Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yes, the word saved seems to be used in a temporal sense in some passages and in an eternal sense in others. The context can help discern the correct sense, but context does not give us a 100% guarantee.

I agree,sometimes I see where someone says something fulfilled a prophecy and it seems a real leap to me.
Like the "this is that the prophet Joel spoke of" speech that peter gave after being accused of getting everyone drunk.
How did he equate being drunk with the pouring out of the spirit.I feel it was more revelation than context.

Wait! What? You know? I think both the one throwing the life preserver and the one grabbing hold of it did the saving. So now I'm at a loss to say what the difference might be. I think maybe both are necessary. What do you think?

In the natural I would agree.
In the spirit it looks different.
However I believe the apparent contradiction is defining something we have not yet considered.
I appreciate your time taken to provide substantive feedback.
Your seem good at juggling, sorting and generating ideas so I figured I could toss another load on the generator.

 

[Hopeful_One]

It seems your discussion has moved from the original topic about grace and faith to whether Jesus judges. I think there is some missing understanding here, in that there are different forms of judgment, not just one. As to giving final judgment upon a soul, Christ has reserved that to the Day of Judgment. But as to discerning right and wrong type of judgment, Jesus did this all the time, even as he preached and talked with people. He also instructed us to judge righteously:"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
John 7:24 (KJV) Some of his words are what modern preachers would call "judgmental" and condemn, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Matt 23:33 (KJV) But it is the modern preachers and churchgoers that are wrong in their judgment of the Son of God.
Neither did he in any way condemn the type of judgment that occurs in a court of law. On the contrary, His word in Deut. says, "And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. 17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's" Deut 1:16-17 (KJV)
Just what did Jesus mean when he said, "Judge not and you shall not be judged?" Obviously he was not saying what so many think, refusing to call evil evil and good good.

 

[Hopeful_One]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(Ephesians 2:8-10)

So I have a lot of questions about the meaning of this passage of scripture. I don't doubt it means we are saved by grace, nor through faith, nor apart from our own good deeds. I'm just wondering if the passage means we are saved through faith alone--through nothing else but faith.

Have you experienced this grace of God? If so, how?

 

[Travis]

It's something I heard a Reformed Theology apologist say. If you'd like, please explain why you don't like it.

I don't know. I know that if you give the devil and inch he will take a mile. I try not to ever give him an inch when I can.

OK, so what you said just helped me imagine something I'd never considered before. If you have time, please let me know what you think: Perhaps faith is trust that what one believes is real an true. So to be saved I might:

1. Trust not only God is real, and
2. Trust not only Christ died for my sins, but
3. Also trust what I must do in response to him

So in this scenario (whether it is imaginary or real, I do not yet know), the kind of faith that saves is the kind that believes not only in who Christ is and what he has done, but also what I must do, and the least that I must do is repent.

If this be true, then we are putting faith in Christ AND repentance. Hence, we are in fact saved by grace through faith alone!

What do you think? Might I be onto something?

I think faith definitely includes believing that if I throw myself at the mercies of God that he will save me. I believe that if I believe, and act upon that belief, that God will do what he promised to do, and save me from my sins. God's not doing it cause he owes me anything though. But, if I look back on such events at a later time, I will realize that it was God moving in me before I ever had any of those thoughts in the first place.

My head is starting to hurt thinking about all this.

This I do know though. The Christian life is a life of repentance. I don't think there is a single believer who ever lived who did not repent, and repent A LOT. But, that repentance was an outworking of faith. You can't have repentance without first having faith. Faith is on a different level than repentance.

I've never been to good at this whole splitting hairs thing, I usually end up cutting my fingers with a razor blade instead.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

It seems your discussion has moved from the original topic about grace and faith to whether Jesus judges. I think there is some missing understanding here, in that there are different forms of judgment, not just one. As to giving final judgment upon a soul, Christ has reserved that to the Day of Judgment. But as to discerning right and wrong type of judgment, Jesus did this all the time, even as he preached and talked with people. He also instructed us to judge righteously:"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
John 7:24 (KJV) Some of his words are what modern preachers would call "judgmental" and condemn, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Matt 23:33 (KJV) But it is the modern preachers and churchgoers that are wrong in their judgment of the Son of God.
Neither did he in any way condemn the type of judgment that occurs in a court of law. On the contrary, His word in Deut. says, "And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. 17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's" Deut 1:16-17 (KJV)
Just what did Jesus mean when he said, "Judge not and you shall not be judged?" Obviously he was not saying what so many think, refusing to call evil evil and good good.

