Our Creator and Hell

[KingJ]

As for punishing one’s children, as a parent I do discipline and punish my children. But there is definite purpose to it, and that purpose is not “justice.” My wife and I discipline our children exclusively to rear them as considerate, compassionate people for their own benefit and that of the community in which we live. I don’t think I could ever force myself to punish them for the sole objective that they receive punishment out of some debt they owe the cosmos. And I do not find anything admirable in any parent who does. Discipline is my duty as a parent in order to teach them, in hope they will consequently live better lives. But, except as a deterrence, permanent sentencing to Hell doesn’t seem to offer any such opportunity for rehabilitation.

And as for taking responsibility for my children’s actions, my personal take on that is, I myself, am responsible for any of their transgressions until such time as they are mature enough to assume that responsibility for themselves. This means, if there is restitution to be made, I consider myself bound to make it, and I do. This strikes me as being at odds with a notion that God takes responsibility for the humans he has created and, in light of that, punishes them and not himself.

Thoughts?

Humans are not children of God. We are a much loved creation. We become adopted into his family / children when we get saved / washed by the blood of Jesus.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Humans are not children of God. We are a much loved creation. We become adopted into his family / children when we get saved / washed by the blood of Jesus.

Fair enough. Forgive me resorting to the crutch of “children-as-analog-for-created-humans.” I think it’s a closest approximation to a God-Man relationship with which I can identify. (BTW, I would NEVER wish on people a god as bungling as the dad my kids have.)

There are others which I find apt but which I think believers consider inept or disrespectful, two being an ant farm and its owner and Frankenstein and his monster.

But, for the moment, let’s just use unambiguous, directly referential “Creator-Creation.” If we place “Creator” on a scale from Good-to-Evil at the “Maximally Good” end, is it valid to assign a hypothetical being at the “Maximally Evil” end the label of “Destroyer?”

(Not trying to make a point here. Just trying to agree on some terminology and parameters for the next question I’d like to pose.)

 

[B-A-C]

If we place “Creator” on a scale from Good-to-Evil at the “Maximally Good” end, is it valid to assign a hypothetical being at the “Maximally Evil” end the label of “Destroyer?”

Even that isn't really a good analogy.
Not everything that is/was created in good.

Not everything that is destroyed is bad.

Even God was sorry He made man. He destroyed the entire population of the earth except for one family on a big boat.
When he was creating the earth, He said "it is good" several times. But then He said "it is not good" (for man to be alone).

If cancer could be destroyed, would that be bad? From a Christian perspective... sin is like cancer.
Some things... some people need to be destroyed.... for the greater good.

How many movies are about people going back in time... so they stop someone from killing a lot of people. What if someone could have done that
for Hitler, Stalin or Zedong? Would it be bad they were destroyed?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Even that isn't really a good analogy.
Not everything that is/was created in good.

Not everything that is destroyed is bad. Some things... some people need to be destroyed.... for the greater good

Fair enough.

Ok. Would you agree there is (or at least CAN be) a tension between justice and mercy, where justice is the rewarding of the good and the punishing of the bad, while mercy is the withholding of punishment when it is deserved?

 

[KingJ]

1. If we place “Creator” on a scale from Good-to-Evil at the “Maximally Good” end, is it valid to assign a hypothetical being at the “Maximally Evil” end the label of “Destroyer?”

Fair enough.

2. Ok. Would you agree there is (or at least CAN be) a tension between justice and mercy, where justice is the rewarding of the good and the punishing of the bad, while mercy is the withholding of punishment when it is deserved?

1. God is maximally good. When He said he was sorry He made man, He did not mean that. He was just saddened by so many sinning. If He was sorry He made man, He would not have made man.

There is no maximal evil as there is only one God. The most evil thus far seems to just be the devil. In a sense all who go to hell are in God's view ''maximal evil', I guess.

2. Yes. True justice would be an eye for an eye. God does not do this. Rom 2:6 is completely misinterpreted by many. The correct interpretation is to grasp that there will simply be differing punishments and rewards. Not, eye for an eye.

Even that isn't really a good analogy.
Not everything that is/was created in good.

I disagree BAC.

All of creation was good from day 1. We can parallel all 'bad' things like viruses, poisonous spiders and cancer to God creating lions with big teeth. They were created perfectly / good from day 1 with big teeth. Yet they lay with lambs. When mankind sinned, they ate lambs. The whole earth as it is, is still good. It is the perfect setting / environment needed for God to judge and test man. As well as for man to exercise his free will. God wants a balance of good and evil / pleasure and suffering. This is why He put the devil on the earth in the first place. Free will is good. No free will is evil. God eradicates societies when the balance sways excessively toward evil.

