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Works based salvation ??

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Again, when you have an argument come back and we can discuss it. However, there is no point in addressing nonsense.

Well if I were you I would go back to my posts to you and deal with them. I have accused you of stumbling the weak.

You see Christians can have many disagreements. Most of them are not serious. They are Rom 14:5 disagreements. But, when a disagreement is as a result of one person's belief incriminating God as evil, it is a serious disagreement as scripture is crystal clear that God is not evil. A Christians 'one' job is to be an ambassador for Jesus. Explaining to the lost how God is good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

By not doing this, dancing around this and other accusations from me to you about incriminating God as evil, you are failing at your 'one' job.

So please, whenever you feel like it, explain to me how you are doing a loving God justice by telling a young believer who gives their life to Jesus, that Jesus will not accept them or ever invite them into His home.

Go, floor is yours.......

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I must say, I still roll my eyes at you dancing around and ignoring Phil 3:20 and the others I gave you. It is not even like you are a good dancer. Re-reading the posts you really just ignore them and don't even try understand the point being made. I am convinced you tear pages out of your bible. ''Ah this verse doesn't have that specific word I am looking for, I will ignore all its meaning and tear it out of my bible''. Just as you do with Lazarus and the rich man. Even if it were a parable, you reject all Jesus says in half the chapter.
 
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Well if I were you I would go back to my posts to you and deal with them. I have accused you of stumbling the weak.

You see Christians can have many disagreements. Most of them are not serious. They are Rom 14:5 disagreements. But, when a disagreement is as a result of one person's belief incriminating God as evil, it is a serious disagreement as scripture is crystal clear that God is not evil. A Christians 'one' job is to be an ambassador for Jesus. Explaining to the lost how God is good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

By not doing this, dancing around this and other accusations from me to you about incriminating God as evil, you are failing at your 'one' job.

So please, whenever you feel like it, explain to me how you are doing a loving God justice by telling a young believer who gives their life to Jesus, that Jesus will not accept them or ever invite them into His home.

Go, floor is yours.......

--------------------------------

I must say, I still roll my eyes at you dancing around and ignoring Phil 3:20 and the others I gave you. It is not even like you are a good dancer. Re-reading the posts you really just ignore them and don't even try understand the point being made. I am convinced you tear pages out of your bible. ''Ah this verse doesn't have that specific word I am looking for, I will ignore all its meaning and tear it out of my bible''. Just as you do with Lazarus and the rich man. Even if it were a parable, you reject all Jesus says in half the chapter.
There's no reason to go back and read your posts. Your arguments are based on false premises. If anyone is causing Christians to stumble it's you, my friend. I don't know of a single denomination in Christendom that claims God punished Himself. It seems you're on an island alone on this one. Again, you charge people with avoidance and then avoid the evidence yourself. If God punished Himself who raised Him from the dead?

From what I can gather here you've got a belief system that is somewhere between Trinitarianism and Modalism. Again, you're alone on an Island. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died for sin. However, according to you God died for sins. This makes Jesus and God one and the same which is Modalism.

Nothing that I've posted indicates that God is evil. That claim is based on your misunderstanding of Scripture. I've stated plainly that God did not punish Jesus. So, that nullifies your statement about God punishing one in place of another being evil. It's irrelevant because as I said, God did not punish Jesus. That you see it as punishment is problematic and shows that you hold to the doctrine of Penal Atonement., which is another UNBIBLICAL doctrine. A few posts ago I presented the Ransom Atonement understanding which is what the Scriptures teach. But you called the Scriptural doctrine a "Croc." So, who's causing people to stumble?

So, if you want to accusing people of dancing you should stand still yourself. You come in here and accuse people of not knowing the Scriptures based on your misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Just because you believe a doctrine doesn't' make that doctrine true. Yet, when challenged about said doctrine you completely ignore it. That's not how debates work.

You made an accusation that not holding the Trinity doctrine portrays God as evil for punishing one person for the sins of another. Then you accused me of that position. However, I refuted your accusation by stating that God did to punish Jesus. Then I took the time to go to the Scriptures and early Christian history to prove that point, which you simply blew off. So, if you want to make accusations you need to prove that the premise of your argument is valid. So, please go to the Scriptures and show us where the Scriptures teach that God punished Himself. Go to the Scriptures and show us where they teach the doctrine of Penal Atonement. Because if you can't prove these two doctrines from Scripture, you're just blowing smoke. And that my friend is what I have not spent the time to address your arguments. Because you can't prove those two doctrines. Thus your arguments are nothing more that arbitrary and opinions.
 
Well if I were you I would go back to my posts to you and deal with them. I have accused you of stumbling the weak.

You see Christians can have many disagreements. Most of them are not serious. They are Rom 14:5 disagreements. But, when a disagreement is as a result of one person's belief incriminating God as evil, it is a serious disagreement as scripture is crystal clear that God is not evil. A Christians 'one' job is to be an ambassador for Jesus. Explaining to the lost how God is good and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

By not doing this, dancing around this and other accusations from me to you about incriminating God as evil, you are failing at your 'one' job.

So please, whenever you feel like it, explain to me how you are doing a loving God justice by telling a young believer who gives their life to Jesus, that Jesus will not accept them or ever invite them into His home.

Go, floor is yours.......

--------------------------------

I must say, I still roll my eyes at you dancing around and ignoring Phil 3:20 and the others I gave you. It is not even like you are a good dancer. Re-reading the posts you really just ignore them and don't even try understand the point being made. I am convinced you tear pages out of your bible. ''Ah this verse doesn't have that specific word I am looking for, I will ignore all its meaning and tear it out of my bible''. Just as you do with Lazarus and the rich man. Even if it were a parable, you reject all Jesus says in half the chapter.
Regarding the PARABLE of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it's your claim that this is an explanation of what happens when people die. Your claim that it's a literal account is based on the fact that Jesus used names. Please explain how that has any bearing on the reality of the story. It doesn't. That claim is a complete non sequitur. There is absolutely no logical reason to accept that claim. It's simply arbitrary. Just because some claims that using names make it an actual event is nonsense. On the other hand, you ignored that fact that the parable before it starts exactly the same way and the parable before that one starts very similar. You ignored the fact that the dead can't speak. The supposed bodiless entities have bodies. How does that work. The reason you believe it's an actual event is because you hold another false doctrine that forces you to understand it that way. That doctrine is the Immortal Soul doctrine. This is another doctrine that is completely "UNBIBLICAL. It was, however, very popular among the Greeks and Gnostics in New Testament times. So, I go back to a previous point, often times one false doctrine leads to another.

Regarding your absolutely nonsensical claim that I ignore the parable and rip it from my Bible, I think you're being disingenuous at best because I've addressed this passage soooo many times on this forum that it's virtually impossible that you could have missed it. However, to show your claim is nonsense I'll address it once more. If you bother to read it, come back afterwards and tell me again how I ignored the passage and tore it from my Bible.

The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is another of the often-misunderstood passages of Scripture. Many Christians believe that Jesus is describing the afterlife. However, this is not the case. In the parable He is addressing the Scribes and Pharisees, not His disciples. The purpose of the parables was so that they would see and not perceive and hear and not understand.

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Mat 13:34-35 KJV)

10 the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and theirears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.(Mat 13:10-16 KJV)

What's often overlooked in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man are the verses that come just before it.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. (Lk. 16:14-18 NKJ)

The Pharisees, hearing Jesus' previous parables derided Him. So, He turns His attention to them. First He chastises them for seeking justification before men. Then He says, the Law and the Prophets were until John. He said that to the Scribes and Pharisees. What He is essentially saying there is, you guys are done. Your reign is over. A change is coming. Essentially, the priesthood is over. Then He points back to Malachi when He accuses them of divorcing their wives. You need to read the whole book of Malachi (4 chapters). Remember this is the last book of the OT and it is the last communication Israel had with God until Christ came. Here is chapter 2, remember, Jesus gave the parable to the Scribes and Pharisees.

