Is it faith alone??

[jari]

of course faith grows but Jesus is author and finisher of it.

weak faith fails.. strong doesn't.

but i believe it was faith in God that saved us.

and now part of our maturing is to grow in faith and knowledge of God and grace.
2Pe 3:18

our salvation is irreversible however because of the holy spirit given to us as seal. Eph 1:13

 

[SpiritLedEd]

You are a doer of the word when you are obeying God thus being a worker together with Him.

Grace does teach us, but it does so much more; it empowers us. "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good pleasure. (Php 2: 12-13)

SLE

 

[Stickz]

jiggyfly: In verse 23 I believe the faith that we are to continue in and the hope of the gospel that we are not to be moved away from is right there in the previous verses.

Yes, jiggy, I understand which faith we are not supposed to be moved away from but by WHO'S power or choice are we not to be moved away from it by?

jiggyfly: We were God's enemies and not by any doing of our own but rather by Christ's death we are made holy and blameless before God.

And when you say the above, it is as though you are assuming that I have devised a way other than through the cross of Christ to stand righteous before God. You and I just view the cross of Christ differently, jiggy.

jiggyfly: So the one who has moved away from the hope of the gospel is the one who is trying to gain/maintain right standing with God by their own good works and no longer depending, trusting, and resting in Christ's work @ the cross, so deceived, thinking that by following the ordinances and commandments of the old covenant with Israel they will be pleasing to God.

Deceived, huh? I suppose we shall see.

First of all, I do not believe in sacrificing cute little animals for my sins, which was part of the Old Covenant. Secondly, the following verses seem to say the very thing that you are speaking against:

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

BE CAREFUL to maintain good works? Interesting wording.

Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Are we not meant to try to please God?

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Seems to suggest--to me, anyway--that Christians ( those that are actually walking in the Spirit ) are meant to try to please God.

I Corinthians 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

I Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

According to the way that some of you seem to think NOT doing these things wouldn't please God either. I've heard some say that nothing we can do would ever please God, but I see scripture that completely contradicts this statement/belief. Unless what you are saying is that the fact that you do not do these things is entirely because of the grace of God and because of the cross of Christ? And if that IS the case ( then I am actually starting to understand the way you people think, praise God ) then are you also not taking any credit at all for your decision to believe in the cross of Christ in the way that you do? Are you saved by the grace of God in a predestination sort of way that had absolutely nothing at all to do with you? Meaning, the fact that you chose to believe the gospel was completely and wholly by the grace of God as well, and not really by any choice that you actually made yourself ( in which case, why would you expect any kind of reward at all for a decision that you didn't even really make for yourself? ) Or, do you take credit for having actually made the choice to believe Christ but that is the ONLY part of your salvation that you take ANY part in? Wouldn't that be a pretty important part of one's salvation? And if you do believe that you made the decision to believe in Christ then how can you say that your salvation has nothing at all to do with you?

I Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Who ought to walk and to please God? Are you telling me that this was already done for us, we just have to accept it?

II Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Who chose him to be a soldier? Please him? Entangleth himself? Again, here I see that it is left up to me to keep myself from being entangled with the affairs of this life. If Jesus done this on the cross I would think that this should be worded differently; More like, "No believer can be entangled with the affairs of this life because Jesus did all the work that would ever need to be done when he died on the cross etc ...." But it doesn't say that and it seems to be a commandment that I feel I'm meant to obey, but you ( and many others ) would call it works salvation, right? Well, I guess I believe in a works salvation then. Unless there is some way that someone can explain this to me in a way that truly makes sense that shows me how this was never meant to be something that I should will to do myself?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

