Separating obedient from perfect

[Wired 4 Fishen]

And yet it is written that "the Spiritual man judgeth all things". (1 Cor 2:15)
Scripture says we will be judged by the same judgements we render.
But if our judgements are just, we need not fear our conclusions.
Just be ready to back them up.

That would be a half quote there.

Sounds like you got a mote ministry, pointing out faults because you see it as just.

Back it up?
Too funny

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

What are you if you are incomplete, unwhole, or immature?
Imperfect?

Then you continue growing in Christ and over come these areas.
Still saved and walking in Grace.

And disobedient to Jesus' command.

Which command?

 

[Bendito]

That would be a half quote there.

Sounds like you got a mote ministry, pointing out faults because you see it as just.

Back it up?
Too funny

LOL A text without a context is a pretext. A lie.
Derek Prince.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Perfect:

• By man's standards there are perfect diamonds. But they are not....there is an acceptable amount of flaws in each perfect diamond!
• By God's standard perfection is totally with out flaw!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Perfect:

• By man's standards there are perfect diamonds. But they are not....there is an acceptable amount of flaws in each perfect diamond!
• By God's standard perfection is totally with out flaw!

This is true and just as true is how the translators put the Word perfect in and man uses his definition of the word perfect.

Blessings to you

 

[B-A-C]

I am taking the middle ground here. I think both "sides" are right. But I also think both sides are wrong.

I definitely think it is wrong to tell someone they aren't saved because they have sinned. As some here have said,
I think there is grace, a growing time, a time to learn and mature.

However I think it is equally wrong to tell people they will never stop sinning and they can never overcome sin.
Both sides have posted a lot of scripture here.

Now while it may be possible to remain saved if you sin. I see no verse that says we "have" to sin. I see no verse that says we
can never overcome sin. It may not happen the second you get saved. It may not happen for weeks, months, years.

But I think it's wrong to say it will never happen.
John 5:14; Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

John 8:11; She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

John 8:34; Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Gal 2:17; "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

1 Tim 5:20; Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

1 Tim 5:22; Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Heb 12:1; Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

1 Jn 3:6; No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

1 Cor 15:34; Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Paul talks about different levels of Christian maturity. He talks about infants, children, young men and fathers.
In the early part of his ministry he says he doesn't consider himself as already overcoming or already worthy of salvation.

Php 3:11; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13; Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14; I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

But later on, he speaks differently. It sounds as if after fighting the fight and running the race... He knows he has a crown of righteousness.

2 Tim 4:6; For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
2 Tim 4:7; I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
2 Tim 4:8; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Yes, there is love, grace and mercy and forgiveness. Even after we are saved. Yes we still sin sometimes after we are saved. Yes we need forgiveness even after we are saved.
We have an advocate even if we do sin. But let us not use this as an excuse.

I believe we are just as bad if we have the attitude, oh well... I will never stop sinning. I might as well not worry about it.
I can live just like the rest of the world, sin as much as I want to... and I'm saved anyway.

I can't say I'm perfect. I can't say I never sin. But I really can say there are days and even weeks I don't.
I really can say I sin a lot less than I used to. I really can say God has changed me. I really can say I am no longer
controlled by certain sins and addictions that I used to be a slave to. There are some sins I used to do almost daily, that I have not done in years and years.

I think we need to be careful thinking sin is OK with God and it makes no difference to Him how we live.
I think we need to be careful telling people we can never stop sinning and neither can they. I think it's wrong
to tell people we will never overcome. We can't really have the victory in Jesus. We can't really do all things through
Him which strengthens us. Where does the Bible say we "have" to keep sinning until we die?

 

[At Peace]

Ok...You are the righteousness of God in Christ (the anointed One and His anointing) Then you sin. If you sin you are no longer the righteousness of God, because you cannot sin and be righteous at the same time...Then you confess your sin, and God is faithful to forgive and to cleanse you from sin. Thus making you righteous AGAIN.
I know that you knew that.

Why not rely on the graciousness of God to keep you righteous?
He does say..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If a man "turns from" sin, but then sins again, he manifests that his previous "turn" was a lie.
You can't forge a relationship with God based on lies.

 

[At Peace]

Wow...That's a nice thing to say, a nice thing to dream about but no living human can do that. We sin! We let ourselves be tempted and we also give in to that temptation. We sin. ALL of us. Even you.

I, and my brothers and sisters ARE doing it.

BTW, Jesus didn't sin. Neither do those that are now allowed to be "in" Christ.

 

[Bendito]

Why not rely on the graciousness of God to keep you righteous?
He does say..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If a man "turns from" sin, but then sins again, he manifests that his previous "turn" was a lie.
You can't forge a relationship with God based on lies.

Are you saying that God is not being gracious to forgive our sins and restore us to righteousness? Really?
And YES. You turn from sin and can still goof up again...We are not smarter than the tempter. and we do get sucked in.

 

[Bendito]

I, and my brothers and sisters ARE doing it.

BTW, Jesus didn't sin. Neither do those that are now allowed to be "in" Christ.

