Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[RJ]

The answer to the question "Is repentance necessary for salvation?" is both yes and no. It depends on what is meant by the question. If by asking "Is repentance necessary for salvation?" the person means that the sinner must first repent, have a change of mind, and stop sinning in order to get saved, then the answer would be no. The reason would be that we are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by stopping sin and doing good--that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ, who bore our sins in his body on the cross 1 Peter 2:24, not by ceasing sin and doing what is right. When we receive Christ John 1:12, we are then justified by faith Romans 3:28, 4:5, 5:1 and it is the work of God to rgenerate us which then enables us to turn from our sins. Therefore, repentance is the result of regeneration (salvation)--not the cause of it.

• John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
• “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8.
• “Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.” James 1:17-18

On the other hand, repentance is necessary for salvation in the sense that we cannot be saved from God's righteous judgment without changing our minds about sin--without turning from it and seeking to honor God.

• Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
• Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
• Acts 17:30, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent."

Repentance is most definitely part of the gospel message, but we have to make sure that we do not make the mistake of saying that our salvation is because of our repentance. Again, we do not want to say that our salvation is a result of our stopping the doing of what is wrong and turning to do what is right. This would be salvation by works. This is a tricky issue among Christians as to whether or not the unbeliever who is a slave of sin Romans 6:14-20, who cannot understand spiritual things 1 Corinthians 2:14 and can do no good Romans 3:10-12, is able to make a choice to stop sinning based on his sinful nature. It would seem that the ability to repent must be granted by God Philippians 1:29; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25.
So we have to be careful when we ask if repentance is necessary for salvation. The real question is: "Is repentance the result of salvation?" And the answer to that is yes. But repentance is also part of the message of salvation that commands people to repent because turning from sin is what is right to do. Sin is against the nature of God, and that is why God always commands everyone everywhere to repent Acts 17:30. Just as he also commands that you will be holy 1Peter 1:16 even though we cannot be holy. God is the standard of perfection, and that standard is not lessened because of our inability. Therefore, repentance is commanded, as is holiness; and we have to depend on God for both.

 

[james1523]

Repentance is a result of something else not a cause. Repentance is caused by God touching our heart and convicting us of sin. This could happen before or after we believe in Christ.

I am saved as a result of (but not only because of) my own repentance. If I chose not to repent, as an act of my free will, I could not have received salvation. God doesn't force anyone. Repentance is something I had to do in order to be saved. Is repentance necessary for salvation, the answer is yes. Repentance is not salvation by works - it is called obedience. Repentance is not a work for salvation it is a condition.

Our salvation is a result of many things - Christ death on the cross, Christ's blood, the Romans who killed him, the Jews who condemned him, the Father who sent Him, the Spirit who resurrected Him, our sin, our fallen nature, the Holy Spirit, our faith, our repentance, the church, evangelism, the gospel, the Word of God, the preachers of God's Word, those that pray for us, technology (internet, transport etc). All these things have resulted in our salvation.

I can say I am saved because Pontius Pilat sentenced Jesus to death. I could say I am saved because King James authorized a bible so I could read God's Word. I could say I am saved because God touched my heart. We should not be so narrow minded to think that our salvation depended only on God or only on ourselves. It resulted from God, us, other people, and many other things. We cannot say our salvation is because of any one thing, but we must give God the glory and worship because He alone is sovereign and has done everything.

Repentance and faith are both the result of being touched by the Word of God and the Spirit. Repentance and faith go hand in hand but they are not the cause of each other.

The question of whether repentance is before or after is irrelevant, the important thing is that sinners repent, whether before or after faith, makes no difference.

As many scriptures indicate repentance after faith, there are also many which show repentance before salvation:

For example, people came to be baptized by John, baptism of repentance, before they became believers in Christ for salvation.

Sometimes repentance is the first thing that Jesus looked for from sinners, not faith:
Matt 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.

Luke 15:7 says some people don't need repentance, but sinners need repentance.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

A person who has been regenerated by faith is no longer a sinner, being justified by God they are righteous, and they normally do not need repentance.
If you're a sinner, then you need repentance. If you're not a sinner, you don't need it. It's as simply as that.

