Is Love the Greatest?

[RJ]

RJ:

Thank you for the reply. In response, I'd say you are correct. The Socratic method is only as good as the motives of the person using it. Socrates had confrontations with Stoic philosophers who used his method for the evil purpose of winning arguments even when they knew that for which they argued was untrue. Many lawyers and politicians were corrupted by these protagonists of Socrates.

But there is a more noble use of the method, that being a way to separate wheat from chaff, good reasons to believe from poor ones. If a dialog reveals that a reason for believing something is not logical, it does not necessarily mean what is believed is untrue. It might only mean there must be a better reason why what is believed is true.

Forgive me for trying your patience, and I won't take any more of your time. Before you leave, I'd like to say one thing. John wrote to us:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

(1 John‬ *4‬:*1‬)

If there is a better way than the Socratic method to test the spirits of the reasons why people believe, I honestly don't know what that way is.

If there is a better way than the Socratic method to test the spirits of the reasons why people believe, I honestly don't know what that way is.

• You know, a true "Born Again" Christian knows better and wouldn't make such a rediculous statement!
• If I were you, I would pray for Holy Spirit discernment and drop your philosophical approach, which could lead to failure and bondage to untruth!

 

[Spockrates]

If there is a better way than the Socratic method to test the spirits of the reasons why people believe, I honestly don't know what that way is.
You know, a true "Born Again" Christian, a person with the spirit of God dwelling in them wouldn't make such a rediculous statement!

Perhaps I'm deceived. How should a true born again Christian test the spirits and discern which are from God and which are not? What method should such a person use other than asking a biblical teacher why he believes his interpretation of a passage of scripture is correct? Should one never ask why another believes?

 

[RJ]

Perhaps I'm deceived. How should a true born again Christian test the spirits and discern which are from God and which are not? What method should such a person use other than asking a biblical teacher why he believes his interpretation of a passage of scripture is correct? Should one never ask why another believes?

This is the whole point and you shouldn't have to ask that question. A true Christian has the spirit of God in them, hence born of the spirit or "Born Again". It is not your job to discern spirits but that of the Holy Spirit in you...pay attention and let him do his work in you. Always allow him to bare his fruit in you....it is not your works but his through you.

 

[Spockrates]

This is the whole point and you shouldn't have to ask that question. A true Christian has the spirit of God in them, hence born of the spirit or "Born Again". It is not your job to discern spirits but that of the Holy Spirit in you...pay attention and let him do his work in you. Always allow him to bare his fruit in you....it is not your works but his through you.

I don't yet see why it is true that I should not test the spirits. Or are you saying testing the spirits does not mean the same as trying to discern whether something someone tells me is true? What is John saying?

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

(*1 John‬ *4‬:*1)

 

[RJ]

I don't yet see why it is true that I should not test the spirits. Or are you saying testing the spirits does not mean the same as trying to discern whether something someone tells me is true? What is John saying?

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

(*1 John‬ *4‬:*1)

I don't know how else to explain it. You are not to test the spirits but allow the Holy Spirit to test them for you and give you discernment. With out Christ in you, you can do nothing! Without works your faith is dead. The Bible insn't saying your works but the works of the Holy Spirit in you.....it is all of him and none of you, though you are the branch that bares his fruit!

 

[Spockrates]

I don't know how else to explain it. You are not to test the spirits but allow the Holy Spirit to test them for you and give you discernment. With out Christ in you, you can do nothing! Without works your faith is dead. The Bible insn't saying your works but the works of the Holy Spirit in you.....it is all of him and none of you, though you are the branch that bares his fruit!

So John says: "Dear friends...test the spirits... ." But you say: "You are not to test the spirits... ." Whose advice should I follow?

 

[Spockrates]

Are you trying to say, RJ that I should do as John says, but not attempt to do it on my own? I should test the spirits, but also ask the Holy Spirit to guide my search and provide the truth I seek?

 

[RJ]

So John says: "Dear friends...test the spirits... ." But you say: "You are not to test the spirits... ." Whose advice should I follow?

I never said you are not to test the spirits or test the truth as what John means. John is talking to and about True Christians. As a true Christian and with Christ "in you", you will allow him to do the testing for you ( as I tried to explain already), coupled with the inerrant word of God, you will be doing as Johns states. If you are not a true "Born Again" Christian, you won't undertand.
When where you born again?

 

[Spockrates]

I never said you are not to test the spirits or test the truth as what John means. John is talking to and about True Christians. As a true Christian and with Christ "in you", you will allow him to do the testing for you ( as I tried to explain already), coupled with the inerrant word of God, you will be doing as Johns states. If you are not a true "Born Again" Christian, you won't undertand.
When where you born again?

Yes, I was born again, before 1990.

So it must have been a typo, then. It's an honest mistake. You wrote, "You are not to test the spirits," when you meant to write, "You are to test the spirits." And I should let the Holy Spirit help me test the spirits, using God's word. Am I better understanding you?

 

[RJ]

Yes, I was born again, before 1990.

So it must have been a typo, then. It's an honest mistake. You wrote, "You are not to test the spirits," when you meant to write, "You are to test the spirits." And I should let the Holy Spirit help me test the spirits, using God's word. Am I better understanding you?

