God loves everybody?

[Boanerges]

However, let's look at what you posted. You claim that God calls all people but only some choose Him while others reject. You then go on to post a verse that says He only called those whom He predestined. Furthermore, it says He justified and glorified everybody whom He called. Well, this puts us in a pickle now doesn't it?

You are very self contradictory my friend, you must be getting dizzy running in circles- LOL.
Twisting the meanings of my posts won't make you right.
I posted a verse that flatly says God choose the destiny of the people involved based of their decisions not to obey Him.
It is not a contradiction but a clarification to Romans 8:28-9 and 1 Peter 1:2.
While I too believe that predestination is set in stone it is only done according to foreknowledge.

 

[Boanerges]

Lets drop the back and forth thing for one moment and examine this verse:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

I have no trouble believing God foreknew these events. It is quite obvious that the Lord Himself is saying He will give them delusions based their choice to please their own flesh rather than serve Him.
His reaction was to their choice.
I have no trouble believing that He saw this for He is yesterday, He is today and He is tomorrow- He simply is and is not constrained by time like we are.

 

[TomMann]

Sovereign Sovereign Sovereign

This debate of opinion has raged through the centuries. I don't expect any here to change their opinion, just more debate. On some sites the debates can become very uncivil and almost profane.

Personally I find too many scriptures that declare God's Sovereign design in all he set his good will and pleasure to.

That and the primary thought that if it is man's choosing, if it is within man's ability to choose, then it is good people who are rewarded and allowed heaven, and the bad meet their just reward in hell.

 

[cman77]

His reaction was to their choice.

God has never reacted to anything. has it ever dawned on you that nothing ever dawned on god? God is eternal. because he is eternal every act he will ever do or has done has been done since the foundation of this world. the idea that god reacts to our actions, i believe gives man far more power than he has. my life is not an on going chess game between me and god. it's not as though god is trying to catch me and make me one of his own and i continue to elude him. if he wants me, he will take me whether i want it or not. Being my creator, he has the right to do with me as he will, whether it be destroying me or honoring me. it has nothing to do with my "free will." it is Gods grace that saves us from our sins and makes us turn to him. and unless we have already turned to him we would never ask him for his grace. God does not give Grace to people because they ask for it, to those who it is given it is given to before they ask for. with this in mind the only conclusion that we can make is that it is Gods Sovereign Choice that saves and nothing else

(The "Free will of man" is not a biblical doctrine. in fact, the words free will only appear in the bible once, but not in the context of this subject

 

[Boanerges]

Personally I find too many scriptures that declare God's Sovereign design in all he set his good will and pleasure to. That and the primary thought that if it is man's choosing, if it is within man's ability to choose, then it is good people who are rewarded and allowed heaven, and the bad meet their just reward in hell.

Just my thoughts:
That was my point earlier. Finding scriptures that say one thing does not negate scriptures that say something else.
There are more scriptures that say Jesus was a man than say He was God and yet He was both.
By ignoring one side of that equation you could wind up being a Jehovah's witness. As I do not plan on joining any cults or getting into other areas of error I prefer to include all of what God's Word says on a subject.
By doing that one must conclude that predestination is by foreknowledge and that foreknowledge of man's choice. That would not get a "good person" into heaven as there is no such thing. But it would indicate God had a knowledge of who would respond to loves call.

 

[Boanerges]

God has never reacted to anything. has it ever dawned on you that nothing ever dawned on god? God is eternal. because he is eternal every act he will ever do or has done has been done since the foundation of this world. the idea that god reacts to our actions, i believe gives man far more power than he has. my life is not an on going chess game between me and god. it's not as though god is trying to catch me and make me one of his own and i continue to elude him. if he wants me, he will take me whether i want it or not. Being my creator, he has the right to do with me as he will, whether it be destroying me or honoring me. it has nothing to do with my "free will." it is Gods grace that saves us from our sins and makes us turn to him. and unless we have already turned to him we would never ask him for his grace. God does not give Grace to people because they ask for it, to those who it is given it is given to before they ask for. with this in mind the only conclusion that we can make is that it is Gods Sovereign Choice that saves and nothing else

(The "Free will of man" is not a biblical doctrine. in fact, the words free will only appear in the bible once, but not in the context of this subject

You need to reread your bible. God reacts to sinful choice from Adam, to Israel, to the end of Revelations. Personally from looking at your post I can see that you have not really read what I have been posting here or you would not have all these misconceptions of what I am saying.
red emphasis mine:
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

To continue in your doctrine you will have to take a pair of scissors and remove this verse from your Bible or simply ignore it. When you have to start ignoring scripture to keep your doctrine intact the error lay with you.

