An hour then your thoughts

[Curtis]

the insinuation you making. You are interpreting this verse 100% in a Calvinistic sense?

Here is my interpretation.......

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

How hard is this to understand?

 

[Sue D.]

If God is '''the''' omnipotent and omniscient Creator of all. Which you quite literally imply you believe in quoting John 6:64 'as is', then I quite literally have absolutely no idea how you arrive at the statement ''and then became evil on it's own''.

I am not fighting with you Curtis. I know you mean well. I just want to hear your rational explanation on how you arrive at the belief that God is not evil, with your interpretation of scripture. I can't and I do believe I have a strong argument to present against your Calvinistic 'as is' interpretation of John 6:64.

I do no believe you can present a rational rebuttal. If there is one, I am truly dying to hear it.

And why do You bring Calvinism into the discussion.

It bothers me greatly -- the 'if' comment about God being the omnipotent and omniscient Creator of all. How about a "Since" or "Because' comment --besides you neglected to include 'omnipresent.'.

How about asking about a person's 'explanation' of....... instead of using the phrase "rational explanation' or the use of plain 'rebuttal' rather than including the word 'rational' with it. Because the term 'rational' suggests that someone Might come up with an Irrational explanation / rebuttal. That would be setting up Yourself as having The 'rational' explanation or rebuttal. And that, in turn, would be suggesting that some of us are more intelligent than others here on Forum.

Way back in Genesis -- when God was creating the universe -- He observed the results of each day's creation and said that it was good and with man -- that it was Very good. Evil didn't get into the picture until the serpant got into the picture and deceived Adam and then Eve. They believed satan's lies over God's Word the Truth. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is what they ate from. And Immediately their 'eyes of innocence' were open. They immediately 'knew' that they had sinned -- they never would have known they were naked. God had known them in their 'raw' selves. But now -- Adam and Eve Also saw themselves and were embarrassed. Apparently we human beings were originally meant to live totally exposed to God.
But I'm getting off track. They had a choice to make -- at some point while in the perfect environment, they were given a choice of obeying God or not. Eve thought it would be neat to have all the knowledge just like God did / does. They were never meant to have it. And having eaten it -- neither Adam or Eve became equal to God. And being Like God does not equate to being Equal to God.

And then -- because they Now as a result --had the knowledge of both good and evil -- they Had to be protected from eating of the tree of life. Because Then they -- rest of mankind would be living forever with the knowledge of Evil as well.

And God -- in His mercy -- provided the cross of calvary / Jesus Christ , the Son of God, dying and bodily resurrection For us -- bridging the gap between His Holiness and our sinfulness.

 

[Sue D.]

Respecting her privacy is being a good husband.

Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains.

If He is those qualities 100% then why do you espouse a wicked God and propose He does not limit His omniscience when it points to wickedness?

Please explain.

You are not dealing with the question. I asked you to explain why you said what you said.

Glad we finally agree on something. God limited His omnipotence to do what is good. Reconcile mankind who wants to be with Him, with Him.

That is not answering the question. Yes, that is a fact because scripture says it. But it is not a fact we need to interrogate / have an explanation for the unsaved on, as it does not speak to God's character. Omniscience and foreknowledge does.

This is a Calvinistic view of the gospel. I though you said you were not a Calvinist?

This is from your post #150

"Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains."

Do you Really believe that?!

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- I don't recall ever saying I'm a Calvinist -- You've referred to me as being one. It does appear that both Curtis and myself have some beliefs that coinside with Calvinism -- but that doesn't mean we Are such.

 

[Sue D.]

Lets look closely at the first part of John 6:64 'Jesus knows from the beginning 'who they were that believed not''. If we read that ''as is'' with no scripture shining light on it, it is 100% 5 point Calvinistic. God knows from birth who will be in heaven and from birth who will be in hell.

So the key word to be interrogated is ''beginning''.

