• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Our Creator and Hell

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Member
I like hearing your comments about this question for which the answer I usually hear, from various theists, is a big ‘NO’:

Is it possible for someone to believe the existence of Creator (called differently though) with no sort of afterlife 'eternal' punishment (usually called Hell)?


On my side and after studying carefully Jesus Message, as revealed by Jesus in person, God (the Father and the Son, unified perfectly by the Holy Spirit) doesn’t have this kind of Hell. Otherwise, it was impossible for me to believe, as I do now, that Jesus Christ is indeed the Truth, the Way and the Light I was looking for.

Kerim
 
Active
It is only through a personal experience with Jesus that reveals the truth and then belief. It is common knowledge that Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven!
 
Active
Hi Kerim

There are many scriptures on hell. There is no debate as to its existence. The debate to be had is only on what exactly transpires there.

We can agree with God's rationale on the need for a hell. The wicked need to be isolated from the good. The bible talks about this in John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. and Matt 13:49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

God has never expected us to be perfect. Just hate what is evil Rom 12:9, Rom 7:15 at a certain depth of intent Psalm 51:17, Jer 17:9-11. Repent sincerely and The Holy Spirit will reveal Jesus to us 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. We will then be washed clean from sin and be among the righteous.

There is a lot of speculation off of a few verses on what will happen in hell. We cannot ignore any scripture but we can ignore what people claim they saw in a NDE (near death experience) for example.

The only important thing to grasp on any unknown future, be it heaven or hell is the nature of God.

Whatever future event we envision surely has to consider the nature of the Being orchestrating it? Lets say for example the devil were to be in power. What would heaven be like? hell? Many envision a boring heaven and a cruel hell, when neither are characteristics of our God according to scripture.

If we just chew and meditate on these scriptures describing God, we will and should completely relax and trust that the future of all of us, heaven or hell are in His good hands (The best hands possible).

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not know love does not know God, as God is love (Many don't know God)
1 John 1:5 There is no darkness in God at all (Note the ''at all'', God is incapable of anything evil!)
John 15:13 No greater love then to lay your life down for your friends (God made us ''all' His friends when He did this)
Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good (Note the ''because'' and the fact that David would not say we should give thanks if God was...evil)

God loves all, He hates nobody. Because He loves even the wicked, He makes a home for them where they won't be troubled by the light. This place can only be described by God as a place of darkness. A place no good person would want to be.
 
Active
Well of course Jesus doesnt have this hell, because he isnt there, He's the King of Heaven. Hell is satans residence.
 
Loyal
I like hearing your comments about this question for which the answer I usually hear, from various theists, is a big ‘NO’:

Is it possible for someone to believe the existence of Creator (called differently though) with no sort of afterlife 'eternal' punishment (usually called Hell)?
What is it God wants from us? Complete surrender of everything that He has given to us. What has He not given to us? All of God's creation was made "very good" [Gen 1:31], but God added to you and me a power, which men name "freewill". It simple means that we have the power to say "No" to God. When we did that the first time we began the corruption of ourselves. To God we were already dead, but we still had hope. We were already unable to tolerate Him in His fullness. He was and is the Consuming Fire. Is this not what He meant when He spoke to Moses here?

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Exo 33:20

The "old" man that we are and have been since the corruption began that cannot see God, that cannot tolerate the Consuming fire that He is. To allow us hope, God has given us a hedge for a period of "time". The Hope is found in Jesus. We acknowledge it and take hold of Him, a new man is born to replace the old one that is already dead before God will finally die completely without hope. Those who never found Jesus, when the dirt is thrown over their faces will die completely and finally. That is their end. They have had their hell here as men and they will have their final hell under the ground and they become the ground itself again. No eternal life and no eternal pain for them, simply death unending with nothingness.

No eternal torment here.

Those have found the "new" man have had opened up through Jesus real Hope for themselves. Herein lies the possibility of eternal life without pain, unending Life with the Master.

