How to Like Going to Church

[judge not]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross next to him, “Today, truly, you’ll be with Me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus didn't tell him he would have to wait a couple thousand years.

When I close my eyes for the last time, don't sing me a lullaby because I'm not sleeping! I'm going to be with Jesus in paradise! There will be no stops, no layovers, and no connecting flights!

I used to quote this reference myself to say AHA there's your proof-the thief on the cross story.
But the bible keeps telling us to prove all things that we read and that no man, not even Abraham or David, the patriarchs are in paradise-heaven.

But the problem was where did Jesus go that day on the cross-He went to the grave.
Jesus was dead-asleep in biblical vernacular- for three days and three nights and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that His death being human was any different from other human beings, with whom He shared a common nature, as Hebrews tells us.

It turns out a simple punctuation mark was the problem.
What Jesus actually said was " Truly, I say to you today, you shall (in the future when the Kingdom of God comes) be with me in Paradise.
the original Greek had no punctuation so it is left up to the translators to insert it where they deem proper according to their beliefs.
Jesus was dead in the grave or tomb for 3 days and 3 nights-Paradise is not some place Jesus went to that day.
after Jesus's resurrection from the dead He told Mary " do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father" john 20:17
Jesus was in the grave for those 3 days as part of His sign as the Messiah and to fulfill prophecy.
So He could not have meant that on the day of His death the thief would join Him in a place where He Himself would not be - heaven.

 

[DHC]

I used to quote this reference myself to say AHA there's your proof-the thief on the cross story.
But the bible keeps telling us to prove all things that we read and that no man, not even Abraham or David, the patriarchs are in paradise-heaven.

But the problem was where did Jesus go that day on the cross-He went to the grave.
Jesus was dead-asleep in biblical vernacular- for three days and three nights and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that His death being human
was any different from other human beings, with whom He shared a common nature, as Hebrews tells us.

It turns out a simple punctuation mark was the problem.
What Jesus actually said was " Truly, I say to you today, you shall (in the future when the Kingdom of God comes) be with me in Paradise.
the original Greek had no punctuation so it is left up to the translators to insert it where they deem proper according to their beliefs.
Jesus was dead in the grave or tomb for 3 days and 3 nights-Paradise is not some place Jesus went to that day.
after Jesus's resurrection from the dead He told Mary " do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father" john 20:17
Jesus was in the grave for those 3 days as part of His sign as the Messiah and to fulfill prophecy.
So He could not have meant that on the day of His death the thief would join Him in a place where He Himself would not be - heaven.

Hello Judge not.

There is a bit more to this topic than some people may be aware. When you fall asleep
in Jesus you will not be aware that you are dead of course. Therefore the idea that a
resurrection occurs as soon as you close your eyes for the last time may be correct.
There might not be any delay whatsoever, it could be instantaneous, for their is no time
keeping in the realm of the dead.

So when Jesus told the thief that today he would be in paradise, for all intent and
purpose, the thief would have closed his eyes on the cross. Then immediately would have
been raised up in Christ, the thief would have not noticed any delay at all. For there
was no delay, not even one earthly minute of delay.

Measurement of time in our understanding is not applicable in the domain of those
who are asleep. For those who are asleep are not conscious and therefore oblivious
to Greenwich mean time. Our time keeping only applies to us, the living inhabitants of
the earth, heaven is timeless and so is death.

Therefore the punctuation may in fact be correct, it may be that we do not understand
all things.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

There is a bit more to this topic than some people may be aware. When you fall asleep
in Jesus you will not be aware that you are dead of course. Therefore the idea that a
resurrection occurs as soon as you close your eyes for the last time may be correct.
There might not be any delay whatsoever, it could be instantaneous, for their is no time
keeping in the realm of the dead.

So when Jesus told the thief that today he would be in paradise, for all intent and
purpose, the thief would have closed his eyes on the cross. Then immediately would have
been raised up in Christ, the thief would have not noticed any delay at all. For there
was no delay, not even one earthly minute of delay.

Measurement of time in our understanding is not applicable in the domain of those
who are asleep. For those who are asleep are not conscious and therefore oblivious
to Greenwich mean time. Our time keeping only applies to us, the living inhabitants of
the earth, heaven is timeless and so is death.

Therefore the punctuation may in fact be correct, it may be that we do not understand
all things.

