Not under the Law?
- Thread starter brakelite
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B-A-C
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Just the same thing I've been trying say all along.
I don't believe we HAVE to follow all of the commandments. In fact I believe we can't even if we wanted to.
Sin isn't something we should want to do. I believe as Christians that mature, we should sin less and less.
But Jesus told us, if we loved him. We would follow his commandments. So it's my opinion, that we should try best as we can.
I believe confession and repentance are tools that help us do this. I believe that if we are truly led by the Spirit, and truly are crucified with Christ,
that we should have a change of heart towards sin. It should be disgusting to us. We shouldn't want to do it at all.
But I believe that even when we reach that point where we hate sin. We still do it sometimes. Even when we don't want to.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25a Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! ...
I believe by sinning less and less, and hating sin, we are overcoming the world.
Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
The good news... Jesus keeps on forgiving us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Job 16:19 "Even now, behold, my witness is in heaven, And my advocate is on high.
1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
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Listen our spirit once Born of GOD seed cannot sin ! But our flesh can and does ? We sin some times in our flesh mind without even knowing it ? We sin by preaching or saying things because we have the wrong understanding of it ? We dwell in imperfect bodies and have a imperfect flesh mind ! But if we truly are Born -again we going to want to please GOd and hate sin ! We try hard not to sin ! Love is Not a less law than the 10 commanments ! It a higher calling ! It a eternal law! You know one time a man tried to kill me twice! He had a gun on me ! a 357 and had tried over and over to pull the trigger ! God spoke to me in my mind! and said i could care the gun from Him and kill HIM ! I said LORd . i do not want to kill anyone ! There more to the story ! But a little time later i saw on the front page . He had killed another man for fun ! I thought i could have saved that man life and maybe others He might have killed ? I always been confused about that ? Should i have saved that man life and maybe others no one knows about ? I honestly do not know that answer ? Not even sure why i typed it here ? Lol
Well guys i learned this from a guy this week. Simply put : LAW=SIN (1JOHN 3:4, ROM7:7, ROM 3:20)
SAVIOR
CROSS
GOSPEL
CHURCH
BIBLE
GOD
IF THIS DOESNT MAKE IT EASY FOR U GUYS IDK WHAT WILL. SEE THIS IS WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IS IMPORTANT. FOLLOW WITH ME CROSSING OF THE COLUMN TO THE TOP RIGHT AS WE GO DOWN!
LAW OR TEN COMANDMENTS LETS US KNOW WHAT SIN IS OR ITS THE DEFINITION OF SIN! WITHOUT THE LAW WE WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT IS OFFENSIVE TO OUR GOD! NOW CROSS OF SIN! IF U DONT BELIEVE IN THE KEEPING OF THE LAW!
IF U DONT BELIEVE THERE IS A LAW THEN WE WONT OR DONT NEED A SAVIOR TO RUN TO RIGHT? WHY WOULD WE NEED TO CONFESS ANYTHING WE ARE HOLY? NOW CROSS OF SAVIOR
IF WE DONT NEED A SAVIOR WHAT GOOD IS THE CROSS? CROSS IS MEANINGLESS! NOW X OUT THE CROSS
WITHOUT THE CROSS WHY DO WE NEED A GOSPEL? WHAT GOOD NEWS? WE ARE FORGIVEN SOMEHOW RIGHT? WRONG! NOW CROSS OF THE GOSPEL
WITHOUT THE GOSPEL WHY WOULD WE NEED A CHURCH OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE TELLING THE WORLD THE GOSPEL? CROSS OF CHURCH
WITHOUT A CHURCH OR DIRECTION WHY WOULD WE NEED THE BIBLE? THE BIBLE WILL ONLY BE A STORY BOOK OF THIS THING THAT SUPPOSEDLY MADE THIS WORLD. THERE WOULD BE NO POWER OR APPLICATION TO OUR LIVES! I WOULD BELIEVE EVOLUTION, It would so sound better. NOW CROSS OF BIBLE
WITHOUT THE BIBLE WHO IS GOD? MAKES NO SENSE AS TO WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL IS! CROSS GOD OFF
PLEASE UNDERSTANG ALL OF THIS GOES HAND IN HAND! PLEASE WRITE THIS DOWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND STUDY IT OR PRAY ABOUT IT! THIS IS WHAT SATAN WANTS YOU GUYS TO DO IS THROW OUT THE LAW OF GOD! PLEASE CONSIDER THIS! GOD LOVES US TOO MUCH AND REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE FOR OUR GOOD AND ARE NOT GRIEVOUS 1JOHN! GOD BLESS YOU ALL
SAVIOR
CROSS
GOSPEL
CHURCH
BIBLE
GOD
IF THIS DOESNT MAKE IT EASY FOR U GUYS IDK WHAT WILL. SEE THIS IS WHY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IS IMPORTANT. FOLLOW WITH ME CROSSING OF THE COLUMN TO THE TOP RIGHT AS WE GO DOWN!
