Trinity: Is Jesus really God?

[Butch5]

@Butch5 Per my post 42 and 46, do you now concede to the fact that if you believe Jesus is not God, that then God HAS to be evil?

No.

If not, please explain how a God who punishes someone other than Himself for sins they did not commit is not unjust. God can easily be defined as just if He 'punishes' Himself. That would simply be like a woman committing to pain in childbirth as she wants children.

You really like to ignore and dance around facts. You remind me 100% of the atheists I discuss with. So elusive!

Not to be rude, but I'm wondering if we're on the same planet. I haven't avoided anything you've said. The problem you have with this scenario you've presented is that it's based on the doctrine of Penal Substitution, which is not a Biblical doctrine. You've used that doctrine as a base for this scenario. However, this is starting off with a false premise. God didn't punish Jesus. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus gave His life as a ransom for man. A ransom is not a punishment. In this passage Paul speaks volumes.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 2:4–6.

Firstly, Paul says there is one God. Then he says there is one mediator between God and men. That mediator is THE MAN Jesus Christ. Paul has clearly distinguished three entities here, God, the Mediator (Jesus) and men. Notice Paul didn't say there is one mediator, the God Man, or the God, Jesus Christ. He said, "the man, Jesus Christ."

Notice also that Paul said, the man Jesus Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. He didn't say God punished the man Jesus Christ. If Jesus is the ransom, then there is one who pays the ransom and one who receives the payment of the ransom. God surely didn't pay a ransom to Himself. That's not how it works. So, who was the ransom paid to? It was paid to Satan. What are the wages of sin?

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christian Standard Bible, Ro 6:22–23.

The wages of sin is death. Notice Paul didn't say the punishment for sin is death. Wages are something one earns. Man earns death by sinning. That is what he deserves for sinning. Who is it that has the power of death?

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

King James Version, Heb 2:14–15.

All mankind is subject to death. Who has that power? Satan. Christ came to destroy Satan. That's why eternal life, which Adam had before he sinned, is obtained through Christ.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:18–19.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

King James Version, Col 1:11–14.

People who are not Christians are under the power of darkness. It's because of sin, the original sin.


Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 4, Chapter 1

CHAP. I.—CHRIST ALONE IS ABLE TO TEACH DIVINE THINGS, AND TO REDEEM US: HE, THE SAME, TOOK FLESH OF THE VIRGIN MARY, NOT MERELY IN APPEARANCE, BUT ACTUALLY, BY THE OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, IN ORDER TO RENOVATE US. STRICTURES ON THE CONCEITS OF VALENTINUS AND EBION.

1. FOR in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We—who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation—have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God,—all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.

Irenaeus of Lyons, “Irenæus against Heresies,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 526–527.

This is the original Christian understanding of the Atonement. This was the view for a thousand years before it was corrupted by Anslem of Canterbury. As you can see man was redeemed from "that apostasy." That apostasy was Satan. Jesus laid down his life as a ransom, paid to Satan, to redeem mankind. So, it was Satan, not God, that killed Jesus.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

King James Version, 1 Co 2:6–8.

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

King James Version, Mt 20:28.

12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. 13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: He is an unwise son; For he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. 14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave;I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: Repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. 15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, An east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, And his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: He shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

King James Version, Ho 13:12–15.

Paul references this passage when talking about the Resurrection.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and pthis mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O tgrave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

King James Version,1 Co 15:54–57.

I could continue on...

So, you see. God did not punish Jesus. So, your whole question is a moot point.

Another point on your question that doesn't make sense is what point is there in punishing oneself? God could easily simply forgive man's sins. That's a whole other argument. The Penal Atonement model doesn't allow for forgiveness.

But there's still another problem with the scenario you presented. You said, "God can easily be defined as just if He 'punishes' Himself." According to the Trinity doctrine There are three distinct persons. According to the doctrine The Father punished the Son. What you are presenting is more along the lines of Modalism. That's the idea that there is one God who manifests Himself as three personalities. Sometimes he's the father, sometimes the son and so on. When you said he punishes himself, you are speaking of one individual. The word he is a singular pronoun and cannot refer to more than one person. Thus, the language would force your argument into the Modalist position.

I would love to meet you in a formal debate.

I'm ready whenever you are. Maybe they have a debate forum here. Some forums do.

 

[KingJ]

No.

Not to be rude, but I'm wondering if we're on the same planet. I haven't avoided anything you've said. The problem you have with this scenario you've presented is that it's based on the doctrine of Penal Substitution, which is not a Biblical doctrine. You've used that doctrine as a base for this scenario. However, this is starting off with a false premise. God didn't punish Jesus. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus gave His life as a ransom for man. A ransom is not a punishment. In this passage Paul speaks volumes.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 2:4–6.

Firstly, Paul says there is one God. Then he says there is one mediator between God and men. That mediator is THE MAN Jesus Christ. Paul has clearly distinguished three entities here, God, the Mediator (Jesus) and men. Notice Paul didn't say there is one mediator, the God Man, or the God, Jesus Christ. He said, "the man, Jesus Christ."

Notice also that Paul said, the man Jesus Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. He didn't say God punished the man Jesus Christ. If Jesus is the ransom, then there is one who pays the ransom and one who receives the payment of the ransom. God surely didn't pay a ransom to Himself. That's not how it works. So, who was the ransom paid to? It was paid to Satan. What are the wages of sin?

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christian Standard Bible, Ro 6:22–23.

The wages of sin is death. Notice Paul didn't say the punishment for sin is death. Wages are something one earns. Man earns death by sinning. That is what he deserves for sinning. Who is it that has the power of death?

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

King James Version, Heb 2:14–15.

All mankind is subject to death. Who has that power? Satan. Christ came to destroy Satan. That's why eternal life, which Adam had before he sinned, is obtained through Christ.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:18–19.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

King James Version, Col 1:11–14.

People who are not Christians are under the power of darkness. It's because of sin, the original sin.


Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 4, Chapter 1

CHAP. I.—CHRIST ALONE IS ABLE TO TEACH DIVINE THINGS, AND TO REDEEM US: HE, THE SAME, TOOK FLESH OF THE VIRGIN MARY, NOT MERELY IN APPEARANCE, BUT ACTUALLY, BY THE OPERATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, IN ORDER TO RENOVATE US. STRICTURES ON THE CONCEITS OF VALENTINUS AND EBION.

1. FOR in no other way could we have learned the things of God, unless our Master, existing as the Word, had become man. For no other being had the power of revealing to us the things of the Father, except His own proper Word. For what other person “knew the mind of the Lord,” or who else “has become His counsellor?” Again, we could have learned in no other way than by seeing our Teacher, and hearing His voice with our own ears, that, having become imitators of His works as well as doers of His words, we may have communion with Him, receiving increase from the perfect One, and from Him who is prior to all creation. We—who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation—have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity. And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction. Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God,—all the doctrines of the heretics fall to ruin.

Irenaeus of Lyons, “Irenæus against Heresies,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 526–527.

This is the original Christian understanding of the Atonement. This was the view for a thousand years before it was corrupted by Anslem of Canterbury. As you can see man was redeemed from "that apostasy." That apostasy was Satan. Jesus laid down his life as a ransom, paid to Satan, to redeem mankind. So, it was Satan, not God, that killed Jesus.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

King James Version, 1 Co 2:6–8.

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

King James Version, Mt 20:28.

12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. 13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: He is an unwise son; For he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. 14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave;I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: Repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. 15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, An east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, And his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: He shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

King James Version, Ho 13:12–15.

Paul references this passage when talking about the Resurrection.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and pthis mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O tgrave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

King James Version,1 Co 15:54–57.

I could continue on...

So, you see. God did not punish Jesus. So, your whole question is a moot point.

Another point on your question that doesn't make sense is what point is there in punishing oneself? God could easily simply forgive man's sins. That's a whole other argument. The Penal Atonement model doesn't allow for forgiveness.

But there's still another problem with the scenario you presented. You said, "God can easily be defined as just if He 'punishes' Himself." According to the Trinity doctrine There are three distinct persons. According to the doctrine The Father punished the Son. What you are presenting is more along the lines of Modalism. That's the idea that there is one God who manifests Himself as three personalities. Sometimes he's the father, sometimes the son and so on. When you said he punishes himself, you are speaking of one individual. The word he is a singular pronoun and cannot refer to more than one person. Thus, the language would force your argument into the Modalist position.






I'm ready whenever you are. Maybe they have a debate forum here. Some forums do.

Wow, what a load of croc. You are using a play on words to make your case. It only holds some water if you create a bubble and live in it. When you come out your bubble, you will realise, wow God is then actually not only unjust but also evil, sadistic and extremely silly. Imagine making a creation of mankind and then demanding some unlucky being who drew the shortest straw be punished for all their sin.

To make your case you seem to harp on Him not being punished. He was and scripture is crystal clear on this. Jesus was punished for our sins. Wages of sin is death. Jesus did die.

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Mark 15:37 Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed out His last.

Yes, He was our ransom for sin and yes, He was PUNISHED for OUR SIN.

--------------------------------

Practical example of YOUR belief (in case you don't grasp it is evil, sadistic and unjust):

Your wife wants a child but does not want to endure the pain of childbirth. She chooses one of her loyal servants to bear all the pain. Let's say for arguments sake, they need only hold her hand during childbirth, and they will experience all the pain and your wife none. Your most faithful servant chooses, cough cough cough, cough cough cough, to willingly lay their life down (as it is a known fact that this pain will kill them), for your truly humble, loving, caring, just, and merciful wife.

Imagine thinking this is not unjust, evil, and sadistic abuse.

---------------------------------

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You quote this line but don't grasp it. If Jesus was not God this line would read, the gift of Jesus is eternal life with God, and it would certainly NOT end with ''Jesus is our Lord''. You seem to have forgotten that God is a jealous God. Imagine thinking He be ok with us calling Jesus, Lord. And on that, don't come with your next silly bubble of ''there were other Lords at the time of Jesus'', when you know full well that lords were royalty, landowners, people with authority and power. Jesus was a carpenter born in a manger who will have ALL OF MANKIND call Him LORD for all ETERNITY. If God was a jealous God, He would NOT be ok with that.

Matt 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:5 for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.

---------------------------

It is truly sad to see you hold to such a silly belief. I pray that God opens your eyes to how you are damaging Christianity and tainting Him to the lost that He loves and died for.

 

[Butch5]

Wow, what a load of croc. You are using a play on words to make your case. It only holds some water if you create a bubble and live in it. When you come out your bubble, you will realise, wow God is then actually not only unjust but also evil, sadistic and extremely silly. Imagine making a creation of mankind and then demanding some unlucky being who drew the shortest straw be punished for all their sin.

To make your case you seem to harp on Him not being punished. He was and scripture is crystal clear on this. Jesus was punished for our sins. Wages of sin is death. Jesus did die.

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Mark 15:37 Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed out His last.

Yes, He was our ransom for sin and yes, He was PUNISHED for OUR SIN.

As I expected. You said you want to debate, yet you didn't even address the argument. Penal Atonement has Jesus being punished by God. That is wrong. He was punished; however, it was by Satan.

Your argument is so ridiculous it can't really even be addressed. You said God punished Himself. The punishment was death. So, I guess you're saying that God committed suicide. Who then brought Him back to life?

--------------------------------

Practical example of YOUR belief (in case you don't grasp it is evil, sadistic and unjust):

Your wife wants a child but does not want to endure the pain of childbirth. She chooses one of her loyal servants to bear all the pain. Let's say for arguments sake, they need only hold her hand during childbirth, and they will experience all the pain and your wife none. Your most faithful servant chooses, cough cough cough, cough cough cough, to willingly lay their life down (as it is a known fact that this pain will kill them), for your truly humble, loving, caring, just, and merciful wife.

Imagine thinking this is not unjust, evil, and sadistic abuse.