For the dead time does not apply-true.
When we close our eyes and die the bible says it is only a moment , " in the twinkling of an eye " to the dead that the
change from mortal to spiritual takes place,
But there is earthly time lapsing-those dying now, if the return of Christ happens at the turn of the 22nd Century about 100 earthly years have gone by.before they are raised from the dead.
What is in question is Jesus said you would be with me today-if He had just said you will be with me in paradise we would assume whenever that
person -the thief on the cross-would have been resurrected would be in paradise.
It depends on if you believe in an end time resurrection or an immediate ascension to heaven after you die.
In any case the reason I mention it is that Jesus was not ascending to heaven the day of His death so how could the thief be WITH HIM immediately after death that day
which ever way you understand life after death.
But Jesus plan was not being in paradise until a little later after His resurrection.-

 

[DHC]

For the dead time does not apply-true.
When we close our eyes and die the bible says it is only a moment , " in the twinkling of an eye " to the dead that the
change from mortal to spiritual takes place,
But there is earthly time lapsing-those dying now, if the return of Christ happens at the turn of the 22nd Century about 100 earthly years have gone by.before they are raised from the dead.
What is in question is Jesus said you would be with me today-if He had just said you will be with me in paradise we would assume whenever that
person -the thief on the cross-would have been resurrected would be in paradise.
It depends on if you believe in an end time resurrection or an immediate ascension to heaven after you die.
In any case the reason I mention it is that Jesus was not ascending to heaven the day of His death so how could the thief be WITH HIM immediately after death that day
which ever way you understand life after death.
But Jesus plan was not being in paradise until a little later after His resurrection.-

Hello Jude not.

For the dead time does not apply-true.

Hold that line of thought Judge not and you will solve the riddle.

When we close our eyes and die the bible says it is only a moment , "in the twinkling of an eye"
to the dead that the change from mortal to spiritual takes place

Yes Judge not, your on the right track at this point, when you die you are immediately resurrected.
No earthly time period is applicable to the dead, they are outside earthly time. Resurrection happens
immediately because there is no time phase in the abode of the dead.

But there is earthly time lapsing-those dying now, if the return of Christ happens at the turn
of the 22nd Century about 100 earthly years have gone by.before they are raised from the dead.

You seem to be confused on this point Judge not. You said an earthly time lapse but the dead are
not governed by earthly time, Judge not. The dead are raised as soon as they die because there is
no time lapse for them, for all that die it really is in the twinkling of an eye.

You keep mixing up the separate time frames, the dead have no time lapse to deal with but the living
do. The thief on the cross was resurrected as soon as he died. If Christ returns in 500 years that is
500 years of earth time and that only applies to living inhabitants on earth. It is not 500 years for
those who are dead. There is no time frame to deal with in death, so when you die you are raised.

This topic does not reduce to two different ideas, the dead are raised immediately, the living are subject
to a time frame.

 

[judge not]

Hello Jude not.

Hold that line of thought Judge not and you will solve the riddle.

Yes Judge not, your on the right track at this point, when you die you are immediately resurrected.
No earthly time period is applicable to the dead, they are outside earthly time. Resurrection happens
immediately because there is no time phase in the abode of the dead.

You seem to be confused on this point Judge not. You said an earthly time lapse but the dead are
not governed by earthly time, Judge not. The dead are raised as soon as they die because there is
no time lapse for them, for all that die it really is in the twinkling of an eye.

You keep mixing up the separate time frames, the dead have no time lapse to deal with but the living
do. The thief on the cross was resurrected as soon as he died. If Christ returns in 500 years that is
500 years of earth time and that only applies to living inhabitants on earth. It is not 500 years for
those who are dead. There is no time frame to deal with in death, so when you die you are raised.

This topic does not reduce to two different ideas, the dead are raised immediately, the living are subject
to a time frame.

i didn't mean for this to be an issue.
If you just go with the original Greek text, there is no punctuation.
let people decide where the commas should be based on what the NT teaches us.
the Apostles years after the death of Jesus taught that no one gets his or her reward immediately.
when they told us David or the Fathers like Abraham and Moses have not yet received their reward in paradise or heaven, they didn't say
except the thief on the cross on the day Jesus died. Was the thief the first special human being to go to heaven?
No, the Apostles kept teaching that paradise for humans was an end time event after Jesus returns.
to believe that the thief would be in heaven now would be in direct conflict to all the scriptures we have in the NT.
For the dead it seems like no time has passed-because they are in a state of unawareness.
the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens in real time for they will be raised in the future when humans are still alive and earth is in turmoil.
at that time saints still alive will be changed into spiritual being instantly but those saints resurrected from the dead from the past will be experiencing their first taste of immortality at whatever year or day it is and they both will join Christ for the first time together in the air -Rev 20

The dead don't know anything about the passage of time but they will rise up in a future time especially those that are to be judged.
Time is not a factor anyway since all the saints are resurrected or transformed at the same period of our end age and the rest of the dead
are judged in their end period afterwards.

