yes i do agree with what posted. this verse you posted is describing the way we are commanded to love one another. as for what i posted, the god that most of you have described on this thread could not have all of these attributes and exercise them all perfectly without exception. in your interpretation of who God is, he is neither Sovereign or Just. he is not Sovereign because you say he does not control whether you come to him or not. and he is not Just because you say that he died on the cross and bore the weight of all sin from all man. if this were true then God would be unjust for sending any to hell. if their sins have already been paid for by the the blood of christ then there is no more wrath stored up against them. this is not true though. we know that many will be cast into hell. with this in mind. the only way for God to save anyone, without compromising his own nature(which he would never do), is to unconditionally elect those he wants to save. in eternity past, god wrote down the names of those he was going to save in the book of life and elected them to salvation. but the elect are still sinners. so god sent his son to pay the price for His People, which is how it is put in Mathew when the angle is talking to Joseph. this scenario is the only way god could save without compromising his own nature. you might think well since God is Love then he must love all the other people. this is wrong God is Love to his people. Dr. Grant once commented that God is Love but not promiscuous Love. one thing about the doctrine of God loving everyone that i can't get my head around is that if god has the same perfect love for all then why aren't we all saved. it can't be because we don't choose it. we have all been paid for apparently and god loves us so it really isn't our choice is it? i think a god that wants to save someone he love will do it regardless of what the person wants. and he does, but it is not for everyone
God loves everybody?
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yes i do agree with what posted. this verse you posted is describing the way we are commanded to love one another. as for what i posted, the god that most of you have described on this thread could not have all of these attributes and exercise them all perfectly without exception. in your interpretation of who God is, he is neither Sovereign or Just. he is not Sovereign because you say he does not control whether you come to him or not. and he is not Just because you say that he died on the cross and bore the weight of all sin from all man. if this were true then God would be unjust for sending any to hell. if their sins have already been paid for by the the blood of christ then there is no more wrath stored up against them. this is not true though. we know that many will be cast into hell. with this in mind. the only way for God to save anyone, without compromising his own nature(which he would never do), is to unconditionally elect those he wants to save. in eternity past, god wrote down the names of those he was going to save in the book of life and elected them to salvation. but the elect are still sinners. so god sent his son to pay the price for His People, which is how it is put in Mathew when the angle is talking to Joseph. this scenario is the only way god could save without compromising his own nature. you might think well since God is Love then he must love all the other people. this is wrong God is Love to his people. Dr. Grant once commented that God is Love but not promiscuous Love. one thing about the doctrine of God loving everyone that i can't get my head around is that if god has the same perfect love for all then why aren't we all saved. it can't be because we don't choose it. we have all been paid for apparently and god loves us so it really isn't our choice is it? i think a god that wants to save someone he love will do it regardless of what the person wants. and he does, but it is not for everyone
Well like you said you cant seem to get your head wrapped around it but that doesn't mean that the problem is with the concept of God loving everyone, maybe just maybe the problem is with your own understanding.
I find that most christians don't understand God's justice either. For justice to be served fully in the old covenant full restitution must be made. Its about much more than punishment and even that is for corrective purposes.
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are you talking about purgatory?
Boanerges
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LOL.:shade::shade::shade:
That was a good one!
SpiritLedEd
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Quite frankly, Rojoloco, this post of yours has more holes than a ton of swiss cheese. If I have time later this week, I'll respond to it more fully. For now, I'll ask you this: Look at Luke 22:31-33 NIV -
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I (Jesus) have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail."
If Peter's eternal salvation and destiny as an apostle was sealed, as your doctrine claims, why was Jesus worried about him?
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stryder96792
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Upgrade your God.
There is only one theory I've ever seen that would allow for the possibility that some people are just doomed and nothing is going to change it:
Here in the modern world, we have video games. In the massive online games, you have "players" which are characters played by real people sitting at computers who interact with each other, and "NPC's" (literally "non-player characters") which are characters that look and (to a limited programmed degree) act like players, but which are entirely computer generated and controlled. The NPC's aren't real people. The better programmers get at this technology, the closer we come to interacting with a machine that really *seems* human.
