Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[Jehonadab]

I did not say we cannot keep the law perfectly. I said we cannot keep it perfectly 24/7, 365 days a year. If we could, then we wouldn't need a sacrifice or God's grace. But because of God's grace, we can keep the law perfectly, as did also Noah, Job, the parents of John the baptist.

• The "cannot 24/7, 365 days a year" is what I have been quoting to you for some time now.
• No, Noah and Job did not keep the law perfectly. Show me where what you say is written? Only Jesus has that distinction of being perfect and your denial of that is indicative of your lack of understanding grace!
• Noah and Job were not perfect but like Abraham, it was their belief that God credited them with righteousness.....hopefully, just like you James!

Sorry for butting in RJ, but I see something that needs to be addressed, (not that James won't see it, also.)

RJ, there is a difference between one being perfect and one being able to sin. Adam was perfect, yet Adam was able to sin and by sin to corrupt himself, thus rendering himself imperfect.

RJ, what do we learn from the following: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

God used that fleshly nation to demonstrate what he is working with us and all the world. God gave that nation the imputed status of the perfection Adam had before he corrupted himself through sin. That meant that those people were beginning with a clean slate before God and could now be judged solely on the basis of how they honored and obeyed that Old Law Covenant.

You, yourself, know and believe that the blood of Christ cleansed of sin. That, RJ, is an imputed status of righteousness or perfection to us, so that like as God demonstrated with that fleshly nation of Israel, we can begin with a clean slate before God and be judged solely based upon how we respond to the education and the law of the love that is in Christ.

So to say that we cannot be perfect is to deny that grace which imputes that perfection to us by blotting out our past and dealing with us afresh.

Now, there has been gross missed understanding of many of Paul's words, even as there has been concerning what David meant at Psalms 51:5, and this has led many to believe in a sin nature that exists apart from our corrupting ourselves through ignorance, thus making it impossible for those believing in that supposedly inescapable sin nature in the flesh to know that they can actually now stand uncorrupted in the essence of who we are in the sight of God by virtue of his grace having erased our past guilt.

Does sin have a nature? Yes. Does sin corrupt our nature when we do not avoid sin? Yes. Does lack of knowledge leave us open to and even likely to sin so that our nature becomes corrupted to sin's nature? Yes.

Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

Thus enters our need for Christ, the righteousness of God, our teacher, our mentor, our redeemer. That is why he was the end of that Old Law for righteousness to all who would believe and so submit to his education of them in God's righteousness.

The reason we die to ourselves and put on the one body with him is so that our flesh which has developed under that time of corruption by sin does not interfere with our education. If God erased that past, no longer holding it against us then we also need to let the past sin lay dead by not living for the whims of the flesh which was during that time corrupted by it.

This is why getting a child into sound Christian training from infancy and getting Christ formed in him right away turns out some very fine men, men who God has groomed and made so that they are perfect in his sight. That is why he began with the prophets from their infancy.

Most of us have to learn to let that flesh die because we have lived in it long enough by ignorance to corrupt it through sin.

Yet, even those prophets whom God groomed from birth, though perfect like as Adam was before he sinned could yet choose to sin. Perfect angels could exercise foolishness in their thinking and turn to sin. The ability to sin has nothing to do with perfection.

But when our love becomes so completely perfected that the likely hood we would ever choose to sin becomes zero, then we have achieved the point of God's blessing with immortality and the saying can then be true, death is swallowed up forever.

I expect you might challenge much of what I said. That is just a part of how any of us learn. Just please be humble to really think about what the spirit (not I of myself) is saying.

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Added: Heading off the objection that if any were perfect as Adam we would not have needed Christ, let me just explain that we belonged to the first Adam. His death sentence was yet upon all born of him and therefore even when God grooms us from birth to be perfect as Adam it yet requires Christ's sacrifice to make that possible. We yet need the imputation of righteousness by God's grace for him to even begin to perform that wonderful work in us.