And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. 3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? (Mal. 2:1-17 KJV)

Here Malachi speaks of the corrupt priesthood. In the prophecy look at what God said of the priesthood, "and one shall take you away with it". Here God is speaking of taking away the Priesthood. That's exactly what happened in AD 70. Notice in verse 8 God says they have departed from the way, caused many to stumble and have corrupted the covenant with Levi. Consider what Jesus said to them in His day,

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." 3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Matt. 15:1-9 NKJ)

and,

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matt. 23:15 KJV)

and,

Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; (Matt. 26:59 KJV)

Notice in Verse 6 God said, "The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips". This speaks of the covenant with Levi. Levi is the head of the Levites, the tribe of the priesthood. Yet, look a them here in Jesus day. They are looking for people to bear false witness. They have corrupted the covenant with Levi.

All of this is leading up to the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. By saying whoever divorces his wife commits adultery, Jesus is pointing back to Malachi and this prophecy of the taking away of the priesthood. The Scribes and the Pharisees should have been very familiar with Malachi and should have seen the connection Jesus was making. From this background Jesus goes into the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. In this parable we see the taking away of the priesthood just like God said in Malachi 2:3

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather it is a judgment against those to whom Jesus was speaking, the leadership of Israel. There are quite a few reasons to question the idea that this parable is about an afterlife. Why would one think this is a parable about an afterlife? If that’s the case, does it mean that the rich go to hell and the poor get saved? Jesus didn't say the rich man was wicked, He just said he was rich. Jesus didn't say that Lazarus was righteous, just that he was a poor. What is here that would indicate that this is what happens to the righteous and the wicked upon death?

The details of the parable give us an indication of what it means. We're told that the Rich Man was clothed in purple and fine linen. What does that mean? We see that the Rich Man is a Jew. Why? We're told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers, why? Why is the beggar named Lazarus? What is "Abraham's bosom:"? All of these details are indications of what the parable is about. This parable is drawn from several Old Testament passages. For instance, the Rich Man is said to be suffering torment in flames in Hades. However, Jesus indicated that Gehenna is where the wicked will go. In the Scriptures Hades is usually translated the grave, not a place of torment. The grave is where the body goes. The Rich Man was in Hades, this indicates his body. We know that dead people can't speak so we should consider that this is a parable.

So, what do the details mean? In Jesus' day Israel didn't have a king, however, the priesthood unofficially served that role. Purple was the color of royalty and the priests wore fine linen, this indicates that the Rich Man represents the priesthood. We're also told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers. Levi had 5 brothers. Levi is the head of the Levites which was the tribe of the Priesthood. Why is the beggar named Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means, God Help. Who did God Help? Was it not Jesus? Wasn't the Father with Him and in Him. We're told that Lazarus was covered in sores. Jesus was covered in sores from the lashings. We're told that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. In the Scriptures Gentiles are referred to as dogs by the Jews. So we have the Rich Man, the Jews, rejecting Lazarus while the dogs, the Gentiles, are accepting Him. Why is Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? Contrary to popular belief, Abraham's bosom is not a location somewhere in the Earth. Abraham's bosom is mentioned in another place in Scripture,

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

We see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in an intimate relationship with Abraham. So, if Lazarus represents Jesus, what does it mean that He is in Abraham's bosom? It means that Abraham is embracing His long promised seed. The Jewish leadership thought that they were the seed of Abraham and heirs to the promises. While they were the physical seed of Abraham, they weren't the promised seed of Abraham. Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham. Paul tells us,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, in this parable we see the long awaited Seed of Abraham being embraced by Abraham, and the Jews, the physical seed, being cast off. They’re suffering in the flame. Since this is Hades and not Gehenna, what is the flame. We can see what it is from several Old Testament prophesies. In the Song of Moses, Moses wrote of what would happen to Israel in the latter days.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. (Deut. 32:18-25 KJV)

Paul quotes from this passage and applies it to his time so we know that's the time period. Notice verse 22. God says a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is about judgment in Christ's day. We know that that judgment came in A.D. 70. What we see here is that God's anger is the fire that burns in Hades. The Rich Man, the priesthood, is suffering God's anger in this parable. We have another prophesy of this same event. I'll post a few passages for the sake of space. It's best to read all of Isaiah 28 and 29 to get the full gist of this judgment.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!1

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. 3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:1 (Isa. 28:1-3 KJV)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (Isa. 28:14-15 KJV)

God says Israel will be trodden underfoot. In verse 14 we see that God is addressing the leadership of Israel. However, notice what Israel has said, they had made a covenant with death and are in agreement with Hades. This is their agreement with Rome. He goes on,

Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.1 (Isa. 29:1-4 KJV)

Notice here that God is going to lay siege against Ariel, Jerusalem. This is where the temple and the priesthood are. Remember, God said they were in a covenant with Hades. Hades is the grave. In verse 4 Gods says of the priesthood you shall be brought down, you shall speak out of the dust. The Rich Man who represents the priesthood was in Hades, the dust, speaking out of the ground. Notice also that God says their voice shall be one who has a familiar spirit. We can see this in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I'm going to stop here as this post is getting long. There is a lot more that could be said on this parable. I haven't even touched on Psalm 50 which is also mentioned in this parable. The point is that in this parable Jesus is weaving together several Old Testament prophesies that speak of the coming judgement of Israel. These priests who knew the Scriptures well should have seen this.
 
@KingJ

Parts 2 and 3.

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Part 2)

In the last post I spoke of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. I didn’t go into much detail due to the length of the post. I need to give more detail so as to show what the parable is about. As we saw in the last post, Jesus was addressing the Scribe and the Pharisees after they had derided Him. Essentially, they were laughing at and mocking Him. This is where He turned His attention to them and says that the Law and the Prophets were until John. This is a statement about the end of the Law and the Prophets. Their time as rulers was coming to an end. He also accused them of justifying themselves before men, being Lovers of money, and wrongfully divorcing their wives. The book of Malachi is about judgment of Israel. it's aimed primarily at the priesthood.

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:

If then I be a father, where is mine honour?

And if I be a master, where is my fear?

Saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name.

And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar;

And ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee?

In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil?

And if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?

Offer it now unto thy governor;

Will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 1:6-8 KJV)

In this passage we see the priests justifying themselves.

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me.

But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?

In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me,

Even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,

That there may be meat in mine house,

And prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts,

If I will not open you the windows of heaven,

And pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Here we have Lovers of money.

Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, Against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: Yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek ta godly seed. Therefore, take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: For one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: Therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, And he delighteth in them; Or, Where is the God of judgment? (Mal 2:14-17 KJV)

After asking, “where is the judgment of God,” the Lord says,

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: And the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:

Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: And he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

(Mal 3:1-3 KJV)

This passage speaks of the judgment of God. Notice it is speaking of the coming of Christ. He is “the messenger of the covenant”. He is the one who would bring the judgment of God to these priests. That judgment came in AD. 70 when the temple was destroyed. Jesus gave them this judgement in a parable.

