Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[RJ]

One thing I believe that @Jehonadad and @james1523 and myself believe that it seems you may not is that...
We are saved by grace and faith alone, not works.
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So OK, that's we get saved. But after we are saved works are different. ( James 2:14-26; )
Our physical behavior is what determines our spiritual condition.

Matt 17:9; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Oh boy...have you ever got me wrong and I would like for you to show one of my post where I did'nt support salvation by grace.
And if anyone, it is James who believes in legalism...he has never supported salvation by grace alone!? We have been at it for a long time over this...where have you been?!

 

[B-A-C]

Oh boy...have you ever got me wrong and I would like for you to show one of my post where I did'nt support salvation by grace.

I think we all agree of the salvation by grace part. The disagreement comes... are certain works required AFTER you are saved? ( See post #59 also )
James 2 says that our works are what prove that we are ALREADY saved, not how we get saved.

 

[RJ]

I think we all agree of the salvation by grace part. The disagreement comes... are certain works required AFTER you are saved? ( See post #59 also )
James 2 says that our works are what prove that we are ALREADY saved, not how we get saved.

• Please try again, post # 59 is between you and Barny?!
• By the way, James 2:14-26 is the truth. A true sign of a Christian is works of the Spirit through you. One of the first and puriest works of the spirit is your faith. John 15:5... we are the branch and we bear fruit (works) from the vine, the Holy Spirit in us.
• These works are a by-product of and come after salvation; not a prerequesite to gain salvation as some believe.
• As a Christian, if you are not bearing such fruits of the spirit, you faith is dead and a sign that you indeed have not been saved.

 

[DHC]

Hello Jehonadab.

Good reply and I do understand your argument. Though there is some theology evident within your
line of reasoning. This post in reply is a tad longer than I had hoped for, but please bear with me and
try to read the whole post Jehonadab.

Yet no man could accuse God of having poorly designed them.

The debate is not that the creatures of this creation were poor in design. It is that the creation itself was
a physical structure and not a spiritual structure. Scripture only declares that the creation was 'good'.
Scripture nowhere declares that the creation was a perfect, created entity. Here read the following
verse Jehonadab.

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was VERY GOOD.

God declared the creation to be very good, notice that God does not say perfect. For some
reason people believe that because God created the world, the world must be perfect. This
is an incorrect assumption and an erroneous line of reasoning. Creation is a physical entity
(natural) and not a spiritual creation. Physical entities such as our world are not perfect and
never were perfect. God never intended that the physical creation to be perfect. God from all
eternity decided to allow the 'earthy', a physical creation, to preceed the spiritual (perfect)
creation in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

We live in a natural and very imperfect world. Mankind is not only a fallen creation but a
very limited creature in his own right. Man is never able to access the spiritual realm through
his own efforts. Only in the Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit is the new creation (spiritual)
on the path to perfection. God within and not external to us, as was the case with Adam.

The lower animals know no spirituality. Adam, on the other hand was created with a frontal
lobe in his brain that made him capable of maturing as a spiritual person who could understand
and image God's spiritual nature in the flesh.

To argue that man has a frontal lobe and this is the separation between the lower creatures
and us, is a faulty line of reasoning. That is what evolution teaches Jehonadab. Man was created
in fact in God's image, scripture does not mention 'frontal lobes', Jehonadab.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image"

Where not talking about 'frontal lobes' here, Jehonadab. We are the image of God Himself
but in a physical format. A temporal, physical, restricted, and powerless creature. Adam was
never created as an eternal creature. Adam was not a spiritual creature but a physical and
imperfect creature. That is why Adam suffered from loneliness, Adam also needed physical
nourishment from the garden. Adam had work to to do in tending to the garden he lived in.

Adam was free from sin but that was only a temporary condition. Noticing the shadows Jehonadab.
Adam was lonely even though Adam walked with God in the garden. Adam had a spiritual vacuum
inherent within his physical nature. Loneliness is one of the greatest imperfections that man has,
and it was designed into the creature. God created the imperfect (man) with the goal of creating
at a future date, the spiritual creation in Christ.

So Paul is correct that "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a
natural body, there is also a spiritual body" but Paul did not mean that made Adam imperfect.
Paul knew and said things in many places in his letters that show he knew that what makes a
man imperfect is stepping outside God's purposed place for him to be at any given time.