 

[rojoloco]

Lets drop the back and forth thing for one moment and examine this verse:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

I have no trouble believing God foreknew these events. It is quite obvious that the Lord Himself is saying He will give them delusions based their choice to please their own flesh rather than serve Him.
His reaction was to their choice.
I have no trouble believing that He saw this for He is yesterday, He is today and He is tomorrow- He simply is and is not constrained by time like we are.

Then how do you tie it in with Scripture that says those whom God called, He also predestined? There are clearly two different types of calls. You believe God is not constrained but then you constrain Him by human will.

That was my point earlier. Finding scriptures that say one thing does not negate scriptures that say something else.

I feel the same way. I know what Scripture says as a whole (so I understand the proper context of the verses being presented). You are presenting a few random verses, negating Scripture as a whole, and then telling us we are wrong? Is this simply because we disagree with your snippet theology?

By doing that one must conclude that predestination is by foreknowledge and that foreknowledge of man's choice. That would not get a "good person" into heaven as there is no such thing. But it would indicate God had a knowledge of who would respond to loves call.

You are still contradicting yourself here. You also did not reply to my cause and effect proposal of your ideas. If God caused by predestination, the effect is His Elect coming to Him. If people caused by the choice they made, the effect is nothing more than God sitting by idly watching people come and go as they please. There can be no predestination unless it is based on a cause of God. Predestination cannot be an effect or it is not predestination but rather post-categorization.

To continue in your doctrine you will have to take a pair of scissors and remove this verse from your Bible or simply ignore it. When you have to start ignoring scripture to keep your doctrine intact the error lay with you

I'm going to take everything you just said to cman and say it you. You keep taking this one verse and letting it interpret itself. I, on the other hand, let the rest of Scripture interpret it and even provided 3 other verses with a break down of each one that showed how all 4 verses are actually in agreement on predestination. However, you neglected to comment on this. Instead, you reposted your one verse with highlighted of your own doing and continued to let it interpret itself while neglecting what I posted.

 

[cman77]

God reacts to sinful choice from Adam, to Israel, to the end of Revelations.

what i meant was god's action are not determined by our. i say this because of his eternal nature and his sovereign. he is eternal and because of this fact we must realize that every thing that is going to happen in the future is already done. God has already done whatever he is going to do. the reason he knows how to "react" to certain situations is because he has written the script for the history of the world and nobody can escape. God doesn't simply know what move you are going to make, he sovereignly wrote the script for what you are going to do.

 

[Boanerges]

Then how do you tie it in with Scripture that says those whom God called, He also predestined? There are clearly two different types of calls. You believe God is not constrained but then you constrain Him by human will.

I already explained that Rojo, those He Foreknew He predestined.

 

[Boanerges]

what i meant was god's action are not determined by our. i say this because of his eternal nature and his sovereign. he is eternal and because of this fact we must realize that every thing that is going to happen in the future is already done. God has already done whatever he is going to do. the reason he knows how to "react" to certain situations is because he has written the script for the history of the world and nobody can escape. God doesn't simply know what move you are going to make, he sovereignly wrote the script for what you are going to do.

Here is what the translators of 1 different bibles had to say about it (these guys read and wrote Hebrew and Greek like we read a newspaper):
Isa 66:4
(red emphasis mine
(ASV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Bishops) Therfore wyll I also haue pleasure in laughyng them to scorne, & the thyng that they feare will I bring vpon them: For when I called, no man gaue aunswere, when I spake, they woulde not heare: but did wickednesse before mine eyes, and chose the thynges that displeased me.


(Darby) I also will choose their calamities, and will bring their fears upon them; because I called, and none answered, I spoke, and they did not hear, but did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delight not.


(DRB) Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me.



(ESV) I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."


(Geneva) Therefore will I chuse out their delusions, and I will bring their feare vpon them, because I called, and none woulde answere: I spake and they woulde not heare: but they did euill in my sight, and chose the things which I would not.


(GNB) So I will bring disaster upon them---the very things they are afraid of---because no one answered when I called or listened when I spoke. They chose to disobey me and do evil."