20 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. 9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. 11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. 12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. 13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. (Luke 20:1-19 KJV)

We see in this passage that the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came and confronted Jesus after addressing them He speaks a parable to the people in the presence of the chief priests, scribes, and elders. In the parable the owner of the vineyard sends his servants to the men of the vineyard to receive what is his and the men of the vineyard killed them. God had sent His prophets to Israel and they killed them. Then the owner decides to send his son. The men of the vineyard then killed his son. God sent His Son to Israel and they killed His Son. The chief priests, scribes, and elders perceived that Jesus was speaking of them. They were correct. They should have, and probably did, realize that Jesus was referencing an Old Testament passage. God spoke of a vineyard through the prophet Isaiah.

Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof,

And planted it with the choicest vine, And built a tower in the midst of it, And also made a winepress therein: And he looked that it should bring forth grapes, And it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah,

Judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard,

That I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, Brought it forth wild grapes?

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard:

I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up;

And break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

6 And I will lay it waste: It shall not be pruned, nor digged; But there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,

And the men of Judah his pleasant plant: And he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; For righteousness, but behold a cry. (Is. 5:1-7 KJV)

Here God asks the men of Jerusalem and Judah to judge between Him and His vineyard. He asks, what more could be done that He hasn’t already done? He’s at the end of His rope. So notice what He says He will do. He will take away it’s hedge, and it will be eaten up, the wall will be broken down and it will be laid waste. Then He says the His vineyard is the house of Israel and the men of Judah. This is what happened in AD. 70 when the Romans came in and destroyed the city and scattered the Jews. This is the parable that Jesus is telling and the chief priests, scribes and elders, rightly perceived that He was speaking of them.

Jesus is bring all of this to mind when He said to the scribes and Pharisees, the Law and the prophets were until John, you are they who justify yourselves before men, and when He chastises them for divorcing their wives.

After this, Jesus launches into the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. In the parable He gives us several important details was to what the parable means. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen, and he fared sumptuously. The Rich Man died after Lazarus. The Rich Man had five brothers. The Rich Man called Abraham, father. The Rich Man is tormented in the flame. The Rich man is in hades, the grave. On the other hand, Lazarus was poor, a beggar at the Rich Man’s gate. Lazarus was full of sores and sought crumbs from the Rich Man’s table. Lazarus died before the Rich Man. Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom. Lazarus is being comforted while the Rich Man is being tormented. It’s just the opposite of what they had when they were alive. All of these details are important to understanding the parable and what it is the Jesus is saying.

In the next post we'll look at the details.



The Rich Man and Lazarus (Part3)

Let’s start breaking down the parable and see what all of these details mean. Firstly, we see that the Rich Man called Abraham, father. This indicates that the Rich Man is a Jew. He’s one of Abraham’s seed, a physical seed. He was dressed in purple and fine linen. Purple was the color of kings. We can see this in Luke.

17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, 18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! 19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. (Luke 15:17 KJV)

The priests wore fine linen

27 And they made coats of fine linen of woven work for Aaron, and for his sons, 28 And a mitre of fine linen, and goodly bonnets of fine linen, and linen breeches of fine twined linen, 29 And a girdle of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, of needlework; as the Lord commanded Moses. (Ex. 39:27-29 KJV)

As we see in these two passages, the Rich Man, being dressed in purple and fine linen is indicative of a kingly priest. During the time of the Hasmonean Dynasty the Jews were ruled by a priest who functioned in the role of priest/king. Thus, Jesus dressing the Rich Man in purple and fine linen tells His audience, and us, that the Rich Man is of the tribe of Levi. Levi was the tribe of the priests. God had made a covenant with Levi.

And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart,

To give glory unto my name, saith the Lordof hosts,

I will even send ea curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:

Yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed,

And †spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts;

And ione shall take you away with it.

4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you,

That my covenant might be with Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace;

And I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me,

And was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth,

And iniquity was not found in his lips:

He walked with me in peace and equity,

And did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge,

And they should seek the law at his mouth:

For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way;

Ye have caused many to stumble at the law;

Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, According as ye have not kept my ways,

But †have been partial in the law. (Mal.2:1-9 KJV)

Notice this passage is addressed to the priests. God had made a covenant with Levi. Levi walked with God and revered Him. He was honest and faithful. However, by Malachi’s day that was no longer the case. We see in the book of Malachi that God is lambasting the priesthood. He said that the priest should speak truth and yet they were not speaking truth. God said that they had departed out of the way and were causing many to stumble at the Law. Remember what Jesus said to them?

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mat. 22:13-15 KJV)

Jesus accuses them of the very same thing that they were accused of in Malachi 2. Remember, in Chapter 3 We see God’s “messenger of the covenant” coming to bring judgement on these priests. The priests in Malachi’s day had “departed out of the way”. The priests in Jesus’ day were no better, they may have been worse. The priests in Jesus’ day were actually seeking false witness against Him so they could crucify Him. So, these priests had really, “departed out of the way”.

We’ve established that the Rich Man calling Abraham father indicates that he is a Jew and being dressed in purple and fine linen represents the priesthood. However, there’s more. We also see that the Rich Man had five brothers. Levi, the head of the Levites, the one who had the covenant with God, also had five brothers. Levi’s five brothers were, Reuben, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun, and Judah. Levi was the third son of Jacob and Leah. When the promised land was divided up among the tribes of Israel, the tribe of Levi, the Levites, were not given a land allotment. Instead, they were to serve in the temple.

What about Lazarus? Why did Jesus choose the name Lazarus? Did He just pull it out of thin air? The name Lazarus comes from the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means God help or God is my help.

16For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me. (Psalm 22:16-19 KJV)

In this prophecy of Jesus, we see the dogs encompassed Him. Remember in the parable the dogs licked Lazarus’ sores? Then He says, “haste thee to help me.” Lazarus means God help.

And I was not rebellious, Neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, And my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7For the Lord God will help me; Therefore shall I not be confounded: Therefore have I set my face like a flint, And I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; Who will contend with me? let us stand together: Who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord God will help me; Who is he that shall condemn me? (Is. 50:5-9 KJV)

In this Messianic prophecy we see verse 6 says He gave His back to the smiters and His cheeks to those who plucked out the beard. But then notice verse 7. “For the Lord God will help me” That’s the meaning of the name Lazarus. David is prophesying the words of Christ and He says, “for the Lord God will help me.” Lazarus.

The Scribes and Pharisees should have seen this connect as soon as Jesus gave the Parable.

The parable also says Lazarus was poor. Jesus was poor. There were actually people who funded his ministry.

58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. (Luke 9:58 KJV)

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (2 Cor. 8:9 KJV)

Lazarus was laid at the Rich Man’s gate. He was laid before the Rich Man. Jesus was laid before Israel. Lazarus was full of sores. Jesus was full of sores.

15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified. (Mark 15:15 KJV)

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. (Mat. 8:16-17 KJV)

This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment. 5 But he was wounded because of our acts of lawlessness and has been weakened because of our sins; upon him was the discipline of our peace; by his bruise we were healed. (Isaiah 53:4-5 Septuagint)

In the parable we see that the dogs licked Lazarus’ sores.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (Mat 15:22-28 KJV)

The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. We see that in this passage. However, notice what the woman says, ‘the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from the masters table.’ In the parable, it says that Lazarus desired to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man’s table. We know that Jesus came to the Jews. In the above passage He says He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, the Jews rejected Him. The apostle John tells us that.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not (John 1:6-11 KJV)

Here John tells us that Jesus came to His own and His own did not receive Him. The apostle Paul also said this to the Jews.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. (Acts 13:45-49 KJV)

Paul said that the word of God had to go to the Jews first, however, they rejected it, judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. The Gentiles on the other hand rejoiced in the word of the Lord, the Gospel message. They embraced Christ. The dogs licking His sores.

