works has nothing to do with salvation yet it is a by product

[Robb]

It seems you have a reading and writing problem.

I can truly not believe you just asked that question.

Do I also have to convince you that bias is wicked?

If you had any goodness in you,...

You are changing your belief now...

I have been trying to have a rational discussion with you, but you just don't seem to want one. You are keeping to a biased view off of cherry picked scriptures and making troll like replies. Reading my posts like you do the bible.

I think that this is where it should end. I will say that it should not matter to a saved individual whether they think they freely repented and believed or god helped in some way. I believe Armenians are Christian bothers just like Calvinists are brothers. Let us not be divided over this theology. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[At Peace]

The difference is that I believe the bible says that we cannot choose, we are unable to choose.

Would you be kind enough to show where the bible says that?

 

[KingJ]

I think that this is where it should end. I will say that it should not matter to a saved individual whether they think they freely repented and believed or god helped in some way. I believe Armenians are Christian bothers just like Calvinists are brothers. Let us not be divided over this theology. Thanks for the discussion.

I don't believe anyone teaching that God is wicked to the unsaved is a brother working for God. I truly want you to understand the fact that every working brain on this planet will agree that partiality is wicked. The only thing a (5 point) Calvinist properly grasps is the dictionary definition of omniscience. This does not mean they grasp God. God is as good as He is great.

 

[Robb]

Would you be kind enough to show where the bible says that?

I think my posts in this thread make my argument.

 

[Robb]

I don't believe anyone teaching that God is wicked to the unsaved is a brother working for God. I truly want you to understand the fact that every working brain on this planet will agree that partiality is wicked. The only thing a (5 point) Calvinist properly grasps is the dictionary definition of omniscience. This does not mean they grasp God. God is as good as He is great.

I don't think god is wicked. Calvinists don't think god is wicked. You don't want to understand what they believe and why they don't believe god is wicked. Seems like you just want to accuse them of being wicked, insult them and tell them they are unsaved.

 

[KingJ]

I don't think god is wicked. Calvinists don't think god is wicked. You don't want to understand what they believe and why they don't believe god is wicked. Seems like you just want to accuse them of being wicked, insult them and tell them they are unsaved.

Anyone can wicki 5 point Calvinism.

I said to you that Calvinists have amended John 3:16 to say ''for God so love the few chosen...Calvinists''. Do you agree or disagree that Calvinists teach this?

Then you seem confused in your posts as to what you actually believe. So maybe I just don't understand you or you are partially understanding your posts and Calvinism? You said....God can be partial in who He chooses to save''. You then say He will not choose to save a murderous girl. That is conflicting and nonsensical statements. Conflicting, I have explained why. Nonsensical because a little girl should be exempt and incapable of a grievous sin that would keep her from being chosen.

I am waiting for a rational discussion with you. You are avoiding one.

 

[Dave M]

Would you be kind enough to show where the bible says that?

We are chosen according to the bible, yet the bible also makes it clear we are to seek God and it is our responsibility

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matthew 7:7-12
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! ...

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

 

[Bill]

One thing that was hard for me to grasp was the fact that we simply are not good enough to work our way to heaven and no matter what we do it was not good enough to get to heaven, it is all by the grace of God we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So as soon as I finally get a handle on it all God and by his grace I am saved and I can not work my way into heaven along comes faith without works is dead
James 2:26


. if you receive grace it changes you, once you become born again you will produce fruit (works). So born again Christians will produce works not because they have to, but because that's what they do. Jesus tells us these works if done in the right frame of mind and I have to believe most who are born again will do them in the right frame of mind will bring eternal rewards that will last forever.
Matthew 6:1-4
Colossians 3:23-24
Matthew 16:27
Matthew 25:21


so for the most part there seems to be a direct relationship between works and salvation, but understanding works has nothing to do with salvation is the important point to grasp, further more salvation does produce works, but works does not produce salvation.

What "works" is, is Christ working through you.

Come with me. But they said to Him, what have we done. And the King replyed, you clothed the naked, you fed the hungry, when you did for the least of these, you did it for me to

 

[Bill]

Anything evil that a person does is a sin.

If a person is doing evil works to me that says he is doing this purposely and his heart is fully behind the evil he is doing and he has no repentance.

You could say being gay, homosexual, is evil works. Most who practice this lifestyle know Gods laws, yet they still chose to do it, and worse, teach others to do it to

 

[Bill]

Exactly from my personal experience with sin and repentance I can tell you I struggled with sexual immorality and when I first repented I went the longest I ever went before but then I slipped up and it happened again but then I fasted and repented and then went the longest I ever went before slipping up, now I can not even remember when the last time I slipped up was, my point is like Jim states I was not cured over night it took constant repentance and even fasting to get to the point whear I am seldom even tempted now. And when tempted I can finally have confidence that I wont slip up.

