Where in History are we to place the rule of Lucifer on earth?

[Curtis]

Can anyone show in the Torah the basis for a spiritual entity called Satan? No?

However, it is written "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:
there is none else." Deut 4:39 However, if God is a God of truth as written in Deuteronomy 32:4 then one could infer that Satan is a liar and in such as written in John 8:44, " He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

As written in Luke 4:8 or Mark 8:33 "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan:" Was Peter a supernatural entity?

Thus in John 8:48-49, "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?" [Of course it is written that Jesus was a Nazarene (Matt 2:23)]. "Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me."

In this life you are either being influenced by God or the Devil, either light or darkness. There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as just you. Peter at the time he spoke was being influenced by the Devil and not God.
Peter had just said to Jesus that he was the Christ the Son of the living God, which was a "revelation" given by God the Father to Peter. Peter was not the Devil, he was just being influenced by him.

 

[WaterRock]

In this life you are either being influenced by God or the Devil, either light or darkness.

In order to be influenced by the devil then one has to believe in the actual existence of Satan. If the precept of the LORD holds he is the only Spirit in heaven above and the earth below then the reality of Satan is merely the imagination of man.

 

[Curtis]

In order to be influenced by the devil then one has to believe in the actual existence of Satan. If the precept of the LORD holds he is the only Spirit in heaven above and the earth below then the reality of Satan is merely the imagination of man.

You do not need to "believe" in something to be influenced by it. Unbelief is willful disobedience in what you know as true. To not believe is to believe in darkness in which all men find them self's at birth until having belief in the light which God gives.

 

[amadeus2]

amadeus2 said: ↑
in Ezekiel speaking of the prince or king of Tyrus? Why should we presume or conclude that it speaks of other than a flesh and blood man?

Curtis: Here we have a spiritual being (God) who has seen every thing and nothing is new to him. When God speaks through his Word he reveals to man what he has known and what he knows now. In Ezekiel the Lord is talking about two people, Lucifer (a spiritual being whom he created to be the Cherub that covers) and a flesh and blood person. The way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening in exactly the same today way using the same thinking processes , and motives, and this is what the Lord is showing man, if we are spiritually astute enough to see it.

Yes, the way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening. He was the shining one, a very bright light as Jesus is the Light. We also, you and I and many others, have similarly become such a light, but some of us have effectively put our light under a bushel [Matt 5:15] and have fallen. This is what Jesus saw:

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18

The falling from heaven could certainly be what occurred with Jimmy Swaggert some years ago. So where then is this heaven? I see three heavens described in scripture. Some may see seven.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, the way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening. He was the shining one, a very bright light as Jesus is the Light. We also, you and I and many others, have similarly become such a light, but some of us have effectively put our light under a bushel [Matt 5:15] and have fallen. This is what Jesus saw:

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18

The falling from heaven could certainly be what occurred with Jimmy Swaggert some years ago. So where then is this heaven? I see three heavens described in scripture. Some may see seven.

As I posted previously, I believe the Lord in his Word puts thoughts upon thoughts like an "overlay" so we can see the similarities between events that happened long ago to events happening now. As fast as the wicked spirits came out of people because of the power Jesus gave to the seventy whom he sent out, in the same way Lucifer fell from Heaven to earth as "lightning" when he rebelled against God.
Even though Jimmy Swaggart fell because of his sin that became known by all men, but is he completely destroyed? Is there forgiveness for him? I know he is still on TV preaching the Gospel. I don't watch him as I never really cared for his style of preaching.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yes, the way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening. He was the shining one, a very bright light as Jesus is the Light. We also, you and I and many others, have similarly become such a light, but some of us have effectively put our light under a bushel [Matt 5:15] and have fallen. This is what Jesus saw:

I follow you,that is close to my understanding.
I see that "now" is eternal because there is no beginning or end so we are also wandering stars for whom it is preserved the darkness the blackness forever.
We are in the light though and our conversation is among the stones of fire.

Do you have any insight as to why Jesus mentioned bushel?

 

[Curtis]

I follow you,that is close to my understanding.
I see that "now" is eternal because there is no beginning or end so we are also wandering stars for whom it is preserved the darkness the blackness forever.
We are in the light though and our conversation is among the stones of fire.

Do you have any insight as to why Jesus mentioned bushel?

Luke 11:33.. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

It does not make any sense to light a "candle" and put it somewhere where it does no good. God is the one who lights our candle, and then he places it on a candle stick for all to see.

Pro 20:27.. The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Psa 18:28.. For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

 

[WaterRock]

You do not need to "believe" in something to be influenced by it. Unbelief is willful disobedience in what you know as true. To not believe is to believe in darkness in which all men find them self's at birth until having belief in the light which God gives.