LAW OR TEN COMANDMENTS LETS US KNOW WHAT SIN IS OR ITS THE DEFINITION OF SIN! WITHOUT THE LAW WE WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT IS OFFENSIVE TO OUR GOD! NOW CROSS OF SIN! IF U DONT BELIEVE IN THE KEEPING OF THE LAW!
IF U DONT BELIEVE THERE IS A LAW THEN WE WONT OR DONT NEED A SAVIOR TO RUN TO RIGHT? WHY WOULD WE NEED TO CONFESS ANYTHING WE ARE HOLY? NOW CROSS OF SAVIOR
IF WE DONT NEED A SAVIOR WHAT GOOD IS THE CROSS? CROSS IS MEANINGLESS! NOW X OUT THE CROSS
WITHOUT THE CROSS WHY DO WE NEED A GOSPEL? WHAT GOOD NEWS? WE ARE FORGIVEN SOMEHOW RIGHT? WRONG! NOW CROSS OF THE GOSPEL
WITHOUT THE GOSPEL WHY WOULD WE NEED A CHURCH OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE TELLING THE WORLD THE GOSPEL? CROSS OF CHURCH
WITHOUT A CHURCH OR DIRECTION WHY WOULD WE NEED THE BIBLE? THE BIBLE WILL ONLY BE A STORY BOOK OF THIS THING THAT SUPPOSEDLY MADE THIS WORLD. THERE WOULD BE NO POWER OR APPLICATION TO OUR LIVES! I WOULD BELIEVE EVOLUTION, It would so sound better. NOW CROSS OF BIBLE
WITHOUT THE BIBLE WHO IS GOD? MAKES NO SENSE AS TO WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL IS! CROSS GOD OFF
PLEASE UNDERSTANG ALL OF THIS GOES HAND IN HAND! PLEASE WRITE THIS DOWN ON A PIECE OF PAPER AND STUDY IT OR PRAY ABOUT IT! THIS IS WHAT SATAN WANTS YOU GUYS TO DO IS THROW OUT THE LAW OF GOD! PLEASE CONSIDER THIS! GOD LOVES US TOO MUCH AND REMEMBER HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE FOR OUR GOOD AND ARE NOT GRIEVOUS 1JOHN! GOD BLESS YOU ALL
DHC
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Read your post bgsda, I do understand why you believe in the ten commandments.
What I would like to know bgsda is what you would call the following statement?
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
clark thompson
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God's law was given to and thru Moses so they are the same and we are not bond by them but should live by the law Jesus did not do awy with. We should still not sleep with our brother's wife "not a ten commandment" and we are not to offer sacrifices because Jesus was the sacrifice we can now eat pork because God told Peter He made nothing unclean. There are law outside the ten that we should still live by though is my point.
jeremiah1five
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I agree.
The Law of God are the Commands of God, and the Commands of God are Law.
It matters not whether written or spoken. They are the Word(s) of God and He is the One responsible for where He sends it and its survival. It's not man's responsibility to "make sure" God's Word endures. It belongs to God.
I would like to say a couple of things here if I may,
It's a matter of putting the cart before the horse. Trying to keep the law to be saved is taking the wrong road and it leads to distruction because, the flesh cannot keep the law therefore another road must be taken. I suggest that keeping the law becomes the fruit of the Holy Spirit or Christ working in us. Is it not His work to perfect us through faith and we only surrender all to Him? Isn't that what the new conenant really is?