You might try using an accurate analogy. According to Penal Atonement Jesus' suffering was at the hands of God. That idea absurd.

---------------------------------

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You quote this line but don't grasp it. If Jesus was not God this line would read, the gift of Jesus is eternal life with God, and it would certainly NOT end with ''Jesus is our Lord''. You seem to have forgotten that God is a jealous God. Imagine thinking He be ok with us calling Jesus, Lord. And on that, don't come with your next silly bubble of ''there were other Lords at the time of Jesus'', when you know full well that lords were royalty, landowners, people with authority and power. Jesus was a carpenter born in a manger who will have ALL OF MANKIND call Him LORD for all ETERNITY. If God was a jealous God, He would NOT be ok with that.

Matt 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:5 for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.

---------------------------

That, like most of your arguments, is nothing more than your opinion. Do you now purport to speak for God? Under what authority do you tell us how God feels about Jesus being called Lord? You said, "this line would read." This is a clear example of you projecting your thoughts on to what Paul should have said in your opinion. You know what they say about opinions, right?

It is truly sad to see you hold to such a silly belief. I pray that God opens your eyes to how you are damaging Christianity and tainting Him to the lost that He loves and died for.

I'd encourage you to pray for your own understanding. Your arguments are laced with fallacies and other errors in reasoning.

 

[KingJ]

As I expected. You said you want to debate, yet you didn't even address the argument.

Ambiguous accusation, not sure what to say. Perhaps type a specific point you think was not addressed?

Formal debate. One person types their point. Next replies and types a new point. Like a game of tennis with moderators. Dancing, moving goal posts, rabbit trails mostly shut down.

Penal Atonement has Jesus being punished by God. That is wrong. He was punished; however, it was by Satan.

This is where your brain needs to do a little work.

If I am a prison warden, invite a nun into the prison and put her in a cell with a serial rapist. Who is punishing the nun?

Your argument is so ridiculous it can't really even be addressed. You said God punished Himself. The punishment was death. So, I guess you're saying that God committed suicide. Who then brought Him back to life?

You come unstuck because your brain is working in 2D and not 3D. We are mind, body and spirit. Death for all has always meant body only.

You might try using an accurate analogy. According to Penal Atonement Jesus' suffering was at the hands of God. That idea absurd.

The analogy given was purely in reply to your line, More dancing from you.

That, like most of your arguments, is nothing more than your opinion. Do you now purport to speak for God? Under what authority do you tell us how God feels about Jesus being called Lord? You said, "this line would read." This is a clear example of you projecting your thoughts on to what Paul should have said in your opinion. You know what they say about opinions, right?

Butch, this is so cringe and weak. Keeping face has become hard for you. More dancing from you.

1. Scripture telling us to call Jesus LORD is FACT not OPINION Rom 10:9.
2. God is a JEALOUS God, FACT not OPINION Exo 34:14.
3. Calling someone other than our JEALOUS God, LORD, would make Him JEALOUS. FACT, not OPINION.
4. Jesus did NOT qualify to be called a LORD as others at His time were called. Like landowners and royalty. FACT not OPINION.
5. We call Jesus LORD because God reveals this to us. FACT not OPINION! 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

Try calling someone other than Jesus, God or a person with royalty Lord, someone like your local pastor and let's see how long you go without lightning striking you......

I'd encourage you to pray for your own understanding. Your arguments are laced with fallacies and other errors in reasoning.

This line is exactly why people like you should only be spoken to in a formal debate setting.

You were presented with facts. Even the very scriptures you used did not support your position. Yet somehow you think you have successfully danced around this all. No, Butch, anyone reading this thread can see that your arguments have been shut down and you are becoming guilty of ostrich syndrome.

 

[Butch5]

Ambiguous accusation, not sure what to say. Perhaps type a specific point you think was not addressed?

Formal debate. One person types their point. Next replies and types a new point. Like a game of tennis with moderators. Dancing, moving goal posts, rabbit trails mostly shut down.



This is where your brain needs to do a little work.

If I am a prison warden, invite a nun into the prison and put her in a cell with a serial rapist. Who is punishing the nun?



You come unstuck because your brain is working in 2D and not 3D. We are mind, body and spirit. Death for all has always meant body only.



The analogy given was purely in reply to your line, More dancing from you.



Butch, this is so cringe and weak. Keeping face has become hard for you. More dancing from you.

1. Scripture telling us to call Jesus LORD is FACT not OPINION Rom 10:9.
2. God is a JEALOUS God, FACT not OPINION Exo 34:14.
3. Calling someone other than our JEALOUS God, LORD, would make Him JEALOUS. FACT, not OPINION.
4. Jesus did NOT qualify to be called a LORD as others at His time were called. Like landowners and royalty. FACT not OPINION.
5. We call Jesus LORD because God reveals this to us. FACT not OPINION! 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

Try calling someone other than Jesus, God or a person with royalty Lord, someone like your local pastor and let's see how long you go without lightning striking you......



This line is exactly why people like you should only be spoken to in a formal debate setting.

You were presented with facts. Even the very scriptures you used did not support your position. Yet somehow you think you have successfully danced around this all. No, Butch, anyone reading this thread can see that your arguments have been shut down and you are becoming guilty of ostrich syndrome.

When you can make a case from Scripture rather than opinions come back and let me know.

 

[KingJ]

When you can make a case from Scripture rather than opinions come back and let me know.

I type five facts and give the scriptures and yet you type this...

Ostrich syndrome refers to a psychological tendency where a person avoids or denies uncomfortable realities, problems, or negative information—much like the myth that ostriches bury their heads in the sand to avoid danger. It is a form of avoidance coping, where individuals ignore difficult situations rather than confronting them.

While it may provide temporary relief, ostrich syndrome can make problems worse over time. Facing issues head-on is generally a healthier approach.