jiggy, the New Testament is full of commandments and I don't understand how you or anyone else can feel that they were not written for you to keep. Forget the Old Testament, there are commandments that were given in the New Testament. Many of them are commandments that were also commandments in the Old Testament, but I find it interesting and can't ignore the fact that they were given again in the New Testament. What is a commandment? A rule to be observed, right? What happens when someone, believer or not, doesn't abide by these commandments? Actually, most of the commandments given in the New Testament are directed at believers because without first having a belief in Christ there is no point in worrying about the other things. But, many "Christians" today seem to completely overlook these commandments, or perhaps don't realize that they are commandments, or they know that they are commandments but for some reason ( which I'm trying diligently to understand ) don't feel that they are really meant to have to keep because that would lead to a works salvation and therefore mean that Jesus didn't accomplish everything on the cross, right? But, why continue to give commandments in the New Testament? I would also love for someone to show me the scripture where you get that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future? Well, I know that you can't show me the verses that say the words but show me the verses that allow you to reason your way to this conclusion, please?

Thanks B-A-C, now I don't have to include some of those same points in my post.

I Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We see from this verse that good works can also be beneficial to others around us.

I Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

I Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

I also find it interesting that many of you feel that you are saved now, you are forgiven now, you have been given grace now, but your righteousness will not show up and be perfected until after this life. Just an observation.

I Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

I Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

I Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[Peace Seeker]

If I had to do something to add to or maintain my salvation I would be in serious trouble. I dare not come to God and tell Him what I have done for Him but I do fall on His mercy and grace. He saves and is the One that is not only willing ("come to Me") but able ("I give you eternal life", etc.) to save. I don't keep me, He keeps me, just as the sheep in the sheepfold are kept by the Good Shepherd. The shepherd cares for and keeps the sheep because He loves them and it is His good pleasure to. He doesn't ask the sheep to help Him protect them from the predators. I may have what sounds to some like a simple faith, or even a false faith, but Jesus said that we must have the faith of a child. A child trusts and believes. I trust the Lord to bring me home and I take Him at His incontrovertible word that none will pluck me out of His hand. He gave me eternal life, not probationary eternal life.

Not trying to argue with anyone here that thinks differently, but believers should not judge each other about salvation or over-complicate the simplicity of the gospel message. When we trust God He will never forsake us, anything else but faith and trust is man-based.

Now, to be clear, I don't have an "easy-believism" stance, nor "get saved and then live however you want", but neither do I believe that God requires me to jump through a bunch of hoops to please Him. The Lord delights in His children, because of His goodness towards us, not ours toward Him. About faith and works :

John 6:28-29 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[jiggyfly]

I have to say, I struggle with this one sometimes. We definitely aren't saved by any works we do (Eph 2:9) but in a way faith itself is a work.
Our faith is tested often. Why?

1Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

2Cor 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
2Cor 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

Faith is often an action.
It's one thing to say "Well I believe in God and Jesus" and that's the end of it. Live however you want, do whatever you want.
It's another thing to live like you believe what you say you believe when you are tested.
Yes Jesus did his part and paid the price, but is that all there is to it? I believe we have to do our part as well.
It's fine and good for me to believe a light will come on when I flip the switch, but it doesn't do any good until I get up and turn it on.

Our salvation doesn't depend on our works, and it's a good thing, especially in my case because I have failed many times. But on the other hand should we not to live Holy lives at all?
If Jesus' death covers everything, why should we bother even trying or passing these tests?

James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
James 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

1Pet 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1Pet 5:9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
1Pet 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

After you have suffered and been tested... maybe it's not until then.

Heb 12:3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

1Pet 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pet 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
1Pet 4:19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26 talk about something called "the obedience of faith". Could this be what Abraham did? It seems that all of the hero's of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 had some act of faith associated with their righteousness.

But isn't faith a gift of HolySpirit? Hasn't God given everyone a measure of faith? I do agree that faith is a work but it is a work of God not of man.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes, jiggy, I understand which faith we are not supposed to be moved away from but by WHO'S power or choice are we not to be moved away from it by?



And when you say the above, it is as though you are assuming that I have devised a way other than through the cross of Christ to stand righteous before God. You and I just view the cross of Christ differently, jiggy.



Deceived, huh? I suppose we shall see.