Also, sin in it's true meaning is seperation from God which manifests itself in disobedience to the law so the correct approach is to reastablish your relationship with Christ. If you break one law your are guilty of breaking them all, it is because the seperation has already taken place and as I said seperation from God is sin and the sting of death. God is life and all that is of God is life so to seperate from God or that which is life is to die, does that make sense? Righteousness is of God so it is life, sin is not of God so it is death. If what I am saying is true then to turn our backs on God is the only way to lose salvation because God through Christ has saved all men by reconciling them to Himself. God has saved all, to lose salvation is to rebel against Him, or through unbelief, and those that rebel or don't believe are choosing to seperate from that which is life, "GOD"
Also I would like to say that the the law of God and the law of Moses each has it's own purpose. The law of God (ten commandments) was to teach us how to identify sin or seperation from God. The law of Moses or the laws that were written down by Moses was to teach how God was going to deal with the sin problem by the life and ministry of Christ.
It's a matter of putting the cart before the horse. Trying to keep the law to be saved is taking the wrong road and it leads to distruction because, the flesh cannot keep the law therefore another road must be taken. I suggest that keeping the law becomes the fruit of the Holy Spirit or Christ working in us. Is it not His work to perfect us through faith and we only surrender all to Him? Isn't that what the new conenant really is?
Also, sin in it's true meaning is seperation from God which manifests itself in disobedience to the law so the correct approach is to reastablish your relationship with Christ. If you break one law your are guilty of breaking them all, it is because the seperation has already taken place and as I said seperation from God is sin and the sting of death. God is life and all that is of God is life so to seperate from God or that which is life is to die, does that make sense? Righteousness is of God so it is life, sin is not of God so it is death. If what I am saying is true then to turn our backs on God is the only way to lose salvation because God through Christ has saved all men by reconciling them to Himself. God has saved all, to lose salvation is to rebel against Him, or through unbelief, and those that rebel or don't believe are choosing to seperate from that which is life, "GOD"
Also I would like to say that the the law of God and the law of Moses each has it's own purpose. The law of God (ten commandments) was to teach us how to identify sin or seperation from God. The law of Moses or the laws that were written down by Moses was to teach how God was going to deal with the sin problem by the life and ministry of Christ.
Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
B-A-C
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The paradox of the law. Is it really a paradox?
There are two halves. Preaching only one half is not preaching the truth. So it is with the law.
On one hand we have many verses like this.
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
People take these verses and run with them, they think that's the end of the subject. They say the law doesn't apply at all anymore.
On the other hand we have verses like this...
Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Matt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Acts 21:24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
So how do we resolve these seeming differences?
If we aren't saved by keeping the law (commandments), then why are we told in so many verses that we should still try to keep them?
1. We are sanctified this way. Matt 5:10; Rom 6:16;
2. We grow closer to God this way. John 14:21; 1 John 2:3-4
3. We become more like Christ this way.
4. We mature spiritually this way.
5. We become salt and light to the world this way.
6. We draw others to God by our testimony of overcoming sin (not by our power). John 12:32;
7. We help the faith of new believers. 1 Cor 8:7-11;
8. We don't allow non-believers to call us hypocrites and blaspheme the name of God. Jas 2:7-9;
9. This is how we love our neighbors, by following the commandments. Matt 22:39; Mark 12:33; Rom 13:9;
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Those two verses aren't saying we can't sin, they are saying we can. Even though we are under grace.
Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
1 Pet 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
These verses say we can still serve the flesh, we can still do evil. God doesn't take it into account since Jesus paid for it. But this verse still calls it sin.
1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
Even though we are under grace, and grace continues to cover us when we make mistakes, we aren't supposed to use this grace (freedom) as an excuse to keep on sinning.
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So how do we know if we are lead by the Spirit? The Spirit is a change of heart towards sin.
If you are lead by the Spirit, you no longer want to sin.
John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Before you became a believer you didn't care if you sinned. Now, you should care.