 

[Barny]

Your definition of repentance will reveal whether you are living under grace or works of the law.

For the legalists, repentance for Christians is repentance of transgressions of the law (sin, 1John 3:4).
Legalists wrongly put Christians under the law and therefore claim that they can be charged with sin/transgression of the law, and needing continual (but limited) repentance until they eventually attain the perfect obedience to the law that is required under their salvation doctrine.

The error in such false doctrines is that when legalists try to put Christians under, they law contradict scripture.
God tells us that Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18. 1Tim 1:9.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
As Christians are not under the law therefore they cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law (1John 3:4.) as it does not apply to them.

Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Once we receive Christ there is no more Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness that can be charged against us, as scripture confirms.
That flawed physical body, that will never be perfect, is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence we should not be judging righteousness by whether the physical can attain perfect obedience to the law. It's already dead (by faith) because of sin.

Legalists define repentance such that they bring themselves under the law. Hence whatever the law says it says to them, Rom 3:19.
In building up the law in their lives they make themselves a sinner.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner


Contrary to the error doctrine of the legalists, the gospel of grace speaks of a very different repentance. We see Heb 6:1 telling us that we repented from dead works.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

This is a once only repentance.
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Under grace, Christians had repented of dead works of self-righteousness. This is a once only repentance, as Heb 6 describes.
Under grace, Christians have submitted to God's righteousness. Hence we do not seek to establish righteousness by bringing ourselves under the law to determine whether we are righteous or not. It's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We obey God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

Hence we see that how we define repentance will reveal whether you are living under grace or works of the law.

 

[james1523]

For the legalists, repentance for Christians is repentance of transgressions of the law (sin, 1 John 3:4.

Sin is breaking the law: 1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God"

Repentance from sin is therefore repentance from transgressing the law.

 

[B-A-C]

I guess it could be a chicken and egg question.

Why come to Jesus unless you release you are a sinner and that you need to repent?
On the other hand, can you truly repent without Jesus?

There are some who say it is a progression, something like this...

I don't believe in Jesus.
I think I might believe in Jesus.
I think I could believe in Jesus.
I think I believe in Jesus.
I know I believe in Jesus.

This progression could take minutes, or weeks.

--------------------------------------------------
As a side note to the antimonian response.

Christians aren't under the penalty of the law, only the morality of the law.
Non-Christians are under both.

 

[Barny]

Sin is breaking the law: 1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God"

Repentance from sin is therefore repentance from transgressing the law.

I agree.
But you're missing my point.

Christians repented from "dead works" of self-righteousness, Heb 6:1
These "dead works" were sin, which we did when we were in unbelief.
Through those former "dead works" we were unrighteous, which is sin, 1John 5:17.
Through those former "dead works" the only measure for righteousness was the law, which required perfect obedience. And scripture confirms that under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

When we receive Christ we repented ( a once only repentance, Heb 6:4-6) of our "dead works", which is Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness.

What did Christians repent of?
We repented of "dead works" in trying to attain righteousness through works of the law.
Whilst the law is good, just, holy (Rom 7:12.), mankind could not attain righteousness through the law, hence the whole world became guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

So what are the good works that we can do to attain righteousness?
It's to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. These are the works that shows our faith.
For us to believe on Jesus is God's will, John 6:40
Thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

The law, however, is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
Those who choose the law only succeed in making themselves a sinner, facing the death penalty.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner

Repenting of Sin/Dead Works, is to repent of trying to attain SELF-righteousness.
Christians have repented of their "dead works" and have submitted to God's righteousness. Hence Christians do not turn back to the law to determine our righteousness. This would be like a dog returning to it's vomit (dead works/sin). It would be rejecting the righteousness we have in Christ, which is described as having trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace Heb 10:29.

The above only applies to those who had truly known Christ, as described in Heb 6:4,5
those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come

I suspect many legalists never knew Christ anyway, even though they profess "Lord, Lord...". Such are still able to repent of their "dead works" and receive Christ and be clothed with the robes of righteousness.