On my side and after studying carefully Jesus Message, as revealed by Jesus in person, God (the Father and the Son, unified perfectly by the Holy Spirit) doesn’t have this kind of Hell. Otherwise, it was impossible for me to believe, as I do now, that Jesus Christ is indeed the Truth, the Way and the Light I was looking for.

Kerim
Amen Kerim! Give God the glory!
 
Loyal
Jesus Himself is our creator.... He speaks quite a bit about hell.

Otherwise, it was impossible for me to believe, as I do now
We need to be careful about "requiring God to meet our expectations and requirements". He is still God even if He isn't what
we want or imagine Him to be.

Jesus is the way as you mentioned... He is our Savior... what is He saving us from?
 
Active
Jesus Himself is our creator.... He speaks quite a bit about hell.

We need to be careful about "requiring God to meet our expectations and requirements". He is still God even if He isn't what
we want or imagine Him to be.

Jesus is the way as you mentioned... He is our Savior... what is He saving us from?
We also need to be careful of making assumptions of God just because He is God. As Calvinists do on His omniscience.

Jesus saves us from death. Death is a place outside of His presence. Adam and Eve entered death when they left Eden. If Jesus never died for our sins, we would all be in Hades. Those that repented of their sins, albeit they were mortal sins as David's were, would be in Abrahams bosom in Hades or similar.

Don't leave the question open for one to assume Jesus saves us from the lake of fire. Jesus saves absolutely nobody from hell / lake of fire. People choose to go to hell by choosing to love the darkness and reject the light John 3:19.

Hell is bad, no doubt. But as in earth VS Eden. Not as in Dante's inferno or the many books being written of NDE / nightmares people are having of hell.

We can safely believe that a good God with no darkness in Him at all can and will do better then those humans who invented and signed the Geneva convention.

Why do people assume a good God is capable of what we would all agree is evil?

Would we ever assume God or any of His children would ever be capable of inventing or approving of the use of the brazen bull? There is no evidence in scripture of God ever torturing His enemy, yet some believe He will do so for the rest of eternity?



The worse thing about hell is going to be that you are not able to interact with the greatest, kindest, most generous, gentle, humble, loving being in existence and all of the good and caring saints and host of angels. You will be stuck with the wicked. This reality will hit hard and cause you to weep often and gnash your teeth in frustration Luke 13:28.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Member
I read your interesting replies but I am sorry for not having enough time or electricity, in the time being, to write back to each of you.
Thank you in advance for your understanding..
 
Member
...Is it possible for someone to believe the existence of Creator (called differently though) with no sort of afterlife 'eternal' punishment (usually called Hell)?...
A friendly atheist here.

Speaking as a strict materialist, it is sometimes fascinating to watch theists wrestle with the thorny conundrum of Hell, especially by the light of a belief in an omnibenevolent God.

The scriptural perspective on Hell, and the historical context whence it arose, is maddeningly more nebulous than many Christians claim, which is why these discussions are still so strident, persistent and diverse 2000 years after the events of the Gospels.

The Old Testament is, at best, ambiguous about the reality of any afterlife. This should not be surprising. The Mesopotamian culture of Abraham’s origin did not, at that time, include one. And he might not have even been able to make sense of it if God had told him. The central crisis in the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (the world’s oldest known story ever written down) is the hero’s quest for immortality out of dread that physical death is the end of existence. In the climax, he learns that only the gods can be immortal and that Man’s greatest reward is to live a joyful, celebrated life and to leave a legacy for which he will long be remembered. Lack of any chance of an afterlife is central to plot.

God’s behavior in the face of Able’s murder is consistent with a worldview that Able has been utterly exterminated, so too with the victims of the Flood. And all the benefits promised in God’s covenant with Abraham are quite worldly. There is no mention of any resurrection, eternal salvation, or potential for postmortem punishment.

Any inkling of a worldview including an afterlife doesn’t seem to start creeping into Jewish theology until the Babylonian exile (so, after the destruction of the first Temple), when Jews like Hillel were immersed in a Zoroastrian culture, one which did speak of eternal reward in an afterlife.

