Not under the Law?

[james1523]

Unbelievers are held to account by the Law of Moses for Jews and the law of conscience for gentiles. Christians are not judged with the unbelievers but their works are judged separately not for salvation from lake of fire, but for reward or loss, approval or punishment 1 Cor 3:15-18. This will determine whether you get to rule over many cities (faithful servants) or are not allowed to live inside the city but in a lesser abode (unfaithful servants) (see Revelation 22). Many arguments are had with supporting verses on both sides between the law keepers and the grace-only preachers, because both fail to realise it is not always a heaven or hell issue, and the word salvation in the bible does not always refer to salvation from hell. It could be salvation from marriage problem, health issue, persecution, or salvation from God's temporal judgement in this life (through disease, loss etc). A believer who commits sins is not going to hellfire, depending upon the severity and reason for those sins, they will be judged either as an unfaithful servant at worst, or pardoned with grace at the second coming. Believing in Christ will save us FROM the lake of fire. But it doesn't necessarily save us INTO the New Jerusalem, and depending upon our faithfulness, we may have to spend eternity outside the city gates. In the old testament God saved the Israelites FROM Egypt, but only a few entered INTO the promised land, many languished in the desert. Many think there is only heaven or hell like a Roman Catholic doctrine of getting to heaven but minus purgatory, and don't regard what the scriptures actually say about what happens in the future. And when God saves you from the lake of fire because of Jesus, it is not because you have done what God has commanded in a religious way... it is not that you have done this so that God must do that.. i.e. you have believed so that God must save you.. It is because by belief in Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, who is eternal life, is living within you (your spirit and His Spirit are one spirit) and so you are God's child... the Bible says we are sealed with the Spirit so we belong to Him (Eph 1:13). It is because of this mark of ownership on you that you are saved.. not because of anything you have or haven't done.

 

[DHC]

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Hello B-A-C.

You did state;

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Now read the following;

Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,and whoever
murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with
his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his
brother, ‘Racca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be
in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember
that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and
go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25
Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your
adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be
thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till
you have paid the last penny.

Well B-A-C, what commandments are you referring to?

The commandment that Jesus gave sure does not resemble
"thou shall not kill". It looks as though the letter of the law
or commandment that Moses gave has been superseeded.

It would be incorrect to quote "thou shall not kill" when in fact
that is clearly not the case is it now.

What commandments are you referring to B-A-C?

 

[B-A-C]

It would be incorrect to quote "thou shall not kill" when in fact
that is clearly not the case is it now.

What commandments are you referring to B-A-C?

Obviously, the "new and improved commandments". I answered this at more at length in the "Did Jesus change the commandments" thread.
Matt 22:36-40; and Mark 12:28-34;

 

[B-A-C]

Grace can be abused ( Jude 1:4; ) just as the law can be abused by legalists.
The Bible presents a faith alone salvation. However that salvation always produces good works.
No works reveal the grace didn't take and the faith is superficial.

Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Matt 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Matt 5:16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

 

[james1523]

It is interesting that the only place in the bible where the words "faith" and "alone" are together, is where it says we are justified "NOT by faith alone" (Jas 2:4).

Romans 10:10 explains the conditions for salvation:
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

The heart believes..(toward God).. the mouth confesses (the corresponding action/work toward God and man). Both are necessary conditions for salvation. No doubt the thief on the cross believed in Christ, BEFORE he uttered a word to Christ. Yet it was the words that the thief spoke, the confession, that Christ needed to hear in order to save him, that is.. Luke 23:42 "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"....and only after he said this, did Christ say "you will be with me in Paradise". The thief's faith was shown by his actions.

This is why if you believe in Christ, it is important to call to Him in prayer at least once, to be saved. Many of us may have become Christians by praying a 'sinners prayer'...this is good enough. Well , did God save you because you believed, or because you prayed the sinners prayer? Actually to say that God saved you because you believed.. is true! and to say He saved you because you prayed the sinners pray.. is also true! God saved you because.. the belief and action went together... and the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[papajim]

You all keep arguing about the same thing and you are not getting anywhere this debate could go on for eternity. There two aspects to the gospel, the first is the imputed righteousness of God in Christ, this is what the theif on the cross recieved.
When we first except Christ we are covered by His righteousness as though we have never sinned. This is a gift of God and cannot be earned we can only reach out and take it. It was given to all mankind but you can't benifit from it unless you choose to reach out to Christ and recieve it. He will not force it on anyone. Bye the way this is the first act of faith this is being born again. Once we have recieved the imputed righteousness of Christ a change has taken place in the heart this is the imparted righteousness of Christ, I imagine the thief on the cross expierence this very process. The imparted righteousness of Christ is us growing up into Christ. As we grow our faith grows through as Barny mentioned in an earlier post "relationship", as the relationship and faith grows the righteousness of Christ grows in us, this is a natural process. None of us has perfect faith whe we first except Christ this is why we need the imputed righteousness of God in Christ. When we are first born into Christ we are only babes we know very little and understand very little the law then becomes our schoolmaster showing us the sins in our life, but when that faith comes we are no longer in need of the school master Gal. 3:24,25. Perfect faith brings the fullness of Christ in us at that point the law is no longer needed.