 

[KingJ]

There are others which I find apt but which I think believers consider inept or disrespectful, two being an ant farm and its owner and Frankenstein and his monster.

Well as I have already said, God knew that laying His life down was part and parcel of creating mankind. So, an ant farm or Frankenstein's monster are terrible analogies.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

1. God is maximally good. When He said he was sorry He made man, He did not mean that. He was just saddened by so many sinning. If He was sorry He made man, He would not have made man...

I'll take issue with the notion that God did not actually repent of having made man. Gen 6:6 is absolutely explicit and specific. It doesn't say, "God SAID he was sorry...," it says, "God WAS SORRY..." I can't accept that he didn't really MEAN it unless you can show some pretty compelling scripture to support such a view. All by itself, Genesis does not.

I've already conceded that even a maximally good creator can be capable of destroying certain things. I'll also grant that a maximally just or maximally merciful God may not necessarily ALWAYS be just or merciful. Indeed, he can even be capricious, as when he admits to Satan that he (God) has done evil to Job without cause. ( Job 2:3 ) In light of all that, and all the degrees of freedom inherent in omnipotence, isn't it therefor possible for God, acting on mercy, to spare someone from Hell who might otherwise deserve damnation?

In fact, isn't this flexibility the only way to make any sense that Hitler and I may receive to same punishment even though Hitler started a war that caused almost 80,000,000 deaths all told and immeasurable misery, while my greates sins (so far) have been limited exclusively to self-destructive behavior and a lot of lying?

 

[B-A-C]

God wants a balance of good and evil / pleasure and suffering. This is why He put the devil on the earth in the first place. Free will is good. No free will is evil.

To me at least, the first half of that sentence is heresy. I agree with the free will part. The reason evil is in the world, is not because God "wants" it.
It's because He allows free will, and some people choose to do/be evil.

Even Satan wasn't always evil... He chose to become that way.

God wants everyone to be saved. 1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9; so why aren't they? It's because God allows them to chose.

Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

A few Translations of Gen 6:6;

(AMPC) And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.
(AMPC+) And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.
(ASV) And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(GNB) he was sorry that he had ever made them and put them on the earth. He was so filled with regret
(GW) The LORD was sorry that he had made humans on the earth, and he was heartbroken.
(HCSB) the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
(KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(MKJV) And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart.
(MSG) GOD was sorry that he had made the human race in the first place; it broke his heart.
(NAS77) And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
(NASB) The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
(NIrV) The LORD was very sad that he had made man on the earth. His heart was filled with pain.
(NIV) The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
(NLT) So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.

nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).

This same word is also used in this verse...

1 Chron 21:15; And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but as he was about to destroy it, the LORD saw and was sorry over the calamity, and said to the destroying angel, "It is enough; now relax your hand." And the angel of the LORD was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

 

[KingJ]

1. To me at least, the first half of that sentence is heresy. I agree with the free will part. The reason evil is in the world, is not because God "wants" it. It's because He allows free will, and some people choose to do/be evil.

2. Even Satan wasn't always evil... He chose to become that way.

3. God wants everyone to be saved. 1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9; so why aren't they? It's because God allows them to chose.

4. Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

1 & 3. We saying the same thing. Or at least trying to. I just wanted to be clear that God put evil on earth when He put the devil here. His plan in doing this 'is perfect' and ironically, good. As free will is good.

2. I don't agree. Am being pedantic though. Jesus says only God is good Mark 10:18 and that the devil has been sinning since the beginning 1 John 3:8. I believe the devils rebellion / evil was tolerable. When he gave in to grievous rebellion, he was removed. I don't believe any angel in heaven or us when we get there will be 'perfectly' good. Just sanctified.

4. Agreed. God tests, He does not tempt. Job 1:9-12.

I'll take issue with the notion that God did not actually repent of having made man. Gen 6:6 is absolutely explicit and specific. It doesn't say, "God SAID he was sorry...," it says, "God WAS SORRY..." I can't accept that he didn't really MEAN it unless you can show some pretty compelling scripture to support such a view. All by itself, Genesis does not.