Your understanding of the scripture is very much lacking on this point Jehonadab. Mankind
was never 'perfect', mankind was a physical and not a spiritual creation. God within us, is the
only way to be spiritual and was God's intended purpose for the creation. God created Adam
to fail because Adam did not have God's spirit within. Adam had an external relationship to
God. If Adam had not eaten the fruit at Eve's prompting, he would have gone astray at some
future point in time. Physical creatures do not possess the mind of Christ hence they are unable
to resist temptation indefinitely.

The corruption of mankind and the introduction of death. Was not the corruption of perfection.
Perfection cannot be corrupted, perfection cannot be induced to imperfection. Christ was
perfect because Christ was God in the flesh, incorruptible. Adam was imperfect and was
subject to corruption. The physical is before the spiritual! Imperfection is before perfection.

 

[DHC]

You preach Heresy! I pray for your deliverence!

Hello RJ.

You preach Heresy! I pray for your deliverence!

That is what I like about forums, people get so excited and the accusations fly!
RJ, you may need to tone down your comments somewhat, as James is quite
entitled to believe the doctrines he has been taught. He may be wrong but
he is not alone, and we all hold some very suspect doctrines ourselves. Gently
correct in the hope that James may see the error of his ways. Remember above
all RJ, that you and I are guests on TJ and we do need to be polite to everyone.

 

[Jehonadab]

DHC:
LOL, not one of my better posts I quite agree.

I have been battling illness that is draining me and this weather is not helping at all. So you just might have seen some crazy things coming out of my belabored mind lately.

Right now my brain is resisting me so I won't respond much for the moment but to say, 'Ya, that frontal lobe thingy is a dozy.' I had been listening to the science channel and they were discussing what studies show concerning where spirituality shows up increased activity in our brains. I was actually parroting their speculation as they said that the lower animals did not have that particular section in their brain. I could well have gotten the wrong name part, also.

Fuzzy brain syndrome. Now there is a reality I am often living proof of. LOL.

Added: "Yet no man could accuse God of having poorly designed them."

My point there is that perfection is not simply an aspiration, for it is evident in the scriptures that God changes the requirements for what he deems as perfection based upon the level of knowledge and wisdom of those whom he compassionately deals with so long as they listen to him with eyes and ears of faith. And so it is true that perfection for Noah and other men whom the scriptures say were tamiym in his eyes is our unchanging God's grace which has been active from the beginning of the world and forever. That perfection means only that we give him 100% of the best he sees we are capable of giving. And that principally involves being willing by faith to listen to him and do the little he asks of us at the given time. He is a very gentle and merciful God toward those who love him and by that love obey him.

However, in the following verse, (Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."), of course is an aspiration toward which we must climb, as holiness in his image is what that verse really is speaking of; as in. (Leviticus 20:7; 1 Peter 1:16) What we want to remember here is Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. And of course that is our goal to aim at and exert ourselves to reach which is why Paul said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

We see that upward climb in places like as this one: Philippians 3:15-16 "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

In other words, don't regress in the progress you have made toward clothing yourself with his righteousness. And until that point that compassion which imputes holiness incrementally to us by the compassion of his grace keeps us covered.

Well, my mind suddenly went completely blank. I'll pause for a bit.

 

[Barny]

Jesus said many things before he went to the cross, does this mean they are all invalid now? - Jesus also said we must believe in Him before he went to the cross (eg John 5:24).

We see there is the ministry of condemnation/death (10 commandments) and the much moire glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:7-11.
Jesus fulfilled the first one for us and then brought in the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness for us.
The cross is the turning point.

In Rom 10:4, end does not mean the law is abolished. It means it is completed, fulfilled. It means Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness.

Actually it says that "Christ is the END of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, to everyone who believes", Rom 10:4.
The law is not abolished. It still stands and will be used in judging those under the law in Rev 20:12. These are the non-believers such as legalists who bring themselves under the law by determining righteousness by works of the law and thereby rejecting the work on the cross.
Remember that whatever the law says, it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.

Christians however, will not be judged by the law as we're in the book of life, Rev 20:12.
Christians are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Hence why it says Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.
The law is not how a Christians righteousness is determined.

This is all pretty clear and contradicts the convoluted claims of legalists who try to distort this inconvenient scripture to suit their error doctrine.

The spiritualizing of those passages is not warranted

Such convenient claims have no foundation and only hinder one's understanding of scripture.

Scripture, however, says otherwise
1Cor 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

. In any case, in Matt 7, those who call Jesus Lord are believers, and they prophesied and work miracles by the power of the Spirit. Only believers in Christ call Jesus Lord. Their lawlessness therefore is not unbelief as you claim, but disobedience to God's law.

