An Argument Againts Once Saved Always Saved

[eldon]

I don't associate myself with any doctrines, i read everything i can get my hands on.

Regarding the Holy Spirit leaving a Christian.
This is entirely Biblical but the problem is we have a difficult time separating Christ in you, from the Holy Spirit in you.
Two different things.
The Holy Spirit speaks to your heart, Christ to your conscience.
I have heard other people say "God is speaking to my spirit, or something in my spirit, etc"
But when the Lord gives most everyone I know scripture to read, they normally say the Lord spoke to me.

Do a Bible word search for "the Spirit of God left Him"
It is no different today, however, Christ never leaves you, as far as i know, everyone on the planet is under conviction
Its also possible to be a Christian and still under the influence of tormenting spirits and other stuff.

My Testimony is the same as another persons who I am close friends with; where the other weird stuff comes in, like the repentance angel Uriel,
--For whatever reason, Christians fall asleep, however when God woke me up, it was not by God speaking to me. it was like a spiritual blinder was removed and i became more aware of my sins and lifestyle.
I have not tried praying to angels, some say it works, you might try contacting one, let me know, i don't really have any interest in trying to do that just to see what would happen.
I have received testimony that you can tell angels to take the life of your enemies, and it works. i wouldn't do it.


UNSEALED!!
Here's the story that happened to me.
If you entertain sinful thoughts, if instead of satan bringing them to mind, but rather a demon or whatever inserting them into your head, it gives them a legal right to enter.
in my case, i rebuked the thoughts, and then the evil spirit, and it left me (it never spoke to me, nor got "in")

2 days later someone called me at 2 am in the morning... wondering how these things got in him. I sort of "Just knew what happened" the moment he called.
He said something to the effect of God told him to call me, and the demons told him if i came over to his house there would be two big men waiting for me. so the demons knew who i was, and this did not surprise me.

in any case, the Holy Spirit within you will seal off the spirit realm unless God is allowing these kinds of thing to happen.
for instance, an unsaved, 12 year old girl riding her horse into an area in the pacific northwest has an out of body experience and gets sucked into the (outerdarkness?) and comes back all messed up.
where is that in the Bible lol. but it happened.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't associate myself with any doctrines, i read everything i can get my hands on.

Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

I can find any opinion about anything on the internet. I can find books that support or oppose virtually every argument known to man.
Some of these opinions and arguments change from time to time.

We can believe in the words and wisdom of the world, or we can believe the Bible. If we don't believe the Bible is really the word of God, how do we go
about picking what we should believe in? Well many people in the world just choose to believe the things they like to hear. (Have their ears tickled)

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2 Tim 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Many people believe we can trust our own hearts to know what is right or wrong.
Jer 17:9 says the heart is desperately sick, deceitful and wicked above all other things. (Prov 28:26)

Other people we can trust a wise man to tell us what is wrong or right.
Psalms 118:8 says it's better to put our trust in God than in men.

Either God is true, or he is a liar. If he is a liar, what do we base anything on?
Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie.

You are free to believe any doctrine you want, there are many out there to choose from.
Matt 24:11; Matt 24:24; Mark 13:22; 2 Cor 11:13; Gal 2:4; 2 Pet 2:1; Rev 2:2
The Bible talks about these things also.

 

[revbrad]

eldon, you said "an unsaved, 12 year old girl riding her horse into an area in the pacific northwest has an out of body experience and gets sucked into the (outerdarkness?) and comes back all messed up.
where is that in the Bible lol. but it happened."

How do you know it happened? Were you there? Did you see it?

 

[Opal]

revbrad, I do not think eldon gave the whole story, so I would let that alone if I was you.

 

[eldon]

What is in the Bible (as interpreted by someone who is not a Christian) is about 1-2% of what is in the Spiritual realm as far as I can discern.