I've already conceded that even a maximally good creator can be capable of destroying certain things. I'll also grant that a maximally just or maximally merciful God may not necessarily ALWAYS be just or merciful. Indeed, he can even be capricious, as when he admits to Satan that he (God) has done evil to Job without cause. ( Job 2:3 ) In light of all that, and all the degrees of freedom inherent in omnipotence, isn't it therefor possible for God, acting on mercy, to spare someone from Hell who might otherwise deserve damnation?

In fact, isn't this flexibility the only way to make any sense that Hitler and I may receive to same punishment even though Hitler started a war that caused almost 80,000,000 deaths all told and immeasurable misery, while my greates sins (so far) have been limited exclusively to self-destructive behavior and a lot of lying?

You are simply making the same mistake many make when they read scripture. You are not trying to put yourself in God's shoes. He is omnipotent, omniscient and good. The argument on Gen 6:6 follows the same lines as Rom 9:13 Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.

We have to grasp terminology from God / the inspired writer trying to pen God's emotions in a human language, God is not a human. There are emotions and words with Him that are beyond our ability to grasp. IE We need to allow other scripture to shine on the contentious ones for context.

Simple example: Rom 6:23 Wages of sin is death. If we all took the wording / translations literally we should all believe in annihilation as some here do. Death = death? However if we apply our minds to other scripture for context we see the example of Adam and Eve's sin resulting in.....banishment from Eden and not 'death'. We see the sin of many dead people resulting in them being in Abraham's Bosom or the other side of Hades, not dead. We see scripture telling us that many will be in hell for eternity, not dead.

Then we see examples of when God speaks to the most ''''evil'''' in Matt 4:11 and we should also take all of Jesus's words to Judas. Wow Jesus / God displayed so much....hate when He spoke. So we are correct to interpret God hates Esau as God hates some..... Such an epic lateral thought and reading in context fail. God hates absolutely nobody.

The writer of Gen 6:6 had a vision of God sighing. Very simple applied lateral thought should help us grasp that God was hurting / not regretting in a literal sense that He made man. He knew mankind would sin, that's why He planned to die for them before the foundations of the earth. That's why He created rains that could remove evil societies for new ones. That's why He created fire for city's like Sodom.

I've already conceded that even a maximally good creator can be capable of destroying certain things. I'll also grant that a maximally just or maximally merciful God may not necessarily ALWAYS be just or merciful. Indeed, he can even be capricious, as when he admits to Satan that he (God) has done evil to Job without cause. ( Job 2:3 ) In light of all that, and all the degrees of freedom inherent in omnipotence, isn't it therefor possible for God, acting on mercy, to spare someone from Hell who might otherwise deserve damnation?

God does not 'do evil'. He allowed the devil to test Job. Ie He tested Job. This all caught Job by surprise, as he had not sinned. The logical pre-requisite for things to go wrong. Job 1:8-12.

In fact, isn't this flexibility the only way to make any sense that Hitler and I may receive to same punishment even though Hitler started a war that caused almost 80,000,000 deaths all told and immeasurable misery, while my greates sins (so far) have been limited exclusively to self-destructive behavior and a lot of lying?

Circumstances and opportunities are factors, yes. A person filled with hate and no gun will potentially not be responsible for killing someone. God judges the depths of hearts Jer 17:9-12. He makes no mistakes on sentencing.

But, this does not mean God is flexible. He is good, full stop. In the case of Job, testing results in greater rewards in heaven. So it is what a good God wants to do to His children. Job will forever be known as the person that endured X and Y for God and remained faithful. Testing is quite a big subject as God never leaves us nor forsakes us Deut 31:6. He never puts us through what we can't handle. He does special tests like this to only His children / followers.

 

[Lanolin]

I disagree BAC.

All of creation was good from day 1. We can parallel all 'bad' things like viruses, poisonous spiders and cancer to God creating lions with big teeth. They were created perfectly / good from day 1 with big teeth. Yet they lay with lambs. When mankind sinned, they ate lambs. The whole earth as it is, is still good. It is the perfect setting / environment needed for God to judge and test man. As well as for man to exercise his free will. God wants a balance of good and evil / pleasure and suffering. This is why He put the devil on the earth in the first place. Free will is good. No free will is evil. God eradicates societies when the balance sways excessively toward evil.

Hmmm interesting, but what about the fall. Didnt satan fall like lightening from heaven he wasnt originally put on earth he was cast down/out.

Also in revelation, in heaven there will be no more suffering. When adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil its not because God wanted a balance, he actually warned them NOT to eat from it. They were meant to eat from the tree of life. When they ate from the forbidden tree they were BARRED from the tree of life...they couldnt go back to Eden.