 

[Barny]

.Christians aren't under the penalty of the law, only the morality of the law..

Hi B-A-C,

If you recall our debates, the issue has always been about how those who push the law are always preaching condemnation/death under the law. As you will no doubt recall, some legalists demand perfect obedience to the law and some others insist upon an ambiguous unspecified minimum standard of obedience or else condemnation/death results. Both these types of legalists are into "dead works".

 

[james1523]

I agree.
But you're missing my point.

Christians repented from "dead works" of self-righteousness, Heb 6:1
These "dead works" were sin, which we did when we were in unbelief.
Through those former "dead works" we were unrighteous, which is sin, 1 John 5:17
Through those former "dead works" the only measure for righteousness was the law, which required perfect obedience. And scripture confirms that under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.

When we receive Christ we repented ( a once only repentance, Heb 6:4-6) of our "dead works", which is Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness.

Dead works can be both sinful works and legalistic works of self-righteousness. Dead works are sinful works, because sin is being in a state of spiritual death with death for its wages (Ephesians 2:1, 5:11).

 

[Barny]

Dead works can be both sinful works and legalistic works of self-righteousness. Dead works are sinful works, because sin is being in a state of spiritual death with death for its wages (Ephesians 2:1, 5:11).

Sin=Trangression of the law, 1John 3:4
BUT
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
BUT
Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Hence Christians cannot be charged with "sinful works" as you claim.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Christians have "ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1
We "cannot sin" 1John 3:9
These scripture above confirm that it was only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
After we receive Christ there is no more Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness that can be charged against us.

The "dead works" that Christians repented of are similar to the "dead works" that you are endorsing in the doctrine you follow.
You preach a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. This is like a fountain bringing forth both sweet water and bitter from the same opening, James 3:11.
It cannot be.

 

[B-A-C]

Sin=Trangression of the law, 1 John 3:4
BUT
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
BUT
Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9

Hence Christians cannot be charged with "sinful works" as you claim.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Christians have "ceased from sin" 1 Pet 4:1
We "cannot sin" 1 John 3:9
These scripture above confirm that it was only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
After we receive Christ there is no more Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness that can be charged against us.

You start with Rom 3:19; Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

It says EVERY mouth will be closed, (they will have no excuse). It says ALL THE WORLD, thats's everyone, you, me, everyone.

Lets move to Rom 8:2; For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

It says we are still under a law. The law of the Spirit of life. However we are now free from the penalty of the law and death.

Next you have Rom 10:4; For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The law can no longer make us righteous. No one has ever disputed this.

Next you have Gal 3:24; Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Without the law, we wouldn't know are sinners, and we wouldn't know we needed Jesus. The law, is our tutor that leads us to Christ.

Then you have Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

These are contrasted by the next three verses which talk about deeds of the flesh. If you're doing any of the things below, you aren't led by the Spirit, therefore
you are once again, under the law. Obviously, deeds of the flesh, can't be spiritual deeds (such as spiritual fornication).

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's hard not to notice some of these are also commandments. (immorality = thou shalt not commit adultery, idolatry = have no other gods, envying = thou shalt not envy)
Then you have 1 Tim 1:9; I will put this in context by starting one verse ahead.

1 Tim 1:8; But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1 Tim 1:9; realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

The law isn't for righteous people (agreed). However, if you are ungodly, profane (if you curse) if you kill your mother or father, if you murder anyone,
if you are immoral, if you are a homosexual, if you are a kidnapper, if you are a liar, you are once again, back under the law.
Interestingly enough, a number of these are also commandments (honor father and mother, thou shalt not kill (murder), thou shalt not lie (perjury).

Next you have Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Notice verse 34 answers the question posed in verse 33. Jesus is the one who condemns. If you are living righteously, he intercedes for you, if not, he condemns you.

Next you have 1 Pet 4:1; Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1 Pet 4:2; so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3; For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4; In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;

Our flesh wants to do these things, it wants to be sensual, lustful, get drunk, etc... Of course if we do these fleshful things, we are once again under the law.
We are to make our flesh suffer, that is how we cease from sin. If you are still doing these things, your flesh isn't really suffering.