The passage says that Lazarus died and was carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom. The first thing to note here is that Lazarus died before the Rich Man. Jesus died before the priesthood was ended. It says that Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham’s, his father’s, bosom. The key point here is that he was carried. Jesus, too, was carried, by angels, to His Father’s bosom.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11 KJV)

In this passage it says Jesus was taken up. The word translated “taken” is the Greek word is eperthe, and it’s in the passive voice. The passive voice indicates that the subject is receiving the action of the verb. In other words, He was taken up by something or someone. He didn’t go up under His own power. This passage doesn’t say that Jesus was taken up by angels. However, it does say He will return in like manner. So, His return will be the same as His being taken up. We do know how He will return.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:29-31)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat. 25:31 KJV)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15 KJV)

In this passage it says, “with ten thousands of his saints”. The word translated saints is hagios. It literally means holy. It’s an adjective but there is no noun to modify. Therefore, it should be translated holy ones. Holy ones is actually a better translation, because when people hear the word saints, they think of Christians. However, holy ones could refer to Christians, but it could also refer to angels. As we’ve seen from the two previous passages, Jesus is returning with His angels, not Christians.

Since the angels at the tomb said that Jesus would return just as He left, we can conclude that He left with angels. Since He was taken up, we can conclude that He was carried up by angels to His Father’s bosom. John tells us that the Son is in the Father’s bosom.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

So, in the parable we have Lazarus being carried by angels to his father Abraham’s bosom and we have Jesus being carried by angels to His Father’s bosom.

If Lazarua represents Jesus in the parable, what does it mean that He is carried to Abraham’s bosom? Abraham’s bosom is mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.

2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:2-5 KJV)

From this passage we can see that being in Abraham’s bosom means to be in a relationship with Abraham. It’s a close embrace. What does this mean? If Lazarus represents Jesus, then what we are seeing in this parable is Abraham embracing his long-awaited seed. God had promised Abraham a seed back in Genesis.

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Gen. 22:16-18 KJV)

God had made a four-fold promise to Abraham. He told him He would make him a great nation, that many nations would come from him, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land of Canaan. The promise was to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed they were the seed because they were the offspring of Abraham. However, Paul corrects their misunderstanding when he says the promised seed is not the Jews, but rather is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

The Jews thought they were the recipients of the promise, but Paul says no, it was Christ. So, in the parable we see Abraham embracing the promised seed several thousand years later. On the other hand, we see the Rich Man, the physical seed of Abraham, who thought he was the recipient, suffering. Remember what Jesus said to the Jews?

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:11-12 KJV)

He said the children of the kingdom would be cast out. This is what we see in the parable. We see Lazarus being accepted and comforted while the Rich Man, “children of the kingdom”, is cast out and suffering.
 
@KingJ

Part 4

Here's the 4th and final part of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Then the Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus with water to cool his tongue. Abraham reminds him that previously he had good things and Lazarus did not. Now things are reversed. But what is this flame that is torturing the Rich Man? We see that the Rich Man is in hades. hades is the grave. So, he’s suffering in flames in hades. This is translated hell in some Bible, but that is a poor translation and causes a lot of confusion. The term is literally hades. There are three words translated hell in the King James Bible. They are, hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Tartarus is used of angels so we can set that one aside. That leaves hades and Gehenna. Hades is often translated as the grave. Gehenna is the place where Jesus said the wicked would burn. In the passage we looked at earlier where Jesus said the Pharisees searched for proselytes and made them two-fold more a child of hell, He used the word Gehenna. In Mark He says,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:43-44 KJV)

Hell, in this passage is the word Gehenna. This is where the wicked and sinners will burn. So why does the parable have the Rich Man suffering in fire in hades? There are only two places in Scripture that speak of fire in hades. The Scribes and the Pharisees would be well acquainted with what Jesus was referring to. One mention is here in Jesus’ parable. The other is in the Song of Moses. This is a song that God gave to Moses to teach to the children of Israel. It’s a song about Israel’s turning away from God in the latter times.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. 26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: (Deut. 32:15-26 KJV)

The apostle Paul quotes verse 21 and applies it to his day. So, we know the time frame of this judgment is in the days of Jesus and the apostles.

Jeshurun is another name for Israel. In this song they’ve turned from God and are worshipping idols. Notice in verse 22 it says, “for a fire is kindled in mine anger and shall burn to the lowest hell”. The word translated hell is the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades. The scribes and Pharisees would be familiar with this passage and should have easily made the connection that Jesus was making. The Rich Man, suffering in flames in hades is suffer the wrath of God we see in this passage. It is the fire kindled in God’s anger that shall burn to the lowest hades. This is the what Jesus is referring to when He speaks of the Rich Man being in torment in hades.

He says they are unmindful and have forgotten the God that made them. But notice what He says in verse 20, “I will hide my face from them”. That is exactly what happened in AD. 70. When God’s presence left the temple, the Jews saw Him no more.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Mat 27:50-51 KJV)

Notice here that when Jesus died the veil in the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. What is the significance of this? The veil is what separated the Holy of Holies. This was the most holy place in the temple and where God’s presence was. In the tabernacle that God had Moses make, in the holiest place, the holy of holies, was the Ark of the covenant and the tablets of stone. No one could enter into it except the high priest, once a year, on the day of atonement. In the temple of Jesus’ day there was also the holy of holies. And, as with the tabernacle, no one could enter it except the high priest, once a year, on the day of atonement. It was so holy that legend has it that the Jews would tie a rope around the leg of the high priest so that if he did something wrong and was struck dead in the there they could pull his body out with the rope. That’s how holy it was. It was where God met with His people. Now, consider that the veil is torn in half from top to bottom. That meant that people could look into the holy of holies. This is indicative of God leaving His temple. He left His temple previously as recorded by Ezekiel in chapters 9 and 10. God was about to bring judgment on Jerusalem and Ezekiel describes seeing God leave the temple. When the Jews killed God’s son, they cemented the judgment that would come in AD 70. God left His temple and it would shortly be destroyed. God, as He said in Deuteronomy 32, hid His face from Israel and they have not seen it even to this day.

Then in the parable we find these words.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:26 KJV)

We see there’s a great gulf between Abraham and the Rich Man that cannot be crossed. No one can give the Rich Man relief from his suffering. What is this great gulf. The priesthood is suffering, God has exiled the priesthood, and it is suffering His wrath. I would submit that this gulf is the period of time that the priesthood suffers God’s anger. This time period can be determined from Leviticus 26. This time period is also spoken of by Jesus. He calls it, “the times of the Gentiles.”

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24 KJV)

In this passage Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and how it will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. It was trodden down in AD. 70 and it’s still in that state today. I’d submit that this is the great gulf that cannot be crossed which is why the priesthood, the Rich Man, cannot get relief. This time period will be fulfilled just as God has determined.

Then the Rich Man pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers, so they don’t end up in the same place of torment. Abraham says no, they have Moses and the Prophets. They had the information they needed to avoid the judgement, but they would not listen. The Rich Man then says if one rose from the dead and went to them they would repent. Abraham says if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets they won’t listen even if one rises from the dead. We actually see that in Scripture. When Jesus raised His friend Lazarus from the dead, did the Scribes and Pharisees believe? No, in fact they wanted to kill Lazarus too.

To sum up, all of these details are important to the parable. I believe the parallels between the Rich Man and the priesthood and Jesus and Lazarus are too many to write off as coincidence. Jesus is taking several Old Testament passages and prophecies and weaving them together into a story about the judgment that is coming to Jerusalem. Jesus had said the Law and the prophets were until John. Then we see the Rich Man, the priesthood, in hades, in the grave. We see Lazarus, Jesus, the long-promised seed being comforted in Abraham’s bosom and the physical seed, the Rich Man, cast out. We see both covenants in this parable. In Jesus the New and in the priesthood, the Old.
 
