Is it faith alone??
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Boanerges
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If one wishes to maintain something then let them maintain their absolute trust in Jesus ability o save them. As long as we keep our eyes on Him one cannot falter. Since we are saved by grace through faith keeping faith in Christ should be our goal.
Since our works could be burned and we yet saved let us strive less with meaningless theological arguments and spend more time growing close to the One who loves us.
Since our works could be burned and we yet saved let us strive less with meaningless theological arguments and spend more time growing close to the One who loves us.
Is it meaningless to encourage and edify toward striving toward Christ, and allowing the fullness of what He truly accomplished to "bear much fruit" and take shape in our lives? Instead, many seem content in merely being forgiven, and the devotion pointed to God is either absent or short lived. How can we claim to honor and admire the longsufferings and faithfulness of the LORD if we, made in His image and saved after His example, will not do even as much to honor Him. How can we who "freely received" of the grace of God, being granted what we do not deserve, fail to honor the Lord according to all that we know Him worthy of; counting all the gifts of God as absolutely essential, trusting equaly in the Holy Spirit to make manifest the ministry of our salvation through us, as we do the blood of Christ to cleanse us from "all trespasses?"
i think this is on the right tracks but i disagree a bit about james talking about "false faith". James was talking about increasing faith towards God. and how works increase faith (perfect it James said) and thus by works we are justified because works can increase faith. that's why he mentioned abrahamn and Rahab who both did works to have assurance that God had accepted them. and in this sense they were justified by works because it increased their faith. from mere believing in God to trusting God....
simply believing that there is God isnt good as seeing God's favor for you like He did for abrahamn and Rahab when they believed had faith and acted. Only then it become evident to them that God had pleased in them. and this according to james made abrahamns faith Perfect. so that abraham wasnt mere believer in existence of God but learned new thing and learned to trust God etc.
Boanerges
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A good discussion can always be beneficial, but arguing never produces good fruit. We cannot honor God unless we submit our hearts to Him, but if that heart is submitted those things will come as naturally as a plant bearing fruit. It does not strive to bear fruit, but simple relies on the Vine to provide nourishment. All the striving in the world wont produce a single grape but lovingly letting the life of Heaven flow in you will bring fruit worthy of laying at His feet. It is nly in total submission to God (and thus a total lac of reliance on self) that one will find oneself able to walk in the Spirit. This is after all the biblical way to avoid the stench of human flesh.
B-A-C
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I mentioned 1Cor 12:9 in my original post. 1Cor is about gifts of the Holy Spirit given to various members of the body (church) and faith is one of those gifts.
But can you receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit if you aren't a believer? Do athiests, Muslims and Budhhists have the Holy Spirit?
The point is, you had to have faith to come to Christ first.
Gal 5 is talking about the faiths of the Spirit, not the gifts. Fruit is what we bear, it is what shows our maturity as a Christian (or person in general for that matter).
A gift is given to us. Fruit is what we give others.
Eph 6, yes we need the shield of faith, but it doesn't say this comes from God here either.
You believe that man comes to Christ on his own without the help of God?
So where do you believe our spiritual weapons come from? Do you think they come from satan, or the flesh???
Well bottom line I would rather give God all the glory and credit rather than reserving some of it for self and patting one's own back.
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B-A-C
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This has gotten twisted around somehow.
First our spiritual gifts do come from God. Faith is indeed a gift of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:9) but I believe the gifts given here, are gifts given to believers.
I don't believe you receive these gifts (1Cor 12) until you are a believer.
Our spiritual weapons, I suppose you could argue the Word is God, so in that sense it comes from him. Reading it is our responsibility.
The shield of faith, again I believe it's our faith.
I don't believe we can come to Christ without God (John 6:65). But I believe he controls our circumstances, not always our decisions. Especially when it comes to salvation.
Again, I believe it's OUR choice, and OUR faith that saves us.
I don't pat my back for his grace and his sacrifice, I merely accept them because I have to faith to do so.
Peace Seeker
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I know what you mean about the rest part. I am only guessing here, but it must be mentally and spiritually exhausting for someone to always be checking and double checking if he is still saved and in right-standing with God (by doing certain works or trying to live a certain way), lest the fear come that he has somehow been able to do something to jeopardize his standing with God. There is no rest in that kind of living, and none of that light yoke that Jesus promised us.
Our lives and/or lifestyles are not our rest, Jesus is our rest. He is the Gardener that prunes us and makes us grow, because we are in the vine. But a works-oriented faith has it the other way around : if you work, He will prune you and your works will allow God to make you grow.