Next you have 1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

However,I know you prefer the King James translation here.

1 Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10; In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It doesn't say you CAN not sin, it says you DO not (doth not) sin. You make the choice not to sin. You have the ability to sin, you have to make the decision not to.
The next verse says he doeth not righteousness is not of God. Even if you don't love your brother (neighbor) you are not of God. The next verse says.

1 Jn 3:11; For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

From the beginning, from the old testament. If you aren't following the commandment of loving your neighbor, you aren't practicing righteousness.

Finally you finish up with Rom 3:25; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

I agree with your statement here, that this was only for "past" sins. This is similar to...

Acts 17:30; And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV)

In the past God "winked at" (acted like he didn't see) some of our sins, but now... he commands men everywhere to repent.

You are fond of saying you cannot mix works with faith. This is partially true, you can't mix works of the law ( Gal 3:5; ) however, faith without works is dead. Jas 2:14-26;
Which seems to be the total opposite of what you are saying. We can't get saved by works, but we can't stay saved without them.

 

[Barny]

Lets start with Rom 3:19; Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

It says EVERY mouth will be closed, (they will have no excuse). It says ALL THE WORLD, thats's everyone, you, me, everyone

The law is the measure for righteousness and as it says in the scripture above, all the world is guilty before God.

BUT, as it says in Rom 10:4.
Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes.

Here we see that Christians are not under the law for righteousness. Instead, it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Thus my point is confirmed by Rom 3:19

Lets move to Rom 8:2; For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

It says we are still under a law. The law of the Spirit of life. However we are now free from the penalty of the law and death.

Actually this scripture says Christians are SET FREE FROM the law of sin and death, which is consistent with the other supporting scriptures I quoted. Christians are not only set from from having to obey the law to prove whether they're righteousness or not, but the law's penalty of death does not apply to them as Satan, the accuser, can no longer charge Christians with sin/transgression of the law.

Note how it does not say we are only free from the penalty of death, which contradicts the legalists claim.
The law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness) is the law the legalists keep preaching

Next you have Rom 10:4; For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The law can no longer make us righteous. No one has ever disputed this.

Good to see we agree on this, although I suspect you meant to say that the law could never make us righteous.

Next you have Gal 3:24; Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Without the law, we wouldn't know are sinners, and we wouldn't know we needed Jesus. The law, is our tutor that leads us to Christ.

Again, we agree. And as this scripture explains, Christians are no longer under the tutor/the law.

Then you have Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

These are contrasted by the next three verses which talk about deeds of the flesh. If you're doing any of the things below, you aren't led by the Spirit, therefore
you are once again, under the law. Obviously, deeds of the flesh, can't be spiritual deeds (such as spiritual fornication).

You claim that if we obey the law then we're not under the law, but if we disobey the law then we're under the law.
I've heard such arguments before, and not only do they not make sense, but they're not supported in scripture.

Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:13,14.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Why would any Christian reject this and then insist that we must read scripture as a natural/physical man would?
We've discussed this before and I've quoted many scriptures all supporting the spiritual view of spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's hard not to notice some of these are also commandments. (immorality = thou shalt not commit adultery, idolatry = have no other gods, envying = thou shalt not envy)

It's interesting to note that some of them are not part of the 10 commandments.
But, that aside, what is listed above is all spiritual.
For example, I've already discussed with you previously how drunkeness is all spiritual.
Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

If we read scripture in physical terms, as the natural man would, then we would think there is a very popular harlot somewhere who is sought after by many all over the world for her services. And these same people are somehow getting physically drunk from a physical wine made from the physical fornication committed by this world renowned harlot.

Then you have 1 Tim 1:9; I will put this in context by starting one verse ahead.

1 Tim 1:8; But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1 Tim 1:9; realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

The law isn't for righteous people (agreed). However, if you are ungodly, profane (if you curse) if you kill your mother or father, if you murder anyone,
if you are immoral, if you are a homosexual, if you are a kidnapper, if you are a liar, you are once again, back under the law.
Interestingly enough, a number of these are also commandments (honor father and mother, thou shalt not kill (murder), thou shalt not lie (perjury).