@Butch5 We are discussing the trinity here, Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.

There's no reason to go back and read your posts. Your arguments are based on false premises.

In your mind you think that but you have not proven it.

If anyone is causing Christians to stumble it's you, my friend.

How so, please explain in detail.

I have explained why you are and have gone into detail. I am not incriminating God as evil, you are. Meditate on that fact.

I don't know of a single denomination in Christendom that claims God punished Himself. It seems you're on an island alone on this one. Again, you charge people with avoidance and then avoid the evidence yourself. If God punished Himself who raised Him from the dead?

1 + 1 = 2.

God the Father sends God the Son to the cross.

If you or anyone thinks that is not God punishing Himself than I have no words. Clearly grey matter between ears has burnt out and no longer working. The scriptures I provided to you in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God? also stated quite clearly that God punished Jesus.

From what I can gather here you've got a belief system that is somewhere between Trinitarianism and Modalism. Again, you're alone on an Island.

Incorrect.

The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died for sin. However, according to you God died for sins.

Well yes, duh?

This makes Jesus and God one and the same which is Modalism.

Incorrect. You are playing with words, not me.

God is one and He is also three.

Nothing that I've posted indicates that God is evil. That claim is based on your misunderstanding of Scripture.

No, it's not.

Go and ask one million people with working brains if they think the below is evidence of a good or evil prison warden.

''If a warden puts a nun in a prison with a rapist and she gets raped. Is the warden guilty of evil? Yes or No?''

Hint, if you answer 'No', you need to put yourself in the nun's shoes. You are clearly not using that grey matter between your ears. This is a 'duh' fact.

I've stated plainly that God did not punish Jesus.

And you have not backed it up.

How is sending a creation who is not guilty of any sin to the cross not punishment? This is yet another 'duh' fact. Butch, really? Absolutely unbelievable!

So, that nullifies your statement about God punishing one in place of another being evil. It's irrelevant because as I said, God did not punish Jesus. That you see it as punishment is problematic and shows that you hold to the doctrine of Penal Atonement., which is another UNBIBLICAL doctrine.

Penal atonement is simply penalty atoned by the punishment Jesus endured. You are trying to create a rabbit trail here and hoping readers are braindead.

A few posts ago I presented the Ransom Atonement understanding which is what the Scriptures teach. But you called the Scriptural doctrine a "Croc." So, who's causing people to stumble?


Oh, my word. Yet another rabbit trail you are trying to create. Ransom atonement simply means that the punishment that Jesus endured was Him being a ransom our sin. We were 'bought' back from 'satan'.

I have this feeling you are trying to be clever raising theories that are neither here nor there. Another form of evasion.

So, if you want to accusing people of dancing you should stand still yourself.

I have accused your belief of being evil. You have yet to directly respond to it.

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Show me where you have directly responded to these accusations.

Your one response of ''if God punished Himself that would also be evil'' does not hold any water, as it is not evil for our Creator to accept this suffering for His creation. It is part and parcel of His creation. A true sacrifice from Him. Just like a woman wanting a child commits to pain in childbirth. This is like a 'duh' fact Butch, please try better.

You come in here and accuse people of not knowing the Scriptures based on your misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Just because you believe a doctrine doesn't' make that doctrine true. Yet, when challenged about said doctrine you completely ignore it. That's not how debates work.

Where did I ignore?


You made an accusation that not holding the Trinity doctrine portrays God as evil for punishing one person for the sins of another.

Yes, correct. Again, another 'duh' fact. Maybe if you were the one being punished it would be more obvious to you?

Then you accused me of that position.

Yes, you teach it by not teaching the trinity.

However, I refuted your accusation by stating that God did to punish Jesus.

Where?

Then I took the time to go to the Scriptures and early Christian history to prove that point, which you simply blew off.

Where?

So, if you want to make accusations you need to prove that the premise of your argument is valid.

Imagine thinking punishing someone for sins they did not commit is not evil. If you think that is not valid, I question your intellect.

So, please go to the Scriptures and show us where the Scriptures teach that God punished Himself.

I gave you the scripture in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.

Go to the Scriptures and show us where they teach the doctrine of Penal Atonement. Because if you can't prove these two doctrines from Scripture, you're just blowing smoke. And that my friend is what I have not spent the time to address your arguments. Because you can't prove those two doctrines. Thus your arguments are nothing more that arbitrary and opinions.

Rabbit trail and evasion by trying to sound smart and or maybe for some reason thinking either penal atonement or ransom atonement suggest Jesus was not punished. They both do. You are evading, creating a rabbit trail, moving the goal posts and also discussing the trinity in a non-trinity thread.

------------------

Please try focus Butch, I have made a simple accusation and expect a simple answer. After you face the reality of your belief, we can go back to interrogating scriptures.

Explain how you are not guilty of potentially stumbling young believers with the below two theories you push. What context am I missing?

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Go, floor is yours..............
 
@Butch5 We are discussing the trinity here, Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.



In your mind you think that but you have not proven it.



How so, please explain in detail.

I have explained why you are and have gone into detail. I am not incriminating God as evil, you are. Meditate on that fact.



1 + 1 = 2.

God the Father sends God the Son to the cross.

If you or anyone thinks that is not God punishing Himself than I have no words. Clearly grey matter between ears has burnt out and no longer working. The scriptures I provided to you in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God? also stated quite clearly that God punished Jesus.



Incorrect.



Well yes, duh?



Incorrect. You are playing with words, not me.

God is one and He is also three.



No, it's not.

Go and ask one million people with working brains if they think the below is evidence of a good or evil prison warden.

''If a warden puts a nun in a prison with a rapist and she gets raped. Is the warden guilty of evil? Yes or No?''

Hint, if you answer 'No', you need to put yourself in the nun's shoes. You are clearly not using that grey matter between your ears. This is a 'duh' fact.



And you have not backed it up.

How is sending a creation who is not guilty of any sin to the cross not punishment? This is yet another 'duh' fact. Butch, really? Absolutely unbelievable!



Penal atonement is simply penalty atoned by the punishment Jesus endured. You are trying to create a rabbit trail here and hoping readers are braindead.




Oh, my word. Yet another rabbit trail you are trying to create. Ransom atonement simply means that the punishment that Jesus endured was Him being a ransom our sin. We were 'bought' back from 'satan'.

I have this feeling you are trying to be clever raising theories that are neither here nor there. Another form of evasion.



I have accused your belief of being evil. You have yet to directly respond to it.

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Show me where you have directly responded to these accusations.

Your one response of ''if God punished Himself that would also be evil'' does not hold any water, as it is not evil for our Creator to accept this suffering for His creation. It is part and parcel of His creation. A true sacrifice from Him. Just like a woman wanting a child commits to pain in childbirth. This is like a 'duh' fact Butch, please try better.



Where did I ignore?




Yes, correct. Again, another 'duh' fact. Maybe if you were the one being punished it would be more obvious to you?



Yes, you teach it by not teaching the trinity.



Where?



Where?



Imagine thinking punishing someone for sins they did not commit is not evil. If you think that is not valid, I question your intellect.



I gave you the scripture in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.



Rabbit trail and evasion by trying to sound smart and or maybe for some reason thinking either penal atonement or ransom atonement suggest Jesus was not punished. They both do. You are evading, creating a rabbit trail, moving the goal posts and also discussing the trinity in a non-trinity thread.

