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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?


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Member
Please. You started both these threads and your 'temporal justification' is your theme...that which you are peddling.
Again, the topic of discussion in this thread is Regeneration.

And your insults are not necessary. If you cannot contribute to the topic and must resort to tantrums, please find another thread to disrupt.


I have addressed eternal life in the Old Testament.
Voicing an opinion is not "addressing eternal life in the Old Testament."

You can start by addressing the posts that show my own reasoning behind men not having eternal life.


Being declared righteous by God means one now has eternal life. Just like with Abraham. (Gen. 15:6)
And this is stated in Scripture...where?

And it denies that Christ came that men might have eternal life through His death and Resurrection...how?


Oh, I am serious. I can get more serious if you like. But you probably won't.

Quantrill
lol. no, please do. Unless that means you are going to be more insulting than you have already been. THen in that case, no, I wouldn't care for it...

...because this is a serious topic and there is a chance for profitable discussion.


God bless.
 
Member
Were people born again, experienced the Holy Spirit, before Pentecost? Yes. The Holy Spirit is God.
This is a great article that uses scripture to make the point that OT people did experience the Holy Spirit. And also, by faith they were saved.
How Believers Experienced the Spirit Before Pentecost
"Experiencing" the Holy Ghost isn't quite the same as receiving the Promised Spirit:


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit and the Spirit being with men and being eternally indwelt by the Spirit and being baptized into Christ. We can see in these passages that what we receive today in salvation was not received by the Old Testament Saints. Christ had to come, and then return to Heaven in order for the Comforter-Who is the Promised Spirit-to come. And when He came, He was in us forever as opposed to His being with men and even leaving men in the Old Testament.


God bless.
 
Member
well David is going to rule with Jesus in the 1,000 so I am sure he has eternal life, and is from the OT.

everyone has eternal life its just a matter of where are you going to spend it
Sorry, Dave, I missed this.

Yes, David has eternal life now, because he has been redeemed by Christ. However, by equating Eternal Life with the fact that all spirits will exist eternally is a grave error. Demons will also exist forever in Hell but we do not view them as having eternal life. Eternal Life isn't a matter of an unending existence, it is a matter of being in Christ and partaking of His life, which is eternal. Only those who are in Christ have eternal life. THose who are in hades that died outside of God's will do not have life, they are dead. And I would repeat what I said earlier in regards to all men being dead prior to Christ coming and making eternal life possible:


In the other thread, hopefully, we can come to a conclusion concerning whether men had eternal life in the Old Testament as we look at those issues surrounding New Birth. I hold to the view that eternal life began with Christ primarily because that is what Christ states He came to bestow, and as we look at the New Testament we begin to see this made clear. For example:


John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


The "life" He speaks of is associated with the True/Living Bread (Himself) coming down from HEaven. We wouldn't impose this into the timeframe of the Wilderness and would have to exclude men receiving this bread because manna was the provision given. Manna sustained physical life whereas the True/Living Bread sustains Eternal Life, hence the many statements about men not dying. And this contrasted with the fathers being dead, or in other words...they did not receive this life at that time.

We see it in numerous familiar texts:


John 5:24 King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
If you see error in the above, or think it is weak in some way in supporting the view that Christ taught no man can have Eternal Life apart from believing in HIm, please quote what that is and explain why.


God bless.
 
Member
Death is all that was required for the payment of sins...for eternal life with God.

Quantrill
Not sure if I have already addressed this or not, my outing yesterday and the intervening posts on a tablet (I should know better) leave me reviewing the thread and perhaps going over a few of them again (because some of them did receive responses from the tablet which were limited).

Again, Eternal Life is the result of men being immersed into God in Eternal Union. This is accomplished when Christ baptizes men into Himself. This is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is thought and taught my most as a "subsequent empowerment of the believer," as opposed to the Biblical Definition given in Acts 11:13-18 (not to mention Christ and the Apostles' teachings), which is that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment of salvation itself.