Consider also the verses in 1Tim around the verses you quoted.
1Tim 1:7
Desiring to be teachers of the law...

1Tim 1:10,11
....sound doctrine. According to the gospel of the blessed God.

These verses add more to the context showing a contrast between grace, verses righteousness by works of the law.
With the above point in mind, I suggest that the verses you quoted are spiritual, and not physical.

Next you have Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Notice verse 34 answers the question posed in verse 33. Jesus is the one who condemns. If you are living righteously, he intercedes for you, if not, he condemns you.

If you recall, we discussed previously about what is living righteously.
I've noted 3 different views presented on TJ.

1: Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
OR
2: Perfect obedience to the law is to live righteously.
OR
3: Some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum level of obedience to the law is near enough to be considered to be living righteously.

I support option 1 above, which is confirmed in scripture. To live righteously is when one believes on Jesus. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

Option 2 is what is required under the law of sin and death, as described in James 2:10.

Option 3 is not supported in scripture and is so ambiguous that it cannot be of God.

Yes, Jesus did intercede for us on the cross. Our past sin was remitted. Once we receive Christ there is no more Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness that can be charged against us, Rom 8:33.

Next you have 1 Pet 4:1; Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1 Pet 4:2; so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3; For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4; In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;

Our flesh wants to do these things, it wants to be sensual, lustful, get drunk, etc... Of course if we do these fleshful things, we are once again under the law.
We are to make our flesh suffer, that is how we cease from sin. If you are still doing these things, your flesh isn't really suffering.

How does one make their flesh suffer so that they might cease from sin?
This is suggesting that Christ's sacrifice did not complete the job of dealing with sin, and that we have to finish off the work that Jesus failed to complete on the cross. This is like saying that Christ's sacrifice did no more to put away sin than what the sacrifice of bulls and goats did.

But, contrary to your claim, we see that scripture confirms scripture. Let's see again 1Pet 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6.), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6.) has ceased from sin,

This scripture speaks of believing on Jesus, thus we are baptized into his death (Rom 6:3.), and our faith is counted for righteousness. Thus we cannot be charged with Sin/Unrighteousness.

What we see in scripture regarding the legalists doctrine, is that the flesh wants to reject Christ's sacrifice and instead to bring works of the law back, thus making oneself a sinner, (Gal 2:18.). We see this described in scripture, in spiritual terms, as drunkenness, lasciviousness, lusts, etc.

Next you have 1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

However,I know you prefer the King James translation here.

1 Jn 3:9; Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10; In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It doesn't say you CAN not sin, it says you DO not (doth not) sin. You make the choice not to sin. You have the ability to sin, you have to make the decision not to.
The next verse says he doeth not righteousness is not of God. Even if you don't love your brother (neighbor) you are not of God. The next verse says.

1 Jn 3:11; For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

From the beginning, from the old testament. If you aren't following the commandment of loving your neighbor, you aren't practicing righteousness.

We just read in 1Peter that Christians have "ceased from sin".
This confirms 1John that says we "cannot sin"
And even if we use the term "practices sin" from a modern Bible translation, that also confirms the view that we "cannot sin".

Consider the definition of "practice"
1:To do or perform habitually
2:To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill:
3:To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill:
4: To work at, especially as a profession:
5:To carry out in action;

I see you prefer to follow definition No:1, which then contradicts others versions of the Bible which says Christians cannot sin.

I refer to definition No:5 which confirms other versions of the Bible that says Christians cannot sin.

Legalistic doctrine always tries to lead Christians back under the law, where there is no love/forgiveness. They hide this by speaking of love for one another, but then in the end we see they do not love in that they judge others as lost because they are either not perfectly obeying the law of sin and death, or they are not attaining some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard of obedience to the law of sin and death.

Legalists are like the servant who was to be put in jail for outstanding debts but was released thanks to the king's mercy. But then that servant the king forgave did not show the same love/forgiveness to a fellow servant who owed him money, and had him put in jail, Matt 18.
God forgave us and set us free from our debt. Christians are saved by grace. And we are likewise to show this same love/grace to one another, forgiving 7x70.