There are two halves. Preaching only one half is not preaching the truth. So it is with the law.
On one hand we have many verses like this.
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
People take these verses and run with them, they think that's the end of the subject. They say the law doesn't apply at all anymore.
On the other hand we have verses like this...
Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Matt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Acts 21:24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
So how do we resolve these seeming differences?
If we aren't saved by keeping the law (commandments), then why are we told in so many verses that we should still try to keep them?
1. We are sanctified this way. Matt 5:10; Rom 6:16;
2. We grow closer to God this way. John 14:21; 1 John 2:3-4
3. We become more like Christ this way.
4. We mature spiritually this way.
5. We become salt and light to the world this way.
6. We draw others to God by our testimony of overcoming sin (not by our power). John 12:32;
7. We help the faith of new believers. 1 Cor 8:7-11;
8. We don't allow non-believers to call us hypocrites and blaspheme the name of God. Jas 2:7-9;
9. This is how we love our neighbors, by following the commandments. Matt 22:39; Mark 12:33; Rom 13:9;
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Those two verses aren't saying we can't sin, they are saying we can. Even though we are under grace.
Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
1 Pet 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
These verses say we can still serve the flesh, we can still do evil. God doesn't take it into account since Jesus paid for it. But this verse still calls it sin.
1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
Even though we are under grace, and grace continues to cover us when we make mistakes, we aren't supposed to use this grace (freedom) as an excuse to keep on sinning.
Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So how do we know if we are lead by the Spirit? The Spirit is a change of heart towards sin.
If you are lead by the Spirit, you no longer want to sin.
John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Before you became a believer you didn't care if you sinned. Now, you should care.
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"Keeping the commandments of God", is very often quoted without consideration of what it means.
So, what is keeping the commandments?
James 2:10 explains it simply. It means keeping them perfectly. Just one offense makes you guilty of all the law.
Yet, those who preach the keeping of God's commandments are clearly guilty of all the law.
Those who preach the law suggest some ambiguous level of obedience is required. And when questioned they have no scripture to support their belief.
So we see that whilst they preach the keeping of the 10 commandments, they themselves are not keeping them.
Those preaching the law are unbelievers who deny God by their works, Tit 1:16.
Scriptures offer many warnings against such false gospels of works of the law, within the church.
"A little leaven ( works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump", Gal 5:9
"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened", 1Cor 5:7
So, what is keeping the commandments?
James 2:10 explains it simply. It means keeping them perfectly. Just one offense makes you guilty of all the law.
Yet, those who preach the keeping of God's commandments are clearly guilty of all the law.
Those who preach the law suggest some ambiguous level of obedience is required. And when questioned they have no scripture to support their belief.
So we see that whilst they preach the keeping of the 10 commandments, they themselves are not keeping them.
Those preaching the law are unbelievers who deny God by their works, Tit 1:16.
Scriptures offer many warnings against such false gospels of works of the law, within the church.
"A little leaven ( works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump", Gal 5:9
"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened", 1Cor 5:7
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
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Yes we are, none of us keeps them 100%. None is righteous, not one.
So, you have never told the truth? (not false witness?)
You have never honored your father or mother? Never? Not one time? Not even on mother's day or her birthday? (honor your father and mother)
Every single one of your relationships with women have been adultery? Really? (don't commit adultery)
You have stolen everything you have? (do not steal)
If not, well then you are guilty of keeping the commandments. At least some of them, some of the time.
There is a difference between depending upon obeying the law for salvation, and obeying the law for sanctification.
You quote Titus 1:16 above, do you realize how they deny God by their works? It continues on into Titus chapter 2. The first 10 verses go like this.
Tit 2:2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
Tit 2:4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
Tit 2:6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
Tit 2:7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
Tit 2:8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
Tit 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. ...........(not stealing)
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tit 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Is Galations 5:9 talking obeying the commandments, or is it talking about depending upon them for salvation? Five verses earlier it says...
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
"None is righteous" speaks of mankind without Christ. It does not refer to Christians, as in Christ our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Christians are righteous in Christ, so why would you then suggest they are unrighteous based on their failings in lifestyle/behavior? What you speak of sounds like righteousness by works of the law.