------------------

Please try focus Butch, I have made a simple accusation and expect a simple answer. After you face the reality of your belief, we can go back to interrogating scriptures.

Explain how you are not guilty of potentially stumbling young believers with the below two theories you push. What context am I missing?

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Go, floor is yours..............
Look Dude, I've addressed all of your nonsense. You ask the same questions over and over even after they have been answered. You contradict yourself; God is one and God is three. Which is it? You try to draw doctrines based on your reasoning, however, that reasoning is flawed and as such so are the doctrines based on it. Your doctrine that not believing in the Trinity portrays God as evil Is a Non sequitur, And I've shown why. That you just dismiss it doesn't mean I haven't shown why.

This one is classic. You said, "You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical."

No, I teach young believers the Biblical hope. You teach them the Gnostic and Greek Philosophical hope. Here, I'll post this again so it can ignored.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. King James Version, Jn 8:21–23.

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him. 33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34 hYe shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. 35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? 36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? Holy Bible: King James Version, Jn 7:32–36.

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you The Holy Bible: King James Version, Jn 13:31–33.

As He said to the Jews, "Whither I go, ye CANNOT COME: so now I say to YOU.

If the disciple and Jews couldn't go what makes you think you can? Are better than the disciples? Are you better than David?

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. The Holy Bible: King James Version, Ac 2:34–35.

So, David doesn't get to go, but you do? Really? Do you really expect me to buy that? Seriously?

How is it that the Jews can't go, the disciples can't go, David can't go, but everyone else can? Seriously?

So, you're saying that I'm causing young people to stumble yet we see here clearly that the Scriptures say they don't go. On the other hand, you're teaching them Greek Philosophical and Gnostic doctrines telling them they can go. Who is stumbling believers?
 
@Butch5 We are discussing the trinity here, Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.



In your mind you think that but you have not proven it.



How so, please explain in detail.

I have explained why you are and have gone into detail. I am not incriminating God as evil, you are. Meditate on that fact.



1 + 1 = 2.

God the Father sends God the Son to the cross.

If you or anyone thinks that is not God punishing Himself than I have no words. Clearly grey matter between ears has burnt out and no longer working. The scriptures I provided to you in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God? also stated quite clearly that God punished Jesus.



Incorrect.



Well yes, duh?



Incorrect. You are playing with words, not me.

God is one and He is also three.



No, it's not.

Go and ask one million people with working brains if they think the below is evidence of a good or evil prison warden.

''If a warden puts a nun in a prison with a rapist and she gets raped. Is the warden guilty of evil? Yes or No?''

Hint, if you answer 'No', you need to put yourself in the nun's shoes. You are clearly not using that grey matter between your ears. This is a 'duh' fact.



And you have not backed it up.

How is sending a creation who is not guilty of any sin to the cross not punishment? This is yet another 'duh' fact. Butch, really? Absolutely unbelievable!



Penal atonement is simply penalty atoned by the punishment Jesus endured. You are trying to create a rabbit trail here and hoping readers are braindead.




Oh, my word. Yet another rabbit trail you are trying to create. Ransom atonement simply means that the punishment that Jesus endured was Him being a ransom our sin. We were 'bought' back from 'satan'.

I have this feeling you are trying to be clever raising theories that are neither here nor there. Another form of evasion.



I have accused your belief of being evil. You have yet to directly respond to it.

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Show me where you have directly responded to these accusations.

Your one response of ''if God punished Himself that would also be evil'' does not hold any water, as it is not evil for our Creator to accept this suffering for His creation. It is part and parcel of His creation. A true sacrifice from Him. Just like a woman wanting a child commits to pain in childbirth. This is like a 'duh' fact Butch, please try better.



Where did I ignore?




Yes, correct. Again, another 'duh' fact. Maybe if you were the one being punished it would be more obvious to you?



Yes, you teach it by not teaching the trinity.



Where?



Where?



Imagine thinking punishing someone for sins they did not commit is not evil. If you think that is not valid, I question your intellect.



I gave you the scripture in this thread Trinity: Is Jesus really God?.



Rabbit trail and evasion by trying to sound smart and or maybe for some reason thinking either penal atonement or ransom atonement suggest Jesus was not punished. They both do. You are evading, creating a rabbit trail, moving the goal posts and also discussing the trinity in a non-trinity thread.

------------------

Please try focus Butch, I have made a simple accusation and expect a simple answer. After you face the reality of your belief, we can go back to interrogating scriptures.

Explain how you are not guilty of potentially stumbling young believers with the below two theories you push. What context am I missing?

1. - You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical.

2. -You teach that God sent some poor unlucky being who clearly drew the shortest straw to a cruel death for crimes He did not commit. That implies God is sadistically evil and twisted. That nonsense can stumble young believers and misrepresent a God who has no evil in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Go, floor is yours..............
 
Look Dude, I've addressed all of your nonsense. You ask the same questions over and over even after they have been answered.

You have not addressed them. As a Christian you need to properly explain how God is good, righteous and just in a given belief that you may push for whatever reason. As scripture is crystal clear that God is good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17 and just Job 34:12.

Now you are not doing that. You merely state that this is what scripture says, accept it or reject it. You cannot fail harder at your one job.

If you teach the trinity is not real, the following are the logical conclusions to draw.

A - God is unjust and therefore evil as He punished a creation for sin He did not commit.
B - For God to be good, Jesus must have suffered no pain and not have been abandoned.
C - For God to be good, Jesus must have been guilty of His own sin.

What are the other options Butch? Stop evading and type them in simple point form please.

If you were intellectually honest and a good Christian, you would acknowledge the damage a non-trinitarian belief does to Christianity. It can only but incriminate God and or Jesus. This is a 'duh' fact. Any person with a working brain will grasp this. Now you come along and just blindly push a belief that incriminates God as your simple mind can't grasp One being three. Like you can grasp God's origin? You are intellectually dishonest and are not in the slightest trying to justify God as good, righteous and just with your non-trinitarian or your 'no Christians go to heaven' attention seeking nonsense.
 
You have not addressed them. As a Christian you need to properly explain how God is good, righteous and just in a given belief that you may push for whatever reason. As scripture is crystal clear that God is good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17 and just Job 34:12

A - God is unjust and therefore evil as He punished a creation for sin He did not commit.
Maybe if your tiny Satanic mind could grasp the fact that AS JESUS IS SPIRIT HE KNEW THAT BY TRANSFERRING INTO MARY'S WOMB FOR A FEW YEARS HE WOULD BE PERMITTED TO RETURN BACK TO LIVE IN GOD'S GLORY...
But as you are stuck in some Jewish-Muslim pagan bubble and believe Jesus was just a human man who was killed by the Jews you will never understand - while at the same time you imagine when you die you will float off to heaven!

As you refuse to open a Bible there's nothing anyone can do to bring light to your own created darkness.
 
Maybe if your tiny Satanic mind could grasp the fact that AS JESUS IS SPIRIT HE KNEW THAT BY TRANSFERRING INTO MARY'S WOMB FOR A FEW YEARS HE WOULD BE PERMITTED TO RETURN BACK TO LIVE IN GOD'S GLORY...
But as you are stuck in some Jewish-Muslim pagan bubble and believe Jesus was just a human man who was killed by the Jews you will never understand - while at the same time you imagine when you die you will float off to heaven!

As you refuse to open a Bible there's nothing anyone can do to bring light to your own created darkness.

Your post made me chuckle. With this kind of discernment, I feel great knowing that you agree with Butch and not me.
 
@KingJ

Parts 2 and 3.