I maintain while there is free will, there's also free wont! You either obey or disobey. Gods will or not Gods will. I dont know that the earth is 'still good' the way God created it initially but that is why we have a saviour. To redeem us. Thank you Jesus, to lead us the way to God.

Kirby...you want to judge Hitler but afraid to judge yourself, who died and made you God?

God has a lot of mercy for sinners allowing them to live here on earth and still be breathing. Yes, you are still alive today thanks to Him. But we are actually saved by grace, not mercy. We are not going to be on this earth forever, unless we accept the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Eternity is a long time!!

God does not want liars in his Kingdom. Sorry but thats the truth. So please stop it, and stop decieving yourself thinking God is going to let you get away with it, for He is HOLY. Come to Jesus, for the truth will set you free.

I know I dont want weeds in my garden...lol. Yes there are uses for weeds..in the compost heap! Or to be burned! (Cos you dont want weed seeds in your compost! ) But orginally, there were no weeds.

Imagine a garden with no weeds...we wouldnt have to work to maintain it, we can just relax and enjoy. Heaven is like that.

 

[B-A-C]

THe king or Tyre is an allegory of Satan. I don't doubt there was someone who was the king of Tyre, however...

Ezek 28:6; Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because you have made your heart Like the heart of God,

Ezek 28:12; "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

It's very unlikely this "person" was in the garden of eden. It says this being was the "anointed cherub" in the garden. The were on the holy mountain of God.
They were blameless.

Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:17; "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.

This being sinned and was "cast" to the ground. ( Luke 10:18; )

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13; "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14; 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
Isa 14:15; "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

 

[KingJ]

Hmmm interesting, but what about the fall. Didnt satan fall like lightening from heaven he wasnt originally put on earth he was cast down/out.

Also in revelation, in heaven there will be no more suffering. When adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil its not because God wanted a balance, he actually warned them NOT to eat from it. They were meant to eat from the tree of life. When they ate from the forbidden tree they were BARRED from the tree of life...they couldnt go back to Eden.

I maintain while there is free will, there's also free wont! You either obey or disobey. Gods will or not Gods will. I dont know that the earth is 'still good' the way God created it initially but that is why we have a saviour. To redeem us. Thank you Jesus, to lead us the way to God.

The original issue raised was suggesting God can be evil. I think you and BAC missed that.

All I am trying to explain is that God is not evil, ever. What we have that seems evil is good in that it exists for and from free will. The devil fell to Earth and not Mars. God put the forbidden tree in Eden. When God made all those lions with big teeth, He said it is good or bad?

 

[Lanolin]

The original issue raised was suggesting God can be evil. I think you and BAC missed that.

All I am trying to explain is that God is not evil, ever. What we have that seems evil is good in that it exists for and from free will. The devil fell to Earth and not Mars. God put the forbidden tree in Eden. When God made all those lions with big teeth, He said it is good or bad?

You cant call evil good. They are separate. But what others mean for evil, God meant it for good. Genesis 50:20

The forbidden tree was knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge of evil.

A better way to explain is that God is light and there is no shadow in his turning. He presides over everything and is above all. Satan or the devil is opposed and an adversary to all that is good and trying to corrupt it with darkness and evil. But God can turn things around for light and good.Before adam and eve listened to the serpent and ate from the forbidden tree, they were innocent. All that they had they just took it for what it was, like children, not knowing the difference. They didnt have knowledge. But when they ate, they did.

God isnt like a scientist experimenting with his creation and putting them through all these tests and trials to see what we going to do. He already knows..the thing is, he wants us to know Him and to listen to Him. What God created is for His glory. God created lions and he created the serpent, who was most clever..but the serpent couldnt outsmart God cos guess what the serpent ended up being cursed.

Well, whoever is suggesting that God could be evil doesnt really know God.
OF course God has knowledge of good and evil, he made the tree...but that doesnt make him evil. Why would He be evil if he explicitly warned adam NOT to eat from it. God was protecting Adam.
It was adam who disobeyed. Adam didnt listen.

I guess some people will always try to blame someone else for their sin. Like adam blaming God for making Eve. That takes the cake. Oh so its now somehow Gods fault??! Well look even if God made a mistake or his plan somehow to us is ruined He's God he can correct it!

 

[B-A-C]

The original issue raised was suggesting God can be evil. I think you and BAC missed that.

I think some people don't know what "good" is. There is a HUGE difference between always "nice" and always "good".