Hi, hopeful. Yes I agree. Judgement can mean discerning the truth or providing some consequence for undesired behavior. I suppose the context of each passage helps to determine the intended meaning.

 

[Spockrates]

Have you experienced this grace of God? If so, how?

I've found that different people define God's grace in different ways. If you tell me how you define it I will understand what you are asking me to say.

 

[Spockrates]

I don't know. I know that if you give the devil and inch he will take a mile. I try not to ever give him an inch when I can.

Are you saying the idea that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin is something you have a feeling you should not discuss, though you don't know why? Or are you saying you do know why you don't like the idea, but you'd rather not say?

I'm asking not to pry, but because if the idea is a lie, I'd like to know why. I do my best not to be deceived. As Socrates said:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom ; I cannot trust myself. And I think that I ought to stop and ask myself What am I saying ? for there is nothing worse than self-deception — when the deceiver is always at home and always with you — it is quite terrible!
(Cratylus)
​

I think faith definitely includes believing that if I throw myself at the mercies of God that he will save me. I believe that if I believe, and act upon that belief, that God will do what he promised to do, and save me from my sins. God's not doing it cause he owes me anything though. But, if I look back on such events at a later time, I will realize that it was God moving in me before I ever had any of those thoughts in the first place.

I'd say Jesus agrees: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44).

My head is starting to hurt thinking about all this.

In the dialogue named Theatetus Socrates said the closest experience a man has to a woman's pain of giving birth is thinking clearly about and trying to articulate some deep truth. He said he took after his mother, who was a midwife. But instead of helping women give birth to infants, he helped men give birth to ideas.

This I do know though. The Christian life is a life of repentance. I don't think there is a single believer who ever lived who did not repent, and repent A LOT. But, that repentance was an outworking of faith. You can't have repentance without first having faith. Faith is on a different level than repentance.

Yes, but perhaps we touched on one exception--repenting of one's unbelief? This is not so evident in people like myself who cannot remember a time when I did not believe that God is and Jesus is the Son of God. But there are people who once were atheists, yet repented of that unbelief.

Even the Apostle Paul had another kind of repentance when he had a vision on the road to Damascus during his crusade to hunt down and kill Christians, there. I'm sure you are familiar with the account in Acts. He repented of his unbelief in who Christ was after hearing Jesus say, "Paul, why do you persecute me?"

When I think as logically as I'm able about this, it seems to me impossible to continue in a state of such unbelief, yet at the same time, believe! If faith is the antithesis of unbelief, then such repentance prior to faith is not only an option, it's a requirement.

But this is only true if repentance truly is only a change of mind. If repentance is a change of behavior, then I see no reason to say it is a requirement for faith.

Did I help ease your pain for the moment? Or is your head still pounding?

I've never been to good at this whole splitting hairs thing, I usually end up cutting my fingers with a razor blade instead.

Blessings,

Travis

All the more reason to make the attempt? As Socrates said, "We have nothing to lose but our ignorance!"

I find that not a few have a real fear of the pain answering my questions gives them. Some even become hostile when they find that some of their reasons why they believe are not living truths but stillborn lies. They'd rather bite me then let go of the lie they labored so hard to deliver!

But learning that a reason why one believes is not true in no way means what one believes is untrue. It simply means the believer must give birth to a better reason for why to believe that truth.

But what is better? To refuse to let go of a bad reason why to believe or to bring into one's world a good reason why to believe? My thought is that the former leads to doubt, but the latter will increase one's faith. Perhaps Paul would agree?

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
(Philippians 4:8)​

What do you think?

 

[Spockrates]

I agree,sometimes I see where someone says something fulfilled a prophecy and it seems a real leap to me.
Like the "this is that the prophet Joel spoke of" speech that peter gave after being accused of getting everyone drunk.
How did he equate being drunk with the pouring out of the spirit.I feel it was more revelation than context.

How so?

In the natural I would agree.
In the spirit it looks different.
However I believe the apparent contradiction is defining something we have not yet considered.

I guess there is much we haven't considered. But what is this something, something you'd like to consider now?

I appreciate your time taken to provide substantive feedback.
Your seem good at juggling, sorting and generating ideas so I figured I could toss another load on the generator.

Yeah, I suppose I'm not good at figuring things out myself, though sometimes I'm able to help others figure out a great deal for themselves, and I benefit by their discoveries.

Is there something specifically that you'd like to figure out? Maybe I can help.