Someone I met on facebook recently was caught up into the 3rd Heaven and shown the "Book of Utterances" by the Angel of Wisdom.
From the way he described it it sounded like it was the biggest book in Heaven. between his Testemony and some other things, I've got all the information I need to declare it is an investigative judgement.

if you reject knowledge God will reject you. Hosea 4:6.
and i learned in the USMC not to let anything supprise me, and the worst case senario is the only one you can assume will happen.

so the way i go about things is, if the Spirit leads me to say hello to someone i met at a gas station, and he says he worked on UFO projects in the military.. he probably did.

 

[David777]

From the way he described it it sounded like it was the biggest book in Heaven. between his Testemony and some other things, I've got all the information I need to declare it is an investigative judgement.

Hello eldon.

I have seen that phrase "investigative judgement" before.

What do you mean by investigative judgement?

 

[eldon]

every thought word and deed weighed against the damage done to the offending party.

think court of law...

 

[Larry.]

My view of the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved”:
To begin, I propose that thinking of our lives in a point-to- point linear sense leads us to a flawed perception of what we truly are. We are eternal beings, and, as such, our lives do not begin at our conception. Rather, our life begins in the presence of our eternal Father:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. . .” – Jeremiah 1:5b.

As a consequence of our eternal nature, nor do our lives end upon our death. This is explained by Christ during His sermon on the Mount of Olives. When speaking of the unrighteous He said:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." – John 25:46

So, if we are to grasp what it means to “get saved”, and how this applies to our eternal position with God, we must first come to a right understanding of mankind’s eternal nature. This is easily explained by using just a few simple geometric principles.

Here we have a line segment, which best represents a human life as understood by the majority of the secular world:
(Point A, Birth) *----------Life-----------*(Point B, Death)
Next, we have a ray, which represents a human life as understood by the majority of the Christian Religious System:
(Point A, Conception) *------------Life-----* (Point B, Salvation) -------> (Eternal life with God in Heaven)
Finally, we have a true line, which represents a human life as described within the context of a comprehensive view of the Bible:
(Created by God) <-----------Life----------> (Eternal punishment, or Eternal communion with God in Heaven)

You will notice that I did not place a “point of salvation” in the final line. I did this because I do not prescribe to a single point of salvation, but rather I believe that our salvation is worked out, and we should be thankful for, every single moment of our waking lives. This view is well supported by Scripture:

“Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” - 1Thessalonians 5:16-18

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” – Philippians 2:12, 13

“that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” – Philippians 3:11-14

By this we can conclude that we are not “made perfect” instantaneously, but by a lifelong process of being progressively sanctified by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is, of course, only my own rather immature view of it; and is the best way that I have been able to describe salvation to those who have asked me these past 3 years since I accepted Christ. I hope that you found it somewhat helpful, and I would be well pleased with any response, whether in agreement or disagreement. God bless.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Here we have a line segment, which best represents a human life as understood by the majority of the secular world:
(Point A, Birth) *----------Life-----------*(Point B, Death)
Next, we have a ray, which represents a human life as understood by the majority of the Christian Religious System:
(Point A, Conception) *------------Life-----* (Point B, Salvation) -------> (Eternal life with God in Heaven)
Finally, we have a true line, which represents a human life as described within the context of a comprehensive view of the Bible:
(Created by God) <-----------Life----------> (Eternal punishment, or Eternal communion with God in Heaven)

Thanks Larry,that is a helpful way of seeing the Truth rather than that which appears true at any moment in time.
The purpose of a garden is to grow things and growth is not possible without some kind of passage of
events like time.Scripture seems to handle time more like the passing of events than our carnal (linear)
understanding can grasp.The stars,sun and planets were not around on the first day of creation so a day must be something more than
the earth spinning once on it's axis.The sun itself rotates on its axis once every 27 days at the equator and has a course in the milky way that takes 26000 years to complete.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Scripture always knew the earth was not flat but it does talk about the corners of the earth so there is an earth that we have not grasped and that is the earth created on the first day not when the planets and stars were formed.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof
What waters is Job referring to?
Could he be speaking of the 1st day waters?