Likewise one can be influenced in something they believe even thought it doesn't exist.

Thus in Genesis 6:5 it is written, "and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." What is evil to a God of truth? Wouldn't it be a falsehood or lie? If asked what defiles the truth the obvious answer would be lie. What would be more an abomination to the truth than loving a lie. Isn't it written that man shall not loveth or maketh a lie? And of course as written in Revelations those those who maketh lie too will not be written in the Lamb's book of life either.

In such, the question I posed was if you could demonstrate in the Torah the basis for which a supernatural being called Satan is based? But as Thomas Paine is quoted as saying,
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

It does not make any sense to light a "candle" and put it somewhere where it does no good. God is the one who lights our candle, and then he places it on a candle stick for all to see.

Yes,thats fairly obvious but I have often wondered why Jesus said bushel,I mean that seems like a fire hazard at best and I have to wonder if bushel is symbolic or has a connection elsewhere because I can't think of why someone would even think to do that.

I don't mean to divert the thread I just thought maybe someone had some insight.

 

[Curtis]

Likewise one can be influenced in something they believe even thought it doesn't exist.

Thus in Genesis 6:5 it is written, "and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." What is evil to a God of truth? Wouldn't it be a falsehood or lie? If asked what defiles the truth the obvious answer would be lie. What would be more an abomination to the truth than loving a lie. Isn't it written that man shall not loveth or maketh a lie? And of course as written in Revelations those those who maketh lie too will not be written in the Lamb's book of life either.

In such, the question I posed was if you could demonstrate in the Torah the basis for which a supernatural being called Satan is based? But as Thomas Paine is quoted as saying,
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”

If the Devil does not want you to believe he is real, and you find your self not believing he is real, than you are doing exactly what he wants you to do.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If the Devil does not want you to believe he is real, and you find your self not believing he is real, than you are doing exactly what he wants you to do.

I see that as a former thing.
Isaiah 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
Jesus brought that new thing.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
We are seated in heavenly places and Satan was cast down to the earth.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Remember heaven is his throne and the earth his footstool.
So we are seated in heaven in him and standing here being footstool makers.
So if you believe in a literal Satan he would just be another servant.

When the Lord rebuked Peter and called him Satan he said it was because he savoured the things of man and not of God.
Believing the lie is savouring the things of man.

 

[amadeus2]

As I posted previously, I believe the Lord in his Word puts thoughts upon thoughts like an "overlay" so we can see the similarities between events that happened long ago to events happening now. As fast as the wicked spirits came out of people because of the power Jesus gave to the seventy whom he sent out, in the same way Lucifer fell from Heaven to earth as "lightning" when he rebelled against God.
Even though Jimmy Swaggart fell because of his sin that became known by all men, but is he completely destroyed? Is there forgiveness for him? I know he is still on TV preaching the Gospel. I don't watch him as I never really cared for his style of preaching.

I have seen all of scripture in effect as a parable of God's reality for men. I certainly so not pretend to understand what I have seen for it still remains for me as "through a glass darkly", but God is not finished with me so long as I continue to allow Him to work within me. I am not putting Jimmy down nor lifting him up. Rather he was simply an example that came to mind with regard to what the adversary is. Jesus overcame his adversary while still in his flesh. With the same tools we can also, but our job is likely unfinished. Jesus said, "I have overcome the world" and he also said, "It is finished".

 

[Brighthouse]

Would you ask the question in this way Curtis? When did the enemy begin to rule the earth?( 2 cor 4:4) There are 2 stands on this I am aware of ,the first, (Isaiah 14:12-17) Did this happen before God created the earth? Or after he already created the earth? I would fall along side before,I say this because God always does test,not tempts us,and what better test to the enemy then to show his own pride, he had to others,as to confirm why God gave him the left foot of fellowship. hehe

 

[amadeus2]

amadeus2 said: ↑
Yes, the way Lucifer fell and sinned is still happening. He was the shining one, a very bright light as Jesus is the Light. We also, you and I and many others, have similarly become such a light, but some of us have effectively put our light under a bushel [Matt 5:15] and have fallen. This is what Jesus saw:

Thiscrosshurts: I follow you,that is close to my understanding.
I see that "now" is eternal because there is no beginning or end so we are also wandering stars for whom it is preserved the darkness the blackness forever.
We are in the light though and our conversation is among the stones of fire.