Matt 7:22 says the number of people in this category will be "many". Who else could it be other than the "many" Christians who believe that salvation is by faith alone and keeping the law doesn't matter? and the "many" Christians on forums such as this one, who propagate and defend such false doctrines?

We'll just have to disagree here too.
You continue to ignore the truth that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
As Christians are not under the law then they cannot be charged with it's transgression/sin.
a Christian's faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Hence we see in Matt 7 that those charged with Lawlessness/Sin are those under the law (legalists, for example), as they will fail to keep it perfectly (Rom 3:19, James 2:10).
.

 

[Barny]

Absolutely!!

John 5:22; For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 8:16; "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
Acts 17:31; because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Romans 2:16; on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 11:32; But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
2 Tim 4:1; I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
Rev 16:5; And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;

James 5:8; You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
James 5:9; Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:30; “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 9:39; Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.”

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the flesh, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jude 1:14; It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Jude 1:15; to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Even in the story of the sheep and the goats, Jesus executes judgement.

Matt 25:34; “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:41; “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46; These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

B-A-C, always prolific at quoting scriptures. In one way I like that, but unfortunately they do not support your claim as you suppose, and for me to explain each one would result in a super long post.

For the sake of brevity I'll ask you to explain your doctrine of this judgement/condemnation you claim Christians will face.

My understanding is that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
Believing on Jesus is the gospel, John 3:16.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
In believing on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4;5
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:4.
We're born of God when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:1.

As an example, the thief on the cross believed on Jesus and he entered into paradise.
Above we see a consistent gospel message. There is nothing ambiguous about this. It's believe on Jesus.

However you disagree with the above and insist that works of the law (but not including the Sabbath) are necessary as well.

Can you give us details as to what level of obedience to the partial law do you think we need to attain so that Jesus will not condemn we Christians to hell?
Bearing in mind that Christians have various life spans, then it's logical to think that there must be some perhaps daily or monthly or maybe even yearly allowance of forgiveness and anything beyond that allowance from God will result in Jesus condemning such a Christian to hell?

Also can you provide scripture to support this doctrine you propose.

 

[Barny]

Hi jehonedab.

I see you there

I'm off to work again and hopefully will get time to respond to some of your points later.

 

[Jehonadab]

Quote of james1523, "The spiritualizing of those passages is not warranted. In any case, in Matt 7; those who call Jesus Lord are believers, and they prophesied and work miracles by the power of the Spirit. Only believers in Christ call Jesus Lord. Their lawlessness therefore is not unbelief as you claim, but disobedience to God's law." End of Quote.

I assess that by means of James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

I kind of sort of see james1523's point.

There is belief and then there is belief. One is an emotional conviction which fails to connect with any more than a precursory gnosis of God's righteousness and the other is based upon a deeper epignosis and therefore a knowledgeable acceptance of God's righteousness so that it actually puts God's righteousness to work in ones lives.

 

[DHC]

DHC:
LOL, not one of my better posts I quite agree.

I have been battling illness that is draining me and this weather is not helping at all. So you just might have seen some crazy things coming out of my belabored mind lately.

Right now my brain is resisting me so I won't respond much for the moment but to say, 'Ya, that frontal lobe thingy is a dozy.' I had been listening to the science channel and they were discussing what studies show concerning where spirituality shows up increased activity in our brains. I was actually parroting their speculation as they said that the lower animals did not have that particular section in their brain. I could well have gotten the wrong name part, also.

Fuzzy brain syndrome. Now there is a reality I am often living proof of. LOL.

Added: "Yet no man could accuse God of having poorly designed them."

My point there is that perfection is not simply an aspiration, for it is evident in the scriptures that God changes the requirements for what he deems as perfection based upon the level of knowledge and wisdom of those whom he compassionately deals with so long as they listen to him with eyes and ears of faith. And so it is true that perfection for Noah and other men whom the scriptures say were tamiym in his eyes is our unchanging God's grace which has been active from the beginning of the world and forever. That perfection means only that we give him 100% of the best he sees we are capable of giving. And that principally involves being willing by faith to listen to him and do the little he asks of us at the given time. He is a very gentle and merciful God toward those who love him and by that love obey him.