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

 

[Jehonadab]

I cannot defend or deny B-A-C as to whether or not he has his, quote per your post 31, "focus is always on the physical, which only results in misunderstanding scripture." But I know that it is not the case with myself. I believe that the world will look after their own and that my job toward them is first to discern and supply their spiritual needs if they will accept it. Then, if they demonstrate an attitude of meekness I embrace them as a brother and, while their spiritual needs yet are my dominate focus of concern for them, I also look to care for their physical needs in a balanced way so as to not weaken them in their personal responsibility to provide for their own. I recognize that both spiritually and physically we are creatures of habit. I see that 1 Timothy 5:8 applies most importantly spiritually but also physically. And I see how any animal that we take upon ourselves like as a duty or even just a selfish pleasure to feed begins to be corrupted away from their natural means of providing for themselves. Thus we see wild animals that approach the cars of tourists and enter cities to search human rubbish containers rather than foraging for themselves as is normal. We are warned that over feeding birds or squirrels can cause them to lose memory of how to fend for themselves. We know that a dog will not hunt if we over feed him and cats will come to depend upon a bowl being laid out for them rather than to chase mice. So I know there is a great deal of validity to what you are saying. But there is a balance both ways, for we can choke babes in Christ if we feed them more spiritually at one time than they can handle. Jesus set that example for us: John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."

Similarly, what James said at James 2:14-17 and what John said at 1 John 3:14,17 applies both spiritually and physically toward our brothers. 1 John 3:17 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" Clearly John says that to not perform the physical work out of our material surplus of supplying this world's needs to a brother means the love of God is not really in us.

I'll stop right there for now.

 

[DHC]

RJ, there is a difference between one being perfect and one being able to sin. Adam was perfect, yet Adam was able to sin and by sin to corrupt himself, thus rendering himself imperfect.

Hello Jehonadab.

An interesting thread to date.

Hope you do not mind if I comment on one of your statements.

RJ, there is a difference between one being perfect and one being able to sin. Adam was perfect,
yet Adam was able to sin and by sin to corrupt himself, thus rendering himself imperfect.

The scripture does not state that Adam was perfect. Adam was only flesh and blood and exactly
the same as you and I. Adam existed in the created realm which also was not perfect. Perfection
is an ideal but never a reality in the created order of things. Only in the spiritual realm is
perfection realised. Thus God is perfect because God is spirit. Hence, should a person seek
perfection then the new creation, the spiritual reality, is the only place that this would be possible.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life, but the new creation can inherit eternal life.
Flesh and blood is imperfect but the spiritual creation is already perfect.

1 Corinthians 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown
a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving
spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from
the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy;
and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the
earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[RJ]

Sorry for butting in RJ, but I see something that needs to be addressed, (not that James won't see it, also.)

RJ, there is a difference between one being perfect and one being able to sin. Adam was perfect, yet Adam was able to sin and by sin to corrupt himself, thus rendering himself imperfect.

RJ, what do we learn from the following: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

God used that fleshly nation to demonstrate what he is working with us and all the world. God gave that nation the imputed status of the perfection Adam had before he corrupted himself through sin. That meant that those people were beginning with a clean slate before God and could now be judged solely on the basis of how they honored and obeyed that Old Law Covenant.

You, yourself, know and believe that the blood of Christ cleansed of sin. That, RJ, is an imputed status of righteousness or perfection to us, so that like as God demonstrated with that fleshly nation of Israel, we can begin with a clean slate before God and be judged solely based upon how we respond to the education and the law of the love that is in Christ.

So to say that we cannot be perfect is to deny that grace which imputes that perfection to us by blotting out our past and dealing with us afresh.

Now, there has been gross missed understanding of many of Paul's words, even as there has been concerning what David meant at Psalms 51:5, and this has led many to believe in a sin nature that exists apart from our corrupting ourselves through ignorance, thus making it impossible for those believing in that supposedly inescapable sin nature in the flesh to know that they can actually now stand uncorrupted in the essence of who we are in the sight of God by virtue of his grace having erased our past guilt.

Does sin have a nature? Yes. Does sin corrupt our nature when we do not avoid sin? Yes. Does lack of knowledge leave us open to and even likely to sin so that our nature becomes corrupted to sin's nature? Yes.

Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

Thus enters our need for Christ, the righteousness of God, our teacher, our mentor, our redeemer. That is why he was the end of that Old Law for righteousness to all who would believe and so submit to his education of them in God's righteousness.