The Greek word there is ''ἀρχῆς''. This appears as well in John 8:44 when it says ''satan has been a murderer from the beginning'.

Has satan been a murderer from the beginning?

You have also not dealt with the verse I presented. Luke 6:13 Jesus chose twelve disciples to be apostles. There was a time when Jesus chose twelve disciples to be apostles. Just as there was a time when the devil was not a murderer. Luke 6:13 does not say Jesus chose eleven to be apostles and one to betray Him. Was Jesus then being dishonest / lying to all in Luke 6:13?

If we add John 6:64 together with Luke 6:13, Acts 10:34, Psalm 136:1, John 3:16 we arrive at the correct conclusion.

Quoting John 6:64 in isolation as you have is almost as bad as quoting Rom 9:13 Esau I have hated, in isolation. Do you believe God hated Esau for no reason? Do you believe as Calvinists do that God can make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21?

We cannot quote these contentious scriptures in isolation and assume the reader interprets it as God being good. This is my chief gripe with Calvinists. No rational thinking person on this planet will grasp God being good from these scriptures quoted in isolation.

Now really -- King J. -- is your last sentence really very sociable. "This is my chief gripe with Calvinists -- No rational thinking person on this planet......."

 

[KingJ]

Yep...that's right. Every one knows that!

You are making one liner statements and not explaining yourself. So, you are saying everyone cherry picks scripture and is ok with completely miss-representing God?

 

[KingJ]

This why you have no clue how this could be unless you believed God knows all things which you don't, so it will always be a mystery to you. The Lord knows every move, every decision, every thought you will have before he created the world, yet you have complete free will to think, and do what ever you want.

I believe God knows all there is to know. Our decisions from free will are not something that can be known, because I believe in ''True free will''. You and Sue don't. So it is difficult to understand why you use that word. I feel you need to use ''clown / puppet / pet''.

Free will = the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

How can this be if we are made a vessel unto dishonor? To have free will requires God to make us vessels unto ''honor or dishonor''. That requires God to limit His omniscience / not know something He can know. Just as He can create something evil, does not mean He does. Likewise knowing something when knowing it can easily be proven to be evil.

"Do I believe as Calvinists do that God can make a vessel unto dishonor"

God can make anything he wants since he is God, the creator! Does God make men vessels unto dishonor? Nope!!!

You say 'nope'. Why?

I don't understand why you say that. You believe God is all knowing. You believe God is the creator of all. Yet you say 'nope'?

He did not know that when He made every atom that constitutes Judas, that they in a living state react in manner that would result in Judas betraying Jesus?

But if he did, who are you to condemn him if he does? Would the one created say unto his creator why have you made me this way?

As per Gen 3:22 God has given us the ability to know good and evil. God forbid we not use our God given brains to aid us in deciding who we want to serve.

Nobody wants to serve an evil God. A partial God is an evil God.

If God made a vessel unto dishonor and there was no eternal torment in hell, then yes, we can defend God. If God made a vessel unto dishonor and universalism was true, then yes, we can defend God. If God made a vessel unto dishonor and annihilation of the wicked was true, then yes, we can defend God.

In these instances we could defend God as being neutral. Not evil. No real evidence of good either. The bible says God is exceedingly good. So we need to work backwards on our understanding of creating vessels unto dishonor.

 

[KingJ]

And why do You bring Calvinism into the discussion.

It bothers me greatly -- the 'if' comment about God being the omnipotent and omniscient Creator of all. How about a "Since" or "Because' comment --besides you neglected to include 'omnipresent.'.

How about asking about a person's 'explanation' of....... instead of using the phrase "rational explanation' or the use of plain 'rebuttal' rather than including the word 'rational' with it. Because the term 'rational' suggests that someone Might come up with an Irrational explanation / rebuttal. That would be setting up Yourself as having The 'rational' explanation or rebuttal. And that, in turn, would be suggesting that some of us are more intelligent than others here on Forum.