Wandering without a goal until and if we have a vision. The vision is of the city that Abraham sought. If we do already have the right vision, how clear it is at the moment depends on where we have been standing and how much we have grown. Jesus who always had his Father's Word and never sinned, nonetheless, grew. Our way is or has been muddier, but if God be on our side, who can effectively stand against us?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"As John the Baptist put it:He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

Do you have any insight as to why Jesus mentioned bushel?

What happens to a lighted match or candle if you place an inverted bucket over it? Quickly the oxygen is exhausted and the flame goes out. As Paul put it:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

No man can take God, the "consuming fire" away from us, but we can most certainly take ourselves away from Him. It has always been that way:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

 

[amadeus2]

Yes,thats fairly obvious but I have often wondered why Jesus said bushel,I mean that seems like a fire hazard at best and I have to wonder if bushel is symbolic or has a connection elsewhere because I can't think of why someone would even think to do that.

I don't mean to divert the thread I just thought maybe someone had some insight.

I am no farmer, but I have grown a garden or two over the years. The bushel is the measured fruit of our labor. When we quench God's Spirit in us, we will have nothing good for what is good, but God? The Bible itself is full of potential because it was penned originally by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Without the quickening of the raw letter of scripture in a man that man will be unable to taste the Living Word of God. A person can read all of the Bible every month and even memorize the whole thing and still have a whole bushel of nothing if there is no quickening of the Spirit:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

 

[Curtis]

Would you ask the question in this way Curtis? When did the enemy begin to rule the earth?( 2 cor 4:4) There are 2 stands on this I am aware of ,the first, (Isaiah 14:12-17) Did this happen before God created the earth? Or after he already created the earth? I would fall along side before,I say this because God always does test,not tempts us,and what better test to the enemy then to show his own pride, he had to others,as to confirm why God gave him the left foot of fellowship. hehe

I believe Lucifer ruled on planet earth, but at a different time then what live now. We know God created Lucifer and all the other angels before God laid the foundation of the earth on which we now live. So there had to be another earth in another time before this one we are now living on. Lucifer had a Kingdom, and a "throne" from which he ruled and it was on this earth.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Lucifer could not ascend above the "stars" or above the "clouds" unless you are first below the stars, and clouds. His ascension to throne of God was his attempt "lay hold upon the light of God" which caused his falling to earth like lightning. There has never been a time on this present earth where these things happened, it had to before the earth "became void, and dark".

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I am no farmer, but I have grown a garden or two over the years. The bushel is the measured fruit of our labor. When we quench God's Spirit in us, we will have nothing good for what is good, but God? The Bible itself is full of potential because it was penned originally by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Without the quickening of the raw letter of scripture in a man that man will be unable to taste the Living Word of God. A person can read all of the Bible every month and even memorize the whole thing and still have a whole bushel of nothing if there is no quickening of the Spirit:

Excellent answer,thank you.
That answer just hit me this morning when I thought(or something in me) of how measurement determines limitation
and is not in the "now" of the vision that you speak of.
I think I understand what you mean by the raw letter(a love letter from life).
Scripture contains stories that show patterns that happen in cycles and cycles that show up in patterns.
I was looking at the bushel as a thing instead of a pattern that reveals the eternal.

 

[Brighthouse]

Interesting thought Curtis,but if this were so,then how could the enemy show Jesus himself all of the kingdom and there glory if it was not his to give?( matt 4:8-9) For if one does not rule,then one cannot offer this to others.2 cor 4:4 I was hoping you would address this part as well bro thanks!

 

[Curtis]

Interesting thought Curtis,but if this were so,then how could the enemy show Jesus himself all of the kingdom and there glory if it was not his to give?( matt 4:8-9) For if one does not rule,then one cannot offer this to others.2 cor 4:4 I was hoping you would address this part as well bro thanks!

Brother remember what the Apostle Paul said....

Rom 6:16.. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Who ever you obey, you become their servant or slave. Adam and Eve both yielded them self's over to the serpent, and because of that they became a slave to sin, where by giving the serpent the "authority" that God had given Adam to rule this earth. Satan even said so.....

Luke 4:5.. And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke 4:6.. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Through Adam's disobedience he handed over the "power" to the serpent what God gave Adam.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Satan did not receive his power from God but from Adam when yielded his authority to the serpent in the garden.
Remember he is darkness, and has no light within himself, and this darkness is what uses to prevent the light of the Gospel to be seen by those who are sitting in darkness. Only one problem, darkness can not over power the light of God, which is why we are to preach the Gospel that brings light.

 

[WaterRock]

Satan even said so.....

And that is what you consider proves that it is true? Did you hear it or just believe he said it?

Who ever you obey, you become their servant or slave. Adam and Eve both yielded them self's over to the serpent,

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8

Luke 4:5.. And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke 4:6.. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18