Jewish scripture remained mute on an afterlife after the return from exile, and the rebuilding and re-consecration of the Temple. But they finally knew there was an afterlife and that it was something to worry about. So, one religious perspective on the exile is that it was necessary to educate Jewish society on the existence and crucial nature of the afterworld.

Speaking purely for myself, the existence or nonexistence of any version of Hell has nothing to do with my lack of faith. If I DID believe, I (think I) would be convinced that God, being absolutely loving and absolutely just, would assign everyone exactly that type of afterlife they rightly deserved. I would trust that, so long as one deserved mercy and love, all they would or could meet in the afterlife is mercy and love. If the Bible is true, it is impossible to NOT receive your due measure of salvation or punishment.

Working backward from that, if any particular version of Hell is real, a just and pious person need not worry over its particulars. But, alternatively, it is just possible that there is no real “Hell,” as such, but that dogma and debate about it in our world performs some vital function only God can know.
 
Loyal
I tend to agree with you about the old testament. The word "hell" (hades) doesn't even exist in the old testament.

But Jesus came to give us clarification and insight. Jesus mentions hades 5 times..
(Matt 11:23; Matt 16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; and Rev 1:18; )
He also mentioned hell 11 times.
(Matt 5:22; Matt 5:29-30; Matt 10:28; Matt 18:9; Matt 23:15; Matt 23:33; Mark 9:43; Mark 9:45; Mark 9:47; Luke 15:5; )

The new testament also mentions the lake of fire (which burns with brimstone) Rev 19:20; Rev 21:8;

especially by the light of a belief in an omnibenevolent God.
I for one do not believe that. ( Mal 1:3; Rom 9:13; )
I believe God hates anyone who rejects or gives their inheritance away (Esau sold his for a bowl of soup)
This includes the heavenly inheritance of eternal life.

Every years thousand of people go court to be tried here in the US. Some are set free, but many have jail time.
If the offense is serious enough they get sent to prison. In some states they may even be sentenced to death.

Some people are obviously innocent, they have very good alibis. Some people are obviously guilty. They are caught red-handed
or even of video these days. Then there are many who are absolved or imprisoned because of circumstantial evidence or a witness
testimony. A good judge doesn't set everyone free. Even if they promise not to "do it again". A good judge is fair judge.
If the guilty received the same reward as the innocent, he wouldn't be much of a judge at all. (unfortunately a lot of liberalism
wants it to be this way)

If it was you being tried for murder or rape, I don't think you would want to go to prison if you were innocent.
On the other hand, even if you were guilty you probably wouldn't want to go. But at least you could understand why you ended up there.

A God that sends everyone to heaven isn't much of a God at all. The Bible makes it clear in literally hundreds of places where the wicked
and evil will end up. To some degree we are all wicked and evil, of course this is where Jesus comes in and gives us grace by paying
the price for our sins. But even then, we can't go on being wicked. Repentance is required.

Some prisoners are set free and given a second chance (I understand OJ Simpson is being set free today). We are given a second chance as well.
By the same degree a judge that sends everyone to prison (even if some are innocent) is not a very good judge either. I'm glad God who
judges us isn't this way.

But the bottom lines is.... most will reject Jesus and the inheritance that comes with that. ( Matt 7:13; )
Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

This price for this is...
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now of course you're an atheist and don't believe any of this and that's between you and God. But don't think that God loves everything and and everyone
and because of that no one is going to hell. The fact that many ARE going to hell is what makes Him a righteous God.
 
Member
...But don't think that God loves everything and and everyone
and because of that no one is going to hell. The fact that many ARE going to hell is what makes Him a righteous God.
Ah, yes. Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that if God exists he must be so forgiving that he would never send anyone to Hell. All I mean is, if he has ordered the universe in a certain way, including a punishment or reward in an afterlife, there is no getting around the strictures of that order. When I say the righteous have nothing to fear, it is because of their righteousness. Certainly anyone who sins knowingly, without proper attonement and acceptance of Christ, will earn their just desserts as well.
 
Loyal
Hell was originally created for the fallen angels (Satan).