 

[DHC]

i didn't mean for this to be an issue.
If you just go with the original Greek text, there is no punctuation.
let people decide where the commas should be based on what the NT teaches us.
the Apostles years after the death of Jesus taught that no one gets his or her reward immediately.
when they told us David or the Fathers like Abraham and Moses have not yet received their reward in paradise or heaven, they didn't say
except the thief on the cross on the day Jesus died. Was the thief the first special human being to go to heaven?
No, the Apostles kept teaching that paradise for humans was an end time event after Jesus returns.
to believe that the thief would be in heaven now would be in direct conflict to all the scriptures we have in the NT.
For the dead it seems like no time has passed-because they are in a state of unawareness.
the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens in real time for they will be raised in the future when humans are still alive and earth is in turmoil.
at that time saints still alive will be changed into spiritual being instantly but those saints resurrected from the dead from the past will be experiencing their first taste of immortality at whatever year or day it is and they both will join Christ for the first time together in the air -Rev 20

The dead don't know anything about the passage of time but they will rise up in a future time especially those that are to be judged.
Time is not a factor anyway since all the saints are resurrected or transformed at the same period of our end age and the rest of the dead
are judged in their end period afterwards.

[h=3]2 Kings 2:11[/h]New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them.
And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

How does this quotation tie in with your doctrine Judge not.

 

[LoveStory]

Hello Judge not.

There is a bit more to this topic than some people may be aware. When you fall asleep
in Jesus you will not be aware that you are dead of course. Therefore the idea that a
resurrection occurs as soon as you close your eyes for the last time may be correct.
There might not be any delay whatsoever, it could be instantaneous, for their is no time
keeping in the realm of the dead.

So when Jesus told the thief that today he would be in paradise, for all intent and
purpose, the thief would have closed his eyes on the cross. Then immediately would have
been raised up in Christ, the thief would have not noticed any delay at all. For there
was no delay, not even one earthly minute of delay.

Measurement of time in our understanding is not applicable in the domain of those
who are asleep. For those who are asleep are not conscious and therefore oblivious
to Greenwich mean time. Our time keeping only applies to us, the living inhabitants of
the earth, heaven is timeless and so is death.

Therefore the punctuation may in fact be correct, it may be that we do not understand
all things.

Please help me understand what you're saying. If I die today, I'll wake up in heaven post rapture? Which means I'll see you and all other believers there?

When Jesus told the thief 'today' I don't think he meant for it to be translated post-rapture.

The near death experiences I read about don't support the post-rapture idea; some people reported having the choice to come back to their physical body or stay in heaven.

I think when the scriptures talk about sleep, it's the physical body that's sleeping. We get our glorified body when Jesus comes back at the rapture. If we die before the rapture, then our body sleeps, but our spirit/soul does not sleep, as it goes to heaven to be with Jesus.

Also, someone mentioned something about Lazarus not being with Jesus after he died, it may have been @judge not; anyway, Jesus hadn't died and rose from the dead yet, so that's why it wasn't mentioned that he was with Jesus after he died.
@DHC, @judge not:

Following His crucifixion, and prior to His resurrection, Jesus descended to a place in Hades (the underworld) known as Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. (Luke 16:19-26; 1 Peter 4:6) This is where the soul and spirit of Old Testament saints were being held captive awaiting atonement of their sin debt. Jesus' purpose in going to Abraham's Bosom was to proclaim victory over sin and death; to set the captives free.

Forty days later, when He ascended to heaven, Jesus took the *soul* and *spirit* of the Old Testament saints to heaven with Him; Paradise is now in Heaven. (Ephesians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) At a future date in time, their *body*, soul and spirit will once more be reunited at the resurrection spoken of in the Old Testament book of Daniel. ( Daniel 12:1-2) That's when we will get our glorified body.

 

[LoveStory]

Following His crucifixion, and prior to His resurrection, Jesus descended to a place in Hades (the underworld) known as Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. (Luke 16:19-26; 1 Peter 4:6) This is where the soul and spirit of Old Testament saints were being held captive awaiting atonement of their sin debt. Jesus' purpose in going to Abraham's Bosom was to proclaim victory over sin and death; to set the captives free.

Forty days later, when He ascended to heaven, Jesus took the *soul* and *spirit* of the Old Testament saints to heaven with Him; Paradise is now in Heaven. (Ephesians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) At a future date in time, their *body*, soul and spirit will once more be reunited at the resurrection.(Daniel 12:1-2) That's when we will get our glorified body.

 

[judge not]

2 Kings 2:11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them.
And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

How does this quotation tie in with your doctrine Judge not.