The reason we die to ourselves and put on the one body with him is so that our flesh which has developed under that time of corruption by sin does not interfere with our education. If God erased that past, no longer holding it against us then we also need to let the past sin lay dead by not living for the whims of the flesh which was during that time corrupted by it.

This is why getting a child into sound Christian training from infancy and getting Christ formed in him right away turns out some very fine men, men who God has groomed and made so that they are perfect in his sight. That is why he began with the prophets from their infancy.

Most of us have to learn to let that flesh die because we have lived in it long enough by ignorance to corrupt it through sin.

Yet, even those prophets whom God groomed from birth, though perfect like as Adam was before he sinned could yet choose to sin. Perfect angels could exercise foolishness in their thinking and turn to sin. The ability to sin has nothing to do with perfection.

But when our love becomes so completely perfected that the likely hood we would ever choose to sin becomes zero, then we have achieved the point of God's blessing with immortality and the saying can then be true, death is swallowed up forever.

I expect you might challenge much of what I said. That is just a part of how any of us learn. Just please be humble to really think about what the spirit (not I of myself) is saying.

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Added: Heading off the objection that if any were perfect as Adam we would not have needed Christ, let me just explain that we belonged to the first Adam. His death sentence was yet upon all born of him and therefore even when God grooms us from birth to be perfect as Adam it yet requires Christ's sacrifice to make that possible. We yet need the imputation of righteousness by God's grace for him to even begin to perform that wonderful work in us.

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Jehonadab,
Yes, you and James do sound alike. If you are truly Christian, what church do you attend?

• Are you Jehova's Witness?
• Who are you? Do you pehaps consider yourself a descendant of Abraham through Ishmael? Are you an independent order of Rechabite?
• If I am understanding you both right, I will stand before God and denounce what you say.
• I stand on my original post that you responded to above.
• James has already stated it to me and I can only assume you feel the same way; that Noah and Job were equal to Jesus Christ in perfection.
• This is a Jesus Christ forum and here, Jesus Christ rules and there is and has been no other to compare to him. No one was or ever can be the absolute and unblemished perfection that he is.
• Jehonadab, do you and James believe in the trinity?
• Jehonadab, Jesus was God and is God, do you believe that?
• Jehonadab, Jesus is either who he said he was, God, or he is a liar. As our final atonement, Jesus was the absolute, unblemished sacrifice, God's grace could be nothing less and no one can compare in his perfection..least of all you and James!
• Jehonadad, James said that Noah and Job were as perfect as Jesus was, do you? If you do, you have committed blasphemy!

 

[Jehonadab]

Hello Jehonadab.

An interesting thread to date.

Hope you do not mind if I comment on one of your statements.

The scripture does not state that Adam was perfect. Adam was only flesh and blood and exactly
the same as you and I. Adam existed in the created realm which also was not perfect. Perfection
is an ideal but never a reality in the created order of things. Only in the spiritual realm is
perfection realised. Thus God is perfect because God is spirit. Hence, should a person seek
perfection then the new creation, the spiritual reality, is the only place that this would be possible.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life, but the new creation can inherit eternal life.
Flesh and blood is imperfect but the spiritual creation is already perfect.

1 Corinthians 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown
a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving
spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from
the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy;
and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the
earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

No, I don't mind at all if you comment on my posts. You are quite welcome.

The weight of scripture shows not that perfection is an ideal but that perfection is a standard of measurement, set by God. God creates all things for a purpose and he does not poorly create anything. The lower animals never knew sin but they are mortal because that is the way God purposed them to be. They are perfect by God's purpose for them but to the extent that we have corrupted them away from the nature he purposed for them. Yet even before that they died. They died and were never given a hope to do anything but serve the environment of this earth, add to it's fascination, and die. Yet no man could accuse God of having poorly designed them.

The lower animals know no spirituality. Adam, on the other hand was created with a frontal lobe in his brain that made him capable of maturing as a spiritual person who could understand and image God's spiritual nature in the flesh. Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken<[give life to] your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Similarly, God did not purpose that Adam be already mature spiritually. God merely asked Adam to love and obey him like a young child learns by being obedient to it's parents. And there was nothing to tempt Adam to do otherwise until he was tempted externally by his wife Eve, who herself was introduced to lust by the external prodding of the serpent and the force behind that serpent.

