Where in History are we to place the rule of Lucifer on earth?
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Loyal
Consider this verse:
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31
Could the evil Lucifer you speak about have existed prior to that verse when everything created was "very good"?
For certainly God did create everything:
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" Col 1:16
And then comes the 3rd chapter of Genesis with a serpent in place as a tempter. Was the tempter created in chapter 2 of Genesis?
"Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Gen 3:1
So if everything is explained when did the following casting out occur and who was cast out?
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev 12:9
Loyal
Brother how could the "temper" be created in Gen 2 when all the Angels of God were present before God created the earth?
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you know.
Job 38:5 Who measured it? I am sure you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
Job 38:6 What was it built on? Who laid its most important stone?
Job 38:7 When it happened, the morning stars sang together. All of the angels shouted with joy. (NiRV)
Loyal
And if Jesus is the foundation of the little bit of earth [rather than planet Earth] that formed the first man? Where were we when it happened, so then "tell me, if you know"?
Who indeed? Not me and not you for sure so I am careful about drawing conclusions on what I have heard in he interpretations of men!
And if it was built on the chief corner stone, Jesus, the Head, and we, the saints of God, are the Body of it?
Perhaps, Jesus was born! The Promises of the Body and the Bride of Christ were initiated.
Loyal
Brother this is what I am asking you. Lucifer could not have been ruling in his Kingdom at the same time Adam was in the garden, for he was already a fallen Angel in Genesis chapter one. Lucifer was there when God created the earth along with all the angels. So, when was Lucifer's rule in earths history? Is there any mention of it in any Genesis account?
Active
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Strong's Hebrew 1966
1 Occurrence
helel: a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: helel
Short Definition: morning
I don't think this "shining one" is Satan for several reasons starting with what Jesus said.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus makes it pretty clear that Satan had no other role before the beginning.
Loyal
This is a good scripture, and I do believe it is talking about Lucifer who is also known as "the bright, and morning star". However, Lucifer did sin from the "beginning" telling us that his rule on earth must have been some where between the time the heavens and earth were created in Genesis 1:1 to ware we see God starting to restore the earth from some cataclysmic event that brought the earth to become "void", and "without form" the Genesis 1:2
Active
The actual Hebrew bə-nê ’ĕ-lō-hîm =Strong's 1121.is "sons" from ben=son
The closest translation would actually be son's of God.
Interestingly enough God tells Job that he knows all these things.
Job 38:21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Maybe Job was one of those sons of the living God in eternity.
Active
I'm not sure what you mean unless lucifer was Adam.But that would be after the the fifth day.
Loyal
Adam, is not Lucifer. Lucifer was a Angel created by God who left his purpose God created him to do, and went astray taking other angles with him in a revolt against God.
His rule was on earth, and he wanted more than what God gave him, so he ascended to the throne of God to try and take more, yet he was cast back down to earth by God.
What I am trying to discover is when did Lucifer (also known as the serpent, Satan) have his rule on earth. There is not mentioned of it anywhere in the Genesis account, so it had to be at a time before Adam's rule from the garden of Eden.
Active
Oh.I thought you had already read that I don't believe Satan is Lucifer because Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
I don't think it's mentioned for a reason.
Loyal
the name "Lucifer" means : "morning star", the name "Satan" means " accuser", the name "Devil" also means "accuser". Lucifer went from, being the morning star, to known as the "power of darkness," He went from something good to now the accuser of all that is called good. These are all the same being.
Active
But jesus did not mention went from something,he said murderer "from the beginning".
Since there is no account of this event that happened at a time that is not mentioned I really have to stretch to see a connection.
If you use Ezekiel and Isaiah rants against men then it really does not match Satan at all.
I know most christians believe this pre-genesis story and I did also at one time so I won't hinder this thread any further.
Loyal
As I read it everything created in Genesis was "very good". Was not the very first sin described in Gen chapter 3? If Lucifer or satan was created in chapter 1 then sometime after 1:31 and prior to 3:1 he fell. Of course I lean toward the adversary being the carnal nature of man rather than some separate entity.
Loyal
Who was the first murderer? Was it Cain who killed Abel or was it Adam who effectively killed himself?
Loyal
The only problem is that Lucifer was not created in Genesis as he was there when God created the earth along with all the other angels as they shouted with joy as God laid it's foundation.
The very first sin is what Lucifer did, not what Adam did. Adam allowed sin to enter this world by his actions and inaction's. Lucifer is the "originator" of sin which is why Jesus said this......
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Notice: Jesus did not say, "you are of your father Adam"
Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
There has to be another place other than in Genesis 1:2 and on where Lucifer ruled and sinned.
.
Loyal
I do understand the difficulty which is why I said that I lean in a certain direction. I won't go into the details because I know your criticism of my position also has some merit to it. Other questions that may muddy the waters are these:
What is an angel?
What is heaven or what are the heavens and where are they if a physical location can be described?
What and where is hell?
Who is the adversary or who are the adversaries (satan, serpent, Lucifer, devil, etc.)?
Can any creature other than man sin?
Again I wouldn't want to get too much into the specifics of the cases on this, because too much cannot be clearly shown as being one way rather than another. I guess that is my point. Too many people want to teach as truth what they believe or what they speculate.
And are these verses in Ezekiel speaking of the prince or king of Tyrus? Why should we presume or conclude that it speaks of other than a flesh and blood man?
When looking at that question why should we presume or conclude that Isaiah 14:122 is speaking of other than a flesh and blood man, the king of Babylon?
Yes, if your belief of, who Lucifer is, is correct. I cannot definitely draw such a conclusion.
Loyal
Here we have a spiritual being (God) who has seen every thing and nothing is new to him. When God speaks through his Word he reveals to man what he has known and what he knows now. In Ezekiel the Lord is talking about two people, Lucifer (a spiritual being whom he created to be the Cherub that covers) and a flesh and blood person. The way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening in exactly the same today way using the same thinking processes , and motives, and this is what the Lord is showing man, if we are spiritually astute enough to see it.
Member
Can anyone show in the Torah the basis for a spiritual entity called Satan? No?
However, it is written "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:
there is none else." Deut 4:39 However, if God is a God of truth as written in Deuteronomy 32:4 then one could infer that Satan is a liar and in such as written in John 8:44, " He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
As written in Luke 4:8 or Mark 8:33 "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan:" Was Peter a supernatural entity?
Thus in John 8:48-49, "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?" [Of course it is written that Jesus was a Nazarene (Matt 2:23)]. "Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me."
However, it is written "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:
there is none else." Deut 4:39 However, if God is a God of truth as written in Deuteronomy 32:4 then one could infer that Satan is a liar and in such as written in John 8:44, " He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
As written in Luke 4:8 or Mark 8:33 "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan:" Was Peter a supernatural entity?
Thus in John 8:48-49, "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?" [Of course it is written that Jesus was a Nazarene (Matt 2:23)]. "Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me."