 

[Dovegiven]

Are you saying the idea that repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin is something you have a feeling you should not discuss, though you don't know why? Or are you saying you do know why you don't like the idea, but you'd rather not say?

I'm asking not to pry, but because if the idea is a lie, I'd like to know why. I do my best not to be deceived. As Socrates said:
I have long been wondering at my own wisdom ; I cannot trust myself. And I think that I ought to stop and ask myself What am I saying ? for there is nothing worse than self-deception — when the deceiver is always at home and always with you — it is quite terrible!(Cratylus)

The more we speak out of our mind, the less we speak from the heart. like Jesus spoke what he heard spiritually, quoting the word, using the wisdom, knowledge and understanding the Father gave him.

​

I'd say Jesus agrees: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44).

Let's reexamine how Jesus (and of course John the Baptist) introduced the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. What came first?
Matthew 4:17 (KJV) 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Jews knew what "repent" meant. Hearing that word should evoke a question of Jesus like "Repent? How? John has been preaching that too, baptizing some, but how does a man stop sinning?"
A more detailed account is in Mark 1:15 (KJV) 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
As with people John preached to and made disciples, they at least submitted to be willing to repent. People know they are sinners, but simply need information to be convinced they can possibly stop sinning. We know the great difficulty trying that apart from the Way. The gospel preached offers ongoing instructions for those willing and increasingly determined to overcome sin in them. Because we live in a world of sin, there is no ignoring the problem. We must overcome it. God is patient, willing to help us along, starting with the Holy Spirit coming alongside when the gospel is preached, convincing us to respond to the call of the Father to follow Jesus. At that moment the presence of God alone affords opportunity to have faith to believe, to trust, to rely upon the unseen Person of the gospel message. Upon agreeing with that persuasion, we confess our belief with our mouth from the heart (inner man/spirit), uttering announcement of being born again, like a newborn baby is no longer silent, but cries out at birth. What has happened spiritually is confirmed in public with baptism, and that starting willingness to repent and believe the gospel continues on in us.

In the dialogue named Theatetus Socrates said the closest experience a man has to a woman's pain of giving birth is thinking clearly about and trying to articulate some deep truth. He said he took after his mother, who was a midwife. But instead of helping women give birth to infants, he helped men give birth to ideas.

From about 1980-1998 I "birthed" about 40 visible kidney stones (some the size of a shelled peanut), in the habit of staying dehydrated working outdoors where I had to choose between carrying all needed equipment or water. Over those years doctors, nurses, and mothers assured me they knew my pain, equal to giving birth to a large baby. The pain shuts the brain down, taking me off to La La Land.

Yes, but perhaps we touched on one exception--repenting of one's unbelief? This is not so evident in people like myself who cannot remember a time when I did not believe that God is and Jesus is the Son of God. But there are people who once were atheists, yet repented of that unbelief.

Even the Apostle Paul had another kind of repentance when he had a vision on the road to Damascus during his crusade to hunt down and kill Christians, there. I'm sure you are familiar with the account in Acts. He repented of his unbelief in who Christ was after hearing Jesus say, "Paul, why do you persecute me?"

Mark 9:23-24 (KJV) 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Even in unbelief the Lord will help if we confess that. Jesus' preference was for his disciples to pay attention to training, not operating in unconfessed unbelief. Jesus prayed and fasted to be prepared, and so should have they been better prepared. If believing Jesus they would have been doing his words and following his example.

The apostles continued their lack of attention in the garden while Jesus prayed moments before being arrested in Mark 14:36-42 (KJV)
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

The Lord wants and must be directly involved in our unbelief so that we know exactly what to believe. Along the way he provides what is needed to judge our own sin, and walk away from it. He will only do that for people who are committed to that possibility. Some might be willing to go just so far with Jesus, just thinking about repentance, and their need to repent of sin, believing he is Lord, but fall short by not confessing that before people and doing his word. That keeps people in a state of unproductive unbelief while they are only willing to believe and do some of the gospel.