They didn't go to heaven where God's throne is-that is the third heaven.-
They were taken up to the 1st heaven-our sky as we know it for safety.
Elijah was not in heaven with God.
Elijah sent a letter to Elisha years after he disappeared to his place of safety.-2 Chronicles 21:12 -he was still alive but safe
Hebrews 11:3 explains the truth-the chapter lists some of the greatest of God's men ending with " these all died in faith, not having received the promises
of eternal life-they are not in Heaven.
They will be brought back to life with the apostles and all at the same time at the second coming of Christ. -verses 37-40
God has said the firstfruits of the Lamb shall all be resurrected at the same time.

don't believe the false myths that preachers have been perpetuating for years just believe your bible.
" Nobody has gone to heaven " John 3:13-believe the author of the bible-your savior Jesus Christ.

if you won't believe Jesus, can somebody show me where it says in clear words so we don;t have to rely on interpretation.

In what chapter or verse in the bible can I see the phrases " We will go to heaven when we die " or " When we get to heaven " or " i will see you in heaven "
i cannot find any of those phrases in the bible?
Please help show me.

 

[rag4aCrown]

Greetings in the Lord Jesus

God is Spirit.
When scriptures talks about the dead in Christ, it is referring to spiritually dead in Him. Those who say they are His; and are not. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
The first resurrection happened when Jesus died on the cross; the Word tells us this.
The temple was rent in two; and the graves were opened. Those who were found (judged) good; to the resurrection of life. Those who were found evil; to the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, there will be one more; a woman this time. She will come forth ALIVE IN HIM; and the world will hate her, because she is sent forth to reprove their spirits. (John 3:20). Spirits get reproved because one is speaking IN Spirit and IN Truth; having no respector of persons. They will not receive her; because they have not received HIM who sent her. Their unbelief condemns them; they judge fleshly carnal judgments, and shall be judged by the judgment they judge with.
When we point the finger in the other direction; the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is pointing straight back at us.
Try it: with your index finger and your thumb, make a finger gun (like when you were a kid). There is 3 fingers pointing at self. God unveiled this to me. Check for yourself.

We do not praise God when we are asleep (dead) and we know knowing? God is spirit. Amen; spiritually dead is right now also. They speak with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Amen.
This is happening in every "house made with hands" that I have walked into. There is a lot of "dry bones" sitting in there.
We are either ALIVE IN HIM, right now; or DEAD IN HIM, right now. These "fruits" go with us when this fleshly carnal body lay down; we will be judged by our fruits.
We are either good or evil; we are either found IN HIM, or we are not; we are either ALL IN FOR HIM, or we are not.
We can not have the best of both worlds. There is a carnal fleshly world and their is a spiritual world. God is spirit.
We can not serve God and mammon too. Amen.

All praise honor and glory be to God. Amen.

 

[judge not]

Following His crucifixion, and prior to His resurrection, Jesus descended to a place in Hades (the underworld) known as Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. (Luke 16:19-26; 1 Peter 4:6) This is where the soul and spirit of Old Testament saints were being held captive awaiting atonement of their sin debt. Jesus' purpose in going to Abraham's Bosom was to proclaim victory over sin and death; to set the captives free.

Forty days later, when He ascended to heaven, Jesus took the *soul* and *spirit* of the Old Testament saints to heaven with Him; Paradise is now in Heaven. (Ephesians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) At a future date in time, their *body*, soul and spirit will once more be reunited at the resurrection.(Daniel 12:1-2) That's when we will get our glorified body.

Luke 16 is a parable.
It's not a real reporting of an actual event.
parables generally tell or explain a lesson to us depending on the context.
Earlier in Luke 16 Jesus had been teaching on covetousness and stewardship.
Jesus was illustrating the rich's insensitivity to and exploitation of the poor, not to satisfy our natural curiosity about man's anthropological condition after death.
If this parable was teaching us about the intermediate state of death it would be irrelevant to the context.
You cannot construct a theology of the afterlife based on a parable.
The word translated " hell " in this passage means grave.-where everyone even the righteous go.
Of course if this was literal it would contradict all other scripture regarding what the dead are doing now.

And Eph 4:8 generally means releasing us from the captivity of the penalty of sin and the satan's influence.
and the church receiving gifts from the Holy Spirit just like a bride would.