Now if God wants to cure someone of there sinful nature right away I am sure he can do that and have herd people claim that thats what happened to them apparently Peice say this is I am understanding him correctly, that is great for him but that is not the norm from talking to many others who are constantly maturing in the faith.

The main reason of this thread was to point out our works our no good enough for us to earn our salvation, there fore we are saved by grace, yet works is evidence we are saved. So they are related for the most part but there are exceptions that people have no works like the thief on the cross and are still saved.

God rarely works instantaneously. It is a matter of our condition. Look at the Jews, how stubborn they were. It took them thousands of years to be conditioned just right for the messiah to come

 

[At Peace]

We are chosen according to the bible, yet the bible also makes it clear we are to seek God and it is our responsibility

Ephesians 1:4
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matthew 7:7-12
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! ...

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek.”

Thanks for saving me a lot of time researching Robb' posts.

 

[At Peace]

I think my posts in this thread make my argument.

Thank you.
Another poster supplied some of his study to help me understand Calvinism better.
What I have trouble with is...who decides if you or me are "chosen"?
Can't we make up our own mind if we want to serve God above all other things?

 

[Robb]

Anyone can wicki 5 point Calvinism.

Why the snarkiness?

I said to you that Calvinists have amended John 3:16 to say ''for God so love the few chosen...Calvinists''. Do you agree or disagree that Calvinists teach this?

Calvinism agrees with John 3:16. No Calvinist changes the verse. This verse does not say that the unbeliever chooses freely. God grants belief (Phil 1:29), god gives the ability to repent (2 Tim 2:25), works belief in us (Jn 6:28-29). The whosoever are those granted the act of believing. In Acts 13:48 it says:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Notice that God is the one who points people to eternal life and, according to the text, this is why they believe.

You said....God can be partial in who He chooses to save''. You then say He will not choose to save a murderous girl.

I did not say god would not choose to save a murderous girl. I also said that the girl was considered a murderer because she has anger in her heart (Mt 5:21-23). My point is that all God has is sinners to save. There are no non sinners for God to save, the girl deserves hell because she is a murderer in her heart. Just like you and me.

Nonsensical because a little girl should be exempt and incapable of a grievous sin that would keep her from being chosen.

Where do I find little girls exempt from the punishment for sin in the bible?

I am waiting for a rational discussion with you. You are avoiding one.

It would help if you avoided snarky responses.

 

[KingJ]

Calvinism agrees with John 3:16. No Calvinist changes the verse.

Yes they do.

This verse does not say that the unbeliever chooses freely.

Yes it does.

God grants belief (Phil 1:29), god gives the ability to repent (2 Tim 2:25), works belief in us (Jn 6:28-29). The whosoever are those granted the act of believing. In Acts 13:48 it says:

Now you are cherry picking scripture.

Phil 1:29 & John 6:28-29 is inline with 1 Cor 12:3. God gives us a revelation of Jesus. Faith to believe Jesus is Lord. You have not addressed the 'us'. Just add Matt 16:16-17 to understand the type of person God grants belief too (Peter, a faithful disciple verse someone like Judas who was not) and...the rest of scripture for context on the 'whosoever', like for example Psalm 51:17.

2 Tim 2:25 is talking to us being gentle with false teachers in the hope that they may repent so God can forgive them. The interpretation you are taking from it is completely wrong. We and God are hoping false teachers will repent so they may find forgiveness with God.

Acts 13:48 Is just speaking to those who from free will / being the whosoever, accepted Jesus. God judged them as He does us all Jer 17:9-10, they passed and were grafted in. Christianity 101. Stop reading that cherry picked verse with tunnel vision. Making the poor verse say something it was never intended to.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Notice that God is the one who points people to eternal life and, according to the text, this is why they believe.

Yes, God does. He chooses the whomsoever comes to Him on His terms.

Calvinism conflicts heavily with all other Christians because it is an attack on God's character. You place inserted assumptions into God having to be partial because you don't in the slightest try give Him the benefit of the doubt on being an unbiased, impartial and good God. You are ok with Him being a wicked God. Teaching He is a wicked God. But then for some reason saying ''you don't believe He is wicked''. Leaving the sane thinking reader to assume you have some real messed up idea of what is good. Every sane thinking person on this planet will not agree with you on partiality being good. Calvinists are the only ones brainwashing themselves into having this lob sided view of God. Stop attending a Calvinist church and you will see the light.

