then you have just created two sources for eternal life. Do you want to stick with that? And if you propose everyone was saved could you explain exactly what it is...they were saved from?
God bless.
Member
Christ died to stone for sin and arose to...bestow eternal life. This why we are born again:
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
God bless.
Member
Yes, being born again is when we receive eternal life. I'm on a tablet right now so will have to expand on this later but would point out that Christ came that men might have...life. What kind of Life are we told He came to give men?
God bless.
Member
Temporal Justification is the other thread. This thread is about Regeneration. That is why eternal life has come up. As to your disagreement concerning eternal life being obtained in the Old Testament I would suggest you find Scripture to support that view. I would also ask you address the points made. If you aren't going to be serious about the discussion why are you interacting in it?
God bless.
Member
I don't view anyone going to Heaven prior to the Cross. In regards to Enoch we only know he was translated that he should not see death, but I take that as meaning he did not experience death as men do but was translated directly to sheol. The way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest. In regards to Elijah there are several reasons why we wouldn't view his being caught up to the heavens as being caught up to Heaven. First, no man can enter Heavens when their sins have not been redeemed. And no man's sin was redeemed until Christ died. That is why everyone went to sheol/Hades. Secondly, we see a letter from Elijah after his departure:
2 Chronicles 21:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
13 But hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a *******, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:
Another reason is that we see Elijah with Moses on the mount, and I don't see any reason to suppose that God gave Elijah something He didn't give Moses
Another reason might be seen in this statement:
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
While it's true God can make exceptions to general rules it remains that men did not receive eternal life until Christ died, arose, returned to Heaven, and then sent the Promised Spirit all Old Testament Saints died not receiving. We receive life when we receive Christ and become one with Him. This is seen throughout the New Testament. One account makes this clear as it deals with the conversion of an Old Testament Saint:
Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God bless.
Active
Death is the result of sin...period. It doesn't matter how people die now, they die because sin was brought into the world by Adam. Death is the result of sin.
Really? So the Tree of Life in Genesis is not the Tree of Life in Revelation? It's not me that says the Tree of Life in the Garden gives eternal life. That was you.
Silly question. What is anyone saved from? The point was at this stage of the game, all are saved. All have eternal life.
Quantrill
Active
Death is all that was required for the payment of sins...for eternal life with God.
Quantrill
Active
Please. You started both these threads and your 'temporal justification' is your theme...that which you are peddling.
I have addressed eternal life in the Old Testament. Being declared righteous by God means one now has eternal life. Just like with Abraham. (Gen. 15:6)
Oh, I am serious. I can get more serious if you like. But you probably won't.
Quantrill
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings Quantrill,
thinking about it, without resurrection, first of our Lord Jesus, first-born from the dead according to the Bible, [see also first-fruits; OT] we would only be forgiven (ex-sinners?) but still would die and that would be that. So along with all others who did not believe we would die and then what?
Resurrection completes the purpose of forgiveness, if i may put it like that?
Same as the Law or any law, if there is no completion, for example, a penalty or compensation etc, the law only makes a statement.
The law demands a filling, and we know that Jesus Full filled the law perfectly and that no other or any other could.. As well as this, there has to be a purpose for a law. so back to the consideration of the Resurrection, it identifies the purpose and plan and will of God in giving His Son, that we may have Life, eternal Life AND not perish.
A dead man will perish as such and if there be no resurrection we remain dead once dead.
Perhaps the whole discussion of being born from above or born again does actually hinge on the Resurrection?
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My advice to anyone interested in the 'born again' topic is to re-read the passage in John 3 slowly, piece by piece and see that perhaps there is something written there (albeit in our poor English tongue) that is missed because we have become focused on seeing only parts of that dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus that night or evening. The passage is usually used to claim that we must be born again and to support things like, accept Jesus into your heart and you will (instantly) be born again. is it possible that we have become a little hasty wanting our breakfast before it has finished cooking? A thought,
-----------------------------------
Forgive me if my attempt to 'explain' the connection of the sins forgiven by His death and the importance of the resurrection being the outcome is feeble or incorrect or half baked!