 

[judge not]

Greetings in the Lord Jesus

God is Spirit.
When scriptures talks about the dead in Christ, it is referring to spiritually dead in Him. Those who say they are His; and are not. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
The first resurrection happened when Jesus died on the cross; the Word tells us this.
The temple was rent in two; and the graves were opened. Those who were found (judged) good; to the resurrection of life. Those who were found evil; to the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, there will be one more; a woman this time. She will come forth ALIVE IN HIM; and the world will hate her, because she is sent forth to reprove their spirits. (John 3:20). Spirits get reproved because one is speaking IN Spirit and IN Truth; having no respector of persons. They will not receive her; because they have not received HIM who sent her. Their unbelief condemns them; they judge fleshly carnal judgments, and shall be judged by the judgment they judge with.
When we point the finger in the other direction; the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is pointing straight back at us.
Try it: with your index finger and your thumb, make a finger gun (like when you were a kid). There is 3 fingers pointing at self. God unveiled this to me. Check for yourself.

We do not praise God when we are asleep (dead) and we know knowing? God is spirit. Amen; spiritually dead is right now also. They speak with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Amen.
This is happening in every "house made with hands" that I have walked into. There is a lot of "dry bones" sitting in there.
We are either ALIVE IN HIM, right now; or DEAD IN HIM, right now. These "fruits" go with us when this fleshly carnal body lay down; we will be judged by our fruits.
We are either good or evil; we are either found IN HIM, or we are not; we are either ALL IN FOR HIM, or we are not.
We can not have the best of both worlds. There is a carnal fleshly world and their is a spiritual world. God is spirit.
We can not serve God and mammon too. Amen.

All praise honor and glory be to God. Amen.

The resurrection that happened after Jesus died on the cross was a resurrection of some people back to a physical body only.
Like Lazarus earlier on.
the first resurrection is all those in Christ, dead or alive at His second coming who will be raised into SPIRITUAL beings, not just back into mortal bodies.

 

[LoveStory]

Luke 16 is a parable.
It's not a real reporting of an actual event.
parables generally tell or explain a lesson to us depending on the context.
Earlier in Luke 16 Jesus had been teaching on covetousness and stewardship.
Jesus was illustrating the rich's insensitivity to and exploitation of the poor, not to satisfy our natural curiosity about man's anthropological condition after death.
If this parable was teaching us about the intermediate state of death it would be irrelevant to the context.
You cannot construct a theology of the afterlife based on a parable.
The word translated " hell " in this passage means grave.-where everyone even the righteous go.
Of course if this was literal it would contradict all other scripture regarding what the dead are doing now.

Luke 16:19-31 starts out sounding like a parable, I agree, but when I read further, I believe it really happened. Just like I believe Noah and the ark happened; just like I believe Jonah and the whale happened.

And Eph 4:8 generally means releasing us from the captivity of the penalty of sin and the satan's influence.

I've never heard that translation before with regards to Ephesians 4:8. I think Jesus *literally* set the captives free.

I think there's a spiritual way of looking at things and there's a natural way of looking at things; I can see we are looking at these verses from different perspectives.

I want to reiterate that I definitely understand where you are coming from and I enjoy hearing your thoughts.

 

[rag4aCrown]

The resurrection that happened after Jesus died on the cross was a resurrection of some people back to a physical body only.
Like Lazarus earlier on.
the first resurrection is all those in Christ, dead or alive at His second coming who will be raised into SPIRITUAL beings, not just back into mortal bodies.

Blessings in the Lord Jesus;
To each as they believe; may the Holy Ghost guide you in wisdom and understanding by revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ; and may the Spirit of truth, another comforter, lead you into all truth.

When this flesh lay down; no grave will hold me; least Christ be bound by the grave. He is in me, I am in Him, we go unto the Father. Amen. We are ONE; not separate. I go unto HIM; where He is, there I will be also. Amen.
All praise, honor, and glory be to God.

 

[DHC]

Hello Judge not.

You made a number of statements and asked a question which I will be happy to address.
By the way Judge not, I only used two sets of passages for brevity but if you wan't more
passages just ask. Your first statement is as follows.

They didn't go to heaven where God's throne is-that is the third heaven.-
They were taken up to the 1st heaven-our sky as we know it for safety.
Elijah was not in heaven with God.

The text does not specifically state whether Elijah went to a third heaven or even a
first heaven. The text simply states 'And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven'.
You are forcing an interpretation Judge not, that may not be justified. There is no way
of knowing which heaven that Elijah was taken to. There is also a very serious problem
for you in the text.

2 Kings 2
3 “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?” And he said,
“Yes, I know; be still.”

Elisha said he would not depart from Elijah while Elijah was living (2 Kings 2:2). But the Lord
was taking Elijah that very day and Elisha knew that the Lord would taken him. So Elisha took
the prophets mantle and departed because Elijah was gone. Elijah would not have surrended
the mantle unless his time on earth had expired, that is why the mantle fell to the ground.
You need to explain these passages in (2 Kings 2) Judge not.