First of all, I do not believe in sacrificing cute little animals for my sins, which was part of the Old Covenant. Secondly, the following verses seem to say the very thing that you are speaking against:

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

BE CAREFUL to maintain good works? Interesting wording.

Titus 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Are we not meant to try to please God?

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Seems to suggest--to me, anyway--that Christians ( those that are actually walking in the Spirit ) are meant to try to please God.

I Corinthians 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

I Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

According to the way that some of you seem to think NOT doing these things wouldn't please God either. I've heard some say that nothing we can do would ever please God, but I see scripture that completely contradicts this statement/belief. Unless what you are saying is that the fact that you do not do these things is entirely because of the grace of God and because of the cross of Christ? And if that IS the case ( then I am actually starting to understand the way you people think, praise God ) then are you also not taking any credit at all for your decision to believe in the cross of Christ in the way that you do? Are you saved by the grace of God in a predestination sort of way that had absolutely nothing at all to do with you? Meaning, the fact that you chose to believe the gospel was completely and wholly by the grace of God as well, and not really by any choice that you actually made yourself ( in which case, why would you expect any kind of reward at all for a decision that you didn't even really make for yourself? ) Or, do you take credit for having actually made the choice to believe Christ but that is the ONLY part of your salvation that you take ANY part in? Wouldn't that be a pretty important part of one's salvation? And if you do believe that you made the decision to believe in Christ then how can you say that your salvation has nothing at all to do with you?

I Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Who ought to walk and to please God? Are you telling me that this was already done for us, we just have to accept it?

II Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Who chose him to be a soldier? Please him? Entangleth himself? Again, here I see that it is left up to me to keep myself from being entangled with the affairs of this life. If Jesus done this on the cross I would think that this should be worded differently; More like, "No believer can be entangled with the affairs of this life because Jesus did all the work that would ever need to be done when he died on the cross etc ...." But it doesn't say that and it seems to be a commandment that I feel I'm meant to obey, but you ( and many others ) would call it works salvation, right? Well, I guess I believe in a works salvation then. Unless there is some way that someone can explain this to me in a way that truly makes sense that shows me how this was never meant to be something that I should will to do myself?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

jiggy, the New Testament is full of commandments and I don't understand how you or anyone else can feel that they were not written for you to keep. Forget the Old Testament, there are commandments that were given in the New Testament. Many of them are commandments that were also commandments in the Old Testament, but I find it interesting and can't ignore the fact that they were given again in the New Testament. What is a commandment? A rule to be observed, right? What happens when someone, believer or not, doesn't abide by these commandments? Actually, most of the commandments given in the New Testament are directed at believers because without first having a belief in Christ there is no point in worrying about the other things. But, many "Christians" today seem to completely overlook these commandments, or perhaps don't realize that they are commandments, or they know that they are commandments but for some reason ( which I'm trying diligently to understand ) don't feel that they are really meant to have to keep because that would lead to a works salvation and therefore mean that Jesus didn't accomplish everything on the cross, right? But, why continue to give commandments in the New Testament? I would also love for someone to show me the scripture where you get that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future? Well, I know that you can't show me the verses that say the words but show me the verses that allow you to reason your way to this conclusion, please?

Thanks B-A-C, now I don't have to include some of those same points in my post.

I Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

We see from this verse that good works can also be beneficial to others around us.

I Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

I Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

I also find it interesting that many of you feel that you are saved now, you are forgiven now, you have been given grace now, but your righteousness will not show up and be perfected until after this life. Just an observation.

I Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

I Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

I Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Yes indeed we shall all see one day, and what a glorious day it will be for us all. I had hoped you would have shared your understanding of Col. 1:23 as well. I will wait for your response to verse 23 before addressing the other scriptures you posted. Prayin for you Stickz:bot:

 

[jiggyfly]

Good post PS, I like things simple too. Many seem to have strayed from the simplicity of Christ and have difficulty in trusting His work at the cross and yet they call it rest. :disagree:

 

[Michelle71]

There is no doubt that some fall into legalism and think they can do some good thing to enter into salvation. They work, and do all manner of things for the Lord with the mindset of "if I could only do enough, then He will forgive me for all
the wrongs things I've done". This type of things falls flat every time. There is nothing that can be paid, nothing that can be given that will buy our salvation.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So no man should boast says volumes. Salvation is by repenting of sin, and knowing full well that the forgiveness of sin only comes through Jesus' sacrifice. There is nothing else God is able to look upon except the righteousness of Jesus. For those who are redeemed, then, God sees Jesus' righteousness in us rather than our own self righteousness. God counts us worthy only because of Jesus. God gives us the faith to believe unto salvation, to believe and put trust in the fact that Jesus' sacrifice was enough.

When a person goes through that deep repentance unto salvation, then after they are told to be a living sacrifice unto the Lord. We become His workmanship.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Not because those good works are the vehicle for salvation, but because of salvation, because of being a new creation in Christ, we do those works. Those works are what keep us in the word, in prayer, by His enabling Spirit salvation is maintaned. If time is not set aside for bible reading, study, prayer, communion with God, then faith can wane dim, backsliding, falling away, and the very denial of salvation, of the sacrifice of Jesus can be denied. If the works are not pursued by His enabling Spirit, then spirtual muscles are not applied, and just like the physical body can become soft and flabby, so can the spirit life, which then that person falls prey to falling away.

Presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice does not mean a hyped up super spiritual in the mind only type of thing.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

What is the reason that we become a living sacrifice? Is it to only say "I have the Spirit of the living God dwelling in me. Good, I get to go to heaven". Which is true, but are we then expected to do something with our life for Christ.
The rest of Rom 12 talks about the gifts, offices bestowed upon the saints. This is an active duty that is spoken about. From being active in the body of Christ to how to treat your enemies. Dwelling in integrity and honesty. This is
not a couch potato faith, but an active faith. Rest comes when that activity, those works, when performed are then laid at the feet of the Lord. Knowing that it is then His responsibility for the result. Performing those works from the
understanding that it is not the reason for salvation, but in direct result of that salvation. Being Christ's hands and feet is not an inactive life, but an active one.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[lettheredeemed]

Speaking of Abraham's faith alone:

Roman's 4:1--25

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief: but was strong in faith, giuing glory to God:

21 And being fully persuaded, that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him:

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[lettheredeemed]

Faith Alone

Speaking of Abraham's faith alone:

Roman's 4:1--25

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief: but was strong in faith, giuing glory to God:

21 And being fully persuaded, that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him:

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[B-A-C]

But isn't faith a gift of HolySpirit? Hasn't God given everyone a measure of faith? I do agree that faith is a work but it is a work of God not of man.

A very good question.
Most take this from Eph 2:8

(KJV) Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(NLT) Eph 2:8 God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
(AMP) Eph 2:8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
(NASB) Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It says by his GRACE (certainly not OUR grace) we have been saved. (through YOUR faith) [semicolon] and this is the gift of God.
It says here, it's grace we receive from God, not faith. I believe the faith has to come from us.

You know... I don't find anywhere in my Bible that faith is a gift from God. I wonder if you have a scripture for this?
The one possible exception would be 1Cor 12:9, but if it's talking about the faith of salvation here, then all believers don't have it, because it is talking
about how different parts of the body have different gifts.

Now God's grace on the other hand...

Eph 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

2Cor 9:14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
2Cor 9:15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

I believe we can ask for more faith. (Luke 17:5-6)
and I believe some of us have more faith than others

Most of the time when Jesus talked about our faith.. he specifically said "your faith" is what made this happen.
(Matt 8:10; Matt 9:2; Matt 9:22; Matt 9:29; Matt 15:28; Matt 21:21; Mark 5:34; Mark 10:52; etc...)

It seems the thing he criticized the disciples most for.. was their lack of faith (as least in the beginning of their discipleship).
(Matt 8:26; Matt 14:31; Matt 16:8; Matt 17:20; Mark 4:40; Luke 8:25; Luke 18:8; etc...)