I wish Barny would have gone into the relationship more fully for this is key to sanctifation. Read the 17 chapter of John, This is Jesus's prayer, especially note verses 21-26. It is through this relationship that we are sacntified and only through this relationship can the law be written in our mind and hearts. Jesus gives, we recieve through faith.

 

[bgsda]

Hello can i add to DHC last reply, Jesus came to magnify the Law. Isa 42:21. Now some Bibles say magnify, mine say exalt and to make it honourable. When u magnify somethimg or exalt it in no way shape or form are u doing away with it.

People please be very careful aboit this subject alot of verses in the Bible teach about those who teach others to break or disregard the Commandments. Please read do your own study on this, try not to come in with any preconceived ideas. Jesus tells us to come as little children, why do u think He was always reasoning with the "they taught they knew it all Pharasses and Saducces". Because they had so many traditions and taught they were worshipping God, but werent Jesus told them inMark 7:7-9.

We are talking about the Law that is in all (Human) minds Heb 8:10. If u choose not to believe this and think its ok to kill, steal, cheat, have other gods, etc, then that is your choice. God is a God of love and allows us to choose. Is it right NO! But its your choice. We have to respect that.

But to try and say and teach or show others that its done away with and we can rape, kill, steal, and lie is just plain and simply ludicrous. I mean come on think about it. Its like Jesus in His day, walking around proving and showing these Jews (pharasees and saducees) that He is the Messiah. Being right in the midst of them, only thing they had to do is pick up their scrolls or Bibles and search or see and they would have seen it, that Jesus is the Messiah or Christ. It was pride that blinded those people, pride that they knew it already, pride that they cant be wrong, pride that oh no ive been in this place or churxh forr 20yrs and i cant be wrong. Thats pride that no one can come as a child to the foot of Jesus in His Word and simply search to see what others are saying is right or wrong.

Paul wrote some difficult things to understand 2Pet3:14-17, because Gid blessed him w/wisdom

 

[bgsda]

Most of the time if not all whatever verses you guys put up trying to prove that the Law is done away with your right. It is done away with. Moses Law the Law that the Jews where working for to atone for their sins. The ceremonial, sacraficial laws are done and nailed to the Cross Col 2:16-18, Eph.2. Not the Law that the same Paul say it is Spiritual, Holy, Just, Good, and kept himself even after Christ death.

Please dont be deceived and continue believing what was taught to u by other man. Read the Bible for yourselves, you are held accountanle for yourselves. Not your Bishop, Pastor, Elder,Mother, Father, etc. YOU no one else. Please consider this.

Its actually not hard to just see that we cannot kill, steal, have other gods, etc. Why fight this?

 

[B-A-C]

Its actually not hard to just see that we cannot kill, steal, have other gods, etc. Why fight this?

What is the difference between doing this and following the commandments?

 

[B-A-C]

If the only sin we can commit is "not believing in Jesus".
and if we can't even sin at all after we become Christians, then why do some people stop believing in Jesus?
Why do some turn away from Christianity? How could they do this if they are unable to sin?

 

[DHC]

Most of the time if not all whatever verses you guys put up trying to prove that the Law is done away with your right. It is done away with. Moses Law the Law that the Jews where working for to atone for their sins. The ceremonial, sacraficial laws are done and nailed to the Cross Col 2:16-18, Eph.2. Not the Law that the same Paul say it is Spiritual, Holy, Just, Good, and kept himself even after Christ death.

Please dont be deceived and continue believing what was taught to u by other man. Read the Bible for yourselves, you are held accountanle for yourselves. Not your Bishop, Pastor, Elder,Mother, Father, etc. YOU no one else. Please consider this.

Its actually not hard to just see that we cannot kill, steal, have other gods, etc. Why fight this?

Hello bgsda.

It is certainly not hard to see that we cannot steal.

Stealing did not carry the death penalty bgsda.

Why do you never quote the other more serious laws.

The following laws if broken carried a death penalty in Israel according to the laws of God.