Elijah sent a letter to Elisha years after he disappeared to his place of safety.-2 Chronicles 21:12
-he was still alive but safe

A very difficult passage (2 Chronicles 21:12) and one that I am not qualified to comment on.
Some say a copyist used the name of 'Elijah' accidentally in place of 'Elisha'.
Others state that Elijah wrote the letter at an earlier date and gave it to Elisha.
This is a very difficult passage for it is out of alignment in a historical sense and it is not possible
to accurately provide any comment.

In what chapter or verse in the bible can I see the phrases " We will go to heaven when we die "
or " When we get to heaven " or " i will see you in heaven "i cannot find any of those phrases in the bible?
Please help show me.

Here are some quotations that you would need to address if you wish to maintain your theology Judge not.

The following passage is from a Gospel and concerns an event that occurred before Christ was crucified.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold,
Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will
make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud
overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

Obviously at the time of the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses was dead and buried and could not be speaking for he had not
yet been raised, likewise for Elijah. So who are the two people that appeared to the three apostles mentioned and spoke with Jesus?

Here is another passage that indicates that the soul returns to heaven before the resurrection of the dead.

Revelations 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had
been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain
from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

These souls are conscious and under the altar in heaven and talking with Jesus!
Mankind is still present on earth and are rebelling against God.
Christ has not returned to the earth at this point.

 

[james1523]

The spirit, or breath that God gives us is from God, and it is also God Himself. There is no other life-source in the universe except God. Because our spirit is God's breath, it cannot be defeated, killed, or die, it exists for eternity. For this reason, to say that the spirit is only a force that exists if the body is alive, is to say that God exists only if our bodies are living. To believe that our spirit lives and dies is to believe that God lives and dies.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

You made a number of statements and asked a question which I will be happy to address.
By the way Judge not, I only used two sets of passages for brevity but if you wan't more
passages just ask. Your first statement is as follows.

The text does not specifically state whether Elijah went to a third heaven or even a
first heaven. The text simply states 'And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven'.
You are forcing an interpretation Judge not, that may not be justified. There is no way
of knowing which heaven that Elijah was taken to. There is also a very serious problem
for you in the text.

2 Kings 2
3 “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?” And he said,
“Yes, I know; be still.”

Elisha said he would not depart from Elijah while Elijah was living (2 Kings 2:2). But the Lord
was taking Elijah that very day and Elisha knew that the Lord would taken him. So Elisha took
the prophets mantle and departed because Elijah was gone. Elijah would not have surrended
the mantle unless his time on earth had expired, that is why the mantle fell to the ground.
You need to explain these passages in (2 Kings 2) Judge not.

A very difficult passage (2 Chronicles 21:12) and one that I am not qualified to comment on.
Some say a copyist used the name of 'Elijah' accidentally in place of 'Elisha'.
Others state that Elijah wrote the letter at an earlier date and gave it to Elisha.
This is a very difficult passage for it is out of alignment in a historical sense and it is not possible
to accurately provide any comment.

Here are some quotations that you would need to address if you wish to maintain your theology Judge not.

The following passage is from a Gospel and concerns an event that occurred before Christ was crucified.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold,
Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will
make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud
overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

Obviously at the time of the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses was dead and buried and could not be speaking for he had not
yet been raised, likewise for Elijah. So who are the two people that appeared to the three apostles mentioned and spoke with Jesus?

Here is another passage that indicates that the soul returns to heaven before the resurrection of the dead.

Revelations 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had
been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain
from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

These souls are conscious and under the altar in heaven and talking with Jesus!
Mankind is still present on earth and are rebelling against God.
Christ has not returned to the earth at this point.

Hello again.
Well from my perspective Jesus said no man hath ascended to heaven and the third heaven (paradise) is where God resides-2 Cor 12:1-4
So that only leaves the 1st heaven, our sky, or the 2nd heaven -space, the final frontier, for man anyway.
I think maybe it was the 1st heaven since God used a whirlwind to transport him somewhere on earth.

2 Kings 2

the letter was written 3 or 4 years after Elijah's rapture so to speak.
Elijah mentions the murdering ways of Jehoram of his brothers that just recently occurred so Elijah must have been alive to know current information -so it couldn't be written at an earlier date.
anyway Elisha had already been anointed to succeed Elijah so there 's no mystery there.
the Bible doesn't say why changes were made.

Matt 17

Remember the Apostles only saw a vision-a view of the future.
Luke recorded the same event and said they appeared in glory Luke 9:31
1 Cor 15:43 tells us our body will be raised in glory.
Since Christ was to be the first born to glory it would be impossible
for them to already be glorified before Jesus.
The apostles there at the time caught a glimpse of what we would look like after our resurrection at the time of the second coming of Christ.

same situation happened to John in Revelation-he was given a visionary preview of what was coming.

i still haven't seen any scriptures quoted with the words " We will go to heaven when we die "
since we don't want to believe what Jesus and the apostles told us.