I have heard just about every manner of viewing this and it is interesting that it was a man who believes Christ was born with our sin already in his flesh that last explained this to me the way you have. That man claimed that lust was in Adam by God's design of him. Much of that is Muslim influence infiltrating the church over the years for that is what they teach.

So then, what did Paul mean there at 1 Corinthians 15:42-46?

Paul is speaking only of the man Adam who had not given himself opportunity through loyal love and obedience to God to reach the point where God would bestow immortality upon him. Mortality is only God's ability to take away life simply by no longer sustaining it. Immortality is merely God's blessing to love that has so matured it becomes unbreakable. God supports life, all life, even that of the angels, else they are no more.

Adam was not imperfect in that state before he chose to allow an external inducement to become more important to him than his love and obedience to his heavenly Father. What is corruption? Is not corruption what constitutes falling from perfection? Then God would have had to have created Adam with corruption already in him if Adam was not perfect. Adam was perfect by God's intended purpose for him at that time. Adam made a choice he did not have to make and by that choice Adam corrupted himself thus then Adam became imperfect, but not until then. We corrupt ourselves: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation." Genesis 6:12 "And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." Douay-Reihms reads at Genesis 6:12 "And when God had seen that the earth was corrupted (for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth,)", as do many other Bibles for that is what is meant. They corrupted themselves. And now we must owe up to that and take responsibility, which many rebel against doing.

So Paul is correct that "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" but Paul did not mean that made Adam imperfect. Paul knew and said things in many places in his letters that show he knew that what makes a man imperfect is stepping outside God's purposed place for him to be at any given time.

Paul was a spiritual man of God and he did not labor to worry about what was literally going to happen to our physical flesh as he had full faith God has that all well within his power to handle. John, just as Paul, kept the attention turned back to spiritual things and as far as the physical things go, said: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

There at 1 Corinthians 15 it is extremely difficult for most people to understand because they have a tendency to think physically. But Paul was there upset that so many in the congregation at Corinth were fretting so over the physical and this was leaving the way open for doubts to be sown among them by the opposition. So to really understand what Paul is saying there one has to first fight away seeing physically, appreciating that Paul was trying to steer them back to thinking spiritually. He was very annoyed with their physical thinking after all the hard work he had done with them: 1 Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.." And there he was alluding back to the very same thing he spoke of to the Roman congregation as recorded for us at Romans chapter 6.

I am going to leave it there for now and give you a bit of time to think about and digest what I have already said before I proceed to go any deeper.

 

[Jehonadab]

Jehonadab,
Yes, you and James do sound alike. If you are truly Christian, what church do you attend?

• Are you Jehova's Witness?
• Who are you? Do you pehaps consider yourself a descendant of Abraham through Ishmael? Are you an independent order of Rechabite?
• If I am understanding you both right, I will stand before God and denounce what you say.
• I stand on my original post that you responded to above.
• James has already stated it to me and I can only assume you feel the same way; that Noah and Job were equal to Jesus Christ in perfection.
• This is a Jesus Christ forum and here, Jesus Christ rules and there is and has been no other to compare to him. No one was or ever can be the absolute and unblemished perfection that he is.
• Jehonadab, do you and James believe in the trinity?
• Jehonadab, Jesus was God and is God, do you believe that?
• Jehonadab, Jesus is either who he said he was, God, or he is a liar. As our final atonement, Jesus was the absolute, unblemished sacrifice, God's grace could be nothing less and no one can compare in his perfection..least of all you and James!
• Jehonadad, James said that Noah and Job were as perfect as Jesus was, do you? If you do, you have committed blasphemy!

I am not a Jehovah's Witness
I am a member of the church of the firstborn enrolled in heaven as spoken of by Paul at Hebrews 12:22-24 and am a free spirit in the earth, a true sojourner.
Stand on your original post then and denounce what you feel you must. I accept that is your right. That creates no hard feelings in me.
No way do believe that any who bear imputed perfection for the purpose of learning more each day to love as God loves can be equal to the perfection of Christ, not even if we live a million years, for he was in the beginning with God and is the very Word of God.
I do not know what James believes in regard to the Trinity and I stated immediately above this line what I believe.
I believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God in the flesh.
I prefer not to be so bold as to claim that God could be a liar knowing my own limited knowledge pales into non-existence compared to him.
No, I do not believe that Noah and Job were as perfect as Jesus, as I said, none of us whether we would go to heaven and live forever cannot catch up to him.