You mentioned Col 1:23, but I like to include verses 22 & 23 as well, where we are told that we have been reconciled to God, brought into His own presence, and we are holy and blameless as we stand before him, without a single fault. He did this for us long before we ever did anything to "win Him over" by our own efforts - through works, etc. - as if we ever could!! And He said that without faith we can't please Him, not without works we can't please Him. If I can't believe that God saved and will keep me saved, then what kind of faith is that?
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Why it it at the mention of works people tend to think that one is legalist. Jesus did works. Was He a legalist? No. All throughtout the Scriptures showed faith by works. Lets take Noah in Gen.6. Noah found favor in God,s sight (grace). God told Noah build a boat. Noah did works by building the boat. Now lets take one of Abrahams faith by works when God told him to leave his home and sojourn somewhere else that he did not know Abraham did works by going. Also what happened with him and his son Issac. GOD told him to kill him Abraham obey and did works tikl God stopped him. The list goes on and on. Even God in John3:16 " God loved then He gave us His Son". Jesus said " by their fruits ( actions or works) you shall know them". How else can you know who someone really is exept by their works. God told us just 2 verses after Eph.2:8 in Eph.2:10 that we are here to do good works. We are going to be judged by our works Rev.22:12/Matt.16/27/ James. Bottom line is that true love will have you to obey. Obedience will show by your works
Also dont be deceived by others that tell you its all faith . That you dont have to do anything. Remember you can pray and ask God for food if He blesses you with food You still have to pick it up and put it in your mouth. You still have to DO something... works is not bad only when one is brainwashed that ones actions or works is legalism. We are blessed to have been giving life. Our actions or works should glorify God. Not that itll get us saved but that we love God. True love brings out obedience. True obedience will be seen by our actions or works. God bless
because if we say you must do works or you arent saved (God wont accept you, save you etc) then its legalism
Stickz
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jiggyfly:Originally Posted by B-A-C
I mentioned 1Cor 12:9 in my original post. 1Cor is about gifts of the Holy Spirit given to various members of the body (church) and faith is one of those gifts.
But can you receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit if you aren't a believer? Do athiests, Muslims and Budhhists have the Holy Spirit?
The point is, you had to have faith to come to Christ first.
You believe that man comes to Christ on his own without the help of God?
I don't see where anyone is saying that they came to Christ WITHOUT the help of God, but you and others in here seem to be saying that God did it all for you. Did you not have to make the decision to accept Christ? Was it forced on you somehow, or did you accept because it was God's predestined plan for you to accept Christ? and therefore not really your decision at all?
The way I see it, God offers and we accept ( or not ) and BOTH have a part in it. It's noble for all of you to humbly try to give God ALL the credit, but you either have to admit to some sort of John MacArthur type of predestination or you have to admit that YOU chose to accept Christ by your own free will, right? Is there any other way to look at it? If you made a decision to accept Christ then you also played a part in it, and some of us are just saying that we don't believe OUR PART in salvation stops right then. There are too many commandments given in the New Testament for me to believe that God doesn't expect me to continue obeying Him.
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Boanerges
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My friend, you are correct, faith will show forth works. Yet we cannot add to our salvation which was accomplished by Christ and received by faith- we need to follow Jesus, the works He did were not His own but like Christ we need to do only the Father's works which He pre-ordained for us. As far as a believer being judged- we will be judged in Christ our sin debt paid; our works will be judged to see if they are works of the flesh (self motivated) those are wood hay, stubble. If our works are found to be (again like Jesus) the Father's works done only in the power of the Spirit then they are acceptable (gold, silver, precious stones) and are fit to lay at the Master's feet. If our works be burned (consumed by God's judgement on the flesh) then we ourselves will be saved but will have missed a great opportunity to bless our Lord. Walk in the Spirit my friend (like Jesus in His earth walk) and you will find the balance here.
10 Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens,
“It has come at last—
salvation and power
and the Kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters
has been thrown down to earth—
the one who accuses them
before our God day and night.
11 And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb
and by their testimony.
And they did not love their lives so much
that they were afraid to die.
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!
But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
knowing that he has little time.”
Rev 12:10-12 (NLT)
Yes indeed the Blood of Christ is salvation and the beginning of our walk with God, it is also the power by which satan is overcome. It is only by the blood anyone has right standing with God, it is the blood and nothing else that has satisfied God and made Him to be at peace with everything. Satan recognizes this and is always trying to dismantle this assurance and make the shed blood of Christ something less because he knows it is the power with which he is overcome.