This is the God that caused painful sores to come upon the Egyptians.
This is the God that killed the first-born of the Egyptians.
Then drowned them in the Red Sea.
This is the God that knocked down the walls of Jericho.
The God that rained fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.
This is the God that destroyed just about all of mankind by a flood.
The same God who commanded that mediums and spiritist should be stoned. ( Lev 20:27; )
He commanded the Israelites to stone anyone who blasphemed the name of God. ( Lev 24:16; )
This is the God that told the Jews to kill every woman, child, infant and animal of the Amaleks ( 1 Sam 15:3; )
The same God that killed 70,000 men in a pestilence ( 1 Chron 21:14; )
The same God that struck down Annanias and Sapphira.
The same God that will allow people to be tormented for 5 months ( Rev 9:5; )
A God that brings a "painful" destruction. ( Micah 2:10; )
The same God that will cause men to chew on their tongues because they are in so much pain. ( Rev 16:10; )

There are dozens more of these verses. This doesn't make God evil. In fact this is one of the very things that makes God righteous.

The rich man was in "torment" in Hades. ( Luke 16:23; Luke 16:28; )
Anyone who receives the mark of the beast will be in torment forever. ( Rev 14:11; )
Jesus says some people will go into "eternal" punishment. Matt 25:46;

God is love. But love doesn't mean letting people do whatever they want with no consequences.
People who doubt these things... don't really know God.

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Lanolin]

Righteous and holy doesnt always mean nice or pleasant. But its still good. Jesus suffering on the cross was not nice or pleasant...but what everyone else meant for evil, God meant it for good. Jesus blood paid for our sin, he suffered and died YET HE ROSE ON THE THIRD DAY.

People somehow miss the resurrection power. Jesus died and rose again.

He tasted death and lived. This is the core belief, everything else is without faith. If you believe Jesus died for nothing and is still dead your faith is in vain. That is where you will go too if your belief is that God did not raise Jesus, his only begotten son. God has made a way that we can access the tree of life through Jesus! he is the way the truth and the life. So we need not fear hell. Hell isnt a place for believers, its for the wicked and the demons, so we, who are clothed in Jesus' righteousness will not go there.

Advice, if you are concerned..check in with Jesus. If you dont have any clothes check your wardrobe God gave you the gift when you believed. It's there already you just need to wear it!

 

[KingJ]

I think some people don't know what "good" is. There is a HUGE difference between always "nice" and always "good".

This is the God that caused painful sores to come upon the Egyptians.
This is the God that killed the first-born of the Egyptians.
Then drowned them in the Red Sea.
This is the God that knocked down the walls of Jericho.
The God that rained fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt.
This is the God that destroyed just about all of mankind by a flood.
The same God who commanded that mediums and spiritist should be stoned. ( Lev 20:27; )
He commanded the Israelites to stone anyone who blasphemed the name of God. ( Lev 24:16; )
This is the God that told the Jews to kill every woman, child, infant and animal of the Amaleks ( 1 Sam 15:3; )
The same God that killed 70,000 men in a pestilence ( 1 Chron 21:14; )
The same God that struck down Annanias and Sapphira.
The same God that will allow people to be tormented for 5 months ( Rev 9:5; )
A God that brings a "painful" destruction. ( Micah 2:10; )
The same God that will cause men to chew on their tongues because they are in so much pain. ( Rev 16:10; )

15. There are dozens more of these verses. This doesn't make God evil. In fact this is one of the very things that makes God righteous.

16. The rich man was in "torment" in Hades. ( Luke 16:23; Luke 16:28; )
17. Anyone who receives the mark of the beast will be in torment forever. ( Rev 14:11; )
18. Jesus says some people will go into "eternal" punishment. Matt 25:46;

God is love. But love doesn't mean letting people do whatever they want with no consequences.
People who doubt these things... don't really know God.

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I agree with you. The only issue I have is that if we present these scriptures in isolation as you have, an unsaved person reading it can be forgiven for thinking God and us are delusional on what is good. These scriptures have to always be accompanied by a short explanation. This is not wielding the word with skill.

Plagues that hit the Egyptians started off light and ended with all first born been taken to heaven. Plagues always occur at increasing levels of severity. They are God's last means of warning and trying to get people to repent and stop their grievous sinning. It is a merciful and patient means of dealing with the extremely wicked.