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Hell itself is a temporary place. The verses above say the angels are being held there until the day of judgment.
Hell and everyone in it will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The "first death" is simply our physical death of the body. The "second death" is the lake of fire.

"The strictures of that order" may not have been the original plan, but it seems God always has a contingency.
Did God know Adam was going to fall? Possibly, but he had a contingency plan.. "just in case".

It's the same with Jesus... there were a great many things that couldn't happen until Jesus died.
Did God know Jesus was going to accept the cross? Probably (I don't doubt He knows the future).
But Jesus could have refused if He wanted to. Mankind was not "saved" until that moment, our fate was in the balance while
Jesus was in the garden praying "not my will but...."

The saints of the old testament were "hoping and believing" that a Messiah (Savior) would come. But they had to trust God because
it hadn't happened yet. Almost all of the old testament is a fore-shadowing of this... leading to Jesus.

In the old testament when the priests did sacrifices for in, they sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice on "the mercy seat". ( Lev 16:14-15; )
This was done once a year by the high-priest.
But that wasn't the real blood of Jesus, it was just the symbolic blood of animals meant to represent the coming Messiah.
The mercy seat on the ark on the covenant wasn't "the real" mercy seat in heaven either.
It was just a symbol to represent what happened when Jesus came.

One of the things Jesus did when He "died" (in a manner of speaking, hopefully you understand). Was sprinkle His blood on the mercy
seat in heaven to atone for our sins. The Holy Spirit couldn't be released until this happened. ( John 16:7; John 7:39; )

If none of that makes sense... look at it this way... every one understands what sin is. Even atheists. (why is that?)
But if there is no God, there are no consequences to sin. If there is a God... well then... (you know the rest).
 
Member
Hell was originally created for the fallen angels...
Hell itself is a temporary place. ...Hell and everyone in it will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire... every one understands what sin is. Even atheists. (why is that?).
As a focus group of one, I’ll admit that this atheist is aware of some of the behaviors that some Christians consider sinful. But I am also keenly aware there is no uniform consensus about this from Christian to Christian. An easy example is the consumption of any alcohol. Sin? Not sin? Depends on who you ask. And, while I happen to find certain things held to be sinful as wrong or unethical, there are many “sins” the sinfulness of which simply mystify me. Two of my favorite examples are praying on a polished floor or slaughtering an animal in view of any body of water. But, of course, I do not ascribe any special religious significance to any wrongful act or crime beyond their material harm and social culpability.

I do enjoy the scope, internal consistency and unflinching rigor of your understanding of the nature of Hell, B-A-C. Acknowledging all that, then, is there any aspect of it you find unfortunate, even if you think it must be necessary?

I personally don’t get particularly exercised over it, since (in my worldview) it is a subject no more or less threatening to me than any crisis in literature. But, if I DID believe, I think I would be quite stymied at the notion of eternal punishment… of any sort… for any wrongdoing performed during a finite, and all too often all too brief, earthly life. I am only an armchair philosopher, but I feel safe in saying I am as educated in the dogma of damnation as most Christians. And I still can’t square my own moral sense with the notion of plunging a soul into a lake of fire forever as a price, say, for unapologetically experiencing lust in adulthood.
 
Loyal
I do enjoy the scope, internal consistency and unflinching rigor of your understanding of the nature of Hell, B-A-C. Acknowledging all that, then, is there any aspect of it you find unfortunate, even if you think it must be necessary?
The main thing... is that people choose to go there.

But, if I DID believe, I think I would be quite stymied at the notion of eternal punishment… of any sort… for any wrongdoing performed during a finite, and all too often all too brief, earthly life.
We can do a lot of damage in a short time. I saw on the news this morning a shooting in Las Vegas. Apparently 50 dead and 200 wounded.
That is a lot of people. But no where near 6 or 7 million that Hitler had killed. Estimates for Mao Zedong say he is responsible for 45 million deaths.
I suppose many of these were by torture or some other violent type of death. According to the CDC over 650,000 abortions were done in the US in 2013.
(That's not counting the ones not reported by the CDC). I'm guessing many of these people were killed simply because they didn't follow a specific
ideology or religion or political view. The aborted babies never got a chance to have a view on anything, and that's just one single year. Other years
or higher or lower, but always too many.