However, in the following verse, (Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."), of course is an aspiration toward which we must climb, as holiness in his image is what that verse really is speaking of; as in. (Leviticus 20:7; 1 Peter 1:16) What we want to remember here is Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. And of course that is our goal to aim at and exert ourselves to reach which is why Paul said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

We see that upward climb in places like as this one: Philippians 3:15-16 "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

In other words, don't regress in the progress you have made toward clothing yourself with his righteousness. And until that point that compassion which imputes holiness incrementally to us by the compassion of his grace keeps us covered.

Well, my mind suddenly went completely blank. I'll pause for a bit.

Hello Jehonadab.

I accept that your previous post was written under duress. Should I add that
your present post also contains some loose ends. This is what you said;

That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. And of course that is our goal to aim at and exert ourselves to reach which is why Paul said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

You are maintaining a position that righteousness is obtained through personal effort
and striving. Here is a sample statement of yours 'we must acheive His level of holiness'.
This idea is contrary to the declaration of the scripture Jehonadab.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who
receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the
One, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is a gift awarded to us because we believe in Jesus Christ. We will not be
declared righteous because of how holy we can become. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the
platform on which our Christian life is based.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation
having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is
given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession,
to the praise of His glory.

The message of truth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, on believing in the Gospel you receive
the Holy Spirit. This is the pledge of God Himself to us, the gift of the Holy Spirit seals our
salvation. This is the work and power of God that delivers the reconciliation. We do not
and cannot contribute to this process. We accept what God has given to us in His Son, this
is the gift we receive.

 

[RJ]

DHC:
LOL, not one of my better posts I quite agree.

I have been battling illness that is draining me and this weather is not helping at all. So you just might have seen some crazy things coming out of my belabored mind lately.

Right now my brain is resisting me so I won't respond much for the moment but to say, 'Ya, that frontal lobe thingy is a dozy.' I had been listening to the science channel and they were discussing what studies show concerning where spirituality shows up increased activity in our brains. I was actually parroting their speculation as they said that the lower animals did not have that particular section in their brain. I could well have gotten the wrong name part, also.

Fuzzy brain syndrome. Now there is a reality I am often living proof of. LOL.

Added: "Yet no man could accuse God of having poorly designed them."

My point there is that perfection is not simply an aspiration, for it is evident in the scriptures that God changes the requirements for what he deems as perfection based upon the level of knowledge and wisdom of those whom he compassionately deals with so long as they listen to him with eyes and ears of faith. And so it is true that perfection for Noah and other men whom the scriptures say were tamiym in his eyes is our unchanging God's grace which has been active from the beginning of the world and forever. That perfection means only that we give him 100% of the best he sees we are capable of giving. And that principally involves being willing by faith to listen to him and do the little he asks of us at the given time. He is a very gentle and merciful God toward those who love him and by that love obey him.

However, in the following verse, (Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."), of course is an aspiration toward which we must climb, as holiness in his image is what that verse really is speaking of; as in. (Leviticus 20:7; 1 Peter 1:16) What we want to remember here is Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. And of course that is our goal to aim at and exert ourselves to reach which is why Paul said, Philippians 3:12 "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

We see that upward climb in places like as this one: Philippians 3:15-16 "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

In other words, don't regress in the progress you have made toward clothing yourself with his righteousness. And until that point that compassion which imputes holiness incrementally to us by the compassion of his grace keeps us covered.

Well, my mind suddenly went completely blank. I'll pause for a bit.

Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Let me get this perfectly straight. What you are saying is, not counting the perfection of Jesus in us already but we, personally, must achieve his perfect level of holiness as to how we treat others or we won't go to heaven when we die?

 

[Jehonadab]

Thus what Jesus is telling us in verse 48 is that we must achieve his level of holiness as to how we treat others, if we expect to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Let me get this perfectly straight. What you are saying is, not counting the perfection of Jesus in us already but we, personally, must achieve his perfect level of holiness as to how we treat others or we won't go to heaven when we die?

Essentially, yes. I believe there are two places we can go when we enter that kingdom. One is the place of the least. The others are matured fully to the image of Christ and therefore become co-rulers/priests in association with him. (Matthew 5:19)

There at Philippians 3:15-16 we should see two parts: "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded", and "if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." Thus Paul's conclusion is, "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

It is evident that we mature to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) at different rates not only from each other but also in different parts of our personality. I don't believe God will bar anyone who he knows is sincerely putting forth the effort to cooperate with his transformation of them by means of his word, which word contains his knowledge and wisdom that reshapes us spiritually.