I sincerely hope that my taking time to answer those questions for you brings you peace.

With Brotherly Love

 

[james1523]

The "cannot 24/7, 365 days a year" is what I have been quoting to you for some time now.
No, Noah and Job did not keep the law perfectly. Show me where what you say is written? Only Jesus has that distinction of being perfect and your denial of that is indicative of your lack of understanding grace!
Noah and Job were not perfect but like Abraham, it was their belief that God credited them with righteousness.....hopefully, just like you James!

It is written here:
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

You say Noah and Job did not keep the law perfectly, yet these verses say they were blameless, upright and perfect.

"it was their belief that God credited them with righteousness.", and their works: James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

Modern day Christian (protestant, evangelical) doctrine says that Jesus was the only perfect person and that we are justified by faith alone. You have to lay that man-made theology aside and believe in what the Word of God says plain and simple - Jesus was not the only perfect person (He was the only person who never ever sinned), and we are saved not by faith alone but faith and obedience.

 

[james1523]

And how do we sin no more?
We believe on Jesus, as is God's will, John 6:40.
Thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Thus we are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9
Therefore Satan, the accuser, can not charge us with ANYTHING, Rom 8:33.
Hence, in Christ, we "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9), we've "ceased from sin" (1 Pet 4:1.
That's how we "sin no more".

I agree that belief in Christ, is all part of not sinning anymore, as it deals with the flesh and gives us the power of the Spirit. But "go and sin no more", means don't do that sin again. Means don't break the law again.
It also means we put to death the sinful nature (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5), which implies our own effort is required, and is not accomplished merely by faith alone.

James1523 you are not merely saying that you simply keep the commandments as a result of grace through faith. You go much further than that. You preach judgement/condemnation to any Christian who does not obey the law perfectly. You even claim that there is no such thing as death bed salvation as such persons have no works of the law to show their faith.

You are welcome to quote me where I judged/condemned anyone who does not obey the law perfectly.

I am skeptical of death bed salvation, most are probably people wanting to live like the devil their whole life and get a ticket to heaven when they die.

 

[james1523]

Jehonadab,
Yes, you and James do sound alike. If you are truly Christian, what church do you attend?
Are you Jehova's Witness?
Who are you? Do you pehaps consider yourself a descendant of Abraham through Ishmael? Are you an independent order of Rechabite?
If I am understanding you both right, I will stand before God and denounce what you say.
I stand on my original post that you responded to above.
James has already stated it to me and I can only assume you feel the same way; that Noah and Job were equal to Jesus Christ in perfection.
This is a Jesus Christ forum and here, Jesus Christ rules and there is and has been no other to compare to him. No one was or ever can be the absolute and unblemished perfection that he is.
Jehonadab, do you and James believe in the trinity?
Jehonadab, Jesus was God and is God, do you believe that?
Jehonadab, Jesus is either who he said he was, God, or he is a liar. As our final atonement, Jesus was the absolute, unblemished sacrifice, God's grace could be nothing less and no one can compare in his perfection..least of all you and James!
Jehonadad, James said that Noah and Job were as perfect as Jesus was, do you? If you do, you have committed blasphemy!

Sorry RJ I think you have misunderstood. I said that Noah and Job were blameless/perfect, as the Bible clearly states (God called them that, not me) not as perfect as Jesus, as in never able to sin or without sin.

 

[Barny]

I agree that belief in Christ, is all part of not sinning anymore, as it deals with the flesh and gives us the power of the Spirit. But "go and sin no more", means don't do that sin again. Means don't break the law again.
It also means we put to death the sinful nature (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5), which implies our own effort is required, and is not accomplished merely by faith alone.

The sinful nature (Flesh) seeks to establish righteousness by works of the law. The flesh does not want to submit to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3).

But, for Christians, we are no longer in the flesh. Instead we are in the Spirit, Rom 8:9.