 

[B-A-C]

Let's reexamine how Jesus (and of course John the Baptist) introduced the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. What came first?
Matthew 4:17 (KJV) 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Jews knew what "repent" meant. Hearing that word should evoke a question of Jesus like "Repent? How? John has been preaching that too, baptizing some, but how does a man stop sinning?"
A more detailed account is in Mark 1:15 (KJV) 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
As with people John preached to and made disciples, they at least submitted to be willing to repent. People know they are sinners, but simply need information to be convinced they can possibly stop sinning. We know the great difficulty trying that apart from the Way. The gospel preached offers ongoing instructions for those willing and increasingly determined to overcome sin in them. Because we live in a world of sin, there is no ignoring the problem. We must overcome it. God is patient, willing to help us along, starting with the Holy Spirit coming alongside when the gospel is preached, convincing us to respond to the call of the Father to follow Jesus. At that moment the presence of God alone affords opportunity to have faith to believe, to trust, to rely upon the unseen Person of the gospel message. Upon agreeing with that persuasion, we confess our belief with our mouth from the heart (inner man/spirit), uttering announcement of being born again, like a newborn baby is no longer silent, but cries out at birth. What has happened spiritually is confirmed in public with baptism, and that starting willingness to repent and believe the gospel continues on in us.

I personally think this has a lot to do with how certain people view sanctification.
For example. I'm am as saved, and forgiven as I'm ever going to be. I am as sanctified at the moment of salvation as I'm ever going to be.
Therefore, whatever sins I have been doing since I got saved must be acceptable with God.

If on the other hand you view sanctification as an on-going process.... (I will use my self as an example here)
Before I got saved I sinned virtually all the time (I didn't care about sin, I didn't even really recognize it as sin).
After I got saved I quit doing most of the obvious external things (things people could see). Within a year I quit drinking and cursing.
I quit looking at pornography, and doing lifestyle (addictive) sins, womanizing and being flirty with females. That was a pretty big change for me.
Over the next couple of years, I started noticing other things about my self. I tended to exaggerate (lie) a lot. I still had a lot
of selfishness and pride. These were things most people couldn't see in me unless they were close to me.
Over the next few years I got much more involved in church, started praying more and reading the Bible quite a bit more.
I started praying differently. I got married and treated this wife much different from the previous one.

I would say before I got saved I sinned about 100% of the time.
A year or two after I got saved this dropped to 50 or 60%.
Now 25 years later, there are days that go by I feel pretty good about. I don't think I've conquered the flesh yet.
(Yes I know, Jesus did and I'm thankful for that) but I sin a lot less than I used to. Maybe 5 or 10% as much as I did
25 years ago. And while I still sin sometimes, sin is not master over me. Addictive sins are gone.

Maybe you are right, maybe one day we can get to the point where we no longer sin at all... but I haven't gotten there yet.
But even so... I am a lot different than I was 25 years ago.

 

[Spockrates]

The more we speak out of our mind, the less we speak from the heart. like Jesus spoke what he heard spiritually, quoting the word, using the wisdom, knowledge and understanding the Father gave him.

Not sure I understand. What is the difference between heart and mind?

​

Let's reexamine how Jesus (and of course John the Baptist) introduced the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. What came first?
Matthew 4:17 (KJV) 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Jews knew what "repent" meant. Hearing that word should evoke a question of Jesus like "Repent? How? John has been preaching that too, baptizing some, but how does a man stop sinning?"
A more detailed account is in Mark 1:15 (KJV) 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
As with people John preached to and made disciples, they at least submitted to be willing to repent. People know they are sinners, but simply need information to be convinced they can possibly stop sinning. We know the great difficulty trying that apart from the Way. The gospel preached offers ongoing instructions for those willing and increasingly determined to overcome sin in them. Because we live in a world of sin, there is no ignoring the problem. We must overcome it. God is patient, willing to help us along, starting with the Holy Spirit coming alongside when the gospel is preached, convincing us to respond to the call of the Father to follow Jesus. At that moment the presence of God alone affords opportunity to have faith to believe, to trust, to rely upon the unseen Person of the gospel message. Upon agreeing with that persuasion, we confess our belief with our mouth from the heart (inner man/spirit), uttering announcement of being born again, like a newborn baby is no longer silent, but cries out at birth. What has happened spiritually is confirmed in public with baptism, and that starting willingness to repent and believe the gospel continues on in us.

So I'm not sure from your statement what you believe about repentance. Is it a change of mind or a change of action? Is it thought or deed? What does your heart tell you?

 

[Dovegiven]

Not sure I understand. What is the difference between heart and mind?

​

So I'm not sure from your statement what you believe about repentance. Is it a change of mind or a change of action? Is it thought or deed? What does your heart tell you?