Note the two Baptisms of Christ:


Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


The gathering of the wheat is a reference to Eternal Salvation. The burning up of the chaff (unbelievers) with unquenchable fire is a reference to Eternal Damnation. The primary issue I would point out is...

...it isn't happening yet.

The Lord's death wasn't all that was required for Eternal Life with God, though I would ask at this point that if you feel that it is...why would you ascribe Eternal Life to men prior to this taking place? We can see in the Gospel of John that it will not be until Christ returns to Heaven (John 14:1-3) that He will send the Promised Spirit, and it is when men receive Him (at which time they are indwelt by the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, John 14:15-23) that they receive Eternal Life:


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Romans 8:11 King James Version (KJV)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Those that believe on Christ will have, internally, rivers of living waters flowing out of them. This is, in my own view, a reference not just to the eternal life we have, but also refers to the Word of God (which flows out of us) which is twice credited as relevant to Regeneration:


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Both of which are references to the Gospel, which I will again mention was a Mystery, truth not revealed to men in past Ages or generations, but is now revealed to men by the Holy Ghost...sent down from Heaven:


1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


God bless.
 
Member
Most definitely the new-birth hinges on the Resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3) "...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:23) "Being born again, not of corruptible see, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. "
The Resurrection is one part of elements that cannot be divorced from each other. Regeneration is stated by Scripture to be the result of Christ's death, Resurrection, the Gospel (which is the Death, Burial and Resurrection), and the Indwelling of God.

Now the one thing that I would like to know is how exactly can one have Eternal Life yet not be eternally indwelt by God (which did not begin until Pentecost), not be redeemed from the Law, and not be born again?


I do believe the new-birth is found in (John 3) also. But, also, having ones origin right, being born from above, is necessary also. I think these are two different things.
Being "born from above" is a euphemism for being born of God. As is being "born again, and "born of the Spirit." Being born of water is a reference to the washing of water by the Word of God, which is itself another element of Regeneration, being born again by the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23). There are not "two different things" found in John 3, the Lord is teaching that men must be born of God, and how that will be accomplished, starting with the fact that the Lord must die:


John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Regeneration correlates to men receiving Eternal Life through Christ.


Of course those opposed to the doctrine of election will disagree.
Election is an irrelevant issue to when men began to be baptized into Christ through the adoption of sons. While God knew the role of the registry of the Eternal State, that doesn't mean men were saved prior to their actual salvation. The Elect must still be born and then reconciled to God through the Atonement. All men are born separated from God. That is Man's problem. He sins because of his separation from God, rather than he is separated because he sins. Separated because of Adam's sin, yes, but not because of personal sin. I would suggest that the babe in the womb that is murdered is not held accountable for the sins of others.


My understanding is this: (John 3:3) Unless your origin is right, being born from above, being of God, you cannot see the kingdom of God. You don't have eyes to even see it.
To you who are born from above, (John 3:5), who have your origin right, you cannot enter unless you are born of water, and of the Spirit. Or, being born-again. The new-birth.

As to how our origin is right or wrong I can only conclude that it is already set even prior to our birth into this world. We are all either of God or not of God at the start. The new-birth was promised to the believing and was yet future. (Ezekiel 36:24-27) Today, however, when one come to Christ, he is immediately born-again.

Quantrill
I agree, unless one is born again they do not have eternal life. And that because they are not in Christ:

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Ephesians 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


God bless.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings dear brothers and most learned gentlemen on this thread

Please can you all post carefully and in grace and love, remembering to back what you say with Bible verses.

Reading through some replies they appear somewhat snappy and even cocky

The moderators at Talk Jesus work as a team and this thread is being closely moderated.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain

Philippians 2:14-16
 
Member
Sorry, Chad, but I see the same error many make in regards to how we are saved, and as to how the Old Testament Saints were saved, which is that they were saved by faith. The fact is that they all died in faith...not receiving the promises (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). And you mention one of those promises:

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).