And how do we "sin no more"?
Christians are in the Spirit hence we have "ceased from sin"(1Pet 4:1.), "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.
How is this so?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We are not under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
And remember that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
Hence Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with Sin/Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4
He cannot accuse us of Sin/Unrighteousness 1John 5:17.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

But those in the flesh (sin nature) are in unbelief.
They cannot accept that anybody is righteous by faith unless there is physical evidence through perfect works of the law. In other words they reject Christ's sacrifice and demand that perfect works of the law must be attained as evidence that they have "ïmparted" righteousness.
Those in the flesh lust after Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Thus they make themselves a sinner as they bring themselves under the law and fail to keep it perfectly (Rom 3:19, James 2:10).
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor. Sinner

Scripture has warned about such doctrines that attempts to subtly lure people away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

You are welcome to quote me where I judged/condemned anyone who does not obey the law perfectly.

I am skeptical of death bed salvation, most are probably people wanting to live like the devil their whole life and get a ticket to heaven when they die.

The thief on the cross had death bed salvation.

Regarding my point about your judgement/condemnation I refer you to your claim that without obedience to the law (10 commandments) then one cannot enter into eternal life. No doubt you recall this claim, but if not then let me know and I'll search back through your posts to find it.

BTW, the 10 commandments are part of the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness).

Where we differ is in what we each understand is works that shows our faith.

 

[james1523]

The thief on the cross had death bed salvation.

Regarding my point about your judgement/condemnation I refer you to your claim that without obedience to the law (10 commandments) then one cannot enter into eternal life. No doubt you recall this claim, but if not then let me know and I'll search back through your posts to find it.

BTW, the 10 commandments are part of the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness).

Where we differ is in what we each understand is works that shows our faith.

If I said that we cannot enter life without obedience to the law, I was paraphrasing what Jesus said:

Matt 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments


So if this is judgement/condemnation to you, then you must also believe that Jesus was judging/condemning.


Our work to believe on Jesus, is not to the exclusion of the other works that are required. When we read the rest of scripture rightly, especially the book of James, belief in Jesus is not just belief in the heart but corresponding action that shows our faith is living. This includes confession with the mouth, and being water baptised.

Gill's commentary on the Bible in John 6:29 says "there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ."

 

[Barny]

If I said that we cannot enter life without obedience to the law, I was paraphrasing what Jesus said:

Matt 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments
So if this is judgement/condemnation to you, then you must also believe that Jesus was judging/condemning.

The law of sin and death is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
But under the law all mankind was guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

When Jesus preached the law that was BEFORE he went to the cross.

Note also Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus abided by this.
Yet he also brought in the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness, 2Cor 3:7-11.
Hence we are now saved by grace and not by works of the law.
Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.

Regarding your paraphrasing Jesus in Matt 19:17, note the verses after that.
Matt 19:20-21
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Here Jesus is sharing the gospel of grace with that young man who realized that he lacked in spite of works of the law.

Our work to believe on Jesus, is not to the exclusion of the other works that are required. When we read the rest of scripture rightly, especially the book of James, belief in Jesus is not just belief in the heart but corresponding action that shows our faith is living. This includes confession with the mouth, and being water baptised.

Gill's commentary on the Bible in John 6:29 says "there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ."

As I said in another post, believing on Jesus (our works, John 6:29.) manifests itself in our desire to preach the gospel of Christ to the spiritually hungry, spiritually thirsty, spiritually naked, spiritually sick, spiritual strangers, and those in spiritual prison. Hence we see in Matt 25 where the sheep and goats are separated. The goats did not confess Jesus before mankind.

We see it also in Matt 7 where it speaks of those who say "Lord, Lord"but are told to depart.
Why?
Because they did not do the will of God, which is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
Instead we see that they are told to depart as they are workers of "lawlessness".

And how does one get charged with "lawlessness"?
Such are UNDER the law for righteousness. Remember that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
And anyone UNDER the law will fail to keep it perfectly (Rom 3:19, James 2:10.)

Christians are NOT under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, hence we cannot be charged with "lawlessness" (Sin).

Also our works of believing on Jesus manifests in that we do not lust after Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Christians do not fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
And this is consistent with God's will.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10.), that ye should abstain from fornication (with Hagar, symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).:

 

[Jehonadab]

Wow, all of you are making some very good comments which show me that you both have the love of God in you that moves you to look deeper rather than merely caring about being right.