We have a flesh mind, centered in the brain, what we were born with, developed throughout our lives with natural knowledge. The "soul" of man is there. It's that consciousness that relates naturally to the "flesh". with which we have access to memory, emotions, "philio" love, reason, logic, contact with the environment, etc. I am a spirit that possesses a soul that lives in my body. Only a born again spirit man (inner man), the spiritual "you" can fathom "agape" (the God kind of love) love. My "inner man" is likened in scripture to that "knowing"part of me created in the image and likeness of God, centered "as" in the heart organ, in the center of my "being". God likes to refer to that since the heart pumps life giving blood through the body, while the soul (mind) is in the brain. It's God's desire to bless and to save spirit, soul, and body of man.

I am born again, so my once spiritually dead inner man that couldn't relate to the Holy Spirit with only the help of my carnal (soul) mind has been renewed in Christ, but my mind has taken many years to catch up. I've "known" God spiritually, not wasn't up to speed mentally concerning the things of God.

When born again I received the mind of Christ. That doesn't mean I had all knowledge of him or the gospel that first day or until now. I like to think of it as getting my last new laptop. It has a huge advantage over the capabilities and memory over the last laptop. There was very little help for running Windows 8 then. I learned a lot from the intuitive helps that pop up, like the Holy Spirit comes to my aid often. At times I resorted back to the old machine when time was lacking to figure out the rules. So in a sense I was "double-minded between W XP and W 8. I kept studying and doing until I have used the W8 entirely, giving my old laptop away. Like that I immersed myself into the Bible many years, activating that mind of Christ in me with knowledge afforded by the Spirit of God in me giving me spiritual understanding that my natural mind couldn't possibly figure out otherwise. I still encounter mysteries in the new mind, and still find in it some carnal thinking that has to be put down, so I like all of us must continually resist following through on temptation, avoiding sin, not deliberately sinning.

Ephesians 3:14-19 (KJV)
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Dovegiven]

I personally think this has a lot to do with how certain people view sanctification.
For example. I'm am as saved, and forgiven as I'm ever going to be. I am as sanctified at the moment of salvation as I'm ever going to be.
Therefore, whatever sins I have been doing since I got saved must be acceptable with God.

If on the other hand you view sanctification as an on-going process....

I believe the latter. We are sanctified instantly upon being born again, then further sanctified through use of that which was set apart to usefulness in the Kingdom of Heaven.

We might "sanctify" a golden cup for a spiritual use, and it will remain that way if not ever used for some natural purpose. But if that cup is never used at all, just left sitting on a shelf, then what purpose in having a sanctified cup? Upon its spiritual use from time to time it's being sanctified again and again, taking on more importance among those setting it apart.

 

[Spockrates]

We have a flesh mind, centered in the brain, what we were born with, developed throughout our lives with natural knowledge. The "soul" of man is there. It's that consciousness that relates naturally to the "flesh". with which we have access to memory, emotions, "philio" love, reason, logic, contact with the environment, etc. I am a spirit that possesses a soul that lives in my body. Only a born again spirit man (inner man), the spiritual "you" can fathom "agape" (the God kind of love) love. My "inner man" is likened in scripture to that "knowing"part of me created in the image and likeness of God, centered "as" in the heart organ, in the center of my "being". God likes to refer to that since the heart pumps life giving blood through the body, while the soul (mind) is in the brain. It's God's desire to bless and to save spirit, soul, and body of man.

I am born again, so my once spiritually dead inner man that couldn't relate to the Holy Spirit with only the help of my carnal (soul) mind has been renewed in Christ, but my mind has taken many years to catch up. I've "known" God spiritually, not wasn't up to speed mentally concerning the things of God.

When born again I received the mind of Christ. That doesn't mean I had all knowledge of him or the gospel that first day or until now. I like to think of it as getting my last new laptop. It has a huge advantage over the capabilities and memory over the last laptop. There was very little help for running Windows 8 then. I learned a lot from the intuitive helps that pop up, like the Holy Spirit comes to my aid often. At times I resorted back to the old machine when time was lacking to figure out the rules. So in a sense I was "double-minded between W XP and W 8. I kept studying and doing until I have used the W8 entirely, giving my old laptop away. Like that I immersed myself into the Bible many years, activating that mind of Christ in me with knowledge afforded by the Spirit of God in me giving me spiritual understanding that my natural mind couldn't possibly figure out otherwise. I still encounter mysteries in the new mind, and still find in it some carnal thinking that has to be put down, so I like all of us must continually resist following through on temptation, avoiding sin, not deliberately sinning.

Ephesians 3:14-19 (KJV)
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Yes, and this passage comes to mind:

23 We preach Christ crucified--a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,24 but to those whom God has called--both Jews and Greeks--Christ [is] the power of God and the wisdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 1)​

Is it possible, perhaps that Paul was speaking literally and Christ himself is the wisdom we possess?