Way back in Genesis -- when God was creating the universe -- He observed the results of each day's creation and said that it was good and with man -- that it was Very good. Evil didn't get into the picture until the serpant got into the picture and deceived Adam and then Eve. They believed satan's lies over God's Word the Truth. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is what they ate from. And Immediately their 'eyes of innocence' were open. They immediately 'knew' that they had sinned -- they never would have known they were naked. God had known them in their 'raw' selves. But now -- Adam and Eve Also saw themselves and were embarrassed. Apparently we human beings were originally meant to live totally exposed to God.
But I'm getting off track. They had a choice to make -- at some point while in the perfect environment, they were given a choice of obeying God or not. Eve thought it would be neat to have all the knowledge just like God did / does. They were never meant to have it. And having eaten it -- neither Adam or Eve became equal to God. And being Like God does not equate to being Equal to God.

And then -- because they Now as a result --had the knowledge of both good and evil -- they Had to be protected from eating of the tree of life. Because Then they -- rest of mankind would be living forever with the knowledge of Evil as well.

And God -- in His mercy -- provided the cross of calvary / Jesus Christ , the Son of God, dying and bodily resurrection For us -- bridging the gap between His Holiness and our sinfulness.

Sue, you are not reading properly and making completely unrelated points. Your accusations don't hold water either, just evidence of not reading properly. The discussion is hard enough when on track. Please apply some more effort into your replies.

 

[KingJ]

Here is my interpretation.......

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

How hard is this to understand?

Did you read my post # 216?

What is easy to understand is the fact that you are completely miss-representing God. Which is a shame since the rest of scripture (and so, so, so, much of it) speaks to His effort / unbelievable commitment to properly revealing / representing Himself to us.

He wants a bride. He wants us to properly represent Him.

I am going to repeat an example, as this is such an important fact to grasp.

Let's say you wanted to date my sister, but were fat and smelt. You also worked at an orphanage in the pigsty, whilst being a fully qualified accountant.

I say to my sister ''there is a fat and smelly guy who wants a date''.

What would you think of me? It is truthful statements. But it is not the whole truth. Think long on what you would think of me. Now ask yourself what God thinks of those who miss-represent Him. God is who He is. All of scripture paints a picture. No verse in isolation, unless it is John 3:16.

God has gone to the ends of the earth to get a bride. Anyone miss-representing Him is walking on very thin ice.

 

[KingJ]

@King J. -- I don't recall ever saying I'm a Calvinist -- You've referred to me as being one. It does appear that both Curtis and myself have some beliefs that coinside with Calvinism -- but that doesn't mean we Are such.

Sue, you made a statement in an earlier post that was 100% Calvinistic. I asked you to better explain yourself as you have said you are not one. You did not and have made many more similar statements.

But, the floor is yours. Explain 'true free will' to me. How does it exist?

Let's say I am an unsaved person. I ask, ''if your God knows it all and made a hell, why must I serve Him?'' He sounds partial, demented and wicked. Convince me He is not.''

 

[KingJ]

That's right. Lucifer (AKA the devil, the serpent, Satan) was chosen to be "the anointed Cherub" He was not chosen to be the devil, he became the devil through his own actions!!!

I completely agree. So let's clarify this.

Scripture says ''he has been a murderer from the beginning'' John 8:44. Has he been a murderer from the beginning? No, he has not. As you have correctly stated, he was originally an anointed cherub. Just as Judas was once a disciple called to be an apostle.

The beginning is not ''day 1''. In these instances it is hypothetical.

 

[Curtis]

I completely agree. So let's clarify this.

Scripture says ''he has been a murderer from the beginning'' John 8:44. Has he been a murderer from the beginning? No, he has not. As you have correctly stated, he was originally an anointed cherub. Just as Judas was once a disciple called to be an apostle.

The beginning is not ''day 1''. In these instances it is hypothetical.