No you're not. If you think you're going through life never slipping and getting into disobedience now and again then I'll say it straight. You are deceived.

 

[At Peace]

Greetings @At Peace
Im not wishing to get involved in this brotherly discussion but have been reading with interest here.

Shouldn't you write..."I am wishing to get involved..." as you just did? LOL

Could you possibly explain......How you love God above all things and how you love your neighbour as yourself.?
How does this happen in a practical sense in your day to day life.......because I struggle with this)

Practically... I start each day with reading and prayer.
Every day without fail.
I refrain from the TV and radio shows that portray wickedness as a good thing.
I work on this site, trying everyday to provoke the readers to see that if I can do it, so can they.
I help my neighbors, trying to give an example of what God loving men are like...with rides to the store, bank, medical appts. and to the food bank.
I give to the folks who hold sign asking for help...when I can.
I volunteer at a food bank on Saturday, {(when they have the most problem getting volunteers to get up early).
I read some more, and pray all day long, or more like converse with God all day long.
I thank God for a thousand things everyday.
Including my meals, health, money, and every green light I am gifted with.
When I eat at a restaurant, I take and display my bible while I read and study. (that has started a lot of conversations)
I pray some more.

If as you seem to suggest brother we are all sinless and perfect ......why does the new testament need to admonish worldly sin/behaviour in the believer so frequently.

And exhort us so much to walk in Him?
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him:
Colossians 2:1

Not that we ARE all sinless, but that we all CAN be obedient to God all the time...to His glory.
Adhere to the exhortations. Take each one to heart, applying them to day to day living.
We have been given weapons with which to win our own personal war with a second death.
Use them, manifesting the grace of God on earth now.

 

[At Peace]

Are you saying that God is not being gracious to forgive our sins and restore us to righteousness? Really?

No, I'm not saying that... but if your intended life is just the continued pursuit of fleshly satisfaction, you should take to heart this scripture..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." (John 9:31)

And YES. You turn from sin and can still goof up again...We are not smarter than the tempter. and we do get sucked in.

Then you didn't "turn from sin".
Why do you maintain that the devil is any smarter than a man IN CHRIST?
Jesus didn't sin and we can have the same victory over wickedness.
We just have to be "in Christ".
Those outside of Christ have no hope.

Do you know how to get "in Christ" (Use scripture, please.)

 

[At Peace]

No you're not. If you think you're going through life never slipping and getting into disobedience now and again then I'll say it straight. You are deceived.

A "deception" I will rejoice in.
Do you suppose God will "help me" get back to the perversions and hate I once enjoyed so much? (tongue in cheek)

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@B-A-C Greetings,
Actually there was another side which gets turned around for some reason in the replies.

I have stated there is a difference between willfully sinning and missing the mark and sinning.

That seemed to get turned around into I just want to sin.

I stated the power or stronghold of sin that kept us captive has been broken but we still have to do our part through Christ as we mature in Him.

Again I was told I just want to sin and I was not truly born again because if I was then it all was taken away.

I have said we can over come sin and that too got twisted around.

The ONLY reason I even stayed replying in this topic is because telling people they are not saved because they have yet to overcome some areas is bad doctrine and can have devastating results in some ones life.
Shoot even satan uses that tactic.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

The ONLY reason I even stayed replying in this topic is because telling people they are not saved because they have yet to overcome some areas is bad doctrine and can have devastating results in some ones life.

Shoot even satan uses that tactic.

Blessings

Amen!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

And yet it is written that "the Spiritual man judgeth all things". (1 Cor 2:15)
Scripture says we will be judged by the same judgements we render.
But if our judgements are just, we need not fear our conclusions.
Just be ready to back them up.

It does not work like that. You can not pull a piece of scripture out and then build a doctrine on it.
You are using 1Corinthians2:15 in error.

13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.

14 But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


This is not even talking about Judging people.
Not to mention the part of the verse you left out (yet he himself is judged of no man.) Simply makes your use null and void.

Now your use in the reply was to
Bendito said: ↑
LOL If people judge others they are not perfect...Because that's disobedient to the Word.

Tagging @Bendito because I used his post

 

[KingJ]

When I say "perfect" I infer perfectly obedient to God.
Love God above all else and my neighbor as myself. (Matt 22:37)

Are there levels of perfect obedience? If so, how so? If not, how do you explain God using some of us for more then others?

 

[Dave M]

I am going to start a new thread on what sin is, please everyone in this thread reply because there seems to be confusion, I am a little confused myself and would like everyone thoughts

 

[At Peace]

Wow...That's a nice thing to say, a nice thing to dream about but no living human can do that. We sin! We let ourselves be tempted and we also give in to that temptation. We sin. ALL of us. Even you.

Then it is obvious that they don't believe scriptures like the one I furnished in post # 14.

 

[At Peace]

Are there levels of perfect obedience? If so, how so? If not, how do you explain God using some of us for more then others?

No.
You either are or you are not obedient.
I can't explain what God does.
He can use the best of men and the worst of men to get His agenda done.