But I'm not sure how that all works and hope you might help me figure it out. Correct me if I'm wrong--and I likely am--but I'm thinking, maybe you are speaking of the mind of Christ and the spiritual heart as one and the same. If that is so, then do you think some thoughts you or I think are not our own? That is, are some of my thoughts not thought by me or some of your thoughts not thought by you?

​

 

[Dovegiven]

Yes, and this passage comes to mind:
23 We preach Christ crucified--a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,24 but to those whom God has called--both Jews and Greeks--Christ [is] the power of God and the wisdom of God.(1 Corinthians 1)
Is it possible, perhaps that Paul was speaking literally and Christ himself is the wisdom we possess?
But I'm not sure how that all works and hope you might help me figure it out. Correct me if I'm wrong--and I likely am--but I'm thinking, maybe you are speaking of the mind of Christ and the spiritual heart as one and the same. If that is so, then do you think some thoughts you or I think are not our own? That is, are some of my thoughts not thought by me or some of your thoughts not thought by you?

It might seem "high minded", but my goal is to get to where Jesus was about what he said and did as much as I can comprehend by the Spirit, speaking and doing what Father God says and does. Of course Jesus did that for us and much more, in a sense, but he was fully a man. He gave enough direct commandments to leave me without excuse for not looking to live that way. I can attest that at 70 years of age it's a lot easier to abandon the flesh now than when a young man full of hormones and foolishness. But I've had a lot of retrospect, knowing I missed the mark of righteousness all along the first half of my life so far, without excuse before God. I'm very glad he turned me around and steadily guided me my latter half.

So yes, God actually expects us to increase in the wisdom of God in Christ. There remains a competition though, between carnal mind and the mind of Christ. My natural mind is still there. I remember former attitudes towards sin, and now know God's attitude. But since that isn't comprehended by the "natural man", it couldn't be something the circuitry in my natural brain could generate by thinking it out. It can't comprehend the spiritual, at all. But as the Spirit indwells us, literally in us who believe on Christ, "I" agreed with Him that my reborn spirit man will compel my natural man (soul) to yield to the word of God, thereby all of "Me" shall be saved, spirit man, natural man, and body. My spirit man is already set, even as I continue believing, following Jesus as he directs. My soul (mind) is being sanctified unto salvation up to when I die. After I die I will be raised, my body glorified, so that this identity I wear shall be made eternal and perfect, that all who knew me will recognize me, and I them. I know that because Jesus appeared to the apostles after his resurrection, and they recognized him. I'll see him as he was and is and shall be.

Ephesians 4:17-27 (KJV)
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

Now I hope you can see in verse 24 Christ is "in us" by the Holy Spirit such that God creates another person in us, a new inner man, reckoning that our former "old inner man" is dead. Christ is not created in us. The Spirit comes into us, fully God, Ambassador of the Godhead, of which Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and remains in heaven sitting next to Father God. The old man is reckoned dead, but we continue on with contaminated thinking, what we here call "stinkin' thinkin', that must be phased out ASAP. We do that through feasting on (uploading, as in data, applications, along with intuitive help) the word of God. Don't let that old zombie sinner climb out of the grave, wanting you to carry it around. Kill it, bury it, ignore it, defeat it once and for all is a big task, but a light burden in Christ.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

But I'm not sure how that all works and hope you might help me figure it out. Correct me if I'm wrong--and I likely am--but I'm thinking, maybe you are speaking of the mind of Christ and the spiritual heart as one and the same. If that is so, then do you think some thoughts you or I think are not our own? That is, are some of my thoughts not thought by me or some of your thoughts not thought by you?

I see it that way,every cell in your body is a fractal of you so you have nations(organs of cells) of individual cells living in you and who are you.
Every gland in our body is a sort of brain so the body is a community of organs communicating with each other and all are you.
In a transplant operation there is a danger of rejection because little parts on the outside of every cell have identity markers.

All thoughts have already been thought,there is nothing new under the sun.
We map paths and courses and follow patterns and cycles and cycles of patterns and patterns of cycle.


Dovegiven's description in post 113 is very close to what I see.
I have found many ways to compare things to computers so I agree that there are upgrades available.
The biggest is DOS to windows because we have left the command line structure of
moving data to a simple icon representing already available command lines stored in libraries..
The speed of data manipulation is increased 1000 fold and sometimes 100000.