 

[bdavidc]

Imagine Philip, standing there staring Christ in the face and asking Him to show him God. Jesus’ answer to him was, “Open your eyes. You’ve been looking at Me for three years.” They who had seen Jesus had seen the visible manifestation of God. The writer of Hebrews says, “[Jesus Christ] is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,” or as the King James Version says, “the express image of His person” (Hebrews 1:3). The apostle Paul wrote, “He is the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15), and “In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9). Jesus is God.

Jesus is God - Audio

jesus-is-god.org

 

[Butch5]

I type five facts and give the scriptures and yet you type this...

Ostrich syndrome refers to a psychological tendency where a person avoids or denies uncomfortable realities, problems, or negative information—much like the myth that ostriches bury their heads in the sand to avoid danger. It is a form of avoidance coping, where individuals ignore difficult situations rather than confronting them.

While it may provide temporary relief, ostrich syndrome can make problems worse over time. Facing issues head-on is generally a healthier approach.

Then maybe you should try it.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 8:4–6.

Maybe you could address this head on instead of avoiding it.

 

[KingJ]

Then maybe you should try it.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 8:4–6.

Maybe you could address this head on instead of avoiding it.

Geesh Butch you are so elusive. Trying to get you to acknowledge that a non - trinitarian belief incriminates God as evil and a sadistic fool was my game plan with you. A logical discussion that you have completely and utterly avoided. I don't blame you; it is a TKO fact. Your only play is to change the topic and hope nobody noticed.

-----------------------------

As for your scripture. You have been given scripture stating that all authority is given to Jesus, that Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and God.

The problem you have is that you 1. Cherry pick certain scriptures and 2. Ignore conflicting scriptures.

Every scripture must be considered and none removed. Scripture shines light on scripture.

Your mind cannot grasp how God can present Himself as three and make Himself a Lamb to the slaughter. That is forgivable, but we do need to be intellectually honest....

1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?

--------------------------

We can be forgiven for mistakenly cherry-picking scriptures and making terrible reading blunders. But when we know that the belief we are pushing incriminates God, we need to explain ourselves!. Deal with this fact. As scripture is crystal clear on God being good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and just Job 34:12.

There are two big evils in a non- trinitarian belief that you need to 'represent a good God on'.

I repeat myself...a non-trinitarian belief implies the following:

1. Worshipping Jesus is evil.

God is a jealous God, and we must have no gods before Him Exo 34:14

2. God is unjust and therefore evil

Punishing a being He created for sin He did not commit is unjust, sadistic and evil. Punishing Himself is not evil. A mother committing to pain in childbirth is guilty of no evil.

------------------------

I am going to grab some popcorn, because I am going to expect more evasion and or illogical reasoning incoming...

 

[Curtis]

Is God’s power, and Wisdom separate from God himself self?
No they are not!

1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

 

[Butch5]

Geesh Butch you are so elusive. Trying to get you to acknowledge that a non - trinitarian belief incriminates God as evil and a sadistic fool was my game plan with you. A logical discussion that you have completely and utterly avoided. I don't blame you; it is a TKO fact. Your only play is to change the topic and hope nobody noticed.

-----------------------------

As for your scripture. You have been given scripture stating that all authority is given to Jesus, that Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and God.

The problem you have is that you 1. Cherry pick certain scriptures and 2. Ignore conflicting scriptures.

Every scripture must be considered and none removed. Scripture shines light on scripture.

Your mind cannot grasp how God can present Himself as three and make Himself a Lamb to the slaughter. That is forgivable, but we do need to be intellectually honest....

1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?

--------------------------

We can be forgiven for mistakenly cherry-picking scriptures and making terrible reading blunders. But when we know that the belief we are pushing incriminates God, we need to explain ourselves!. Deal with this fact. As scripture is crystal clear on God being good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and just Job 34:12.

There are two big evils in a non- trinitarian belief that you need to 'represent a good God on'.

I repeat myself...a non-trinitarian belief implies the following:

1. Worshipping Jesus is evil.

God is a jealous God, and we must have no gods before Him Exo 34:14

2. God is unjust and therefore evil

Punishing a being He created for sin He did not commit is unjust, sadistic and evil. Punishing Himself is not evil. A mother committing to pain in childbirth is guilty of no evil.

------------------------

I am going to grab some popcorn, because I am going to expect more evasion and or illogical reasoning incoming...

I've already addressed your nonsensical argument. God did not punish Jesus. God also did not commit suicide. It's funny how you accuse others of avoidance and yet you made no attempt to address the passage I quoted. Instead you just made a nonsensical claim that I've cherry picked passages, which we all know is about as far from the truth as you can get. As I've pointed out, your argument, non-trinitarianism makes God evil, is based on a false premise, that false premise is the doctrine of Penal Atonement. When we have one false doctrine and base others on it, it's likely that they too will be erroneous as we see here.

So, I'll ask again. The penalty for sin is death. If God punished Himself then He had to commit suicide. The question is who brought Him back to life?

You would do well to lose the attitude, find some humility and study the early Christian faith. You'll be surprised at what you learn.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

In the same book of John in 17:3 Jesus himself said that his Father was the only true God. If his father is the only true God, what kind of god is Jesus? Also, in the Greek which John used when writing John 1:1 John used the definite article "the" when he said in the beginning was "the" word and also when he wrote "the" word was with God, but left it out when he said and word was god. You might know that there is no indefinite article a, an in the Greek. I don't think he did this by accident. It was the only way he could show that Jesus was not "the" God.

Do you understand how Jesus became the son of God? If you did you would also know how Jesus IS God God had a baby...not Himself but through a woman.

 

[Butch5]

Geesh Butch you are so elusive. Trying to get you to acknowledge that a non - trinitarian belief incriminates God as evil and a sadistic fool was my game plan with you. A logical discussion that you have completely and utterly avoided. I don't blame you; it is a TKO fact. Your only play is to change the topic and hope nobody noticed.

-----------------------------

As for your scripture. You have been given scripture stating that all authority is given to Jesus, that Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and God.

The problem you have is that you 1. Cherry pick certain scriptures and 2. Ignore conflicting scriptures.

Every scripture must be considered and none removed. Scripture shines light on scripture.