Bless you ....><>
Active
Proving Jesus died isn't the answer. But when Jesus demonstrated He also defeated death, that established true hope, by returning from a death state. He was a human being, showing that others meeting God's requirements can also expect to rise from their graves by the power of God like God did for Jesus. If it had been left only that our sins were paid for by His blood shed and body stricken, and the grave yet had Jesus swallowed up in the grave, then without a resurrection the graves would ultimately conquer us even with sins forgiven. We would not benefit at all beyond this flesh life without the resurrection, for what gain (if our sins are forgiven by men God and maybe men) after death, not knowing what happened beyond ourselves?
Resurrection proves there is life to live beyond our present existence. Jesus did it, and that's enough for me to devote this meagerly life to God.
Resurrection proves there is life to live beyond our present existence. Jesus did it, and that's enough for me to devote this meagerly life to God.
Active
That one death is what was required, not Adam's, not Abraham's, not Moses', not Peter's, not ours.
Romans 5:14 (KJV)
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:41-50 (KJV)
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Active
Appreciate your explanation. The Resurrection does complete the purpose of God in our salvation.
I may be looking at it too closely but these are questions I have had. Also, concerning resurrection, the dead are raised again, correct? They get their bodies back again and then are judged and cast into the lake of fire. (John 5:28-29) (Rev. 20:11-15) Our resurrection is to life, and theirs is to damnation. So even though they are still in their sins, they are resurrected, albeit to a different end.
And, as you say, that end is the key. I am sure in (1 Cor. 15:17) Paul is addressing our resurrection in Christ and not resurrection in general. And concerning the resurrection, our resurrection, being the fulfillment or completion of our salvation, I agree. It is as if it must occur. Sort of like Peter said of Christ, (Acts 2:24), "Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." It was impossible that Christ would not rise from the dead even though He bore the Sin of the world. Just as His was impossible not to happen, so is ours.
So, because He bore the Sin of the world, and because He arose, is proof that Sin had no power over Him. Had He not risen, then Sin would have won the day over Him. I am just circling and thinking at the same time here. Like a buzzard circling trying to find where it is located. This I am sure of, the Resurrection is of extreme importance in our lives both in eternity and here and now. For when He arose, we rose with Him. (Rom. 6:4)
Quantrill
Active
Yes. And Christ's death as the Last Adam could only work if it is done 'federally'...One representing the whole. Just as God did with Adams sin. It represents the whole of his race.
Quantrill
Active
Most definitely the new-birth hinges on the Resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3) "...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:23) "Being born again, not of corruptible see, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. "
I do believe the new-birth is found in (John 3) also. But, also, having ones origin right, being born from above, is necessary also. I think these are two different things. Of course those opposed to the doctrine of election will disagree.
My understanding is this: (John 3:3) Unless your origin is right, being born from above, being of God, you cannot see the kingdom of God. You don't have eyes to even see it.
To you who are born from above, (John 3:5), who have your origin right, you cannot enter unless you are born of water, and of the Spirit. Or, being born-again. The new-birth.
As to how our origin is right or wrong I can only conclude that it is already set even prior to our birth into this world. We are all either of God or not of God at the start. The new-birth was promised to the believing and was yet future. (Ezekiel 36:24-27) Today, however, when one come to Christ, he is immediately born-again.
Quantrill
Member
It matters when you ask me how Adam might have died before the Fall. And the simple fact is that he could have died in an accident. This is speculation, of course, but...you are the one asking the question.
Then you turn it to a general sense and act as though you have accomplished something.
I ask you again...what sin does the unborn child in the womb commit?
And I ask you again to give a Scriptural reason why men had eternal life, not simply a reiteration of your opinion.
Why would that be relevant? The focus is whether or not men received eternal life from the Tree of Life in the Garden.
If you would actually post what I say you might not waste so much time with nonsense like this.
It's a question. Where did men receive eternal life?
As to who brought up the Tree of Life...
That is the only source of "life" found in the account outside of the life given to Adam and Eve by God.
Sin...which was not present in the world. So again...what are they saved from?
According to your opinion that has no Scriptural basis.
As opposed to the numerous Scriptural passages given that show that Christ came...that men might have eternal life.
So again, if they had eternal life what was the source? Scripture, please.
God bless.
Member
I agree, but that wasn't the focus, the focus was your confusion as to why the Lord had to be resurrected.
God bless.