• No offense, I am not in the habit of playing games but, I have made no mistakes as you say.
• This is what I said verbatim: "I never said you are not to test the spirits or test the truth as what John means. John is talking to and about True Christians. As a true Christian and with Christ "in you", you will allow him to do the testing for you ( as I tried to explain already), coupled with the inerrant word of God, you will be doing as Johns states. If you are not a true "Born Again" Christian, you won't undertand.
  When where you born again?"
• No where in the above is a "typo"!
• One more time: It is the Holy Spirit in you that is the only one capable of testing the sprits, With out him in you, you personally can not determine what is Biblically true and Biblically not true.
• Obviously, you are not understanding me nor the word of God too well.

 

[Spockrates]

This is a test.

 

[Spockrates]

I don't know how else to explain it. You are not to test the spirits... .

RJ:

I was speaking of this reply of yours. You used the word not. But as I said, it was an honest mistake on your part, for you did not mean what you wrote. No biggie, and I'm not offended.

 

[RJ]

RJ:

I was speaking of this reply of yours. You used the word not. But as I said, it was an honest mistake on your part, for you did not mean what you wrote. No biggie, and I'm not offended.

LOL...I politely give up!

 

[Spockrates]

LOL...I politely give up!

LOL! Thanks for being such a good sport about it.

 

[Spockrates]

So I completely agree with you. We are to test the spirits, but not without the Holy Spirit. For apart from God we can accomplish nothing.

 

[james1523]

I hear what you are saying. Once God gives us spiritual discernment, we don't need to ask for more of it. We already have all we will ever need! So would you then say the new Christian who has a pure heart, at the moment she believes, has no less spiritual discernment than the mature Christian who has been continuously maintaining a pure heart for decades?

We were talking about spiritual comprehension (not spiritual discernment).( Comprehension is the ability to understand something. Discernment is the ability to judge something well.) No, a new Christian has less spiritual comprehension than a mature Christian, because there is the factor of spiritual growth. However it is possible for a new christian to never grow beyond an infant stage if they do not maintain a pure heart. Or it is possible for a person to grow to a mature Christian, and yet impurity of heart will cause stagnation in spiritual growth. The mature (yet stagnated) Christian will have more spiritual comprehension than the new Christian.

 

[Spockrates]

We were talking about spiritual comprehension (not spiritual discernment).( Comprehension is the ability to understand something. Discernment is the ability to judge something well.) No, a new Christian has less spiritual comprehension than a mature Christian, because there is the factor of spiritual growth. However it is possible for a new christian to never grow beyond an infant stage if they do not maintain a pure heart. Or it is possible for a person to grow to a mature Christian, and yet impurity of heart will cause stagnation in spiritual growth. The mature (yet stagnated) Christian will have more spiritual comprehension than the new Christian.

Well, it appears we were talking apples and oranges. For I thought you were telling me about spiritual discernment when you used the words spiritual comprehension! Please forgive my misunderstanding.

In the case of the opening post of this discussion, I'd say I'm trying to judge well whether love is greatest of all things I might desire. Brighthouse suggested that Wisdom is more desirable. So I am now trying to judge well which virtue is greater. Am I judging well what course of action I am actually taking?

 

[james1523]

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

(1 John‬ *4‬:*2-3)

Thank you James, but the Gnostics of yesterday are not necessarily the deceived of today. For example, compare what Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinists believe. They all believe Christ came in the flesh. Yet, give each of them the King James Bible and have them read the same passage, and the three might never agree on what the words actually mean.

Or take a Calvinist and a Baptist and a Anglican and do the same. Though all three believe in Christ and genuinely seek to maintain a pure heart, they also might never agree on the meaning of a specific scripture.

Since they don't agree, the words alone of the Bible are insufficient. So what does one of the three Christians have that the other two do not?

You've missed my point. You use the Scripture 1 John 4:1 to know that you should test the spirits. Yet you claim that the Scripture cannot be used to do the testing. However the principle of 1 John 4:2-3, is to test the spirits by applying known truths and facts about Christ, such as the Virgin birth, Christ's deity and sonship (in this example as related to the gnostics).

The Calvinist, Baptist and Anglican - you presume that one of them is right and the other two is wrong. However I can confidently say that all 3 of them are wrong because they lack something which neither of them has, and is the cause of them disagreeing on Scripture. Maybe you can take a guess at what it is, with Scripture if possible?

 

[james1523]

Well, it appears we were talking apples and oranges. For I thought you were telling me about spiritual discernment when you used the words spiritual comprehension! Please forgive my misunderstanding.

In the case of the opening post of this discussion, I'd say I'm trying to judge well whether love is greatest of all things I might desire. Brighthouse suggested that Wisdom is more desirable. So I am now trying to judge well which virtue is greater. Am I judging well what course of action I am actually taking?

No, neither love nor wisdom is the greatest of all things one might desire.

 

[Spockrates]

No, neither love nor wisdom is the greatest of all things one might desire.

Does King Solomon agree?

Blessed are those who find wisdom, those who gain understanding. For she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies. Nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs‬ 3:13-15‬)