 

[DHC]

Hello Judge not.

There are a few twists and turns to negotiate in this topic.

So that only leaves the 1st heaven, our sky, or the 2nd heaven -space, the final frontier,
for man anyway. I think maybe it was the 1st heaven since God used a whirlwind to transport
him somewhere on earth.

I must protest at this point Judge not, the text does not say what you state the text says.
The text does not say that Elijah was transported to another point on earth. The text
also states that a fiery chariot and horses were the mode of transport for Elijah. The Lord
had taken Elijah and Elijah was no more, this is what the text tells us.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man

Well we agree that no man has ascended into heaven, because no man is able to ascend
until the day of the Lord. Now we probably need to be more precise in the way we use these
terms, Judge not. The scripture does not state that a man's spirit or soul cannot ascend, only
that no man has ascended.

2 Corinthians 12
1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations
of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago whether in the body I do not know,
or out of the body I do not know, God knows such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know,
God knows 4 was caught up into Paradise.

Here is an unusual testimony from Paul that he may have been bodily transported to the
third heaven, but Paul was unsure. Either way Judge not, whether it was his soul, or his soul
and body, Paul was certainly present in the third heaven. Paul was ' caught up ' and this
implies some type of physical or spiritual translation, Paul traveled and of this he was sure.
For Paul was present in the third heaven and this Paul knew to be the case.

Matt 17
Remember the Apostles only saw a vision-a view of the future.
Luke recorded the same event and said they appeared in glory Luke 9:31

How do you know that the apostles were looking into the future?

The text states that Jesus while on earth was transfigured and spoke with Moses and
Elijah. I have no recollection of the text saying that the apostles were peering at
some future event. It appears to be a real time event from the human perspective.

If it was a futuristic view then they would also have seen themselves and Moses, and Elijah.

same situation happened to John in Revelation-he was given a visionary preview of what was coming.

Here is where you need to read the text carefully Judge not, and think it through to its
logical conclusion. I will reprint the text so that we both can read it again. Yes it is in the
future from the time of John, and that we know because the scripture tells us so.

Revelations 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had
been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain
from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given
to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until
the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been,
would be completed also.

Notice that the text does not say that the ones under the altar had been bodily resurrected.
They were just 'souls' judge not and were waiting for the full bodily resurrection of course.
Notice also that Christ had not as yet returned to judge mankind, for the 'souls' were told
to rest a little while longer! How far into the future is irrelevant because the souls were
impatient for the wrath of God to take place. Please also notice that they were given
'white robes' and this is before the great day of the Lord.

This text is very clear that there are already souls in heaven before the return of Christ.
As I said before Judge not, no man is in heaven but this does not exclude the soul of
a man from being in heaven already to await the resurrection. Which is what the text
in Revelations seems to be telling us.

We will go to heaven when we die since we don't want to believe what Jesus and the apostles told us.

I believe in what Jesus told us and no man is in heaven yet. Though we do really need to be aware
that there are souls in heaven already and are waiting impatiently. That is why we sleep when we
die but our souls are not asleep, our souls are with the Lord when when nod off. We cannot
be resurrected bodily until the great day, but this does not prohibit the soul from returning to
the creator on the day of expiry.

To be absent from the body and present with the Lord does have a deeper significance at
the spiritual level. Perhaps you have been told already that death has no power over you
in Christ. You are already seated with Christ in heaven and you just need to look at bit
closer at the text. Remember above all that when you fall asleep you have departed from
the domain of the earthly time zone. You now have entered the twilight zone where clocks
do not tick, and will be immediately resurrected.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

There are a few twists and turns to negotiate in this topic.

I must protest at this point Judge not, the text does not say what you state the text says.
The text does not say that Elijah was transported to another point on earth. The text
also states that a fiery chariot and horses were the mode of transport for Elijah. The Lord
had taken Elijah and Elijah was no more, this is what the text tells us.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man

Well we agree that no man has ascended into heaven, because no man is able to ascend
until the day of the Lord. Now we probably need to be more precise in the way we use these
terms, Judge not. The scripture does not state that a man's spirit or soul cannot ascend, only
that no man has ascended.

2 Corinthians 12
1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations
of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago whether in the body I do not know,
or out of the body I do not know, God knows such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know,
God knows 4 was caught up into Paradise.

Here is an unusual testimony from Paul that he may have been bodily transported to the
third heaven, but Paul was unsure. Either way Judge not, whether it was his soul, or his soul
and body, Paul was certainly present in the third heaven. Paul was ' caught up ' and this
implies some type of physical or spiritual translation, Paul traveled and of this he was sure.
For Paul was present in the third heaven and this Paul knew to be the case.