Barny, you quoted James as saying: "Our work to believe on Jesus, is not to the exclusion of the other works that are required. When we read the rest of scripture rightly, especially the book of James, belief in Jesus is not just belief in the heart but corresponding action that shows our faith is living. This includes confession with the mouth, and being water baptised.

Gill's commentary on the Bible in John 6:29 says "there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ." End of quote."

I, too, am a bit uneasy with that. For, in my mind belief in Christ encompasses dying to our own ways and living solely for Christ. Now if we be dead and are living solely for Christ, one body and one spirit with him, then there is no "other" remaining for us. The only way we could yet have law other than that in Christ by his spirit would be if we had not lain our flesh down to die. That would be like having one foot in Christ and the other foot in an independent nature, which is what our old nature was, independent of God's righteousness in Christ and dependent upon our own righteousness.

It goes back to a previous post where I said that as Romans 13:8-10 shows love fulfills all of that Old Law, then we yet do by spirit those things but not by dictation of a written law of demand with the threat of death as compulsion. Instead, now love is our compulsion. Love moves us to believe in and imitate Jesus Christ the son of man/Son of God while he was yet in the flesh, before his death ended that Old Law so that we could now keep it's righteous spirit by the power of the love of God rather than the threat of death.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I see much in common between what you and James say but for really fine details and of course his comment on "other works", which he admits is him trusting in the man who authored Gill's commentary. Gill has to grow and learn like all the rest of us.

 

[james1523]

The law of sin and death is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
But under the law all mankind was guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

When Jesus preached the law that was BEFORE he went to the cross.

Note also Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus abided by this.
Yet he also brought in the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness, 2 Cor 3:7-11
Hence we are now saved by grace and not by works of the law.
Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.

Regarding your paraphrasing Jesus in Matt 19:17, note the verses after that.
Matt 19:20-21
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Here Jesus is sharing the gospel of grace with that young man who realized that he lacked in spite of works of the law.

Jesus said many things before he went to the cross, does this mean they are all invalid now? - Jesus also said we must believe in Him before he went to the cross (eg John 5:24).

In Rom 10:4, end does not mean the law is abolished. It means it is completed, fulfilled. It means Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness. The same meaning for "end" is found in 1 Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

As I said in another post, believing on Jesus (our works, John 6:29.) manifests itself in our desire to preach the gospel of Christ to the spiritually hungry, spiritually thirsty, spiritually naked, spiritually sick, spiritual strangers, and those in spiritual prison. Hence we see in Matt 25 where the sheep and goats are separated. The goats did not confess Jesus before mankind.

We see it also in Matt 7 where it speaks of those who say "Lord, Lord"but are told to depart.
Why?
Because they did not do the will of God, which is to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
Instead we see that they are told to depart as they are workers of "lawlessness".

And how does one get charged with "lawlessness"?
Such are UNDER the law for righteousness. Remember that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
And anyone UNDER the law will fail to keep it perfectly (Rom 3:19, James 2:10.)

Christians are NOT under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9, ence we cannot be charged with "lawlessness" (Sin).

Also our works of believing on Jesus manifests in that we do not lust after Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).
Christians do not fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
And this is consistent with God's will.
1 Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification (which we have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10.), that ye should abstain from fornication (with Hagar, symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).:

The spiritualizing of those passages is not warranted. In any case, in Matt 7, those who call Jesus Lord are believers, and they prophesied and work miracles by the power of the Spirit. Only believers in Christ call Jesus Lord. Their lawlessness therefore is not unbelief as you claim, but disobedience to God's law.

Matt 7:22 says the number of people in this category will be "many". Who else could it be other than the "many" Christians who believe that salvation is by faith alone and keeping the law doesn't matter? and the "many" Christians on forums such as this one, who propagate and defend such false doctrines?

In response to the book of James, which is the thorn in the side of Protestant evangelical theology - Christians usually have two responses. They either reject the book of James completely, ignoring it or preferring not to mention it, or they spiritualize the meaning of "works", which is what you have chosen to do. It was also a problem for Martin Luther, who called it an "epistle of straw".