That is important because it is our spirit which controls our minds. (Ephesians 4:23)

 

[RJ]

Essentially, yes. I believe there are two places we can go when we enter that kingdom. One is the place of the least. The others are matured fully to the image of Christ and therefore become co-rulers/priests in association with him. (Matthew 5:19)

There at Philippians 3:15-16 we should see two parts: "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded", and "if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." Thus Paul's conclusion is, "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

It is evident that we mature to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) at different rates not only from each other but also in different parts of our personality. I don't believe God will bar anyone who he knows is sincerely putting forth the effort to cooperate with his transformation of them by means of his word, which word contains his knowledge and wisdom that reshapes us spiritually.

That is important because it is our spirit which controls our minds. (Ephesians 4:23)

So, two questions then:

• I am not so perfect and I assuming you are.....so, I am not going to heaven but you are?
• Since you are perfect, you can do all the agape types of love in 1 Corinthians 13 and do them perfect also?

 

[Jehonadab]

Hello Jehonadab.

I accept that your previous post was written under duress. Should I add that
your present post also contains some loose ends. This is what you said;

You are maintaining a position that righteousness is obtained through personal effort
and striving. Here is a sample statement of yours 'we must acheive His level of holiness'.
This idea is contrary to the declaration of the scripture Jehonadab.

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who
receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the
One, Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is a gift awarded to us because we believe in Jesus Christ. We will not be
declared righteous because of how holy we can become. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the
platform on which our Christian life is based.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation
having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is
given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession,
to the praise of His glory.

The message of truth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, on believing in the Gospel you receive
the Holy Spirit. This is the pledge of God Himself to us, the gift of the Holy Spirit seals our
salvation. This is the work and power of God that delivers the reconciliation. We do not
and cannot contribute to this process. We accept what God has given to us in His Son, this
is the gift we receive.

What we have here between our views is a mere matter of perspective. I believe that you will find our views are not so different after you grasp my perspective.

Similarly, if my eye were dark, it would be easy for me to jump to the conclusion that I already see your perspective and accuse you of claiming that there is no effort at all involved on our part. But, my love for you desires to believe that is not so.

I also know that when we talk to others we sometimes detect vacillation in their views. One time they give impression of one view and another time, another view. That is going to be found as we are all, or, at least I am, yet in the process of both learning and fully connecting the dots.

So, for now, just let me say in reply to your concern, quote, "You are maintaining a position that righteousness is obtained through personal effort and striving", that it works a bit of both ways. It is the power of God's word of wisdom which changes us and that no credit to us or our ability. But that word of wisdom from God teaches us how to do which is of no benefit unless we are willing to do. And that requires personal dedication and effort.

 

[Jehonadab]

So, two questions then:

• I am not so perfect and I assuming you are.....so, I am not going to heaven but you are?
• Since you are perfect, you can do all the agape types of love in 1 Corinthians 13 and do them perfect also?

Boy did you get a wrong number! Me? Perfect? No, I strongly suspect that if I even make it into his kingdom it will be at best as the least. But if he permits me there I will be grateful for any place he permits me.

I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Not only is that a daily process of learning for me, but it is also a daily process of holding on.

I'll share a little secret with you. I am at the age when my father and his father before him died. And my health has not been doing so well which causes me to believe my time is short.

That may make others wonder how then I can be at peace. And the only thing I can say about it is that I trust our loving Father and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what ever he decides for me is as it should be.

 

[DHC]

What we have here between our views is a mere matter of perspective. I believe that you will find our views are not so different after you grasp my perspective.

Similarly, if my eye were dark, it would be easy for me to jump to the conclusion that I already see your perspective and accuse you of claiming that there is no effort at all involved on our part. But, my love for you desires to believe that is not so.

I also know that when we talk to others we sometimes detect vacillation in their views. One time they give impression of one view and another time, another view. That is going to be found as we are all, or, at least I am, yet in the process of both learning and fully connecting the dots.

So, for now, just let me say in reply to your concern, quote, "You are maintaining a position that righteousness is obtained through personal effort and striving", that it works a bit of both ways. It is the power of God's word of wisdom which changes us and that no credit to us or our ability. But that word of wisdom from God teaches us how to do which is of no benefit unless we are willing to do. And that requires personal dedication and effort.

Hello Jehonadab.

We may have to seek more clarity from you regarding how you understand salvation and the way it is achieved.