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Part 2)

In the last post I spoke of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. I didn’t go into much detail due to the length of the post. I need to give more detail so as to show what the parable is about. As we saw in the last post, Jesus was addressing the Scribe and the Pharisees after they had derided Him. Essentially, they were laughing at and mocking Him. This is where He turned His attention to them and says that the Law and the Prophets were until John. This is a statement about the end of the Law and the Prophets. Their time as rulers was coming to an end. He also accused them of justifying themselves before men, being Lovers of money, and wrongfully divorcing their wives. The book of Malachi is about judgment of Israel. it's aimed primarily at the priesthood.

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:

If then I be a father, where is mine honour?

And if I be a master, where is my fear?

Saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name.

And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar;

And ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee?

In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil?

And if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?

Offer it now unto thy governor;

Will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 1:6-8 KJV)

In this passage we see the priests justifying themselves.

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me.

But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?

In tithes and offerings.

9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me,

Even this whole nation.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,

That there may be meat in mine house,

And prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts,

If I will not open you the windows of heaven,

And pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Here we have Lovers of money.

Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, Against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: Yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek ta godly seed. Therefore, take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: For one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: Therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, And he delighteth in them; Or, Where is the God of judgment? (Mal 2:14-17 KJV)

After asking, “where is the judgment of God,” the Lord says,

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: And the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:

Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: And he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

(Mal 3:1-3 KJV)

This passage speaks of the judgment of God. Notice it is speaking of the coming of Christ. He is “the messenger of the covenant”. He is the one who would bring the judgment of God to these priests. That judgment came in AD. 70 when the temple was destroyed. Jesus gave them this judgement in a parable.

20 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders, 2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority? 3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me: 4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? 5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? 6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. 7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was. 8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. 9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. 11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. 12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. 13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. (Luke 20:1-19 KJV)

We see in this passage that the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came and confronted Jesus after addressing them He speaks a parable to the people in the presence of the chief priests, scribes, and elders. In the parable the owner of the vineyard sends his servants to the men of the vineyard to receive what is his and the men of the vineyard killed them. God had sent His prophets to Israel and they killed them. Then the owner decides to send his son. The men of the vineyard then killed his son. God sent His Son to Israel and they killed His Son. The chief priests, scribes, and elders perceived that Jesus was speaking of them. They were correct. They should have, and probably did, realize that Jesus was referencing an Old Testament passage. God spoke of a vineyard through the prophet Isaiah.

Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof,

And planted it with the choicest vine, And built a tower in the midst of it, And also made a winepress therein: And he looked that it should bring forth grapes, And it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah,

Judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard,

That I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, Brought it forth wild grapes?

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard:

I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up;

And break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

6 And I will lay it waste: It shall not be pruned, nor digged; But there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,

And the men of Judah his pleasant plant: And he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; For righteousness, but behold a cry. (Is. 5:1-7 KJV)

Here God asks the men of Jerusalem and Judah to judge between Him and His vineyard. He asks, what more could be done that He hasn’t already done? He’s at the end of His rope. So notice what He says He will do. He will take away it’s hedge, and it will be eaten up, the wall will be broken down and it will be laid waste. Then He says the His vineyard is the house of Israel and the men of Judah. This is what happened in AD. 70 when the Romans came in and destroyed the city and scattered the Jews. This is the parable that Jesus is telling and the chief priests, scribes and elders, rightly perceived that He was speaking of them.

Jesus is bring all of this to mind when He said to the scribes and Pharisees, the Law and the prophets were until John, you are they who justify yourselves before men, and when He chastises them for divorcing their wives.

After this, Jesus launches into the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. In the parable He gives us several important details was to what the parable means. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen, and he fared sumptuously. The Rich Man died after Lazarus. The Rich Man had five brothers. The Rich Man called Abraham, father. The Rich Man is tormented in the flame. The Rich man is in hades, the grave. On the other hand, Lazarus was poor, a beggar at the Rich Man’s gate. Lazarus was full of sores and sought crumbs from the Rich Man’s table. Lazarus died before the Rich Man. Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom. Lazarus is being comforted while the Rich Man is being tormented. It’s just the opposite of what they had when they were alive. All of these details are important to understanding the parable and what it is the Jesus is saying.

In the next post we'll look at the details.



The Rich Man and Lazarus (Part3)

Let’s start breaking down the parable and see what all of these details mean. Firstly, we see that the Rich Man called Abraham, father. This indicates that the Rich Man is a Jew. He’s one of Abraham’s seed, a physical seed. He was dressed in purple and fine linen. Purple was the color of kings. We can see this in Luke.

17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, 18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! 19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. 20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. (Luke 15:17 KJV)

The priests wore fine linen

27 And they made coats of fine linen of woven work for Aaron, and for his sons, 28 And a mitre of fine linen, and goodly bonnets of fine linen, and linen breeches of fine twined linen, 29 And a girdle of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, of needlework; as the Lord commanded Moses. (Ex. 39:27-29 KJV)

As we see in these two passages, the Rich Man, being dressed in purple and fine linen is indicative of a kingly priest. During the time of the Hasmonean Dynasty the Jews were ruled by a priest who functioned in the role of priest/king. Thus, Jesus dressing the Rich Man in purple and fine linen tells His audience, and us, that the Rich Man is of the tribe of Levi. Levi was the tribe of the priests. God had made a covenant with Levi.

And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart,

To give glory unto my name, saith the Lordof hosts,

I will even send ea curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:

Yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed,

And †spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts;

And ione shall take you away with it.

4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you,

That my covenant might be with Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace;

And I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me,

And was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth,

And iniquity was not found in his lips:

He walked with me in peace and equity,

And did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge,

And they should seek the law at his mouth:

For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way;

Ye have caused many to stumble at the law;

Ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, According as ye have not kept my ways,

But †have been partial in the law. (Mal.2:1-9 KJV)

Notice this passage is addressed to the priests. God had made a covenant with Levi. Levi walked with God and revered Him. He was honest and faithful. However, by Malachi’s day that was no longer the case. We see in the book of Malachi that God is lambasting the priesthood. He said that the priest should speak truth and yet they were not speaking truth. God said that they had departed out of the way and were causing many to stumble at the Law. Remember what Jesus said to them?

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mat. 22:13-15 KJV)

Jesus accuses them of the very same thing that they were accused of in Malachi 2. Remember, in Chapter 3 We see God’s “messenger of the covenant” coming to bring judgement on these priests. The priests in Malachi’s day had “departed out of the way”. The priests in Jesus’ day were no better, they may have been worse. The priests in Jesus’ day were actually seeking false witness against Him so they could crucify Him. So, these priests had really, “departed out of the way”.

We’ve established that the Rich Man calling Abraham father indicates that he is a Jew and being dressed in purple and fine linen represents the priesthood. However, there’s more. We also see that the Rich Man had five brothers. Levi, the head of the Levites, the one who had the covenant with God, also had five brothers. Levi’s five brothers were, Reuben, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun, and Judah. Levi was the third son of Jacob and Leah. When the promised land was divided up among the tribes of Israel, the tribe of Levi, the Levites, were not given a land allotment. Instead, they were to serve in the temple.

What about Lazarus? Why did Jesus choose the name Lazarus? Did He just pull it out of thin air? The name Lazarus comes from the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means God help or God is my help.

16For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me. (Psalm 22:16-19 KJV)

In this prophecy of Jesus, we see the dogs encompassed Him. Remember in the parable the dogs licked Lazarus’ sores? Then He says, “haste thee to help me.” Lazarus means God help.