The idea of salvation by faith alone without works doesn't come from the Bible but is part of a mis-quoted and misunderstood statement by Martin Luther. Luther believed that works alone saved no one, but only faith. However, he did not believe that faith only, without works, could save anyone. He believed that works were necessary for salvation, but do not cause salvation. Luther said something like "We are saved by faith alone but the faith which saves is not alone.". In other words, we are saved because of faith (the cause) and saving faith is accompanied by works (the evidence).

We need to understand that Paul is writing against a Jewish idea that works out of self-effort are the basis for justification, rather than faith alone. And James, makes clear that works are the proof of saving faith, so that saving faith is not without works. Both Paul and James are summed up by Luther's statement that we are saved by faith alone but the faith which saves is not alone.

 

[Jehonadab]

Let me try approaching this from another angle, using Paul himself as the example for our mindset.

Paul told the Galatians, Galatians 5:2-3 "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Yet Paul took Timothy and had him circumcised so as to not stumble the Jewish community they were going together to preach to:

Acts 16:1 "Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily."

Did Paul violate his own counsel of God? No. For we have great freedom in Jesus Christ, but not the freedom to make mountains out of mole-hills and be stumbling others in violation of God's love and desire to save all men.

1 Corinthians 10:23 "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

Added: What we see here is a matter of faith that our job is merely to scatter seed and to water but it is God who makes it grow. Ought we to rush the growth in our anxiousness as though it depends on us? There is great room for letting love reign among us, letting love cover over all but serious sins which incur death, and being content to gently nudge others the way of the spirit in Christ in less egregious matters. But sometimes we attach greater weight to a matter than God does. As david said, Psalms 103:10 "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities." and, Psalms 130:3 "If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?"

I would like to see a discussion of each of the ten commandments, one by one, with input on how it is that love fulfills them as Paul stated in Romans 13:8-10.

That might be the best way to help others get the feel for working out of the spirit through God's righteousness rather than our own. We can find many examples in the life of Christ and the Apostles.

 

[RJ]

It is written here:
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

You say Noah and Job did not keep the law perfectly, yet these verses say they were blameless, upright and perfect.

"it was their belief that God credited them with righteousness.", and their works: James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

Modern day Christian (protestant, evangelical) doctrine says that Jesus was the only perfect person and that we are justified by faith alone. You have to lay that man-made theology aside and believe in what the Word of God says plain and simple - Jesus was not the only perfect person (He was the only person who never ever sinned), and we are saved not by faith alone but faith and obedience.

You preach Heresy! I pray for your deliverence!

 

[RJ]

It is written here:
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

You say Noah and Job did not keep the law perfectly, yet these verses say they were blameless, upright and perfect.

"it was their belief that God credited them with righteousness.", and their works: James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

Modern day Christian (protestant, evangelical) doctrine says that Jesus was the only perfect person and that we are justified by faith alone. You have to lay that man-made theology aside and believe in what the Word of God says plain and simple - Jesus was not the only perfect person (He was the only person who never ever sinned), and we are saved not by faith alone but faith and obedience.

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
James, I can only guess why you mis-stated the this scripture (in order to support you theology). Genesis 6:9 ,The scripture says Noah was blameless in his generation...not perfect as you have quoted.....shameful!

 

[Jehonadab]

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect<[G5046], even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect<[G5046].

Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect<[H8549]: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

2 Samuel 22:31 "As for God, his way is perfect<[H8549]; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him."

Psalms 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect<[H8549], converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Genesis 6:9 "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect<[H8549] in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

 

[B-A-C]

Are you saying that you understand from this verse above that Jesus condemns Christians should they do any wrong?

Absolutely!!

John 5:22; For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 8:16; "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
Acts 17:31; because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Romans 2:16; on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 11:32; But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
2 Tim 4:1; I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
Rev 16:5; And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;

James 5:8; You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
James 5:9; Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:30; “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 9:39; Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.”

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the flesh, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jude 1:14; It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Jude 1:15; to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Even in the story of the sheep and the goats, Jesus executes judgement.

Matt 25:34; “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:41; “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46; These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[B-A-C]

You preach Heresy! I pray for your deliverence!

One thing I believe that @Jehonadad and @james1523 and myself believe that it seems you may not is that...
We are saved by grace and faith alone, not works.
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So OK, that's we get saved. But after we are saved works are different. ( James 2:14-26; )
Our physical behavior is what determines our spiritual condition.

Matt 17:9; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.