(GW) So I will choose harsh treatment for them and bring on them what they fear. I called, but no one answered. I spoke, but they didn't listen. They did what I consider evil. They chose what I don't like.


(JPS) Even so I will choose their mockings, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear, but they did that which was evil in Mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV+) IH589 alsoH1571 will chooseH977 their delusions,H8586 and will bringH935 their fearsH4035 upon them; becauseH3282 when I called,H7121 noneH369 did answer;H6030 when I spake,H1696 they did notH3808 hear:H8085 but they didH6213 evilH7451 before mine eyes,H5869 and choseH977 that in whichH834 I delightedH2654 not.H3808

(KJV-1611) I also will chuse their delusions, and will bring their feares vpon them; because when I called, none did answere, when I spake they did not heare: but they did euill before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


(KJVA) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(LITV) I also will choose their vexations; and I will bring their fears to them; because I called, and no one answered; I spoke, and they did not hear. But they did the evil in My eyes, and chose that in which I had no pleasure.

MKJV) I also will choose the things that delude them, and I will bring their fears on them, because I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear. But they did evil before My eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

(RV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Webster) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before my eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(YLT) I also--I fix on their vexations, And their fears I bring in to them, Because I have called, and there is none answering, I spake, and they have not hearkened, And they do the evil things in Mine eyes, And on that which I desired not--fixed.


Clearly the Word of God declares that God reacted to their choices. It speaks for itself. If you doctrine has to discount the Word to be complete then it is your doctrine that needs adjusting.

 

[Boanerges]

I feel the same way. I know what Scripture says as a whole (so I understand the proper context of the verses being presented). You are presenting a few random verses, negating Scripture as a whole, and then telling us we are wrong? Is this simply because we disagree with your snippet theology?

That is the difference between us Rojo, I do not look at any verses of scripture as random. And as they are all quite plainly addressing the same subject I must find a harmony among them. It seems as though you want to ignore those scriptures that contradict your belief system.

 

[TomMann]

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


Okay, in examining this verse how many answered when he called? None, right! And why is that, because when he spake none heard. Kind of hard to respond to a call you don't hear. This is one of my favorite verses in bringing to light man's depravity. None hear, none answer. They just do what they do by nature, which is evil before the eyes of the Lord. They all chose. But they chose the only thing they knew because of their sin nature. They cannot comprehend the things of the spirit or understand the things of God. They choose the vain imaginations of their hearts.

I have no trouble believing God foreknew these events either. But I have no trouble believing this because the Word of God says that God declared the end from the beginning.

 

[cman77]

God is Sovereign
God is Holy
God is Eternal
God is Righteous
God is Just
God is Love

He exercises all of his attributes perfectly and in perfect unity.

would you agree?

 

[rojoloco]

I already explained that Rojo, those He Foreknew He predestined.

But this is not what it says when you really look at it. Let's look at the big picture.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It does say those whom He foreknew, He also predestined. However, it also says those whom He predestined, He called. Your claim is that those whom He called rejected Him. The Bible says, He predestined the people whom He called. If they were predestined, it leaves no room for rejection. Furthermore, if they were predestined, it leaves no room for choice. If it was choice, it leaves no room for predestination. If one was called yet rejected Him, it goes against the very writing of Romans 8:30 unless we understand there are 2 different types of calls. There is the internal call which nobody can turn from and the external call which the non-Elect will look upon as being foolish.

 

[rojoloco]

That is the difference between us Rojo, I do not look at any verses of scripture as random. And as they are all quite plainly addressing the same subject I must find a harmony among them. It seems as though you want to ignore those scriptures that contradict your belief system.

It is statements like these that make me wonder if you truly read my posts. Not once have I ignored Scripture presented to me. In fact, every time you post a verse, I take that very verse and then use multiple other verses to exegetically break down the one you supplied. As for the verses I supply in return, you often ignore those and then just repost your initial verse and say we are wrong because (insert the same reason you initially posted).

 

[Boanerges]

Rojo, I am reading your posts but you simply do not seem to grasp what i have been sharing. Unless the scripture is to random for you.

Isa 66:4
(red emphasis mine
(ASV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Bishops) Therfore wyll I also haue pleasure in laughyng them to scorne, & the thyng that they feare will I bring vpon them: For when I called, no man gaue aunswere, when I spake, they woulde not heare: but did wickednesse before mine eyes, and chose the thynges that displeased me.