And I was not rebellious, Neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, And my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7For the Lord God will help me; Therefore shall I not be confounded: Therefore have I set my face like a flint, And I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; Who will contend with me? let us stand together: Who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord God will help me; Who is he that shall condemn me? (Is. 50:5-9 KJV)

In this Messianic prophecy we see verse 6 says He gave His back to the smiters and His cheeks to those who plucked out the beard. But then notice verse 7. “For the Lord God will help me” That’s the meaning of the name Lazarus. David is prophesying the words of Christ and He says, “for the Lord God will help me.” Lazarus.

The Scribes and Pharisees should have seen this connect as soon as Jesus gave the Parable.

The parable also says Lazarus was poor. Jesus was poor. There were actually people who funded his ministry.

58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. (Luke 9:58 KJV)

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (2 Cor. 8:9 KJV)

Lazarus was laid at the Rich Man’s gate. He was laid before the Rich Man. Jesus was laid before Israel. Lazarus was full of sores. Jesus was full of sores.

15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified. (Mark 15:15 KJV)

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. (Mat. 8:16-17 KJV)

This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment. 5 But he was wounded because of our acts of lawlessness and has been weakened because of our sins; upon him was the discipline of our peace; by his bruise we were healed. (Isaiah 53:4-5 Septuagint)

In the parable we see that the dogs licked Lazarus’ sores.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (Mat 15:22-28 KJV)

The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. We see that in this passage. However, notice what the woman says, ‘the dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from the masters table.’ In the parable, it says that Lazarus desired to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man’s table. We know that Jesus came to the Jews. In the above passage He says He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, the Jews rejected Him. The apostle John tells us that.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not (John 1:6-11 KJV)

Here John tells us that Jesus came to His own and His own did not receive Him. The apostle Paul also said this to the Jews.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. (Acts 13:45-49 KJV)

Paul said that the word of God had to go to the Jews first, however, they rejected it, judging themselves unworthy of eternal life. The Gentiles on the other hand rejoiced in the word of the Lord, the Gospel message. They embraced Christ. The dogs licking His sores.

The passage says that Lazarus died and was carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom. The first thing to note here is that Lazarus died before the Rich Man. Jesus died before the priesthood was ended. It says that Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham’s, his father’s, bosom. The key point here is that he was carried. Jesus, too, was carried, by angels, to His Father’s bosom.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11 KJV)

In this passage it says Jesus was taken up. The word translated “taken” is the Greek word is eperthe, and it’s in the passive voice. The passive voice indicates that the subject is receiving the action of the verb. In other words, He was taken up by something or someone. He didn’t go up under His own power. This passage doesn’t say that Jesus was taken up by angels. However, it does say He will return in like manner. So, His return will be the same as His being taken up. We do know how He will return.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:29-31)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat. 25:31 KJV)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15 KJV)

In this passage it says, “with ten thousands of his saints”. The word translated saints is hagios. It literally means holy. It’s an adjective but there is no noun to modify. Therefore, it should be translated holy ones. Holy ones is actually a better translation, because when people hear the word saints, they think of Christians. However, holy ones could refer to Christians, but it could also refer to angels. As we’ve seen from the two previous passages, Jesus is returning with His angels, not Christians.

Since the angels at the tomb said that Jesus would return just as He left, we can conclude that He left with angels. Since He was taken up, we can conclude that He was carried up by angels to His Father’s bosom. John tells us that the Son is in the Father’s bosom.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

So, in the parable we have Lazarus being carried by angels to his father Abraham’s bosom and we have Jesus being carried by angels to His Father’s bosom.

If Lazarua represents Jesus in the parable, what does it mean that He is carried to Abraham’s bosom? Abraham’s bosom is mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.

2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the Lord judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:2-5 KJV)

From this passage we can see that being in Abraham’s bosom means to be in a relationship with Abraham. It’s a close embrace. What does this mean? If Lazarus represents Jesus, then what we are seeing in this parable is Abraham embracing his long-awaited seed. God had promised Abraham a seed back in Genesis.

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Gen. 22:16-18 KJV)

God had made a four-fold promise to Abraham. He told him He would make him a great nation, that many nations would come from him, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land of Canaan. The promise was to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed they were the seed because they were the offspring of Abraham. However, Paul corrects their misunderstanding when he says the promised seed is not the Jews, but rather is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

The Jews thought they were the recipients of the promise, but Paul says no, it was Christ. So, in the parable we see Abraham embracing the promised seed several thousand years later. On the other hand, we see the Rich Man, the physical seed of Abraham, who thought he was the recipient, suffering. Remember what Jesus said to the Jews?

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:11-12 KJV)

He said the children of the kingdom would be cast out. This is what we see in the parable. We see Lazarus being accepted and comforted while the Rich Man, “children of the kingdom”, is cast out and suffering.

I have no words for how ignorant you have to be to see Luke 16 as a parable.

You seem to have missed the point I made about how you in no way shape or form accept anything Jesus said. It does not feature anywhere in your belief system.

Now the following are logical and undeniable facts that any person on the planet with a working brain will concede to.

1. Actual names of two persons are given, Lazarus and Abraham. This is unlike any parable from Jesus.

2. Jesus goes into detail on a conversation that took place between a rich man and Abraham. Describing exactly what he was enduring. There is a lot of detail provided. This is unlike any parable.

3. Luke 16:19-31 is the only passage in the entirety of scripture that describes a suffering one can expect in fire. It was for this reason very important for Jesus to tell us this.

To call Luke 16:19-31 a parable shows wilful ignorance. As simple as that.
 
I have no words for how ignorant you have to be to see Luke 16 as a parable.

To call Luke 16:19-31 a parable shows wilful ignorance. As simple as that.
I have no words for how ignorant you have to be to see Luke 16 as reality.
You call Jesus a liar as he said no one had gone to heaven.
But as I constantly say: Satan loves people like you.
 
This one is classic. You said, "You teach that children of God who lay their lives down for Him do not and will not ever be with Him in His home, heaven. That nonsense can stumble young believers and is 100% ignorant and nonsensical." No, I teach young believers the Biblical hope. You teach them the Gnostic and Greek Philosophical hope. Here, I'll post this again so it can ignored.

Butch, I am trying to think why someone would push such nonsense. The only three things I can think of are:

1. Attention seeking
2. Wish to stumble young believers
3. Brain not working properly

Which one are you? Is there another?

Teaching as fact that we will not be in heaven when scripture says just Phil 3:20 (and the others I quoted) is truly shocking.

Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven.


21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. King James Version, Jn 8:21–23.

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him. 33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34 hYe shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. 35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? 36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? Holy Bible: King James Version, Jn 7:32–36.

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you The Holy Bible: King James Version, Jn 13:31–33.

As He said to the Jews, "Whither I go, ye CANNOT COME: so now I say to YOU.

If the disciple and Jews couldn't go what makes you think you can? Are better than the disciples? Are you better than David?

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. The Holy Bible: King James Version, Ac 2:34–35.

So, David doesn't get to go, but you do? Really? Do you really expect me to buy that? Seriously?

How is it that the Jews can't go, the disciples can't go, David can't go, but everyone else can? Seriously?

So, you're saying that I'm causing young people to stumble yet we see here clearly that the Scriptures say they don't go. On the other hand, you're teaching them Greek Philosophical and Gnostic doctrines telling them they can go. Who is stumbling believers?

Cherry picking and nitpicking of scripture to create a nonsensical theory that seems to have at its root a demonic attack on young believers who give their lives to Jesus.

Imagine telling a woman who marries their husband that they will not go home to the husband's house. This is extremely ignorant and idiotic. Fact.
 
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