Where do you get the idea that obeying the law sanctifies us?
Sanctification came to Christians by Christ's one offering. What has works of the law got to do with sanctifying us when Christ's sacrifice already did this?
Heb 10:10
" we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all."
You misunderstand Titus in your way of seeing everything in only physical terms.
For example, "godliness" which is traditionally seen as speaking of lifestyle/behavior.
This is incorrect.
But, what does scripture say godliness is?
1Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1Tim 4:8
"but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.
To be godly is to believe in Jesus.
We also differ in understanding of "worldly desires".
I see this speaking of rebellion against God by wanting to establish your own righteousness instead of submitting to God's righteousness.
And how do we live righteously?
We do one of the following:
1: Perfectly keeping the law of righteousness.
OR
2: Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
As for Gal 5:9, it speaks of how even a little bit of the law can corrupt believers.
Take your own doctrine for example. You preach a contradiction when you say we're saved by grace but if you slip up once too often then that is "habitual", "willful" sin which proves such persons to be unsaved. Here you seem to have added a requirement of some unknown level of works of the law, to mix with grace. This doctrine you preach is not supported in scripture. Rom 11:6 tells us you cannot mix grace and works of the law. That is being lukewarm, Rev 3:16.
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jeremiah1five
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Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses.
The Law is three parts. The part of the law believers in the Church Age Paul says we are not under is the Ceremonial Law. There is no more slaying of a lamb sacrifice for the sin of God's elect.
Through the Holy Spirit we are under the Moral and Social Law.
The Law is three parts. The part of the law believers in the Church Age Paul says we are not under is the Ceremonial Law. There is no more slaying of a lamb sacrifice for the sin of God's elect.
Through the Holy Spirit we are under the Moral and Social Law.
B-A-C
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Hmmm... well ok, then, there are some rues for us to follow?
What determines these rules if not God? Is man moral? Is the laws of society higher than God's laws?
In some society's child pornography is acceptable. In some society's murder is acceptable. (do you consider abortion murder?) In some society's homosexuality is acceptable.
In some society's killing someone just because of their religion is acceptable. Is man's social and moral laws higher than God's laws?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also the Gentiles,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentiles.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
Notice it doesn't say they "will live without the law". It says they will perish.
Rom 2:12
(GW) Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.
(NLT) When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
How many times do you see the word Gentile(s) in the 11 verses above?
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
The verse above doesn't say "some of" or "part of". 1 Tim 1:3 tells us Timothy was in Ephesus. Were the Ephesians Jews or Gentiles?
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Were the Galations Jews or Gentiles?
1 Thes 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
1 Thes 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
1 Thes 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1 Thes 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
1 Thes 4:5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
Notice it says for your sanctification, not for your salvation. Were the Thessalonians Jews or Gentiles?
Col 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
Was having idols against Jewish law?
Col 3:6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
Col 3:7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Was slander or bearing false witness against Jewish law?
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
Was lying against Jewish law?
Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
Col 3:14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Was loving your neighbor part of the Jewish law?
Col 3:20 Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord.
How about honoring your father and mother?
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Were the Colossians Jews or Gentiles?
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jeremiah1five
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Yes, there are.
No, it is God.
Yes.
No.
Yes. Abortion is murder. Many abortions is genocide
No.
B-A-C
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There is no magic number. There is no verse that says "43". If you only sin 42 times today you are good to go.
I think if we are looking at this from the point of view "what is the most sin I can do today and get away with it?" then that reveals where our heart is.
For John maybe it's 503 times.
For Paul maybe it's 621 times.
For George maybe it's 842 times.
For Ringo maybe it's 12,341 times.
As I have stated before, it's not the number of times we sin that's important. It's our heart after we sin.
Do we confess our sin? Do we admit our sin? Do we repent of our sin? Do we ask for forgiveness for our sin?
Or do we pretend like it never happened? Do we say it isn't even sin anymore? Have we sinned so many times we don't even care anymore?
Somewhere between the two sentences above is a number. I don't know what that number is. It's probably different for everyone. But God knows what it is.