Romans 5
17 ...those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

We receive the gift of righteousness through Jesus Christ, it is given to us as a free gift. We have the righteousness of Christ
and not by our own efforts. There is no other way to achieve a perfect level of righteousness. Scripture is silent when it comes
to anyone climbing the ladder of self righteousness. That is why salvation is only granted to the those who accept the Gospel
of Jesus Christ. You cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless you are clothed in Christ.

Luke 18:11
The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust,
adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

Was the pharisee righteous?

 

[RJ]

Boy did you get a wrong number! Me? Perfect? No, I strongly suspect that if I even make it into his kingdom it will be at best as the least. But if he permits me there I will be grateful for any place he permits me.

I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Not only is that a daily process of learning for me, but it is also a daily process of holding on.

I'll share a little secret with you. I am at the age when my father and his father before him died. And my health has not been doing so well which causes me to believe my time is short.

That may make others wonder how then I can be at peace. And the only thing I can say about it is that I trust our loving Father and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what ever he decides for me is as it should be.

• You are a very confusing person. First I asked: we, personally, must achieve his perfect level of holiness as to how we treat others or we won't go to heaven when we die? That would mean that you do this in this life. And you said essentially yes. And now, you say you don't have this level of perfection, so you don't expect to get into some higher level of acceptance in heaven and you even are not secure in the promise of obtaining his kingdom at all? That sounds like works and that you are afraid that you haven't done enough.
• Blessed Assurance Hymn:

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine;
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

• This is what I see:

1 Corinthians 13: 8-12
You believe that Jesus died on the cross for you sins and his resurrected spirit lives in you ( Born Again), you are save by your belief.
Stop thinking about what you must do now to secure your place in heaven and concentrate on allowing God to work through you. Your faith, just by itself, is a fruit of the spirit and a promise that secures your inheritence in heaven. When you die, your imperfection leaves and your perfection comes. You will see God face to face, he will only see Christ in you ( he already said he would look at your sin no more) and you will be glorified in his presence ( finally made perfect). You will know him as well as he knows you..can't get more perfect than that!
Your perfection does and can not happen in this life, though the goal is worthy! After that, I am like you, I will love being where ever he wants me to be, but my brother, we will be in his light and not in total blackness of his abscence...the light is heaven enough for me!

 

[Jehonadab]

Do you feel it is self-righteous to work the works that God gives us to do?

And do you think that we can work those works without we put forth effort from within?

And if those works are not a prerequisite of salvation then how is it that a tree bearing no fruit gets cut down and cast into the fire?

If you wanted to comb for proof in the words of Christ and the New testament Bible writers that this does require effort from us you would have no problem finding it, for it is abundantly there.

 

[Barny]

What we have here between our views is a mere matter of perspective. I believe that you will find our views are not so different after you grasp my perspective

Here's just a summary, from what I understand of points of view given, of the various views presented here on TJ.

James1523 claims that without perfect obedience to one part of the law (the 10 commandments) then we cannot enter into eternal life. James1523 has also indicated that in addition to any transgressions of the 10 commandments, if we commit any drunkenness, seditions, wrath, partying, etc then this also will exclude us from eternal life. James1523 also claims there is no death bed salvation as such persons have no works of the law to show they ever had faith. At the time of our parting this life we must be found perfect in obedience to the law (plus a few extra issues such as drunkenness, etc) at that moment.

B-A-C differs in that he claims some ambiguous, minimum standard of behavior (which varies depending on the individual) is required to enter into eternal life, although he seems reluctant to give any specific details on this. Whilst B-A-C promotes only one part of the law (the 10 commandments), he does exclude the Sabbath from our list of behaviors (which also includes drunkenness, partying, seditions,etc) that determines whether we can enter into eternal life or not.

Jehonadab, you seem to claim that most Christians will be the "least" in heaven as we're often not perfect in behavior to be called "great" in God's kingdom. No doubt therefore you describe the thief on the cross as "least" due to the fact that he had no opportunity to ever become perfect (which is rather unfortunate for any Christians who live a short life and had no opportunity to become "great" in God's kingdom).

RJ, DHC, and myself, simply believe on Jesus as the gospel commands, and we understand that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We understand that Christ's sacrifice sanctified us (Heb 10:10.) and made us holy (Rom 11:16.), and that in Christ we are complete (Col 2:10.). We believe that Christians have this all apart from our behavior. Although a Christian's behavior often does improve as they grow in Christ, it has no bearing on whether they are righteous or holy, etc.

Whilst we may all agree that one must believe on Jesus, the above examples show 4 different views on what this means.
I'd be interested to see how you reconcile these 4 differing views.