Your mind cannot grasp how God can present Himself as three and make Himself a Lamb to the slaughter. That is forgivable, but we do need to be intellectually honest....

1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?

--------------------------

We can be forgiven for mistakenly cherry-picking scriptures and making terrible reading blunders. But when we know that the belief we are pushing incriminates God, we need to explain ourselves!. Deal with this fact. As scripture is crystal clear on God being good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and just Job 34:12.

There are two big evils in a non- trinitarian belief that you need to 'represent a good God on'.

I repeat myself...a non-trinitarian belief implies the following:

1. Worshipping Jesus is evil.

God is a jealous God, and we must have no gods before Him Exo 34:14

2. God is unjust and therefore evil

Punishing a being He created for sin He did not commit is unjust, sadistic and evil. Punishing Himself is not evil. A mother committing to pain in childbirth is guilty of no evil.

------------------------

I am going to grab some popcorn, because I am going to expect more evasion and or illogical reasoning incoming...

You sadi,

"
1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?"


So, you tell me I'm wrong about God, yet you openly admit that you can't understand God. By admitting you don't understand God you admit that what you've said is speculation.

God can do anything? Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

You sadi,

"
1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?"


So, you tell me I'm wrong about God, yet you openly admit that you can't understand God. By admitting you don't understand God you admit that what you've said is speculation.

God can do anything? Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it?

Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it? I've heard that stupid useless question too many times

 

[Christ4Ever]

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 8:4–6.

Апологетика — Вікіпедія

https://www.apprising.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/14.jpg

There are different types of images that reflect this. So, I'm not particular to these two Still the point is made that you can see visually.
This makes it simple for you to see how the Trinity exists and why we also believe there is only One God.
They have existed eternally. Which Bible verses have been posted throughout this and other threads on the Trinity.
I'm trying to find something visual that shows how you see it, and God the Father, Son of God, Holy Spirit. Now how that might show visually if I had a graphics program, I might be able to make one that would show what I am assuming you see as God the Father, with the Son, and Holy Spirit as outliers. With the rest of Creation as outliers to the Son, and Holy Spirit.

Since you all like reason, and you don't see this (Trinity) as being reasonable. If God the Father pre-existed both the Son & Holy Spirit, to my thinking He could not be God the Father, but just God. Then to become God the Father, the essence of God would have had to been separated to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, their existence at that time then is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, because the essence is the same, and eternal, unless you believe that there is a separate God, from the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit that exists as well. I have no issue with the hierarchy, and some would say authority being God the Father, Son of God, & Holy Spirit. It does not remove the Godhead/Divinity from existing equally for all three.

You are welcome to take a look at the Heidelberg Catechism - Zacharias Ursinus that addresses many issues, on the Divinity of Christ start on page 326. Try to save you a rather long read of 1023 pages which is a translation from the original Latin!

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/ursinus/Commentary%20on%20the%20Heidelberg%20Ca%20-%20Zacharias%20Ursinus.pdf

However, just in case you are interested which I might have stated before on my belief/understanding in the hierarchy of the Trinity was not founded upon this document or others that are out there on the subject, since I didn't even know of their existence before doing a bit of searching about a month ago. lol I did this because some who will remain unnamed by me thought me to be a liar/idiot/consciously/unconsciously or all of them, because I had no confirmed truth of the Trinity yeah/nay from reading scripture.

What the person failed to understand was that I could see many of the concepts being bandied about from a variety of people, but none so convincingly to hitch myself to a particular wagon of said belief, Trinity included. As I believe it should be, all in God's time, it will be made known to me/anyone, if He wills it to be so. Perhaps it is patience or simply my simple-minded nature, but it was not until the Holy Spirit said "Hierarchy" while I was reading Scripture in search of something, and repeated it twice when I paused, that I thought to myself, "Huh." lol The second time it just clicked. All the concepts of God, with the variety of Scripture now made sense. It all came together, and I've not doubted it ever since, which would be between 5-7 years ago!!! Meaning I was in my 60''s after having been drawn by the Holy Spirit on 19 December 1979 in a small Baptist Church in Germany. Of all places for a Spanish kid from Bklyn NY to come to the Lord! Anyway, I digress.

Now you can accept my testimony/understanding on this or not, and think its wrongheaded, without reason, etc. Like I've said, you would not be the first to insinuate/question my sanity or reasoning, but there you have it. I remember how you said you came to see the unreasonableness of the Trinity after a time of reading through Scripture. To me I just don't see how one could come by that, when so many of the concepts being bandied about (expression of the day it appears), could just as easily be justified as being correct, but I'm not you or know the struggle you went through to come to the understanding you hold to. No matter the scripture, you point to (within context) it speaks to the Divinity/Godhead, hierarchy of positional authority, that makes God = God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, since Eternity. Enjoy the read! \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Butch5]

Апологетика — Вікіпедія

https://www.apprising.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/14.jpg

There are different types of images that reflect this. So, I'm not particular to these two Still the point is made that you can see visually.
This makes it simple for you to see how the Trinity exists and why we also believe there is only One God.
They have existed eternally. Which Bible verses have been posted throughout this and other threads on the Trinity.
I'm trying to find something visual that shows how you see it, and God the Father, Son of God, Holy Spirit. Now how that might show visually if I had a graphics program, I might be able to make one that would show what I am assuming you see as God the Father, with the Son, and Holy Spirit as outliers. With the rest of Creation as outliers to the Son, and Holy Spirit.

Since you all like reason, and you don't see this (Trinity) as being reasonable. If God the Father pre-existed both the Son & Holy Spirit, to my thinking He could not be God the Father, but just God. Then to become God the Father, the essence of God would have had to been separated to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, their existence at that time then is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, because the essence is the same, and eternal, unless you believe that there is a separate God, from the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit that exists as well. I have no issue with the hierarchy, and some would say authority being God the Father, Son of God, & Holy Spirit. It does not remove the Godhead/Divinity from existing equally for all three.