How do you know that the apostles were looking into the future?

The text states that Jesus while on earth was transfigured and spoke with Moses and
Elijah. I have no recollection of the text saying that the apostles were peering at
some future event. It appears to be a real time event from the human perspective.

If it was a futuristic view then they would also have seen themselves and Moses, and Elijah.

Here is where you need to read the text carefully Judge not, and think it through to its
logical conclusion. I will reprint the text so that we both can read it again. Yes it is in the
future from the time of John, and that we know because the scripture tells us so.

Revelations 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had
been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain
from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given
to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until
the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been,
would be completed also.

Notice that the text does not say that the ones under the altar had been bodily resurrected.
They were just 'souls' judge not and were waiting for the full bodily resurrection of course.
Notice also that Christ had not as yet returned to judge mankind, for the 'souls' were told
to rest a little while longer! How far into the future is irrelevant because the souls were
impatient for the wrath of God to take place. Please also notice that they were given
'white robes' and this is before the great day of the Lord.

This text is very clear that there are already souls in heaven before the return of Christ.
As I said before Judge not, no man is in heaven but this does not exclude the soul of
a man from being in heaven already to await the resurrection. Which is what the text
in Revelations seems to be telling us.

I believe in what Jesus told us and no man is in heaven yet. Though we do really need to be aware
that there are souls in heaven already and are waiting impatiently. That is why we sleep when we
die but our souls are not asleep, our souls are with the Lord when when nod off. We cannot
be resurrected bodily until the great day, but this does not prohibit the soul from returning to
the creator on the day of expiry.

To be absent from the body and present with the Lord does have a deeper significance at
the spiritual level. Perhaps you have been told already that death has no power over you
in Christ. You are already seated with Christ in heaven and you just need to look at bit
closer at the text. Remember above all that when you fall asleep you have departed from
the domain of the earthly time zone. You now have entered the twilight zone where clocks
do not tick, and will be immediately resurrected.

hello - where does it say a man's soul or spirit ascends to heaven after we die?

2 Cor 12 is a vision Paul had

Rev 6 is highly symbolic -we should not use Rev which largely employs allegory and symbols to establish doctrine.
does anyone really believe that all the Saints of the Lord are literally under the altar.
The martyred saints had sacrificed their own own blood not the blood of bulls, symbolically.

if we look at 1Cor 15:53 - if our soul is already with the Lord why would our soul have to put on immortality along with our body?

 

[DHC]

Hello Judge not.

where does it say a man's soul or spirit ascends to heaven after we die?

The sixth chapter of Revelations tells us that those who have been slain for Christ are
already in heaven. Are you saying that the vision that Christ gave John was not true,
Judge not? There are no souls in heaven before Christ's return? You need to define
what you accept and what you do not accept. If this vision in chapter six is not true
or a real vision, then just say so. Make your declaration clear and precise! If you believe
that this vision was fictional and not real at all, then state that.

Please avoid hiding behind behind a vague statements such as, Revelations is highly symbolic.
Because you are not making your viewpoint clear, is the vision fictional that John received.
You need to address this point! If it was fictional, why did God bother to give a fictional vision
about fictional events that must take place in the future?

2 Cor 12 is a vision Paul had

Yes a vision Judge not, but a concious vision in which Paul interacted in the vision itself.
Just like all the other interactive visions throughout the Old Testament. Prophets of old
sometimes suffered inside their vision, they talked and worshipped, it was interactive.

Rev 6 is highly symbolic -we should not use Rev which largely employs allegory and symbols to establish doctrine.

You may need to correct the statement above regarding symbols and the book of Revelations.
Revelations uses symbols but the symbols are very easy to understand. For example, when the
symbol 'the lamb' occurs, you can take it from me that this means Jesus! Or when the symbol
'the beast' occurs it is referring to the antichrist. Where would you be without my helpful
insight Judge not? Seriously Judge not, many of the symbols are not to hard to interpret.

The symbols are usually very simple and easy to interpret, which was the intention of the author.
Jesus is telling you what will take place in the past, the present and in the future. Doctrines
are most definitely clarified and reinforced in the book of Revelations.

does anyone really believe that all the Saints of the Lord are literally under the altar.

Are you saying that the souls of the martyrs are not in heaven already?

if we look at 1Cor 15:53 - if our soul is already with the Lord why would our soul have to put on
immortality along with our body?

Because the soul is not immortal until God declares it to be. Remember that any soul cannot
die unless God destroys it, so it is never immortal until God grants the soul immortality.