But legalists do not show the same love to others, hence they continue to preach the law, condemnation, death.

Finally you finish up with Rom 3:25; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

I agree with your statement here, that this was only for "past" sins. This is similar to...

Act 17:30; And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV)

In the past God "winked at" (acted like he didn't see) some of our sins, but now... he commands men everywhere to repent.

You are fond of saying you cannot mix works with faith. This is partially true, you can't mix works of the law ( Gal 3:5; ) however, faith without works is dead. Jas 2:14-26;
Which seems to be the total opposite of what you are saying.

And our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

So, are works of the law showing our faith, as you suggest?
Gal 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Phil 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The law is not of faith, so how can it possibly show our faith? It can't.
We see in scripture that works of the law shows that we reject faith in Christ.
Works of the law is unbelief.

 

[james1523]

Sin=Trangression of the law, 1 John 3:4
BUT
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
BUT
Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9

Hence Christians cannot be charged with "sinful works" as you claim.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Christians have "ceased from sin" 1 Pet 4:1
We "cannot sin" 1 John 3:9
These scripture above confirm that it was only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
After we receive Christ there is no more Sin/Transgression of the law/Unrighteousness that can be charged against us.

The "dead works" that Christians repented of are similar to the "dead works" that you are endorsing in the doctrine you follow.
You preach a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. This is like a fountain bringing forth both sweet water and bitter from the same opening, James 3:11.
It cannot be.

Which laws do you believe Christians are now under?
To belong to God's kingdom, or any kingdom, means we must abide by the laws of that kingdom. God has a government and an authority structure, He has laws by which we abide.

 

[Barny]

Which laws do you believe Christians are now under?
To belong to God's kingdom, or any kingdom, means we must abide by the laws of that kingdom. God has a government and an authority structure, He has laws by which we abide.

Rom 8:2 .
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

But of concern is that you preach a similar doctrine of the law of sin and death as the Pharisees did, except that you mix grace with it. This is what we continually differ on.

 

[RJ]

Rom 8:2 .
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

But of concern is that you preach a similar doctrine of the law of sin and death as the Pharisees did, except that you mix grace with it. This is what we continually differ on.

James, can you be honest and please answer a simple question: By what ever means you say you have, and concerning all the particular laws that you say you keep, do you personally keep these laws without ever missing one element ever, 24/7, 365 days and for ever?

 

[james1523]

Rom 8:2 .
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

But of concern is that you preach a similar doctrine of the law of sin and death as the Pharisees did, except that you mix grace with it. This is what we continually differ on.

The law of sin and death here is not the law of Moses but the law within our members and soul preventing us from doing good.

You are failing to see that the Law of the Spirit and the Law of Moses are both the same God's moral laws, communicated to us in a different way. If the Law of Moses says "do not murder" the Law of the Spirit is not going to contradict that. Given that, I fail to see the issue you have with God's laws.

 

[james1523]

James, can you be honest and please answer a simple question: By what ever means you say you have, and concerning all the particular laws that you say you keep, do you personally keep these laws without ever missing one element ever, 24/7, 365 days and for ever?

No one man not even Noah or Job who kept God's laws and was blameless, kept them 24/7, 365 days and forever, God never expected that from anyone.

 

[Barny]

The law of sin and death here is not the law of Moses but the law within our members and soul preventing us from doing good.

You are failing to see that the Law of the Spirit and the Law of Moses are both the same God's moral laws, communicated to us in a different way. If the Law of Moses says "do not murder" the Law of the Spirit is not going to contradict that. Given that, I fail to see the issue you have with God's laws.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVEN IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The doctrine you follow mixes works of law with grace and it even wrongly splits the law up to accommodate this lukewarm mix.

 

[james1523]

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVEN IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The doctrine you follow mixes works of law with grace and it even wrongly splits the law up to accommodate this lukewarm mix.