Some folk only obey the first ten commandments Jewish commandments?

So it must be legal to kidnap, assault your parents, curse, be a witch, blaspheme God.

Kidnapping
Attacking one’s parents to cause them bodily harm: Exodus 21:15.
Cursing one’s parents: Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9.
Willful negligence that results in death
Sorcery: Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27.
Being a medium or spiritist: Leviticus 20:27.
Sacrificing to idol gods: Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13.
Trespassing in God’s holy things and places: Exodus 19:12,13; Numbers 1:51; 3:10,38; 18:7.
Blaspheming against God: Leviticus 24:10-16, esp. v. 16.
False Prophecy: Deuteronomy 18:20.
Contempt for the final decisions of the high court of the land: Deuteronomy 17:8-12.
Giving false testimony in a capital case

So it is permissible to commit these offences as a Christian bgsda?

Or do we really to obey the entire law?

I have no trouble seeing that stealing is wrong, but kidnapping someone's
child is far more serious!

 

[james1523]

If the only sin we can commit is "not believing in Jesus".
and if we can't even sin at all after we become Christians, then why do some people stop believing in Jesus?
Why do some turn away from Christianity? How could they do this if they are unable to sin?

Amen. There are a multitude of sins we can commit after not believing in Jesus..such as not obeying Him, not following Him, not being filled in Spirit, quenching the Spirit, grieving the Spirit, untruthfulness, prayerless.. the list goes on. And why if we cannot sin after believing in Jesus WHY did Jesus teach us to pray in the Lords prayer "Forgive us our sins". 1 John says those who say they have not sin are not in truth.
Even if we are the most perfect person on earth when we meet the Lord our reaction will be the same as Peter's "go away Lord I am sinful man". Seeing ones own sinfulness is always the first reaction when we meet the Lord because His bright light makes our dim light look like darkness.

 

[papajim]

Hello bgsda.

It is certainly not hard to see that we cannot steal.

Stealing did not carry the death penalty bgsda.

Why do you never quote the other more serious laws.

The following laws if broken carried a death penalty in Israel according to the laws of God.

Some folk only obey the first ten commandments Jewish commandments?

So it must be legal to kidnap, assault your parents, curse, be a witch, blaspheme God.

Kidnapping
Attacking one’s parents to cause them bodily harm: Exodus 21:15.
Cursing one’s parents: Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9.
Willful negligence that results in death
Sorcery: Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27.
Being a medium or spiritist: Leviticus 20:27.
Sacrificing to idol gods: Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13.
Trespassing in God’s holy things and places: Exodus 19:12,13; Numbers 1:51; 3:10,38; 18:7.
Blaspheming against God: Leviticus 24:10-16, esp. v. 16.
False Prophecy: Deuteronomy 18:20.
Contempt for the final decisions of the high court of the land: Deuteronomy 17:8-12.
Giving false testimony in a capital case

So it is permissible to commit these offences as a Christian bgsda?

Or do we really to obey the entire law?

I have no trouble seeing that stealing is wrong, but kidnapping someone's
child is far more serious!

Funny how you call these Jewish laws as if it only existed when God wrote them on stone or Moses wrote them down. . Abel sacrificed lambs. Gen.4:4. Cain new it was wrong to kill his brother. These laws existed long before the Jews came into existence. It goes even further back than that. When Satan fell from heaven he put himself before God and rebelled he wanted to be like the most high. Here he broke the first commandment thou shall have no other gods before me. If you would use a little reasoning and study you would find these things.

All sin carries the death penalty for "the wages of sin is death". Jesus payed that price for us.

 

[spirit1st]

Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Heb_7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[DHC]

Funny how you call these Jewish laws as if it only existed when God wrote them on stone or Moses wrote them down. . Abel sacrificed lambs. Gen.4:4. Cain new it was wrong to kill his brother. These laws existed long before the Jews came into existence. It goes even further back than that. When Satan fell from heaven he put himself before God and rebelled he wanted to be like the most high. Here he broke the first commandment thou shall have no other gods before me. If you would use a little reasoning and study you would find these things.
All sin carries the death penalty for "the wages of sin is death". Jesus payed that price for us.

Hello Papajim.

Firstly Papajim, no doubt you see law as eternal, moral, that is the character of God himself.

Hence, Satan must have broken the first commandment?

The issue you have is the very first commandment states;

Genesis 1
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,
and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every
living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This is the first word, instruction, command, that mankind received from God.

Now you know why I refer to Mosaic Law as Jewish Law!

Are we in agreement at this point Papajim?

 

[spirit1st]

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


He writes his New laws in our Heart! which were always the laws of Heaven , and his kingdom ! Love and Faith !
Love covers all the laws given to moses!