So should the people responsible for these things get a few days in jail? A $2,000 fine? Where do we draw the line? Even if say... we gave Mao Zedong year
for every life he had extinguished, that would be 45 million years. What is the value of a human life to God? Maybe it's a lot more than one year.
If the average life expectancy is 65 years, 65 years x 45 million is a lot of years... (almost 3 trillion)

Now most people haven't killed very many people. (On the other hand there are over a half million abortions every years coming from someone).
But are they responsible for other people deaths in a less violent way? (Abortion, yes, but...)

From a Christian perspective... what about people forced to be Muslims (or die). What about people who are never able to hear about Jesus because
of school policy, or television media policy, or radio policy, or college policy, or even in some cases.... government policy. Now on one hand they aren't killing
millions of people violently every year. But they are causing millions of people to face eternity without God, what about the porno industry? Recreational
drugs, recreational drinking. How many marriages have these things destroyed in the last century? How many lives have they destroyed?
Are these people just as responsible as Hitler, or Stalin or Zedong? How many years do we give them?

OK, so that's all fairly extreme... you probably haven't killed anyone. Do you deserve eternity in hell? (Not all Christian believe in eternal suffering).
God sent His son to die for your sins. To pay the price for the wrongs you have done.. even if they were just small mistakes (not mass killings).
He was beaten, whipped, nailed to a cross (how far was God willing to go for you?) just so you could be forgiven.

And you're going to reject that? Reject the fact that I gave my Son to die for you? How would you feel if someone killed someone or something you loved?
And then told you they died for nothing. God is supposed to be OK with this? That makes Him righteous?

If God is real.. how many deaths are you responsible for? Maybe you haven't shot anyone with a gun... but how many people have heard what you say
or read what you've posted and though to themselves... "maybe there is no God". A few million years of pain may not be enough in some cases.
 
Active
As a focus group of one, I’ll admit that this atheist is aware of some of the behaviors that some Christians consider sinful. But I am also keenly aware there is no uniform consensus about this from Christian to Christian.
That is no train smash as there is this scripture:

1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

The key is to judge ourselves truthfully. Get on our knees and excuse or accuse ourselves before God in fear and trembling Phil 2:12 Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

So it is fine if one thinks venial sin X does not cause God as much offense as venial sin Y. But the issue for me / most should arise on mortal sins. Those sins God ordained via prophets worthy of being stoned to death.

How do you get on your knees and say ''God I am continually committing mortal sin X, please forgive me or don't judge me harshly because of these reasons....''. There is no such. If we are stuck in a mortal sin, we hate what is good, we hate what pleases God, we hate God.

Only in this day and age has certain mortal sins being accepted by many churches / Christians. It should make one worry. Not be confused.
 
Member
The main thing... is that people choose to go [to Hell].

We can do a lot of damage in a short time. ...

I’ll sidestep the tangential (albeit immensely important) issue of abortion except to acknowledge you are against abortion and I go down on record as pro-choice.

You lead me to think about three very complex and fundamental issues:

1. The purpose of postmortem punishment.
2. The appropriateness of its scale viz a viz the sins which lead to it.
3. Our obligations to God for the penance by-proxy of the Crucifixion.

First, I’ll admit I can only conceive of the rationale for any punishment in earthly terms. To wit: “punishment” in this world is intended either to remedy some wrong (paying a fine, repairing damages, serving an injured party), as a purely punitive measure of justice (you hurt someone so it is only fair that you suffer in-kind), or as a deterrent or corrective against bad behavior. I cannot think of any others, but please let me know if any come to mind. It is easy to see the deterrence in damnation – its deterrent purpose is explicit in Scripture and in popular dogma. Damnation’s role as a punitive sentence is also fairly obvious. However, I personally abhor punitive punishment for punishment’s own sake. This is not to say when I am wronged I can’t help a desire to know the one who has wronged me is somehow made to suffer as I have, but it neither necessarily remedies my injury nor necessarily prevents the same harm from the same party in the future. In any case, I consider my animal instinct to vengeance one of the uglier aspects of my personality and I contend that any benevolent creator deity would be immune to such petty needs. I assume you feel differently. If so, please explain.