Job 26:6 Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.
Who told Adam he was naked?
Why was Adam naked?

Maybe those seeming inconsistencies in scripture are to point us in a direction beyond our carnal understanding of time and the nature of reality.

 

[Eddy Fire]

once sown

Thanks Larry,that is a helpful way of seeing the Truth rather than that which appears true at any moment in time.
The purpose of a garden is to grow things and growth is not possible without some kind of passage of
events like time.Scripture seems to handle time more like the passing of events than our carnal (linear)
understanding can grasp.The stars,sun and planets were not around on the first day of creation so a day must be something more than
the earth spinning once on it's axis.The sun itself rotates on its axis once every 27 days at the equator and has a course in the milky way that takes 26000 years to complete.

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Scripture always knew the earth was not flat but it does talk about the corners of the earth so there is an earth that we have not grasped and that is the earth created on the first day not when the planets and stars were formed.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof
What waters is Job referring to?
Could he be speaking of the 1st day waters?

Job 26:6 Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered.
Who told Adam he was naked?
Why was Adam naked?

Maybe those seeming inconsistencies in scripture are to point us in a direction beyond our carnal understanding of time and the nature of reality.

being transformed by the renewing of your mind as the carnal mind
is enmity against God
as you know brother
is a definite
forget the maybe
as you know
so be it
as unto you
according
all things are made by Him
for Him
through Him
a fourth line would be truer
to truth
where He Who is
is

as for being saved
a sower sowed
Mathew
Mark
Luke
all tell the same
a sower went out to sow one day
some folk do and some folk do even more
or even less
so once sown
always sown is a more fitting way to say
as for gardeners
they might say
once germinated
sprouted
we tend to say today
regenerated
reborn
desiring like babes
the sincere milk of the word
babies need milk
seedlings need their milk too
birds get hungry
and then there are stones
and shallow
as in not so deep
but
the seedlings
sprout
some come to nought

Paul spoke of God being glorified
in all things both now and ever
mystery
love
and don't forget Job

the wisdom of God is foolishness to man
the wisdom of man is foolishness to God
but He knows that
we are a bit slow on the uptake
maybe too many weeds?
take no thought
eternity
time
a measure of faith
according
so be it
He is not willing that any should perish
add to all that
many false Christs and another gospel or two
a manifestation of an angel of light
once saved
or once conceived
as for Jesus
and cousin John

we only gather and reap in a field that has grown
run the race
endure
a crown awaits

 

[cranquar]

We are Eternal beings...the sound of that is very enduring. Thank you.

 

[RawScot]

Where is the arguments against once saved always saved on this thread? If God can change His mind it means that He is not omniscient, there is no substance filled, credible argument against it. Once saved always saved is True and from an omniscient God.

 

[SonSigns]

Hmm, where did you come up with some of this stuff. I never heard anyone praying to angels. The Bible strictly says to pray to the father (GOD) and we are to pray in Jesus's name. God would never allow one of his children to fall prey to a demon, without first a warning if that child is upright in righteousness. Even Jesus warned Peter that the devil wanted to sift him as wheat, but that he (Jesus) prayed that his faith would not fail him. Luke 22:30-32
I also must be missing something else, who is the repentance angel Uriel?

 

[SonSigns]

Here is my argument against the osas theology. ...well, every time I consider this issue my conclusion has to be the same: The essential matter is who saves us, ("beforethe foundation of the earth"). If it is His work it can't be "undone", of course.
A youth pastor explained to me once, characterizing congregations, that to many their salvation is like an insurance policy.
"Now I'm saved, and can continue on living as I wish...".
Nothing could be further from the Gospel.
True hunger for Christ's Life (the very work of the Holy Spirit), is the surest evidence of having been drawn to Christ. Any
thing else is just sad religion.
This Life is imparted (as we learn to forsake our "flesh") and not gained by will or works. See Rom 9:16.
So the question of whether one can lose his/her salvation is, really, a non-issue... The real matter is whether they have
ever really been brought into Life of Christ, through true salvation.