If there was no grace.. faith alone wouldn't be enough. But because there is grace, faith can save us.
(Luke 5:20; Luke 7:50; Rom 1:17; Rom 3:22-31; Rom 4:5-20 and 2Cor 5:7; Gal 2:16; etc...)

Acts 26:18 says we sanctified by faith.

So yes Grace comes from God, but I believe the faith has to come from us.
In fact if you think about it, I'm sure God has enough faith for the entire world to be saved, yet we know the entire world won't be saved. Why?
Because it depends upon what we believe, and he gives us the freedom to believe what we want to.

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. Where does the Bible say faith comes from?
Rom 10:17

 

[caprice09]

Sorry duplicate post...see below

 

[caprice09]

Slavation by Grace...but God is not Mocked

Yet again, no one is discounting salvation by grace. I certainly am not reverting back to the law and can certainly concede it is the work of God within you through His Holy Spirit to accomplish the things expected of you. But the idea of a momentary confession yielding eternal results is preposterous. Not limiting what God is capable of doing, but in that everything He does is with purpose and judgment. Nothing God gives you will take control of your will to submit and follow in it, all things by God are subject to how you would use them.

Look at it with the creation of Adam. The works of God's creation equates with Christ's works of salvation (the Son doing the works he has seen of the Father). Adam could not have earned or deserved what God gave Him, because he did not yet exist. But being made in His image and likeness by the Word and Breath of God, by which he was given dominion over all the works of God, and life besides (and the tree of life being made accessible to him), he was expected to obey in the same grace by which he accounted to have received these things of God. And what happened to this "son of God" when he refused the Word of God, he died!

For if all scripture is God-breathed, than all verses no matter how apparently contradictory, must be reconciled by the gospel of Christ! How many of the parables of Christ refer to works and yielding fruit? How many works did He assign his disciples? How many times did He warn against making a false pretense of religion thinking God owes you any blessing (warning the children of Abraham not to think their genealogy grantees their blessing of God, even as an example to us, called the children of God). How many times are prophecies fulfilled by actions of others? For if God promised it, what further work needs be done, however these prophecies are fulfilled by works (like of Abraham mentioned above, called the father of faith, or Christ Himself, by whom we are saved).</SPAN>

Romans 10 says salvation by confession, and a man believes unto righteousness but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…i.e. you are called to minister that others might believe also.</SPAN>

Romans 11 gives the picture of the olive tree and the Gentiles grafted in as the Jews are fallen off…and the warning that they have fallen to warn you to abide in the faith wherein you stand.</SPAN>

Romans 12 insists to “lay down your lives” after the example of Christ who said, “Greater love has no man than this…” Compare these to John 15 where Christ calls Himself the vine. How many commands and warnings can you count.</SPAN>

Romans 6-8 is the figure of Baptism dying unto self that the “new man” might be made manifest. How many commands and warning fall unto US to perform?</SPAN>

Revelations shows Christ critiquing the churches and warning them to DO various things otherwise they shall be judged or cast off!</SPAN>

What are the “fruits worthy of repentance?” What conditions did Christ give to be His disciple (both what must be done to be a disciple, and must be avoided else one “cannot be My disciple”)?</SPAN>

True faith MUST bear fruit! And our works are a direct reflection of our estimation of the seed sown in us, or our estimation of who Christ is and what He has done for us (“And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy FAITH hath saved thee; go in peace.” If we then count salvation as “a pearl of great price,” then we should do what is necessary to ensure it for ourselves! </SPAN>

 

[bgsda]

well we see throughout the Bible that real love causes all to obey.

 

[jari]

if by grace are we saved then what is there left to do?

if we are now saved.

otherwise you would have to say we are never saved by grace, like the bible says, but lost trying to find our salvation.