(Darby) I also will choose their calamities, and will bring their fears upon them; because I called, and none answered, I spoke, and they did not hear, but did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delight not.


(DRB) Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me.



(ESV) I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."


(Geneva) Therefore will I chuse out their delusions, and I will bring their feare vpon them, because I called, and none woulde answere: I spake and they woulde not heare: but they did euill in my sight, and chose the things which I would not.


(GNB) So I will bring disaster upon them---the very things they are afraid of---because no one answered when I called or listened when I spoke. They chose to disobey me and do evil."

(GW) So I will choose harsh treatment for them and bring on them what they fear. I called, but no one answered. I spoke, but they didn't listen. They did what I consider evil. They chose what I don't like.


(JPS) Even so I will choose their mockings, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear, but they did that which was evil in Mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(KJV+) IH589 alsoH1571 will chooseH977 their delusions,H8586 and will bringH935 their fearsH4035 upon them; becauseH3282 when I called,H7121 noneH369 did answer;H6030 when I spake,H1696 they did notH3808 hear:H8085 but they didH6213 evilH7451 before mine eyes,H5869 and choseH977 that in whichH834 I delightedH2654 not.H3808

(KJV-1611) I also will chuse their delusions, and will bring their feares vpon them; because when I called, none did answere, when I spake they did not heare: but they did euill before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


(KJVA) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(LITV) I also will choose their vexations; and I will bring their fears to them; because I called, and no one answered; I spoke, and they did not hear. But they did the evil in My eyes, and chose that in which I had no pleasure.

MKJV) I also will choose the things that delude them, and I will bring their fears on them, because I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear. But they did evil before My eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

(RV) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did that which was evil in mine eyes, and chose that wherein I delighted not.

(Webster) I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before my eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

(YLT) I also--I fix on their vexations, And their fears I bring in to them, Because I have called, and there is none answering, I spake, and they have not hearkened, And they do the evil things in Mine eyes, And on that which I desired not--fixed.


Clearly the Word of God declares that God reacted to their choices. It speaks for itself. If you doctrine has to discount the Word to be complete then it is your doctrine that needs adjusting.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

God Loves Everybody???

The "Free will of man" is not a biblical doctrine. in fact, the words free will only appear in the bible once, but not in the context of this subject

While the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in Scripture, there are quite a few citations that testify to man's freedom to choose to follow God or not follow Him. Here are a few of them:

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." (Deut 30:19 NIV)

".....choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve....." Jos 24:15 NIV).

"Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord," (Prv 1:29 NIV)

"Freely you have received, freely give." (Mt 10:8 NIV)

SLE

 

[rojoloco]

While the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in Scripture, there are quite a few citations that testify to man's freedom to choose to follow God or not follow Him. Here are a few of them:

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." (Deut 30:19 NIV)

".....choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve....." Jos 24:15 NIV).

"Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord," (Prv 1:29 NIV)

"Freely you have received, freely give." (Mt 10:8 NIV)

SLE

However, there are just as many that speak of man not having a say in the matter because of the impossibility of such a thing. I won't repost them as I have already said them multiple times throughout this thread. In fact, Romans 9 should be enough in and of itself to knock down any idea of free will. It clearly states that God made man to an eternal destination of His choosing and man is not to question God why He would make them as such. Add that to John telling us that unbelievers are bound to the will of Satan and actually do so willingly. Now take all that and add it to the Old Testament Law. The New Testament tells us the whole purpose of OT Law was to show the people how helpless and wretched they were. They were commanded to do things that they could never do so that they could give God all the glory and see how vile they were. It's the same deal with the verses you posted above. Just because God says it doesn't mean we can do it. They were meant to show how helpless they were and that they were incapable of doing such things.

 

[jiggyfly]

God is Sovereign
God is Holy
God is Eternal
God is Righteous
God is Just
God is Love

He exercises all of his attributes perfectly and in perfect unity.

would you agree?

Absolutely, but do you?

1Cr 13:4-7 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.:shade:

 

[SavedByHim]

You're headed in the right direction, cman77, but you're not quite lined up with the runway. In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." The question, then, is how does one get on the Father's invitation list? That answer is in v45:"It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. (Is 54:13)'. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me."

The bottom line is that God draws everyone who is a serious seeker of spiritual truth to Himself through Jesus.

SLE

I like this a lot.....I've always wondered about this myself, and you did a good job of explaining how to "get on Father's invitation list"