In terms of scale of just punishment, first let me acknowledge the wide range of perspectives on what is meant by punishment in the afterlife. For simplicity’s sake, let’s allow a postmortem judgment that eventually results in eternal consignment to a lake of fire, and anyone who does not meet the criteria (forget for the moment their specifics) cannot escape such judgment. You mention Mao and Hitler as examples of humans worthy of punishment in the afterlife. Fair enough. Where is the fair justice of Mao suffering 46 million years, or even 46 million lifetimes of torture if, after that, he is still to suffer an eternity in Hell? Full disclosure, I am definitely on the list of people who would have met with Hitler’s “Final Solution.” It’s easy for me to say Hitler was horrible and should suffer forever and ever and ever. But, thinking about it seriously for a moment, I do not see how I or my deceased relatives or their memories are served by subjecting Hitler and his cadre to 6 million lifetimes of torture, much less eternity. To be honest, I find such wonton excess horrifying. And I flatter myself it is one happy thing that differentiates me from people like him. If the rules stipulate eternal damnation for the Holocaust, I would plead with God and Jesus on Hitler’s behalf for mercy. At the very least, limiting his punishment to a mere 6 million lifetimes. But, for Pete’s sake, not all of the rest of eternity.

And, while the many horrible things you list are, admittedly, just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to humanity’s record of cruelty, at least under the above-described regime, there is no scale of appropriateness according to the sinner’s sins. If God is real, then I admit I am a sinner. I think I’ve already sinned today. I’m almost sure I shall do so before I turn in tonight. But I do not commit genocide. I do not steal – at least not knowingly. And I combat injustice when and wherever I see it and I can. I am not afraid of Hell. But if I get there and I see Hitler at my elbow and my “reward” is every bit as long and punishing as his, I will be perplexed. And I will see injustice in it.

Finally, I come to the issue of penance by proxy. I’ll set aside all the usual skeptical canards about the Crucifixion. For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll accept that God is omnipotent and that he had only one human child and that was Jesus Christ. Also that God, knowing all, has always known all the sins I will commit during my lifetime. If my sins are truly mine, if I am to be at all judged by the sins I commit by my own free will, then he can’t absolve me of my responsibility for them against my will. This is not a case of failed logic like, “Is God so mighty he can create a rock so big even he can’t lift it?” The guilt and responsibility of the wrongs I do are mine and I bear that burden. Period. Forgetting for the moment I had no conscious input into a state execution in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. If God came to me today and said, “Here’s my boy, Jesus. You know all that wicked stuff you’ve done? He’s going to be tortured to death and then I’ll forgive you for all of that.”

I know EXACTLY what my response would be (is), which is, “WHOA! PLEASE don’t. I mean, I’m bad, but there’s no reason anybody needs to be executed for it. Thank him for me. Very generous that he would even think of doing something so selfless. But tell him ‘absolutely not,’ and wish him well for me.”

As I understand, God’s reply, in essence, is, “Sorry. No. You get to choose, because you have free will, but my kid’s still going to die. And unless you accept responsibility for that, you’ll spend the rest of time in a lake of fire.”

Naturally, correct me if I’ve gotten that very wrong. But, if I am not, my final response is still: OK.
 
Active
God is real.

You said to correct you if you are wrong. Well you wrote 'if God is real, then I admit I'm a sinner'

So correction- there is no 'if'. God is real!!!!

You just need to talk to Him and not assume he's saying stuff in your own imagination. Check with the Bible that's His Word to you, me and all of us.

If you are a parent then yes, you need to take responisbilty for your children and to raise them right. See God is our Father, he doesnt want that any of us perish. He does punish the wicked and judge everyone by their deeds...thats just about being a loving parent. He also leads and guides us and has authority just like a parent, especially a Dad is meant to.