Many seem to mix or confuse sanctification with justification and that justification comes as a result of sanctification but the simple truth is they are two different things while it is true that we are being sanctified by HolySpirit it is also true that we have been justified by Christ's shed blood at the cross. Once we have been justified by God is there a need to be justified again? It is a ploy of the enemy to upset our assurance in the justifying power in the blood of Christ Jesus by making us think that when we fail or falter in our walk with the Lord and stall in our sanctification process that were are no longer justified. But this is simply a crafty lie against the truth of God's redemptive power and plan but by believing the lie we question our standing with God, cease in sanctification and leaving us as a spiritual cripple. Our assurance in the justifying power of Christ's blood must be settled in our hearts coming to a state of rest and peace with our position with God and giving credibility to the word of our testimony, satan's biggest fear realized, his state of being overcome.
“It has come at last—
salvation and power
and the Kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters
has been thrown down to earth—
the one who accuses them
before our God day and night.
11 And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb
and by their testimony.
And they did not love their lives so much
that they were afraid to die.
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!
But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
knowing that he has little time.”
Rev 12:10-12 (NLT)
Yes indeed the Blood of Christ is salvation and the beginning of our walk with God, it is also the power by which satan is overcome. It is only by the blood anyone has right standing with God, it is the blood and nothing else that has satisfied God and made Him to be at peace with everything. Satan recognizes this and is always trying to dismantle this assurance and make the shed blood of Christ something less because he knows it is the power with which he is overcome.
Many seem to mix or confuse sanctification with justification and that justification comes as a result of sanctification but the simple truth is they are two different things while it is true that we are being sanctified by HolySpirit it is also true that we have been justified by Christ's shed blood at the cross. Once we have been justified by God is there a need to be justified again? It is a ploy of the enemy to upset our assurance in the justifying power in the blood of Christ Jesus by making us think that when we fail or falter in our walk with the Lord and stall in our sanctification process that were are no longer justified. But this is simply a crafty lie against the truth of God's redemptive power and plan but by believing the lie we question our standing with God, cease in sanctification and leaving us as a spiritual cripple. Our assurance in the justifying power of Christ's blood must be settled in our hearts coming to a state of rest and peace with our position with God and giving credibility to the word of our testimony, satan's biggest fear realized, his state of being overcome.
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Boanereges: Not "strive?" Was Paul just an eccentric?
Col1:19-29 "Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."
Phil 1:20-30 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Phil Ch 3-4 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
1 Cor 9:16-27 "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
2 Tim 2:1-10 "No man that wars entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Or Peter?
2 Peter 1:1-15 "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;"
2 Peter 3:11- 18 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
or Christ?
Luke 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"
Luke 2:49 "And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"
John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
Matt 26:39 "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
It is to be done, striving "fervently," as one that "moved with fear," and great "boldness!"
Col1:19-29 "Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."
Phil 1:20-30 "Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Phil Ch 3-4 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
1 Cor 9:16-27 "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:"
2 Tim 2:1-10 "No man that wars entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Or Peter?
2 Peter 1:1-15 "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;"
2 Peter 3:11- 18 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
or Christ?
Luke 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"
Luke 2:49 "And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"
John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
Matt 26:39 "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
It is to be done, striving "fervently," as one that "moved with fear," and great "boldness!"
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Stickz
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Luke 6:46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:47 Whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and dig deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently on that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded on a rock.
Luke 6:49 But he that hears, and does not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house on the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Sounds like Dispensationalism to me.
No one could get into Heaven if it weren't for the Grace of God, but the fact that He made a way for some to keep from perishing is Grace enough. Salvation is something that no one deserves, but by the Grace of God there is a way. IF we obey God and keep His commandments we can be saved, but it's not because of the things that we do that we are saved, because without Jesus and the Grace of God the works would be impossible for us to do.
Faith has always worked the same way, and all the believers from the Bible understood and obeyed the Lord or else they were punished for their own good. If they resisted God, He refused them. He planted a good olive tree, but the wrong kind of olives are growing from the tree. We aren't born the way that we are, we become this way, AND it IS against nature.
Luke 6:47 Whoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and dig deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently on that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded on a rock.
Luke 6:49 But he that hears, and does not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house on the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Sounds like Dispensationalism to me.
No one could get into Heaven if it weren't for the Grace of God, but the fact that He made a way for some to keep from perishing is Grace enough. Salvation is something that no one deserves, but by the Grace of God there is a way. IF we obey God and keep His commandments we can be saved, but it's not because of the things that we do that we are saved, because without Jesus and the Grace of God the works would be impossible for us to do.
Faith has always worked the same way, and all the believers from the Bible understood and obeyed the Lord or else they were punished for their own good. If they resisted God, He refused them. He planted a good olive tree, but the wrong kind of olives are growing from the tree. We aren't born the way that we are, we become this way, AND it IS against nature.
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You believe that James was a dispensationalist?
Ahhh, you believe in salvation by works. Seems you believe salvation must be earned? Have you any scriptures to support your belief?
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