Heb_7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Rev_5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The old laws were in part ! Love and faith Full fills them 100%

nothing is greater than LOVE ! God is Love!

2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

Firstly Papajim, no doubt you see law as eternal, moral, that is the character of God himself.

Hence, Satan must have broken the first commandment?

The issue you have is the very first commandment states;

Genesis 1
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,
and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every
living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This is the first word, instruction, command, that mankind received from God.

Now you know why I refer to Mosaic Law as Jewish Law!

Are we in agreement at this point Papajim?

Hello HFC,
The way I see it is where there is sin there is law, so the law goes back as far as sin goes and it exsist as long as sin exsits through unbelief.
I disagree that that was the first command by God given to mankind. My bible tells me that God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and that the day he ate of it he would surely die,
which brings an interesting point. Adam and Eve had the divine nature in the garden before the fall and yet God gave them a command. Satan appears to Eve at the tree of knowledge of good and evil and decieves her into unbelief in what God had told Adam, through that unbelief Eve took of the fruit and ate it. Now where was the sin in eating the fruit or in the decision to eat the fruit? In the decision to eat the fruit of course, the act of unbelief was carried out in thier actions. If unbelief is carried out in acts of sin then faith is carried out in acts of righteousness. If where there is no sin there is no law then where there is sin there is law and the root of sin is unbelief.

It is not any different with us, through unbelief in what God in Christ has done for us we commit acts of sin. Jesus gave us God's righteousness so we don't just have His righteousness but we are to live His righteousness. To say that we cannot live that righteousness in this body is to show unbelief in the gift God has given us in His son. Through that unbelief we continue to do acts of sin, and where there is sin there is law. The problem is not in the gift, but in our unbelief!

As far as what you said about the command to be fruitfull and multiply and that made the law jewish I disagree, unless I have missed something and don't understand where you are coming from.

 

[spirit1st]

Adam and EVE never had what we have now! They could sin ! They were Not made in the image of JESUS CHRIST , WE ARE !
Adam loved Eve ! That what took place! He did not want to lose Eve ! So he chose Her over GOD ! The result was All man kind dying !
They did not have the nature of GOD , WE DO in our new creature!

I think and am guessing , they might have had the nature of the Angels ? they too could sin !

satan got KICKED out of heaven and GOD Kingdom because he wanted to be the GOd of this planet !
After he went before god with the other dumb fallen angels ! he defiled the old heaven by entering it !
that when he no longer could enter and God made a New heaven for Himself the angels and Us , NEW JERUSALEM ! satan CANNOT enter there nor those dumb angles that follow him ! he cannot go before GOD any more , he doomed!!!
all they have to look forward too is the lake of fire one day !

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

No evil can enter our new city [home]
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I believe this took place when JESUS was BORN !
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
They can no longer go before God or ever enter the New jerusalem !

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



This is talking about Mary and the birth of our LORD JESUS !
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Means He was Protected by GOD !No one could hurt or destory HIm of course!

 

[papajim]

Adam and EVE never had what we have now! They could sin ! They were Not made in the image of JESUS CHRIST , WE ARE !
Adam loved Eve ! That what took place! He did not want to lose Eve ! So he chose Her over GOD ! The result was All man kind dying !
They did not have the nature of GOD , WE DO in our new creatursatan got KICKED out of heaven and GOD Kingdom because he wanted to be the GOd of this planet !

To say they could sin is to suggest that we cannot sin and that is to take away our freedom of choice. There are many people that have taken the name of Jesus and believed, that have sense commited the most awful crimes, showing that we still have our freedom of choice. If we could not sin then why are we tempted by Satan?
Adam was created in God's own image, Jesus also has the image of God, He is the son of God.
Adam was given the sinless nature when he was created, when he disobeyed God he recieved the sinful nature, which we inherited. We still have our sinful nature that is why Paul said "I die daily". Through faith we partake of His (God"s) divine nature. Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"

When Adam chose Eve over God he broke the first commanment which was not written down yet, but the law came to be when the sin took place.

Isiah 14:12-14 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations. for thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit aslo upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high." Satan put himself equal with God and put himself before God also breaking the first commandment. We don't know how Satan fell from heaven this is the mystery of iniquity. There was never sin before Satan rebelled there was no one to tempt him. I imagine that he was confused at first but selfishiness took over him, selfishiness is the heart of sin.

 

[B-A-C]

This is talking about Mary and the birth of our LORD JESUS !
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Actually not Mary specifically, but Israel, the twelve stars on her head are the 12 tribes.