 

[David777]

[h=3]2 Timothy[/h]8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner,
but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death
and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[jari]

[h=3]2 Timothy[/h]8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner,
but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death
and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

amen scripture always points to what Jesus has done to us. and not to what we must do to obtain life etc. but if we arent looking to Jesus we are looking to ourselves and thus missing what God would give to us.
definetely we should try to grow but it's more about learning about God and not being better athlete. so to speak

 

[Michelle71]

A very good question.
Most take this from Eph 2:8

(KJV) Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(NLT) Eph 2:8 God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
(AMP) Eph 2:8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
(NASB) Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It says by his GRACE (certainly not OUR grace) we have been saved. (through YOUR faith) [semicolon] and this is the gift of God.
It says here, it's grace we receive from God, not faith. I believe the faith has to come from us.

You know... I don't find anywhere in my Bible that faith is a gift from God. I wonder if you have a scripture for this?
The one possible exception would be 1Cor 12:9, but if it's talking about the faith of salvation here, then all believers don't have it, because it is talking
about how different parts of the body have different gifts.

When faith wans thin, then this scripture seems to fit.

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Some people have had an experience in their own lifetime that has stripped away even the ability to believe, but when they have called on God to give them the faith, to help their unbelief, a flat miracle happened. He gave the faith when there wasn't any.

Here's another verse that has comforted me more times than one.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Would it be talking in circles to say that even in unbelief God can give that measure of belief if He is asked. Maybe it does take a certain faith to even ask while in that state, I don't know.

 

[Chad]

Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?
by Matt Slick

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase "faith alone" occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith "not by works" and "apart from works", etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".

• Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
• Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
• Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
• Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
• Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
• Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
• Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
• Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
• Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
• Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
• Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
• Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

 

[jiggyfly]

A very good question.
Most take this from Eph 2:8

(KJV) Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(NLT) Eph 2:8 God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
(AMP) Eph 2:8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
(NASB) Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It says by his GRACE (certainly not OUR grace) we have been saved. (through YOUR faith) [semicolon] and this is the gift of God.
It says here, it's grace we receive from God, not faith. I believe the faith has to come from us.

You know... I don't find anywhere in my Bible that faith is a gift from God. I wonder if you have a scripture for this?
The one possible exception would be 1Cor 12:9, but if it's talking about the faith of salvation here, then all believers don't have it, because it is talking
about how different parts of the body have different gifts.

Now God's grace on the other hand...

Eph 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

2Cor 9:14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
2Cor 9:15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

I believe we can ask for more faith. (Luke 17:5-6)
and I believe some of us have more faith than others

Most of the time when Jesus talked about our faith.. he specifically said "your faith" is what made this happen.
(Matt 8:10; Matt 9:2; Matt 9:22; Matt 9:29; Matt 15:28; Matt 21:21; Mark 5:34; Mark 10:52; etc...)

It seems the thing he criticized the disciples most for.. was their lack of faith (as least in the beginning of their discipleship).
(Matt 8:26; Matt 14:31; Matt 16:8; Matt 17:20; Mark 4:40; Luke 8:25; Luke 18:8; etc...)

If there was no grace.. faith alone wouldn't be enough. But because there is grace, faith can save us.
(Luke 5:20; Luke 7:50; Rom 1:17; Rom 3:22-31; Rom 4:5-20 and 2Cor 5:7; Gal 2:16; etc...)

Acts 26:18 says we sanctified by faith.

So yes Grace comes from God, but I believe the faith has to come from us.
In fact if you think about it, I'm sure God has enough faith for the entire world to be saved, yet we know the entire world won't be saved. Why?
Because it depends upon what we believe, and he gives us the freedom to believe what we want to.

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. Where does the Bible say faith comes from?
Rom 10:17

Here are a couple more scriptures to consider BAC.

The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.
1 Cor 12:9 (NLT)

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
Gal 5:22-23 (NLT)

13 Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.14 Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness.15 For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. 16 In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. 17 Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Eph 6:13-17 (NLT)

3 Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us.
Romans 12:3 (NLT)

According to these scriptures, faith is a fruit of HolySpirit, a spiritual gift, and a gift given to us by God. Do you disagree?