Satan was already a fallen angel in the "beginning" in the garden were Adam, and Eve lived. His fall happened before God re-created the earth, and were God told Adam to "replenish" the earth. (Gen 1:28)

 

[Curtis]

Did you read my post # 216?

What is easy to understand is the fact that you are completely miss-representing God. Which is a shame since the rest of scripture (and so, so, so, much of it) speaks to His effort / unbelievable commitment to properly revealing / representing Himself to us.

He wants a bride. He wants us to properly represent Him.

I am going to repeat an example, as this is such an important fact to grasp.

Let's say you wanted to date my sister, but were fat and smelt. You also worked at an orphanage in the pigsty, whilst being a fully qualified accountant.

I say to my sister ''there is a fat and smelly guy who wants a date''.

What would you think of me? It is truthful statements. But it is not the whole truth. Think long on what you would think of me. Now ask yourself what God thinks of those who miss-represent Him. God is who He is. All of scripture paints a picture. No verse in isolation, unless it is John 3:16.

God has gone to the ends of the earth to get a bride. Anyone miss-representing Him is walking on very thin ice.

Number one, telling some one about God is useless unless God himself is the person telling telling them, which Christ in us (who is God) must be in control of that person.

2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

As Jesus said......

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It always suppose to be Christ in the believer who speaks to others. If you are the one trying to convince people about the Lord God, and how he is you will will fail every time.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Sue D.]

This is from your post #150

"Regarding what is good and evil, God has put us on His level when He gave us our working brains."

Do you Really believe that?!

So -- do you King J really believe that God has put on His level when He gave us our working brains.

Yes or no.

 

[Curtis]

I don't understand why you say that. You believe God is all knowing. You believe God is the creator of all. Yet you say 'nope'?

Did god create this world knowing that Adam, and Eve fall. Absolutely yes!!! Did he want them to fall? Nope, which is why he told them not to eat from the tree in the mist of the garden. Why would the Lord then form Adam, and Eve if he knew they were going to fall? Because he wanted them to have free will choice over their future,

 

[Sue D.]

Did god create this world knowing that Adam, and Eve fall. Absolutely yes!!! Did he want them to fall? Nope, which is why he told them not to eat from the tree in the mist of the garden. Why would the Lord then form Adam, and Eve if he knew they were going to fall? Because he wanted them to have free will choice over their future,

And He already Also had our redemption planned. Their immediate 'redemption' was the skin that God provided for them -- the shedding of innocent blood of an animal in the Garden.

And, yes, they had free will to make their own choice -- And God Already knew what their choice would be Before they made it.

God's sovereighnty , love, justice , holiness.

 

[KingJ]

Satan was already a fallen angel in the "beginning" in the garden were Adam, and Eve lived. His fall happened before God re-created the earth, and were God told Adam to "replenish" the earth. (Gen 1:28)

He did not fall before earth was created. Ezekiel 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you.

 

[KingJ]

Number one, telling some one about God is useless unless God himself is the person telling telling them, which Christ in us (who is God) must be in control of that person.

2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

As Jesus said......

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

It always suppose to be Christ in the believer who speaks to others. If you are the one trying to convince people about the Lord God, and how he is you will will fail every time.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I disagree. It is us and Christ. Otherwise why use us?

 

[KingJ]

So -- do you King J really believe that God has put on His level when He gave us our working brains.

Yes or no.

Please re-read my post.

 

[KingJ]

Did god create this world knowing that Adam, and Eve fall. Absolutely yes!!! Did he want them to fall? Nope, which is why he told them not to eat from the tree in the mist of the garden. Why would the Lord then form Adam, and Eve if he knew they were going to fall? Because he wanted them to have free will choice over their future,

I agree, but once again....I still don't understand how you reconcile this with your belief in God's omnipotence and omniscience.

What is free will if He made them and knows all?

You are not answering the question, you are literally going in circles.