It is possible, I suppose, that God has put some creatures on this earth which fall into a category that is similar to that of an NPC. They may look human and act human, but what if they are not? I would not presume to be able to identify them, and I can just see the "opportunity" to twist such an idea to rationalize sexism, racism, elitism, and any of a dozen other isms that already trouble the world.
But... how exactly does a LOVING God look at a mother and say "Ok..you're going to have two children. One of them is going to be an absolute nutcase who murders and turns to paganism and believes he's a god and so on. But hey, he'll be Pharaoh of Egypt someday. Your other child (not even from your womb) will be My prophet, will bring the codified Law to My people, etc. He's gonna murder some guy too early on, but I'll let it slide for him because the guy he kills isn't very nice and is pagan...like you. That sound good to you pretty little mommie-to-be?
Ok..maybe God would do that to a pagan woman, I mean she's "just" a pagan...but what did He have to say to Eve about how Cain turned out?
"Well ya see...I didn't like Cain, so when I created him, I specifically made him twisted and jealous and put murder into his heart. Abel was a sweet kid, sorry about the whole death thing, here...have Seth..this makes it all ok right? Stop crying. This all has a greater purpose. No really, it does. All my other little pre-programmed pre-ordained children will "learn" from this story. Even though they can't really learn anything or ever have a change of heart because I've hard-coded it all. Actually it's really your fault for the thing with the apple. Even though I created you to eat it via pre-destination. Stop crying!"
If you can't imagine God saying something like that, why would you entertain to malign His character by suggesting that He would *do* something like that? You *might* be able to add such NPC humans to the world directly, but having them be born to mothers that will probably love them is a bit cruel.
I worship a better God than this.
----
Look, I'm fully willing to accept that my concept of Justice and Mercy isn't complete enough to wrap around God's actions. For example, I don't know why it's a *sin* to eat pork or wear clothes with two different types of fabric woven together. I *do* know that I'm not going to Hell because I've eaten pork or worn such clothing, nor am I in any hurry to become a Messianic Jew and swear off all future bacon and 50% polyester pants!
There are no less than FIVE separate and distinct judgements described in Revelations. Every man, woman, and child who ever walked the earth is *going* to be resurrected to show up to one of them. That's an *awful* lot of pomp and ceremony for something that's already a done deal.
If Predestination boils down entirely to God creating people who are *going* to go to Hell and *going* to go to Heaven...then Satan *can't* tempt anyone, and the whole fruit episode in Eden was rather silly, Christ's death and resurrection was a meaningless dog and pony show, and all of the unfolding of Creation from beginning to end is nothing more than a complicated game of Solitaire.
Ask any five year old if they want to play a game called "heads I win, tails you lose." They will think about it a bit, figure out they *cannot* win, then tell you (with varying degrees of upset) that the game is unfair.
Let the little child lead you. This is not justice. Everyone with more common sense than God gave geese KNOWS this isn't justice. It isn't mercy either. Yet many verses have already been (mis)quoted that would seem to indicate that this was how things work.
I suppose it's a possible structure for the universe, but it's a rather dreadful one.
Imagine building a large tank that slowly fills with water over people's heads. Put 10 people in the tank. Put chains on the ankles of however many people, let's say half. Now go preach the "Gospel" to all 10 and start filling the tank. Is *anything* you are saying able to help the five people in chains? If the chains are unbreakable because God ordained it be so...what is the point of the Gospel? Or the sacrifice of the Lamb? Or His resurrection?
Under this system, no one is saved. No one *can* be saved. It's just a numbers game and the outcome is ultimately independent of sin, death, and the devil, to say nothing of being independent of Christ. People don't end up with chains on their ankles because they sinned and turned away from God...people sin, mindlessly, mechanically, because God put chains on their ankels.