You are welcome to take a look at the Heidelberg Catechism - Zacharias Ursinus that addresses many issues, on the Divinity of Christ start on page 326. Try to save you a rather long read of 1023 pages which is a translation from the original Latin!

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/ursinus/Commentary%20on%20the%20Heidelberg%20Ca%20-%20Zacharias%20Ursinus.pdf

However, just in case you are interested which I might have stated before on my belief/understanding in the hierarchy of the Trinity was not founded upon this document or others that are out there on the subject, since I didn't even know of their existence before doing a bit of searching about a month ago. lol I did this because some who will remain unnamed by me thought me to be a liar/idiot/consciously/unconsciously or all of them, because I had no confirmed truth of the Trinity yeah/nay from reading scripture.

What the person failed to understand was that I could see many of the concepts being bandied about from a variety of people, but none so convincingly to hitch myself to a particular wagon of said belief, Trinity included. As I believe it should be, all in God's time, it will be made known to me/anyone, if He wills it to be so. Perhaps it is patience or simply my simple-minded nature, but it was not until the Holy Spirit said "Hierarchy" while I was reading Scripture in search of something, and repeated it twice when I paused, that I thought to myself, "Huh." lol The second time it just clicked. All the concepts of God, with the variety of Scripture now made sense. It all came together, and I've not doubted it ever since, which would be between 5-7 years ago!!! Meaning I was in my 60''s after having been drawn by the Holy Spirit on 19 December 1979 in a small Baptist Church in Germany. Of all places for a Spanish kid from Bklyn NY to come to the Lord! Anyway, I digress.

Now you can accept my testimony/understanding on this or not, and think its wrongheaded, without reason, etc. Like I've said, you would not be the first to insinuate/question my sanity or reasoning, but there you have it. I remember how you said you came to see the unreasonableness of the Trinity after a time of reading through Scripture. To me I just don't see how one could come by that, when so many of the concepts being bandied about (expression of the day it appears), could just as easily be justified as being correct, but I'm not you or know the struggle you went through to come to the understanding you hold to. No matter the scripture, you point to (within context) it speaks to the Divinity/Godhead, hierarchy of positional authority, that makes God = God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, since Eternity. Enjoy the read! \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

But the passage explicitly states that the one God is the Father. If Paul believed in a Trinity, one would not expect him to make a distinction between God and Jesus, yet he does.

It seems this hierarchy teaching is yet another addition to the Trinity doctrine. That in itself is a problem. How does a Biblical doctrine evolve? the Trinity doctrine as it was codified states this,

So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

and this,

And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal, so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.

It seems to me that the original teaching states plainly that there is no hierarchy. None of the three comes before or after any of the others. So, it must follow then that this hierarchy in the Godhead is yet another variation from the original teaching. This is a common occurrence with other Christian doctrines also but that's another thread.

You said,

"Since you all like reason, and you don't see this (Trinity) as being reasonable. If God the Father pre-existed both the Son & Holy Spirit, to my thinking He could not be God the Father, but just God. Then to become God the Father, the essence of God would have had to been separated to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, their existence at that time then is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, because the essence is the same, and eternal, unless you believe that there is a separate God, from the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit that exists as well. "

I agree that He wouldn't have been God the Father. He wouldn't even have been God. The problem is that people equivocate when it comes to the word god. The word god simply means a ruler. It's not an essence. It's a title. A ruler needs a people and/or a kingdom to rule over. Before creation, as far as we know, there was nothing to rule over. Therefore, there was no ruler or god. Since the first thing God did in creation was to beget a Son that would then make Him Father. It would also make Him a ruler or God because there was now another being to ruler over. Because God is a title and not an essence, His offspring is not necessarily going to be God. His offspring will be of the same essence as the being we call God. Consider a father and Son. If the father is president of the US his son is of the same essence, however, the son is not president of the US. The word president, like god, is a title not an essence.

If we say that god is an essence, then we must accept the idea that all of the pagan gods are of the same essence as the Father. I think most of us would find that idea absurd. We know that is not the case. Thus, the word god cannot denote an essence but rather must be a title. I'm in agreement that the Son is of the same essence as the Father. However, that essence doesn't make the Son God. In order to be called God the Son must have a kingdom and people over which He rules. That begs the question, is there a time when the Son has a kingdom and people over which He rules? If He does, then at that time He can be called God.


1 My heart is inditing a good matter:
I speak of the things which I have made touching the king:
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men:
Grace is poured into thy lips:
Therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty,
With thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty hride prosperously
Because of truth and meekness and righteousness;
And thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp
In the heart of the king’s enemies;
Whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
Therefore mGod, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

King James Ps 45:1–7.

Here we have a prophecy of Christ. Notice He is called God in reference to a kingdom. He has a throne, a scepter, and a kingdom, and He is called God here.

Now consider the words of Jesus.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Holy Bible: Mt 28:17–18.

After His resurrection Jesus was given all power. God the Father handed over all power and authority to Christ to rule over creation, thus Jesus now has the title of God. He is the ruler at this present time. Consider Pau's words.

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And sagain, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And xof the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10

Bible: King James Heb 1.

In this passage Paul quotes or alludes to several Old Testament passages. Here he says God has spoken to them through His Son. Note that regarding God's Son, Paul quotes Psalm 45:6-7. He quotes this when speaking of the excellency of Christ. Again, Jesus is called God in relation to His ruling in the Kingdom. It's a title.

However, notice what else Paul says. "And sagain, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world." He's speaking of God bringing the firstborn into the world. The literal first born man was Cain. So, what Paul is saying is that Jesus was literally the firstborn. He was begotten out of the Father. If He was born, then He had a beginning and thus could not be eternal. We see in proverbs 8 that Jesus was the first born.



The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.
24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,
31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.


Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, eds., “Proverbs,” in A New English Translation of the Septuagint (Primary Texts), trans. Johann Cook (New York; Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007), Pr 8:22–31

In verse 22 the word created isn't the best translation. The Greek word literally means to bring into existence. God did bring Christ into existence by begetting Him as a Son. Notice it says he was brought forth unto the works. The works of creation. Who was it that created all things? It was the Son, or Jesus. Verse 25 says, "he begets me." 27 says "I was present with Him." Notice verse 30, it says, "I was beside him, fitting together." That's the Son. And notice that it was Him that God took delight in. Now lets consider Jesus words.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

King James Jn 8:39–42.

The word from, bolded above is the Greek word "ek." It literally means to come out of. The literal translation is that Jesus proceeded forth and came out of God. Let's consider more.


25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.

Holy Bible, Jn 8:25.

When the Jews asked Jesus who He was He answered, "the beginning." What did verse 22 say? the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Bible: King James Re 3:14.

Here again we see Jesus referred to as the beginning Just like we saw in Proverbs 8. Notice in verse 30 where He speaks of being the one in whom God delighted. What do we find in Scripture?

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

King James Mt 3:16–17.

Literally, it is "was well pleased" Again, we can see the clear reference back to Proverbs 8. We also see God making this statement When Peter, James, and John were with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. It's clear that this passage in Proverbs 8 is speaking of the Son and the Son was begotten out of God

 

[Butch5]

Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it? I've heard that stupid useless question too many times

If it refutes one's argument it's a stupid useless question?

 

[KingJ]

I've already addressed your nonsensical argument. God did not punish Jesus.

You have not dealt with it, no. If you did the discussion would be over.

YES or NO answer. If a warden puts a nun in a prison with a rapist and she gets raped. Is the warden guilty of evil? YES or NO!!!!!!

I never expected you to be such a dancer Butch. I honestly expected better of you.

God also did not commit suicide.

Again, second time, Jesus was mind, body and spirit. Just like us. Nobodies spirit ever dies. Only our bodies. Jesus's body died.

You need to put your annihilationist view aside for a moment, it is making you biased and swallow nonsense.

It's funny how you accuse others of avoidance and yet you made no attempt to address the passage I quoted.

That is because it IS cherry picked. You show me a verse that says there is one God. I show you a verse that says Jesus is the Messiah who is God. I show you a verse that says God is a very jealous God. You ignore my verses and hold to yours. Do you then believe that we must not worship Jesus? Second time I am asking you this........!!!!????

Half truths are dangerous. Do you also tell people to jump off building as angels will catch them?

Instead you just made a nonsensical claim that I've cherry picked passages, which we all know is about as far from the truth as you can get.

Oh brother.

As I've pointed out, your argument, non-trinitarianism makes God evil, is based on a false premise, that false premise is the doctrine of Penal Atonement.

More dancing.

Penal atonement is simply acknowledging that the punishment Jesus received atones us from our sin.

Now, if Jesus was a creation like you and I, in what world and in what universe would what He received be the workings of a just and righteous Being? It is sadistic and evil. For you to dance around this fact as you are is literal insanity. Worse than believing the earth is flat. 100% insane!

When we have one false doctrine and base others on it, it's likely that they too will be erroneous as we see here.

So, I'll ask again. The penalty for sin is death. If God punished Himself then He had to commit suicide. The question is who brought Him back to life?

Well you seem to miss the point of me telling you that we do not even know how God came into existence. Both you and I!

The most rational statement we can make, is that God killed a body He created. A body. Not a spirit or mind. We see scripture confirms this.

You would do well to lose the attitude, find some humility and study the early Christian faith. You'll be surprised at what you learn.

I have little patience for so called Christians who incriminate God and do not care to concede or better explain themselves. They simply waste others time by dancing around questions and facts made. And they are mostly terrible dancers, so the whole exchange becomes cringeworthy and painful.

------------------

Explain to a non-Christian how your God is not a sadistic and evil fool for putting Jesus, some clearly unlucky random person who drew the shortest straw through a torturous ordeal and death for sins He did not commit.

Go floor is yours......

 

[KingJ]

You sadi,

"
1. We believe in a God whose existence we cannot explain.

2. A God who can do anything, can surely make Himself a lamb to the slaughter?"


So, you tell me I'm wrong about God, yet you openly admit that you can't understand God.

You are missing a simple point. I am saying that you are wrong about God because you are incriminating Him as evil when scriptures is crystal clear that He is not evil. Do you seriously not understand that and the necessity for you to explain yourself?

By admitting you don't understand God you admit that what you've said is speculation.

Incorrect. We get the trinity from scripture. We need to keep to exactly what scripture tells us, the A-Z of it, as understanding God is not easy.

God can do anything? Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it?

This argument is silly, very silly.

Even if Jesus was not God, in a resurrected body He would be able to go through the rock. We see this with His ascension. His new body could fly, disappear and did not need air to breathe.

An angel moved the rock per Matt 28:2-4 out of respect for Jesus and as a sign to us.

 

[Christ4Ever]

But the passage explicitly states that the one God is the Father. If Paul believed in a Trinity, one would not expect him to make a distinction between God and Jesus, yet he does.

It seems this hierarchy teaching is yet another addition to the Trinity doctrine. That in itself is a problem. How does a Biblical doctrine evolve? the Trinity doctrine as it was codified states this,

Actually, in a hierarchy the opposite of what you said would be the case. If he is understanding this to be true, he would have to make that distinction because Jesus is also fully human!

So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

Exactly! They are all in agreement!

And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal, so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.

It seems to me that the original teaching states plainly that there is no hierarchy. None of the three comes before or after any of the others. So, it must follow then that this hierarchy in the Godhead is yet another variation from the original teaching. This is a common occurrence with other Christian doctrines also but that's another thread.

You failed to understand what I wrote to you, or you don't want to understand it, because I have said nothing about them not being co-eternal or co-equal because they are. Did you look at the graphic? If you look at that, then you'd understand how that is so.

I agree that He wouldn't have been God the Father. He wouldn't even have been God. The problem is that people equivocate when it comes to the word god. The word god simply means a ruler. It's not an essence. It's a title.

So, before Creation what was He? He won't need a name and has one that we might understand if but a little bit, who He Is.
You are correct it is only a Title! The essence is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They actually don't even need that distinction because they know each other fully. The distinction exists that we might understand who He is.