On a certain level an icon is one but it is made of many words
One word on a computer is many binary digits
The binary digit itself is only one in three manifestations.
Those are 0-1-space
Thats one with a nothing and a lack of 1 or nothing.
These three agree that there is only one.
The three make one whole of something
One "is",One is not and one never was(sound familiar)
The formula manifests as positive negative and neutral in electricity because negative is common or ground and neutral is like ground,and is ground in some systems.only positive is something but it could not be defined without the two thieves neutral and ground.
Jesus is the "one" whom God sent.

God takes a simple formula and expands it in endless levels of diversity,variety and
complexity.

 

[Dovegiven]

DOS was all we had "back then". I bought a Sinclair 2000, then found the only things it would do were what you wrote in DOS. It was actually simple. That falls right in line with the simplicity of answering Sockrates's "That is, are some of my thoughts not thought by me or some of your thoughts not thought by you?"

It all boils down to communicating rightly.
John 10:24-31 (KJV)
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Unregenerated people dread hearing anything from God, especially Jesus, who makes a relationship with God quite personal. Backsliders dread hearing from the Lord. Disciples of Jesus ought to relish hearing from him! He does still speak to us, certainly does to me, not in an audible voice, but like right now I'm hearing much from him, far more than I can type, so it's probably mostly intended for me, not folks here. I want the Lord to put the thoughts of wisdom in me, rather than shoulder responsibility to teach wisdom out of my own thinking. The reason is I can't do that on my own. Like suing DOS, on my own with no training out there, the mightiest thing I did in the course of a whole year on that Sinclair was to write a Ping Pong game. I hit the pinnacle and put the thing away. Left to my own I'd have picked the Bible up a few times then put it down never to pick it up again. But when God began writing those 'binaries and commands' in me, the Bible, and Jesus, and loving neighbor took.

 

[Spockrates]

It might seem "high minded", but my goal is to get to where Jesus was about what he said and did as much as I can comprehend by the Spirit, speaking and doing what Father God says and does. Of course Jesus did that for us and much more, in a sense, but he was fully a man. He gave enough direct commandments to leave me without excuse for not looking to live that way. I can attest that at 70 years of age it's a lot easier to abandon the flesh now than when a young man full of hormones and foolishness. But I've had a lot of retrospect, knowing I missed the mark of righteousness all along the first half of my life so far, without excuse before God. I'm very glad he turned me around and steadily guided me my latter half.

So yes, God actually expects us to increase in the wisdom of God in Christ. There remains a competition though, between carnal mind and the mind of Christ. My natural mind is still there. I remember former attitudes towards sin, and now know God's attitude. But since that isn't comprehended by the "natural man", it couldn't be something the circuitry in my natural brain could generate by thinking it out. It can't comprehend the spiritual, at all. But as the Spirit indwells us, literally in us who believe on Christ, "I" agreed with Him that my reborn spirit man will compel my natural man (soul) to yield to the word of God, thereby all of "Me" shall be saved, spirit man, natural man, and body. My spirit man is already set, even as I continue believing, following Jesus as he directs. My soul (mind) is being sanctified unto salvation up to when I die. After I die I will be raised, my body glorified, so that this identity I wear shall be made eternal and perfect, that all who knew me will recognize me, and I them. I know that because Jesus appeared to the apostles after his resurrection, and they recognized him. I'll see him as he was and is and shall be.

Ephesians 4:17-27 (KJV)
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

Now I hope you can see in verse 24 Christ is "in us" by the Holy Spirit such that God creates another person in us, a new inner man, reckoning that our former "old inner man" is dead. Christ is not created in us. The Spirit comes into us, fully God, Ambassador of the Godhead, of which Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and remains in heaven sitting next to Father God. The old man is reckoned dead, but we continue on with contaminated thinking, what we here call "stinkin' thinkin', that must be phased out ASAP. We do that through feasting on (uploading, as in data, applications, along with intuitive help) the word of God. Don't let that old zombie sinner climb out of the grave, wanting you to carry it around. Kill it, bury it, ignore it, defeat it once and for all is a big task, but a light burden in Christ.

At this point we are temporarily putting aside trying to answer the question of the opening post (are we saved through faith alone, or through faith and through something more?) and we are turning to answer the question: How do we correctly interpret the intended meanings of scripture?

What I hear you saying is the new you has a virtual private network with God, or at least a connection to his Internet cloud. When you read a passage of scripture you don't quite comprehend, all you have to do is receive the data via a download, and there you have it! Instant answers to your questions and certainty that what you have received is true.