It really only takes maybe less than a minute on your hands and knees to talk to God and admit you are a sinner. And God can put you right because He doesnt want you to sin anymore.

Many of us are still learning what Jesus did for us..but only He can set us free from a life of sin and eventual death to eternal life. Eternal life is the gift of salvation, dont knock it! Praise the Lord he loves us so much that he doesnt want anybody to go to hell, far from Him but wants to invite us into His Kingdom to be with us forever.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Active
In terms of scale of just punishment, first let me acknowledge the wide range of perspectives on what is meant by punishment in the afterlife. For simplicity’s sake, let’s allow a postmortem judgment that eventually results in eternal consignment to a lake of fire, and anyone who does not meet the criteria (forget for the moment their specifics) cannot escape such judgment. You mention Mao and Hitler as examples of humans worthy of punishment in the afterlife. Fair enough. Where is the fair justice of Mao suffering 46 million years, or even 46 million lifetimes of torture if, after that, he is still to suffer an eternity in Hell? Full disclosure, I am definitely on the list of people who would have met with Hitler’s “Final Solution.” It’s easy for me to say Hitler was horrible and should suffer forever and ever and ever. But, thinking about it seriously for a moment, I do not see how I or my deceased relatives or their memories are served by subjecting Hitler and his cadre to 6 million lifetimes of torture, much less eternity. To be honest, I find such wonton excess horrifying. And I flatter myself it is one happy thing that differentiates me from people like him. If the rules stipulate eternal damnation for the Holocaust, I would plead with God and Jesus on Hitler’s behalf for mercy. At the very least, limiting his punishment to a mere 6 million lifetimes. But, for Pete’s sake, not all of the rest of eternity.
I agree with your rationale. I do believe many Christians don't consider chapters like 1 Cor 6 when thinking about judgement and hell. In the first few verses Paul urges us to judge properly. To settle matters among ourselves as we should be able to judge and discern better then others. Paul goes on to hammer the point home by saying in verse 3 ''we will judge angels''.

So I agree. It is insane to think the punishment of eternal torture ever be one handed out by a saint (let alone God with no darkness in Him at all). The angels we judge will be judged properly. Now we can have a good indication ''right now'' of what is an appropriate punishment. Christians according to scripture are new creations 2 Cor 5:17. So, with my renewed mind, no torture whatsoever from me as my post 9 explains. God is not one day gonna be like '''baaaam, surprise surprise...I am evil and love torture'''.

But a harsh reality / absolutely and sadly inescapable is eternal separation. You cannot have one sold out to pedophilia for example in heaven. Jesus makes it crystal clear that the devil has been sinning since the beginning. He doesn't want to stop sinning! 1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning since the beginning. The devils sin hit a grievous level and that got him removed from heaven.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
 
Member
...You said to correct you if you are wrong. Well you wrote 'if God is real, then I admit I'm a sinner' So correction- there is no 'if'. God is real!!!!...
Fair enough. I stand corrected.

:smile:

...thats just about being a loving parent....

As for punishing one’s children, as a parent I do discipline and punish my children. But there is definite purpose to it, and that purpose is not “justice.” My wife and I discipline our children exclusively to rear them as considerate, compassionate people for their own benefit and that of the community in which we live. I don’t think I could ever force myself to punish them for the sole objective that they receive punishment out of some debt they owe the cosmos. And I do not find anything admirable in any parent who does. Discipline is my duty as a parent in order to teach them, in hope they will consequently live better lives. But, except as a deterrence, permanent sentencing to Hell doesn’t seem to offer any such opportunity for rehabilitation.

And as for taking responsibility for my children’s actions, my personal take on that is, I myself, am responsible for any of their transgressions until such time as they are mature enough to assume that responsibility for themselves. This means, if there is restitution to be made, I consider myself bound to make it, and I do. This strikes me as being at odds with a notion that God takes responsibility for the humans he has created and, in light of that, punishes them and not himself.

Thoughts?
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Christ4Ever Devotionals 0
W Bible Discussions 0
Chad Devotionals 0

Similar threads


Top