Since the first thing God did in creation was to beget a Son that would then make Him Father.

Yes, and the Father and Son are from the same essence doing so by the Holy Spirit that is of the same essence for there was nothing else. So, it would be impossible for one to be less than the other. And so is the beginning of the Trinity & Hierarchy.

Note: Please don't think of begotten in human terms of procreation, because if you do than you'll go down the rabbit hole of those who see the Holy Spirit as Mother! Which we had a new member who had been part of a church that believes that, and sadly has been chased away, by one of our not so loving members.

When I converse with God, I address all three persons of the Trinity. However, when I speak specifically to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, I am still communicating with God, but with a particular focus within the divine hierarchy.

Because God is a title and not an essence, His offspring is not necessarily going to be God. His offspring will be of the same essence as the being we call God. Consider a father and Son. If the father is president of the US his son is of the same essence, however, the son is not president of the US. The word president, like god, is a title not an essence.

Why not if they are the same essence? That is why I believe it was in this thread, or might have been another, I said "A rose by any other name is still a rose." The inherent qualities are not changed at all no matter what you title it. This is where hierarchy comes into play. Each choose to willingly be who they are in the Godhead/Divinity. Which is why they are always in agreement. Father, Son, Holy Spirit is positional only and why they are God when acting on behalf of each other.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I'm truly sorry in failing to explain this to you in such a way that you would know. It is also the reason I sought some outside references that would be able to communicate to you and others in words that would be able to answer the questions you might have concerning this topic. And the reason I provided the link to the .pdf in my last post.

If we say that god is an essence, then we must accept the idea that all of the pagan gods are of the same essence as the Father. I think most of us would find that idea absurd. We know that is not the case. Thus, the word god cannot denote an essence but rather must be a title. I'm in agreement that the Son is of the same essence as the Father. However, that essence doesn't make the Son God. In order to be called God the Son must have a kingdom and people over which He rules. That begs the question, is there a time when the Son has a kingdom and people over which He rules? If He does, then at that time He can be called God.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. John 16:15 KJV

Note: Which includes the Holy Spirit in this verse!

1 My heart is inditing a good matter:
I speak of the things which I have made touching the king:
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men:
Grace is poured into thy lips:
Therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty,
With thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty hride prosperously
Because of truth and meekness and righteousness;
And thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp
In the heart of the king’s enemies;
Whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
Therefore mGod, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

King James Ps 45:1–7.

Here we have a prophecy of Christ. Notice He is called God in reference to a kingdom. He has a throne, a scepter, and a kingdom, and He is called God here.

Now consider the words of Jesus.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Holy Bible: Mt 28:17–18.

After His resurrection Jesus was given all power. God the Father handed over all power and authority to Christ to rule over creation, thus Jesus now has the title of God. He is the ruler at this present time. Consider Pau's words.

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And sagain, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And xof the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10

Bible: King James Heb 1.

In this passage Paul quotes or alludes to several Old Testament passages. Here he says God has spoken to them through His Son. Note that regarding God's Son, Paul quotes Psalm 45:6-7. He quotes this when speaking of the excellency of Christ. Again, Jesus is called God in relation to His ruling in the Kingdom. It's a title.

However, notice what else Paul says. "And sagain, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world." He's speaking of God bringing the firstborn into the world. The literal first born man was Cain. So, what Paul is saying is that Jesus was literally the firstborn. He was begotten out of the Father. If He was born, then He had a beginning and thus could not be eternal. We see in proverbs 8 that Jesus was the first born.



The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways,
for the sake of his works.
23 Before the present age he founded me,
in the beginning.
24 Before he made the earth and before he made the depths,
before he brought forth the springs of the waters,
25 before the mountains were established
and before all the hills, he begets me.
26 The Lord made countries and uninhabited spaces
and the habitable heights of that beneath the sky.
27 When he prepared the sky, I was present with him,
and when he marked out his own throne on the winds.
28 When he made strong the clouds above
and when he made secure the springs beneath the sky,
29 when he made strong the foundations of the earth,
30 I was beside him, fitting together;
it is I who was the one in whom he took delight.
And each day I was glad in his presence at every moment,
31 when he rejoiced after he had completed the world
and rejoiced among the sons of men.


Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, eds., “Proverbs,” in A New English Translation of the Septuagint (Primary Texts), trans. Johann Cook (New York; Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007), Pr 8:22–31

In verse 22 the word created isn't the best translation. The Greek word literally means to bring into existence. God did bring Christ into existence by begetting Him as a Son. Notice it says he was brought forth unto the works. The works of creation. Who was it that created all things? It was the Son, or Jesus. Verse 25 says, "he begets me." 27 says "I was present with Him." Notice verse 30, it says, "I was beside him, fitting together." That's the Son. And notice that it was Him that God took delight in. Now lets consider Jesus words.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

King James Jn 8:39–42.

The word from, bolded above is the Greek word "ek." It literally means to come out of. The literal translation is that Jesus proceeded forth and came out of God. Let's consider more.


25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.

Holy Bible, Jn 8:25.

When the Jews asked Jesus who He was He answered, "the beginning." What did verse 22 say? the Lord created me as the beginning of His ways.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Bible: King James Re 3:14.

Here again we see Jesus referred to as the beginning Just like we saw in Proverbs 8. Notice in verse 30 where He speaks of being the one in whom God delighted. What do we find in Scripture?

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

King James Mt 3:16–17.

Literally, it is "was well pleased" Again, we can see the clear reference back to Proverbs 8. We also see God making this statement When Peter, James, and John were with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. It's clear that this passage in Proverbs 8 is speaking of the Son and the Son was begotten out of God

It all makes sense if you understand that God is out of "Time" and sees (maybe lives) it all in the "Now". Past, present, future, is in the "Now" until Jesus/Son of God as Son of Man was manifested in the flesh and He laid the attributes He had since before Time in order to do so.

The rest is just going back over what is covered above.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><