You are correct that the Gospel is not exclusive to the New Testament, but you err in ascribing it as revealed (or at least implying that it was). The Gospel was a Mystery in those Ages (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). We see that what was told to Abraham was that all nations of the earth would be blessed, however...that doesn't equate to a knowledge that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh for the express purpose of dying in the stead of the sinner and taking upon Himself their penalty for sin that they might have eternal life.

The means of salvation for the Old Testament Saint was exactly the same means for salvation in this Age: the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). Why that distinction is important is that if we teach men are saved by faith and forget that there is no faith apart from God's intervention in the lives of men we risk turning salvation into a works-based effort.

No man is saved by any effort he puts forth. Paul makes it clear that not even the faith is of the believer:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Salvation is a gift, and if someone has to do something for something it cannot be said to be given:


Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


Now, here is what I would suggest for consideration: the Old Testament Saint was saved by grace through faith like as we, but had not received the promises God made. It is no different than the fact that we have not yet received the promise of the redemption of our bodies (glorification), but it makes us no less saved than it made the Old Testament Saint saved because they had not yet been Regenerated. Their eternal destinies were secured during their lifetimes because they responded to God's grace with belief, faith, and...works. But before they could do that they did not seek after God, they had no inherent ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and they were in desperate need of the same thing we all need from birth...to be reconciled to God (and I just posted several verses that show no man was reconciled before the Work of Christ was accomplished if you are interested).


God bless.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
Sorry, Chad, but I see the same error many make in regards to how we are saved, and as to how the Old Testament Saints were saved, which is that they were saved by faith. The fact is that they all died in faith...not receiving the promises (Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40). And you mention one of those promises:

The gospel is not an exclusively New Testament message. The Old Testament contained it as well: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith” (Galatians 3:8-9, quoting Genesis 12:3).

You are correct that the Gospel is not exclusive to the New Testament, but you err in ascribing it as revealed (or at least implying that it was). The Gospel was a Mystery in those Ages (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27; 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). We see that what was told to Abraham was that all nations of the earth would be blessed, however...that doesn't equate to a knowledge that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh for the express purpose of dying in the stead of the sinner and taking upon Himself their penalty for sin that they might have eternal life.

The means of salvation for the Old Testament Saint was exactly the same means for salvation in this Age: the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). Why that distinction is important is that if we teach men are saved by faith and forget that there is no faith apart from God's intervention in the lives of men we risk turning salvation into a works-based effort.

No man is saved by any effort he puts forth. Paul makes it clear that not even the faith is of the believer:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Salvation is a gift, and if someone has to do something for something it cannot be said to be given:


Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


Now, here is what I would suggest for consideration: the Old Testament Saint was saved by grace through faith like as we, but had not received the promises God made. It is no different than the fact that we have not yet received the promise of the redemption of our bodies (glorification), but it makes us no less saved than it made the Old Testament Saint saved because they had not yet been Regenerated. Their eternal destinies were secured during their lifetimes because they responded to God's grace with belief, faith, and...works. But before they could do that they did not seek after God, they had no inherent ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and they were in desperate need of the same thing we all need from birth...to be reconciled to God (and I just posted several verses that show no man was reconciled before the Work of Christ was accomplished if you are interested).


God bless.
If you're responding to that article, respond there in the proper thread.
 
Member
If you're responding to that article, respond there in the proper thread.
lol.

You mean it's okay to come into a thread and post another thread, but not okay to address what you posted in this thread?

Again, I am sorry that we have differing views on your OP, but I can only state what I see to be a basic truth that many have gotten away from.

And please feel free to respond to my response in this thread. I wish you the best on your own thread, and hope you get some great discussion from it.


God bless.
 
Member
Okay, I am going to let this thread go until I can get some direct responses to the points that have been raised. My apologies to those who took offense at the doctrine, that is never the intent, but I would suggest giving at least a little consideration to the points raised, particularly in regards to the correlation of Eternal Life, REgeneration, and the coming of the Promised Spirit.

God bless.
 
Active
It matters when you ask me how Adam might have died before the Fall. And the simple fact is that he could have died in an accident. This is speculation, of course, but...you are the one asking the question.

Then you turn it to a general sense and act as though you have accomplished something.