But I wonder if some things Christians download are not true. I work for a technology business, creating websites and testing credit card and electronic check software. We are extremely security conscious, because we know there are many threats in the digitally-connected world. Computers and payment card devices can be hacked and infected with malicious code downloaded to them. They then do what they should not do--uploading the cardholder information to the hackers who infected them so they can use it to make purchases without the cardholder's knowledge.

So I wonder if our thoughts are like that. Sometimes we think thiughts we download from Christ's Internet cloud, and we correctly discern the truth. Other times our thoughts have been hacked and infected with a Trojan Horse virus, masquerading as the truth. Sounknown to us, we download lies, instead of truth. We let such code run, thinking it not a threat, and like a computer virus it infects all of the data we know, or even takes control! And we are unaware of our infection, because we think ourselves secure behind some imaginary firewall and incapable of being so easily deceived.

So I wonder how close to the truth this analogy might be, Dovegiven. Do you think there is no truth to it, and true Christians are immune to lies? Or do you think there is some truth to it, and you are not immune to deception, and you must--even after living so long as a Christian--be ever villigent to discover deception whenever it tries to infect your thoughts?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So I wonder if our thoughts are like that. Sometimes we think that which we download from Christ's Internet cloud, and we correctly discern the truth. Other times our souls have been hacked, or infected with a Trojan Horse virus, masquerading as the truth, so unknown to us, we download lies, instead of truth. We let such code run, thinking it not a threat, and like a computer virus it infects all of the data we know, or even takes control! And we are unaware of our infection, because we are deceived.

I see it the other way,We were totally dominated by spyware, adware and other malware causing redirects to spoofed websites where more malware is added.

God's word acts like a trojan(actually an anti-malware) that sets up a server on your hard drive and downloads new definitions to methodically
remove the malware.The system is so infected that the malware can't be removed all at once.
Several restarts may be needed(from glory to glory) and we find our selves able to access programs that were always there but hidden and bound.
We come up through many layers of deception.Once a recovered program is available to be used we still need to learn how to use it.

Some enjoyed or are still addicted to the faked websites so they purposely go looking for it..

Computer to human analogy
Computer hardware= flesh
OS=soul
Programs=spirits
The mind would be the computer operator

Does that seem feasible?

 

[Spockrates]

I see it the other way,We were totally dominated by spyware, adware and other malware causing redirects to spoofed websites where more malware is added.

God's word acts like a trojan(actually an anti-malware) that sets up a server on your hard drive and downloads new definitions to methodically
remove the malware.The system is so infected that the malware can't be removed all at once.
Several restarts may be needed(from glory to glory) and we find our selves able to access programs that were always there but hidden and bound.
We come up through many layers of deception.Once a recovered program is available to be used we still need to learn how to use it.

Some enjoyed or are still addicted to the faked websites so they purposely go looking for it..

Computer to human analogy
Computer hardware= flesh
OS=soul
Programs=spirits
The mind would be the computer operator

Does that seem feasible?

Sounds logical to me. The software was created perfect--the original and intended human condition, or Adam and Eve, if you like. A virus infected the code and took over like a disease or cancer takes over an infected body--sin entered into the human condition, altering our thoughts, words and deeds, or Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, if you like.

Becoming a Christian--or being born again, or born from above--is like downloading and installing antivirus software and running a complete system scan. But I think we three agree that the virus removal is not complete. Infected code remains, so our operating system AND software programs or apps do not run as the creator of our original code intended.

So how do you and I know when a thought we have is as God intended and when a thought we have is corrupted code? How do we know when the remaining computer viruses rear their ugly heads?

This, I think, is my dilemma. As Paul writes:

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitfulworkers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
(2 Corinthians 11)​

You see? When it comes to Satan--whether he is literal or symbolic I do not know--it seems the deceiving viruses he unleashes on the world are not necessarily transmitted directly to the hosts from him or his deceiving agents, but perhaps are instead transmitted as computer viruses--from host to host, or computer to computer. That is the lies that we believe come from the words spoken or written by others who are infected.

And I think that although God is completely capable of speaking directly to your thoughts or mine, he also does choose to use others to speak his mind to us. If he did not, then why would we have any Bible teachers, apologists and preachers at all?

But since we rely on those God chose to be our teachers, we run the risk of being taught by teachers who are deceivers, though for no fault of their own. For they themselves are deceived.

Do you think I'm deceived in this idea about deception, or have I correctly conveyed the mind of Christ?