Predestination therefore neuters the worth of the Great Commission to spread the (now pointless) Gospel and effectively nullifies Christ's own purpose in coming here (to save mankind). That means it's a "doctrine" which is against Christ. Another word for against is "anti-"
Sending Jesus to suffer and die makes no sense under this system. It doesn't change anything. Everything is fixed. Immutable. Done. Dead.
I worship a better God than this.
If you don't, you should upgrade.
There is only one theory I've ever seen that would allow for the possibility that some people are just doomed and nothing is going to change it:
Here in the modern world, we have video games. In the massive online games, you have "players" which are characters played by real people sitting at computers who interact with each other, and "NPC's" (literally "non-player characters") which are characters that look and (to a limited programmed degree) act like players, but which are entirely computer generated and controlled. The NPC's aren't real people. The better programmers get at this technology, the closer we come to interacting with a machine that really *seems* human.
It is possible, I suppose, that God has put some creatures on this earth which fall into a category that is similar to that of an NPC. They may look human and act human, but what if they are not? I would not presume to be able to identify them, and I can just see the "opportunity" to twist such an idea to rationalize sexism, racism, elitism, and any of a dozen other isms that already trouble the world.
But... how exactly does a LOVING God look at a mother and say "Ok..you're going to have two children. One of them is going to be an absolute nutcase who murders and turns to paganism and believes he's a god and so on. But hey, he'll be Pharaoh of Egypt someday. Your other child (not even from your womb) will be My prophet, will bring the codified Law to My people, etc. He's gonna murder some guy too early on, but I'll let it slide for him because the guy he kills isn't very nice and is pagan...like you. That sound good to you pretty little mommie-to-be?
Ok..maybe God would do that to a pagan woman, I mean she's "just" a pagan...but what did He have to say to Eve about how Cain turned out?
"Well ya see...I didn't like Cain, so when I created him, I specifically made him twisted and jealous and put murder into his heart. Abel was a sweet kid, sorry about the whole death thing, here...have Seth..this makes it all ok right? Stop crying. This all has a greater purpose. No really, it does. All my other little pre-programmed pre-ordained children will "learn" from this story. Even though they can't really learn anything or ever have a change of heart because I've hard-coded it all. Actually it's really your fault for the thing with the apple. Even though I created you to eat it via pre-destination. Stop crying!"
If you can't imagine God saying something like that, why would you entertain to malign His character by suggesting that He would *do* something like that? You *might* be able to add such NPC humans to the world directly, but having them be born to mothers that will probably love them is a bit cruel.
I worship a better God than this.
----
Look, I'm fully willing to accept that my concept of Justice and Mercy isn't complete enough to wrap around God's actions. For example, I don't know why it's a *sin* to eat pork or wear clothes with two different types of fabric woven together. I *do* know that I'm not going to Hell because I've eaten pork or worn such clothing, nor am I in any hurry to become a Messianic Jew and swear off all future bacon and 50% polyester pants!
There are no less than FIVE separate and distinct judgements described in Revelations. Every man, woman, and child who ever walked the earth is *going* to be resurrected to show up to one of them. That's an *awful* lot of pomp and ceremony for something that's already a done deal.
If Predestination boils down entirely to God creating people who are *going* to go to Hell and *going* to go to Heaven...then Satan *can't* tempt anyone, and the whole fruit episode in Eden was rather silly, Christ's death and resurrection was a meaningless dog and pony show, and all of the unfolding of Creation from beginning to end is nothing more than a complicated game of Solitaire.
Ask any five year old if they want to play a game called "heads I win, tails you lose." They will think about it a bit, figure out they *cannot* win, then tell you (with varying degrees of upset) that the game is unfair.
Let the little child lead you. This is not justice. Everyone with more common sense than God gave geese KNOWS this isn't justice. It isn't mercy either. Yet many verses have already been (mis)quoted that would seem to indicate that this was how things work.
I suppose it's a possible structure for the universe, but it's a rather dreadful one.