I ask you again...what sin does the unborn child in the womb commit?

And I ask you again to give a Scriptural reason why men had eternal life, not simply a reiteration of your opinion.




Why would that be relevant? The focus is whether or not men received eternal life from the Tree of Life in the Garden.

If you would actually post what I say you might not waste so much time with nonsense like this.




It's a question. Where did men receive eternal life?





That is the only source of "life" found in the account outside of the life given to Adam and Eve by God.




Sin...which was not present in the world. So again...what are they saved from?




According to your opinion that has no Scriptural basis.

As opposed to the numerous Scriptural passages given that show that Christ came...that men might have eternal life.

So again, if they had eternal life what was the source? Scripture, please.


God bless.
It is no speculation that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die. There was no death until Adam would eat of the fruit. There was no falling from a tree and dying. Death came as the result of sin. That is not speculation. The unborn child is guilty due to Adams sin. Adam and Eve had eternal life because they had not yet sinned. There was no death until they sinned. (Rom. 5:12)

Concerning the Tree of Life, you brought it up as proof that Adam and Eve did not have eternal life. See your post #(11). But, that is disproved with the Tree of Life being present in the New Earth. (Rev. 22:2) And all present at that time are the people of God who will live forever. (Rev. 21:24-22:5)

Of course Christ came that men might have eternal life. Because man was lost and did not have eternal life. But when man believes, as God says he must to be declared righteous by Him, then he has eternal life. It doesn't matter if it's man in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Eternal life is the end result of placing faith in God or Christ. God is the source of eternal life. Our faith is the same faith that Abraham had. (Rom. 4:16) (Rom. 4:23-24) Same faith. Same results. Eternal life.

Quantrill
 
Active
It is no speculation that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die. There was no death until Adam would eat of the fruit. There was no falling from a tree and dying. Death came as the result of sin. That is not speculation. The unborn child is guilty due to Adams sin. Adam and Eve had eternal life because they had not yet sinned. There was no death until they sinned. (Rom. 5:12)

Concerning the Tree of Life, you brought it up as proof that Adam and Eve did not have eternal life. See your post #(11). But, that is disproved with the Tree of Life being present in the New Earth. (Rev. 22:2) And all present at that time are the people of God who will live forever. (Rev. 21:24-22:5)

Of course Christ came that men might have eternal life. Because man was lost and did not have eternal life. But when man believes, as God says he must to be declared righteous by Him, then he has eternal life. It doesn't matter if it's man in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Eternal life is the end result of placing faith in God or Christ. God is the source of eternal life. Our faith is the same faith that Abraham had. (Rom. 4:16) (Rom. 4:23-24) Same faith. Same results. Eternal life.

Quantrill
If what Abraham believed was eternally acceptable to God, why would it be necessary for Father God to be satisfied with a delayed Jesus' offering of Himself for sin of us all who believe?
 
Active
It is no speculation that God told Adam that in the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die. There was no death until Adam would eat of the fruit. There was no falling from a tree and dying. Death came as the result of sin. That is not speculation. The unborn child is guilty due to Adams sin. Adam and Eve had eternal life because they had not yet sinned. There was no death until they sinned. (Rom. 5:12)

Concerning the Tree of Life, you brought it up as proof that Adam and Eve did not have eternal life. See your post #(11). But, that is disproved with the Tree of Life being present in the New Earth. (Rev. 22:2) And all present at that time are the people of God who will live forever. (Rev. 21:24-22:5)

Of course Christ came that men might have eternal life. Because man was lost and did not have eternal life. But when man believes, as God says he must to be declared righteous by Him, then he has eternal life. It doesn't matter if it's man in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Eternal life is the end result of placing faith in God or Christ. God is the source of eternal life. Our faith is the same faith that Abraham had. (Rom. 4:16) (Rom. 4:23-24) Same faith. Same results. Eternal life.

Quantrill
Yet, it required the blood and flesh of Jesus to consummate eternal life for man.
 