2 Cor 3:7-11 is talking about the written law, the written law is ministry of death. But the law written on our hearts, is not a ministry of death but of life. That is why it is called the law of the Spirit of life. Obedience to the law of the Spirit of life results in life, not in death. You probably have not realized that when the Bible says "the law" in the negative sense it means the written law of Moses, the law of letters. But does not mean Christians are without law. Christians are under the law of Christ (1 Cor 9:21), but they are the same law as far as God's moral law is concerned. If the 10 commandments says "do not murder", the law of Christ is not going to permit murder. So many "Christians" today are attacking the 10 commandments without realizing that they are the same moral laws as written in their hearts by the Spirit.

Unfortunately you have not come to know the truth which is that works are necessary for salvation, but are not the cause of it.
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

We are saved by grace through faith and genuine saving faith is shown by obedience to Christ which is by keeping His commandments. Faith is the cause and obedience is the result.

We need both faith and obedience to be saved and faith and obedience go hand in hand. A person with faith and no obedience does not inherit God's kingdom and so does not have saving faith and a person with obedience but no faith is a Judaizer and legalist.

Unfortunately you have distorted the true meaning of salvation by grace through faith, pretending it to be something separate from obedience to the Law, and preach a gospel which is not of Scripture nor believed by the Reformers.

Martin Luther said: “Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life."

And " Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!"

RC Sproul says "The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone."

You believe we are saved by a faith that is alone, and for this reason your gospel, the "gospel of Barny", is not the gospel of salvation.

The true gospel of salvation says we are saved by God's grace through faith alone, not of works, and because of this gift of grace, our saving faith is not alone but shown by obedience to God, and obeying God includes keeping His commandments which are not burdensome for us (1 John 5:3) because of everything Jesus did for us on the cross in dealing with the problem of our flesh and powerlessness to do good (Rom 6:2).

 

[Barny]

2 Cor 3:7-11 is talking about the written law, the written law is ministry of death. But the law written on our hearts, is not a ministry of death but of life. That is why it is called the law of the Spirit of life. Obedience to the law of the Spirit of life results in life, not in death.

Unfortunately you have not come to know the truth which is that works are necessary for salvation, but are not the cause of it.
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

We are saved by grace through faith and genuine saving faith is shown by obedience to Christ which is by keeping His commandments. Faith is the cause and obedience is the result.

We need both faith and obedience to be saved and faith and obedience go hand in hand. A person with faith and no obedience does not inherit God's kingdom and so does not have saving faith and a person with obedience but no faith is a Judaizer and legalist.

Unfortunately you have distorted the true meaning of salvation by grace through faith, pretending it to be something separate from obedience to the Law, and preach a gospel which is not of Scripture nor believed by the Reformers.

Martin Luther said: “Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life."

And " Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!"

RC Sproul says "The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone."

You believe we are saved by a faith that is alone, and for this reason your gospel, the "gospel of Barny", is not the gospel of salvation.

The true gospel of salvation says we are saved by God's grace through faith alone, not of works, and because of this gift of grace, our saving faith is not alone but shown by obedience to God, and obeying God includes keeping His commandments which are not burdensome for us (1 John 5:3) because of everything Jesus did for us on the cross in dealing with the problem of our flesh and powerlessness to do good (Rom 6:2).

God tells us that we cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
But the doctrine you follow rejects God's word on this.

Jesus tells us that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.
But the doctrine you follow rejects this too.

God tells us that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
But the doctrine you follow rejects this and claims instead that the law shows our faith.

Our works that shows our faith is to believe on Jesus, as scripture consistently confirms.
But the doctrine that you follow rejects this and by your works of the law (which is not of faith) you are actually denying Christ.

 

[james1523]

God tells us that we cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.
But the doctrine you follow rejects God's word on this.

Jesus tells us that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.
But the doctrine you follow rejects this too.

God tells us that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
But the doctrine you follow rejects this and claims instead that the law shows our faith.

Our works that shows our faith is to believe on Jesus, as scripture consistently confirms.
But the doctrine that you follow rejects this and by your works of the law (which is not of faith) you are actually denying Christ.

John 14:15, John 14:23, and 1 John 5:3 says we love Him if we keep His commands - it is the one denying His commands that is denying Christ. If you deny the commands of the King you deny the King Himself.