I did not say god would not choose to save a murderous girl. I also said that the girl was considered a murderer because she has anger in her heart (Mt 5:21-23). My point is that all god has is sinners to save. There are no non sinners for god to save, the girl deserves hell because she is a murderer in her heart. Just like you and me.

The '''''''little girl''''''' DESERVES ETERNAL FIRE AND TORMENT because she had some sinful thoughts. Please think more on the ridiculousness of that statement.

''Just like you and me''. I am a middle aged man who has had many years past the age of 21 to accept and reject God. To believe and not believe. To trust and not to trust. To repent and not to repent. When I stand before God, I have literally got no excuse for what I have done with my life if I have chosen to reject Him. There will be no such thing as a sinner being surprised to find himself in hell. Or one feeling unjustly treated. Likewise there will be no such thing as a saint in heaven believing God showed them partiality.

Where do I find little girls exempt from the punishment for sin in the bible?

So, because you cannot find a verse that explicitly states God will not send little girls to eternity, to suffer in hell fire and brimstone, you believe He will do that.

God is omniscient, so we can be forgiven for Calvinistic thoughts. But lets get a better understanding of God before we share our assumption of what God has planned for us with anyone. Especially the unsaved. Let's add more scripture that defines God, like: Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good. 1 John 1:5 The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him, at all. Note the, 'at all'. It was inserted for a reason. As well as it being the message we have heard from the beginning. Calvinism does just not fit there.

So let's ask the question now. Will an omniscient God, who is good, who has no darkness in Him at all, who is best defined as love 1 John 4:8, do a deed that literally no good person on this planet will do? I think not.

Jesus also says this of little children Matt 19:14 Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Paul says in 1 Cor 6:1-9 that we can judge and discern matters better then the unsaved. So let's do that...? Let's not judge and discern, worse, then the unsaved. God wants us to judge and grasp Him. He is an open book.

 

[Robb]

The '''''''little girl''''''' DESERVES ETERNAL FIRE AND TORMENT because she had some sinful thoughts. Please think more on the ridiculousness of that statement.

Jesus says she does. You have not dealt with Matthew 5:21-23.

''Just like you and me''. I am a middle aged man who has had many years past the age of 21 to accept and reject God. To believe and not believe. To trust and not to trust. To repent and not to repent. When I stand before God, I have literally got no excuse for what I have done with my life if I have chosen to reject Him. There will be no such thing as a sinner being surprised to find himself in hell. Or one feeling unjustly treated. Likewise there will be no such thing as a saint in heaven believing God showed them partiality.

If it is a sin to believe god helped me decide to repent and believe then that sin was punished by Jesus on the cross. When I am judged I will be found to be perfect because Jesus died for my sins and gave me his righteousness.

So, because you cannot find a verse that explicitly states God will not send little girls to eternity, to suffer in hell fire and brimstone, you believe He will do that.

No, because I find verses that says she will. You need to deal with Matthew 5:21-23.

God is omniscient, so we can be forgiven for Calvinistic thoughts. But lets get a better understanding of God before we share our assumption of what God has planned for us with anyone. Especially the unsaved. Let's add more scripture that defines God, like: Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good. 1 John 1:5 The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him, at all. Note the, 'at all'. It was inserted for a reason. As well as it being the message we have heard from the beginning. Calvinism does just not fit there.

I believe God is good with no darkness in him. You want to tell others that believe a different theology what they think and not listen to them about what they believe. You distort the theology I believe and tell me I am wicked, insane, brainwashed, stupid etc. How does that reaction square with your idea of what god commands of his disciples?

So let's ask the question now. Will an omniscient God, who is good, who has no darkness in Him at all, who is best defined as love 1 John 4:8, do a deed that literally no good person on this planet will do? I think not.

So you think god determines right and wrong based on what people think is right and wrong?

Calvinism conflicts heavily with all other Christians because it is an attack on God's character. You place inserted assumptions into God having to be partial because you don't in the slightest try give Him the benefit of the doubt on being an unbiased, impartial and good God. You are ok with Him being a wicked God. Teaching He is a wicked God. But then for some reason saying ''you don't believe He is wicked''. Leaving the sane thinking reader to assume you have some real messed up idea of what is good. Every sane thinking person on this planet will not agree with you on partiality being good. Calvinists are the only ones brainwashing themselves into having this lob sided view of God. Stop attending a Calvinist church and you will see the light.

I don't go to a Calvinist church, thanks for the insults and untruths. I think maybe for your sake we should stop this discussion, this discussion is tempting you to sin.