Active
If what Abraham believed was eternally acceptable to God, why would it be necessary for Father God to be satisfied with a delayed Jesus' offering of Himself for sin of us all who believe?
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. What are you calling a 'delayed Jesus offering'? Are you saying Christ's offering on the cross was delayed? Are you asking why didn't Christ come immediately after Adam sinned?

Quantrill
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Yet it required faith on man's part to implement the said salvation. Your point being?

Quantrill

Greetings,

sorry for butting in as i so often do, but a thought came to mind regarding this, sort of.

We talk about faith but I wonder,
what is it we have faith in or about [or who] and why AND for what reason is that acceptable to God?

I know it is a little out there in relation to what you posted Quantrill but somehow it is connected and perhaps might give a clearer understanding of all that we all so often discuss here, often with differing views and often in agreement, too.

What do you [we] see when we look at John 3:16?
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which part of it do we focus the faith 'decision' on? [ as in place/do/live our faith in?]

there is a beautifull [to me] little Hebrew word that sort of sums it up [i think]

chesed חֶסֶד

and a verse that helps me understand it....

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:45


Bless you ....><>

[CENTER]Love is For Giving
God is Love[/CENTER]
 
Last edited:
Active
Greetings,

sorry for butting in as i so often do, but a thought came to mind regarding this, sort of.

We talk about faith but I wonder,
what is it we have faith in or about [or who] and why AND for what reason is that acceptable to God?

I know it is a little out there in relation to what you posted Quantrill but somehow it is connected and perhaps might give a clearer understanding of all that we all so often discuss here, often with differing views and often in agreement, too.

What do you [we] see when we look at John 3:16?
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which part of it do we focus the faith 'decision' on? [ as in place/do/live our faith in?]

there is a beautifull [to me] little Hebrew word that sort of sums it up [i think]

chesed חֶסֶד

and a verse that helps me understand it....

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:45


Bless you ....><>

[CENTER]Love is For Giving
God is Love[/CENTER]
In understanding our faith there is much explanation that we can give, as to it's source, it's direction, it's results. But, in it's accomplishing that which God wants it to...in it's effectiveness in our lives, it is quite simple. The believer believes. The believer believes (John 3:16) because God has said it. The believer believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God because God has sent Him. This is acceptable to God because He is the One who made faith the only way to come to Him. And in turn He made it so that faith comes from Him and not the individual. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8)

So often non-believers, and sometimes believers, mock this 'faith'. They call it 'easy believeism'. Well, they are right to a degree. It is easy for the one who has been given faith to believe. Yet it is impossible for the one who hasn't been given the faith to believe. In other words faith is not just saying a certain set of words. It is really believing it. And it is impossible to fake it before God. If I am persecuted for my faith, and asked to recant under torture, who knows, maybe I will. Maybe I will sign some piece of paper recanting my faith in Christ. But that would just make me a liar. I can no more quit believing then the non-believer can believe.

In witnessing on the job for years, I had various methods I used when talking to unbelievers. One of my last methods was what I call the 'shotgun approach'. I fire point blank, both barrels out of the blue. I would wait till we were having a conversation about something totally disconnected from God or religion. Could be football, or the weather, etc. Then I would turn to them and ask, 'what do you think about Jesus Christ?' The expression on their face would be all you needed to know the answer as to whether they believed or not.

May not have answered everything, but something to consider.

Quantrill
 
Member
"Experiencing" the Holy Ghost isn't quite the same as receiving the Promised Spirit:


Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 14:15-18 King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 16:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


There is a difference between being filled with the Spirit and the Spirit being with men and being eternally indwelt by the Spirit and being baptized into Christ. We can see in these passages that what we receive today in salvation was not received by the Old Testament Saints. Christ had to come, and then return to Heaven in order for the Comforter-Who is the Promised Spirit-to come. And when He came, He was in us forever as opposed to His being with men and even leaving men in the Old Testament.


God bless.
There's no difference save in language used. The Holy Spirit made himself known in the OT and worked within certain of the prophets, warriors, etc...Ezekiel for instance in Ezekiel 2. Gideon, and others.
 

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