Those that were drowned, burnt in Sodom, lots wife turned to salt, Annanias and Sapphira all died quick deaths. It is paramount that we grasp they were not tortured to death. Scripture says the flames in Sodom were high. The city was burnt quickly. God judges our hearts at an absolute depth of intent and when we cross a line, He removes us. This has been done by Him from day 1. There are many examples in scripture.

The stoning to death of mediums, adulterers, murderers was Mosaic law only to the Jews. God's thinking was graphic + instant death. He wanted the Jews to grasp His hatred of the particular sin. He wanted them to stand out among heathens. They were more accountable for their actions in that they had prophets, Levites, a temple with an arc and literally saw Him protecting them throughout their history. It is of paramount importance that we grasp Jonah did not take Mosaic law to Nineveh. He just told them to repent and stop their grievous sins.

Torment in Hades and hell is real, I do not want to blur that issue in the slightest. I just want us to focus on what torment it is Luke 13:28, they weeped and gnashed their teeth because they looked up and saw the prophets and saints. They grasped they were cast out for eternity.

With respect to the bowl judgements. These are the last of the last plagues. As such they are the harshest. They increase in severity. This is the first and the last time God will ever do such. God wants to send the clearest message possible. Eternal separation awaits. All must grasp how upset He is with their grievous sins. These people that will be alive at this point will be the most wicked / the hardest nuts to crack. We must grasp that God is trying to crack them because He wants them to repent and be in heaven. He wants a reason to have them justified.

 

[Lanolin]

The thing about hell is that it is for eternity since heaven is eternity with God. Hell is eternity WITHOUT God and one actually cannot cross from hell to heaven when theres a huge chasm in between. The only way anyone can get to heaven is to literally get to the cross! Jesus has made a way.

Jesus gave us a parable in Luke 16:19-31 The rich man was in torment in hades (hell) because he could not enter heaven. He looked up and saw Lazarus the beggar now enjoying paradise with Abraham. But he could not get across...however he did ask for his brothers to be warned. Send someone to warn them! Why dont they listen to moses and the prophets? Even if someone rose from the dead they would not have listened says abraham. (Remember abraham was referring to the Israelites who were under the old covenant to keep the mosaic law).

Reading this parable now believers will probably chuckle at the irony of it all.

Well look Jesus now HAS risen from the dead. So torment yourself no longer with thoughts of hell...you've been warned by Jesus Himself.

 

[KerimF]

We need to be careful about "requiring God to meet our expectations and requirements". He is still God even if He isn't what we want or imagine Him to be.

I understand that a slave (a pagan worshiper) has to follow his master (his god) without any prior expectations of whom his master (god) is.
Did Jesus tell me I am a slave of God? In the contrary, he reminds me that I am a son of God (equivalent to the son of Heaven; born of the Divine Love Spirit).
On earth, the essence of a 'real' son/prince has to be similar, to a good degree, to the one of his father/king.

I personally don't apply any sort of human justice on others. So any known image that shows God as a ruling being (Master, King or alike) is surely not for me.

This is why I was able to see myself in the image of God as revealed by Jesus Christ only. It is about the Unlimited Unconditional Love.

But let us not forget that the various kinds of 'human justice' (hence including the teachings of the Old Testament) are always important to those who are created of a living flesh 'only'.

One may recall the saying:
'Tell me who is your god, I tell you who you are'

Jesus Himself is our creator.... He speaks quite a bit about hell.

Yes, Jesus used speaking of the 'Everlasting Fire'... by which things are returned to their raw state (the state before birth in case of the living things, including the human living fleshes).

Jesus is the way as you mentioned... He is our Savior... what is He saving us from?

He saved me from the natural ignorance that I, like all other babies in the world, was born with.
On the other hand, Jesus teachings are not important to (actually not needed by) those who have a living flesh only to take care of.

 

[Lanolin]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh?

 

[KerimF]

{Matthew 10:28}
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus said this, but He also knows that who can love and trust God to no limit, has no reason, at all, to fear God in any way.

So, in the saying above and to me in the least, the expression 'fear him' doesn't refer to God.
Indeed, I personally fear the world's top deceivers who try their best to let me stop feeding my soul (by living the divine unconditional love towards all others). And although their wars (usually created in the name of justice, peace, freedom or else... in order to save the world as they claim) may anytime kill my body, they should try much harder to convince me that I have enemies to fear other than them; the powerful rich men of {Matthew 19:24} ... I fear them by simply not believing anything they may say in public because they have no right, if they are representing (hired by) powerful rich men, to tell the common people any complete truth, also telling the truth is always against their interests/businesses if they are the powerful rich men themselves.