 

[cmd73]

One thing that was hard for me to grasp was the fact that we simply are not good enough to work our way to heaven and no matter what we do it was not good enough to get to heaven, it is all by the grace of God we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So as soon as I finally get a handle on it all God and by his grace I am saved and I can not work my way into heaven along comes faith without works is dead
James 2:26


. if you receive grace it changes you, once you become born again you will produce fruit (works). So born again Christians will produce works not because they have to, but because that's what they do. Jesus tells us these works if done in the right frame of mind and I have to believe most who are born again will do them in the right frame of mind will bring eternal rewards that will last forever.
Matthew 6:1-4
Colossians 3:23-24
Matthew 16:27
Matthew 25:21


so for the most part there seems to be a direct relationship between works and salvation, but understanding works has nothing to do with salvation is the important point to grasp, further more salvation does produce works, but works does not produce salvation.

There's nothing a Christian can do morally for God that a non believer can not also do. I can't see how the Christian possesses any advantage over the non believer. You don't lose your moral compass just because you don't follow a set of rules from a book, there's plenty of secular material that can help with grounding one morally. Besides that morality is an innate sense we are born with, even children know how to take right actions.

 

[B-A-C]

There's nothing a Christian can do morally for God that a non believer can not also do. I can't see how the Christian possesses any advantage over the non believer. You don't lose your moral compass just because you don't follow a set of rules from a book, there's plenty of secular material that can help with grounding one morally. Besides that morality is an innate sense we are born with, even children know how to take right actions.

It's unfortunate that we have some on here that are proving you right. But what what defines morality? Is homosexuality immoral? Are abortions immoral?
You asked about God sending people to hell in another thread. What about humans killing innocent babies?

There are indeed some Christians who believe they can live exactly like the rest of the world with no consequences.
There are some who believe they "shouldn't" live that, but even if they do there aren't any consequences.
There are some who believe they shouldn't live that way, but struggle with living righteously.

So much for being a unified faith. But I believe Satan is responsible for this as well.

If there is no God.... if there is no afterlife... No hell... no eternal punishment... what incentive do I have to live righteously?
If there is no God.... no Bible.... what defines morality and righteousness? You? me? The government? (they think they do) The media? The news agencies?

If everyone knows to do the right things, why don't we? Even if everyone agrees that stealing, killing, lying and being sexually unfaithful is wrong... why do people
do these things? The fact that people can't stop doing these things is proof of Satan.... if He exists God must exist.

But if there was a group of people who were different... I mean really different. People that had love and compassion for one another.
People that went out of their way to help each other, and really cared for each other. Would that group draw you to it?

 

[Dave M]

There's nothing a Christian can do morally for God that a non believer can not also do. I can't see how the Christian possesses any advantage over the non believer. You don't lose your moral compass just because you don't follow a set of rules from a book, there's plenty of secular material that can help with grounding one morally. Besides that morality is an innate sense we are born with, even children know how to take right actions.

actually children are born sinners, being bad for children comes natural being good has to be taught

 

[cmd73]

It's unfortunate that we have some on here that are proving you right. But what what defines morality? Is homosexuality immoral? Are abortions immoral?
You asked about God sending people to hell in another thread. What about humans killing innocent babies?

There are indeed some Christians who believe they can live exactly like the rest of the world with no consequences.
There are some who believe they "shouldn't" live that, but even if they do there aren't any consequences.
There are some who believe they shouldn't live that way, but struggle with living righteously.

So much for being a unified faith. But I believe Satan is responsible for this as well.

If there is no God.... if there is no afterlife... No hell... no eternal punishment... what incentive do I have to live righteously?
If there is no God.... no Bible.... what defines morality and righteousness? You? me? The government? (they think they do) The media? The news agencies?

If everyone knows to do the right things, why don't we? Even if everyone agrees that stealing, killing, lying and being sexually unfaithful is wrong... why do people
do these things? The fact that people can't stop doing these things is proof of Satan.... if He exists God must exist.

But if there was a group of people who were different... I mean really different. People that had love and compassion for one another.
People that went out of their way to help each other, and really cared for each other. Would that group draw you to it?

Ok so if I murder a child I am evil, but if your God wipes out a whole town of children then that's good. How can one thing be good to this God but then evil to me?

 

[B-A-C]

Ok so if I murder a child I am evil, but if your God wipes out a whole town of children then that's good. How can one thing be good to this God but then evil to me?

Does every evil thing that happens in the world come from God?

Still in some cases, it is God. There are dozens of answers.
Maybe to save them from a worse fate. War, pestilence, poverty, disease, slavery.
Maybe to save them from growing where there is only false beliefs about God and they never have a chance to make up their own minds.
In the Bible it happened sometimes because the "people" weren't all humans, sometimes they were giants.

So God has His reasons sometimes. What are your reasons?