 

[RawScot]

Here is my argument against the osas theology. ...well, every time I consider this issue my conclusion has to be the same: The essential matter is who saves us, ("beforethe foundation of the earth"). If it is His work it can't be "undone", of course.
A youth pastor explained to me once, characterizing congregations, that to many their salvation is like an insurance policy.
"Now I'm saved, and can continue on living as I wish...".
Nothing could be further from the Gospel.
True hunger for Christ's Life (the very work of the Holy Spirit), is the surest evidence of having been drawn to Christ. Any
thing else is just sad religion.
This Life is imparted (as we learn to forsake our "flesh") and not gained by will or works. See Rom 9:16.
So the question of whether one can lose his/her salvation is, really, a non-issue... The real matter is whether they have
ever really been brought into Life of Christ, through true salvation.

Listen, I don't know where you are getting this but its wrong. Once saved always saved does NOT mean that we say something like "We are saved no problem" No-one knows the electand if he/she did then there would be no need to evangelize would they?

 

[RawScot]

Hmm, where did you come up with some of this stuff. I never heard anyone praying to angels. The Bible strictly says to pray to the father (GOD) and we are to pray in Jesus's name. God would never allow one of his children to fall prey to a demon, without first a warning if that child is upright in righteousness. Even Jesus warned Peter that the devil wanted to sift him as wheat, but that he (Jesus) prayed that his faith would not fail him. Luke 22:30-32
I also must be missing something else, who is the repentance angel Uriel?

Agreed , if it's not in the Holy Word of God, sling it. Everything else is but mere grass which will wither.

 

[SonSigns]

Listen, I don't know where you are getting this but its wrong. Once saved always saved does NOT mean that we say something like "We are saved no problem" No-one knows the electand if he/she did then there would be no need to evangelize would they?

Well... I got it from Brumley Baptist Church, a southern baptist church in Missouri. I was a member there for over 10 years. That is exactly what they taught or at the least thought. So, if that isn't right... explain it to me.

I believe if you are walking in Christ, you are secure.
For those who once were and are not now walking in Christ, we have our marching orders.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; c
onsidering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
The love of many will wax cold as iniquity abounds and they shall be offended, but he that endures unto the end, the sa
me shall be saved. (Mt 24).
We should be helping each other endure, not trying to figure out who is saved or not. One thing for sure: Our doctrines w
ill not save us! Only Christ will. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son hath not life. (1 John)
Satan divides and conquers and we help him.

 

[RawScot]

It's not about trying to figure out if one is saved or not. The bible tells us numerously what is required and that is Grace, you are saying that God can give Grace and then take it back, this would make Him the author of confusing to which he is not. Once saved always saved is what Jesus teaches. Surely you must know this being in a reformed church for over 10 years?

 

[B-A-C]

It's not about trying to figure out if one is saved or not. The bible tells us numerously what is required and that is Grace, you are saying that God can give Grace and then take it back, this would make Him the author of confusing to which he is not. Once saved always saved is what Jesus teaches. Surely you must know this being in a reformed church for over 10 years?

A good many of reformed (Protestant) churches preach against once saved/always saved.
In fact virtually all evangelical denominations, and practically all pentecostal/charismatic denominations.

 

[RawScot]

A good many of reformed (Protestant) churches preach against once saved/always saved.
In fact virtually all evangelical denominations, and practically all pentecostal/charismatic denominations.

Didn't know that, I am a member of the church of Scotland and never heard that. I was RC but now set free by Grace, will I tell you i am saved? No, but i will tell you that John 3:16 I do with all my being. I have still to see a comment that argues against the doctrine of once saved always saved, if you would be kind to give one I would appreciate it.
R