B-A-C
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Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
So all of the law is in effect, at least until heaven and earth pass away. Every single point to the tiniest letter.
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
If we break even one tiniest bit of the commandments, we are just as guilty as if we broke all of them.
Even so, how many of us can say, we have only sinned once? twice? a dozen times? a hundred times?
Matt 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Matt 11:30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
The verses above don't say there isn't any burden at all. They say it's a light burden.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
John says the commandments are not burdensome.
Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
So then why be a slave to the commandments again if we are set free?
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Because it's our heart and spirit that matter, not the letter of the law.
It's a good thing, because none of us can keep the letter of the law. But we can keep some of them some of the time. Does being free from the yoke of the law mean the commandments don't apply at all anymore? Or does being free from the yoke of the law mean, if we don't follow it to the tiniest letter all of the time there is grace and forgiveness?
If they don't apply at all anymore, why Does Jesus (and John) say...
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
So all of the law is in effect, at least until heaven and earth pass away. Every single point to the tiniest letter.
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
If we break even one tiniest bit of the commandments, we are just as guilty as if we broke all of them.
Even so, how many of us can say, we have only sinned once? twice? a dozen times? a hundred times?
Matt 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Matt 11:30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
The verses above don't say there isn't any burden at all. They say it's a light burden.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
John says the commandments are not burdensome.
Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
So then why be a slave to the commandments again if we are set free?
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Because it's our heart and spirit that matter, not the letter of the law.
It's a good thing, because none of us can keep the letter of the law. But we can keep some of them some of the time. Does being free from the yoke of the law mean the commandments don't apply at all anymore? Or does being free from the yoke of the law mean, if we don't follow it to the tiniest letter all of the time there is grace and forgiveness?
If they don't apply at all anymore, why Does Jesus (and John) say...
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Hi B-A-C,
You claim that God's forgiveness has no limits.
But, you also claim that if we slip up by doing wrong behavior once too often, then we're lost.
You claim that we're saved by grace.
But, you also claim that it's the doers of the law that are justified.
Do you not see the contradictions here?
And why is it that you have no scripture to support your claim that God offers a different limit of forgiveness to each of us. There must be scripture to support such a claim as it's important that we know what His limits are for each individual as your doctrines suggests that our behavior/lifestyle determines whether we are saved or not.
You gave the examples below:
For John maybe it's 503 times.
For Paul maybe it's 621 times.
For George maybe it's 842 times.
For Ringo maybe it's 12,341 times.
These examples are far below your earlier example that God forgives 7 trillion x 7 trillion times.
I would suggest that the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was truly blessed above the likes of us who live on, ever doubtful of our salvation as we do not know what our individual limits are that would exceed God's unlimited forgiveness.
Hearing the gospel you preach, I'd say the great majority would consider death bed salvation to be the best time to receive Jesus. It offers certainty of salvation compared to the ambiguity of having to go through life not knowing what limit of forgiveness God offers each individual and whether you slipped up once too often beyond your unknown forgiveness quota.
You claim that God's forgiveness has no limits.
But, you also claim that if we slip up by doing wrong behavior once too often, then we're lost.
You claim that we're saved by grace.
But, you also claim that it's the doers of the law that are justified.
Do you not see the contradictions here?
And why is it that you have no scripture to support your claim that God offers a different limit of forgiveness to each of us. There must be scripture to support such a claim as it's important that we know what His limits are for each individual as your doctrines suggests that our behavior/lifestyle determines whether we are saved or not.
You gave the examples below:
For John maybe it's 503 times.
For Paul maybe it's 621 times.
For George maybe it's 842 times.
For Ringo maybe it's 12,341 times.
These examples are far below your earlier example that God forgives 7 trillion x 7 trillion times.
I would suggest that the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was truly blessed above the likes of us who live on, ever doubtful of our salvation as we do not know what our individual limits are that would exceed God's unlimited forgiveness.
Hearing the gospel you preach, I'd say the great majority would consider death bed salvation to be the best time to receive Jesus. It offers certainty of salvation compared to the ambiguity of having to go through life not knowing what limit of forgiveness God offers each individual and whether you slipped up once too often beyond your unknown forgiveness quota.
