Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[Kit Carson]

You be the judge. You tell me.
Even as a child I knew right from wrong. Not that I always did right, it was much more fun to do wrong.

As an adult I knew right from wrong and knew the difference. I had heard of God, been to church, still did not know, pretty much just dismissed it for the most part.

The Holy Spirit got me. Yep that is who caught me. I had been invited to another church, had been a few times, still I was distant. Ok, cool. But what is all the nonsense about .

It is hard to explain, but the Holy Spirit simply convicted me of my sin, and made me wish to be a good person.

It is as simple as that. In my case at least.

So what led to that time? Was it my free will to go to that church at that time. Yes. Did God have much to do with this. Yes.

I dunno, glad he did though . Kit

 

[rojoloco]

So what led to that time? Was it my free will to go to that church at that time. Yes. Did God have much to do with this. Yes.

I would argue that it was indeed your free will that made you want to go to church but God had more than just "much to do with this." I would argue He had EVERYTHING to do with it. The only reason you wanted to be saved is because He had regenerated you immediately prior to this "decision" you were making. Your nature was changed from a nature of wrath to a nature in Christ. Since we are all bound by our nature, your will chose Christ. However, at this point, there really was no other option. We are all slaves to our own nature and can make no choices outside of it. If even God is bound by this fact how much more so are we?

 

[Ncdataman]

I would argue that it was indeed your free will that made you want to go to church but God had more than just "much to do with this." I would argue He had EVERYTHING to do with it. The only reason you wanted to be saved is because He had regenerated you immediately prior to this "decision" you were making. Your nature was changed from a nature of wrath to a nature in Christ. Since we are all bound by our nature, your will chose Christ. However, at this point, there really was no other option. We are all slaves to our own nature and can make no choices outside of it. If even God is bound by this fact how much more so are we?

This is a ridiculous statement, you really have no choice?

It is all about choice, I have been a pastor for years, I made the choice to follow in God's footsteps, He never forced me. Just as I guide my children and show them the proper path, in hopes they will follow.

However they are free to choose the incorrect path and to suffer the consequences, The same is true is our relationship with God, he gives us the means and the knowledge to make a informed choice, its totally up to us to make that decision.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself." (John 12:32)

 

[farouk]

Ephesians 1 has good material about this subject.

 

[RJ]

This is a ridiculous statement, you really have no choice?

It is all about choice, I have been a pastor for years, I made the choice to follow in God's footsteps, He never forced me. Just as I guide my children and show them the proper path, in hopes they will follow.

However they are free to choose the incorrect path and to suffer the consequences, The same is true is our relationship with God, he gives us the means and the knowledge to make a informed choice, its totally up to us to make that decision.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself." (John 12:32)

I have been round and round with rojoloco, He's pretty solid with his "election Only" theology.

I say this because I want others to know the truth and not this "Dead To The Law" talk.

He is completely stuck in a 'Law" type of mindest , The law of requirements and "must dos".

He has no concept about the truth of Grace and that it is a gift for everyone. And if it is a gift it is free. And it is not a gift if you do not RECIEVE it! If God forces you or elects you to take it , it is not a gift.

I have ask him some pretty pointed questions that dispel his theory but he has always refused to answer them directly.

Of course I believe in Choice and I know God talks about election.
But no way dose he say anything about "Election Only" and "No Choice" like rojoloco espouses.

You know, I look at Adam and Eve and they completely destroy the notion of "Election Only" right from the begining.

So, yes God did make them, that was His choice and He did elect to make them. Yes Adam and Eve had no choice in the matter.

And they walked in the garden with the Lord, up close and personal!

Even Moses couldn't do that. Moses asked God to allow him to see all of God's glory (perfection). The best Moses got was having his head held in a crevice of a rock as God walked by. All Moses saw was God's back-side and God said. "for no man can see my face and live.

So how was it that Adam and Eve could?
They were in a complete state of perfection with the Lord, they had no sin. They were not created with a sin nature...they were perfect and were in complete perfect harmony with God. They were naked and didn't even know it.

So, did God elect them to eat the fruit and commit sin. For what purpose? A state of perfection already existed between man and God. If They hadn't disobeid their one command from God, Adam and Eve would be in Eden today and us with them.

So why have the tree and the fruit and forbid them to eat of the fruit?
It is because God elected to not to force man but to give him choice.

We have had choice from the begining.
My God is a God of choice and, in doing so, His unconditional love for me remains the absolute truth!!

 

[rojoloco]

This is a ridiculous statement, you really have no choice?

It is all about choice, I have been a pastor for years, I made the choice to follow in God's footsteps, He never forced me. Just as I guide my children and show them the proper path, in hopes they will follow.

However they are free to choose the incorrect path and to suffer the consequences, The same is true is our relationship with God, he gives us the means and the knowledge to make a informed choice, its totally up to us to make that decision.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself." (John 12:32)

I have a few questions for you then.

1) Do you believe faith is by the grace of God alone?

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2) Do you believe we are saved by God's doing alone or do you believe it is partially by our own doing (steps we take to accomplish it)?

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

3) If you believe you are saved by faith and that faith comes from God, where did your saving faith first come from to make the choice? The moment you made the "choice", you must have already had faith. Did you create it or did God give it to you?

4) Do you believe you must be regenerated in order to have faith or have faith in order to be regenerated?

These will really help the discussion flow better.

 

[Ncdataman]

There are many verses that specifically state that people have free will to execute their own choices. In the book of Deuteronomy, God Himself tells the people to choose to follow Him to receive His blessings:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Joshua tells the people to choose to serve God or the idols of their neighbors.

"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

Many other Old Testament verses tell us to choose to follow the Lord.24 Obviously, choice is not possible if everything is predestined.

Besides the verses that tells us directly to make choices, there are hundreds of verses that tell us how we are to live. Obviously, following this advice requires free will and the ability to choose. So, the Bible indicates pretty clearly that we are to make choices. If everything is predestined, then choice is not possible.

I am closing this thread as it is now gotten to the point it serves no purpose but to divide. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

In Christ,

NC