Imagine building a large tank that slowly fills with water over people's heads. Put 10 people in the tank. Put chains on the ankles of however many people, let's say half. Now go preach the "Gospel" to all 10 and start filling the tank. Is *anything* you are saying able to help the five people in chains? If the chains are unbreakable because God ordained it be so...what is the point of the Gospel? Or the sacrifice of the Lamb? Or His resurrection?
Under this system, no one is saved. No one *can* be saved. It's just a numbers game and the outcome is ultimately independent of sin, death, and the devil, to say nothing of being independent of Christ. People don't end up with chains on their ankles because they sinned and turned away from God...people sin, mindlessly, mechanically, because God put chains on their ankels.
Predestination therefore neuters the worth of the Great Commission to spread the (now pointless) Gospel and effectively nullifies Christ's own purpose in coming here (to save mankind). That means it's a "doctrine" which is against Christ. Another word for against is "anti-"
Sending Jesus to suffer and die makes no sense under this system. It doesn't change anything. Everything is fixed. Immutable. Done. Dead.
I worship a better God than this.
If you don't, you should upgrade.
This is only an area of confusion if you have the misunderstanding that God loves all people. Would it be loving for God to send someone to Hell when all He has to do is say they were saved? He is God after all. Can't He bend the rules to make room for everybody to share in eternal life with Him in His love? Sadly, these are questions that one cannot answer if he truly believes that God loves all people. When it says God loved the world, it is the world without distinction, not the world without exception.
And you think I had holes? I thought my post was air tight personally. I'll break this one down as well.
You seem to be coming at it with the conclusion that since Jesus was praying for Peter that he must have been worried that Satan would carry him away from the fold. This doesn't get any more inaccurate.
Luke 22:24 said:
We see the apostles were arguing amongst themselves about who was the greatest. Of course, this is pride and it is wrong. While it is evident Jesus was speaking to all of them (as they were all present and all participating in the argument), Jesus specifically calls out Peter.
Luke 22:31 said:
However, notice that he calls him by his old name of Simon. This was to act as a reminder. Also, Jesus says Satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat. This was not a bad thing necessarily. Sifting of wheat got rid of all the bad stuff but left behind the valuable stuff so that it could be used. In the same way, while it would be unpleasant for Peter to go through it, we know that in the end, he would come out stronger than ever. We actually see this after Jesus died. Peter went through a down time but then came back stronger than ever. Is this a coincidence? Could Peter have fallen away? Is this why Jesus prayed for him? Certainly not!
1 John 5:14-15 said:
Who knows the will of God more than God Himself? When Jesus prayed, it was more than sitting around hoping God would grant his prayers. When Jesus prayed, he prayed with a confidence and a knowledge of God's will. If Jesus prayed, it would be in accordance with the will of God every time. His prayers would always be answered. Hence, we can see that it was not fear that is being portrayed in Jesus' comment to Peter. It is reassuring hope! Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would never fail and that after being sifted, he would come back stronger than ever and help strengthen his brothers. Is it any surprise that this is exactly what happened? Not at all!
i had a thought this morning that I would like to share. If Christ died for the sins of all men, meaning he bore the wrath of the Father for the sins of all men, as most of you claim he did, then there would be no wrath left from the father. In fact, for God to send anyone to Hell would an injustice because he would be punishing twice for the same crime. If Christ died for all then all would be saved because his blood would have atoned for there sins. seeing as how this is not the case it would be reasonable to assume something else
Boanerges
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That only makes sense when viewed from your perspective with precludes choice.
If you had a billion $'s in the bank and never used it you could starve to death.
SpiritLedEd
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My friend, everyone is on God's invitation list. Read Mt 22:11. The man who comes to the banquet without wearing proper clothing is a metaphor for those who pretend to be sincere seekers and cannot show proof.
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I was not speaking from my point of view I was speaking from yours. what i said i was saying from the belief that Christ died for all men. if this is in fact true, then the father is an unjust God, and therefore is not the god that we worship. the God we worship is a just God. the reality is that the only way for God to save without compromising his Perfect Nature is through election
SpiritLedEd
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This thread is closed. We've had twelve pages of discussion. Time to wrap it up.
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