Why Pre-Trib is unbiblical

[jari]

What I see is a set of instructions for those that do keep the Sabbath, and those that hail from the area of Judea.

Jesus never said "you who keep the sabbath", i believe the word only was: pray that your fleeing doesn't happen at sabbath.

Then I see Him speaking about the days of Noah, where one is taken before the destruction.

it doesnt say before descruction... although Noah's flood came before warnings, that's what the point seems to be here, there's no warning for unbelivers who dont know to look for return of Jesus and believers cant know the exact date either, only that it maybe near by the signs.
they didnt expect flood, they dont expect Jesus to return.

His coming after the tribulation is not like a thief, It's loud, and the earth is filled with his Glory. Mans heart fail them, the very heavens change. Man that are left have gone through a time this earth has never seen.

The tribulation is loud but thief it self can surprise. The point is i think unsaved people dont expect Jesus.

(Luk 21:28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
..
(Luk 21:34) And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
(Luk 21:35) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
(Luk 21:36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Here Jesus is telling it will come for whole earth (the tribulation, like a snare) but we are to watch. Not because we can avoid it but we need strength to escape the tribulation and stand before Son of man (who comes after because first we must flee).

and when the final events occur (sun darkening , stars falling) then we know Jesus will soon deliver us.

i originally started this thread with Mar 13:34-35 for this very reason that Jesus command to watch was not to watch just because lord's return date is unknown but we also have tasks to do.
the point in Wacthing is not sleeping, its not about being ready for that exact moment of Lords return as it will come as thief in the night but its for not sleeping and keeping watch of His house hold and tasks assigned to us. as well to escape the tribulation.

The Greek word for watch is:
agrupneō
ag-roop-neh'-o
Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless, that is, keep awake: - watch.

so again point is not about knowing the date of His return as one can expect to be soon like Jesus said when the events unfold but one cannot know exact date.
Luk 21:29-31

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

I was reading one of your posts, namely the following;

"Since we all see through a glass darkly, not having full
and perfect knowledge of everything, we can discuss things
of different views and revelations in hopes to see things
we once did not see."

This is what I though was the purpose of Talk Jesus.

To assist one another in grasping the full revelation of
Jesus Christ that we have received. This revelation that
has been handed down to us from generation to generation.

I have certainly acquired much in my time here as certainly
others have also. My grief is mainly experienced with the divergence
from the primary doctrines of Christianity which some cults profess.

 

[Brother Mike]

Avoid Tribulation.

Jari:

Here Jesus is telling it will come for whole earth (the tribulation, like a snare) but we are to watch. Not because we can avoid it but we need strength to escape the tribulation and stand before Son of man (who comes after because first we must flee).

Not because we can avoid tribulation the wrath of God on Earth?

You just just gave the scripture brother.

(Luk 21:36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escaping these things mean that you and I escape!!! and we stand before Jesus, caught up to be with him.


You see the difference in His coming here and his coming after the Tribulation?

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Nobody knew the flood of destruction was on the way until Noah and family were in the Ark. So shall also the coming of the son of man be!!!

How do they escape?

One is just taken, the other is left............

End of tribulation harvest all get taken and separated.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Here again in Danial. The time of trouble this planet has never seen, same time Jesus talked about. Tribulation. At that time we are delivered everyone found written in the book.

The Lambs book of life brother. You and I have our names there, you and I shall be taken so that God can deal with man, and keep his Promise to Israel.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Salvation, same meaning as Rescued, or put in safety. Through Jesus, right before the flood comes, right before tribulation. How?

One is taken, one is left.........

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We keep his word, we are faithful servants, we are ready at any time for his return. He said he would keep us from that trial to come upon the whole earth.

Them that dwell on the Earth!!! Meaning we won't be here on the Earth with them that go through trial.

Jari, your not going through any tribulation Brother, God has better plans for you than to be here when his wrath is poured out. You have already been counted worthy by the Blood of the Lamb, and your faith in Jesus Christ.

David777:

I was reading one of your posts, namely the following;

"Since we all see through a glass darkly, not having full
and perfect knowledge of everything, we can discuss things
of different views and revelations in hopes to see things
we once did not see."

This is what I though was the purpose of Talk Jesus.

To assist one another in grasping the full revelation of
Jesus Christ that we have received. This revelation that
has been handed down to us from generation to generation.

Praise God!!! many can come here, find out God's will on healing, prayer, get prayer, and learn things that are never brought up to them at their Church. I myself have gotten so much, and changed lots of my belief systems.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[shoutoutloud]

just 2 questions if it is post tribulation why do we need to keep watch then, now we know when He is coming?
second are you talking about His 2nd coming or the rapture of the church?
and I have read all the posts seems like you are talking about two different things here, His 2nd coming and the rapture of His church.

 

[David777]

Hello shoutoutloud.

Hey shoutoutloud I will attempt to answer your questions.
I am a novice in the field of eschatology, so consider
what I say carefully, check it out yourself.
Mike or Jari may provide better answers than I can.

It does not matter which eschatological position is ascribed to,
the Bible is the source. It is usually how the different components
of the end times are assembled that dictates the position held.

So in answer to your first question, post trib and keeping watch.

Regardless of a persons viewpoint in eschatology all Christians must
maintain a watch.

Matthew 24:42-44

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the
thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be
broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour
when you do not expect him.

Hope that makes sense to you, remember the parable of the ten virgins some let their
lamps go out. They did not keep watch! In the three end time positions available,
in each we have to keep watch.

The antichrist is the master of deception, he does not turn up
shouting "hello I'm here, I have arrived". In fact the antichrist
is only revealed by the return of the Lord. Here read the
following;

2 Thessalonians 2

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with
the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with
all power, signs, and lying wonders,

The rapture is the raising up of both the dead and the living
to meet the Lord on His return. Once again the rapture
occurs in all the eschatological positions with the return of
the Lord.

You may have to be more precise with your questions shoutoutloud.

The second coming of Christ and the rapture.

Please read the following,

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our
gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or
by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed (anti-christ),
the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped,
so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains
will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath
of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power,
signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive
the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Eschatology is an extremely difficult subject, I do not think any position can be proven from the scriptures.
All positions have flaws and assumptions.

 

[David777]

Hello pretrib Mike.

On the subject of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "falling away".

I hold to the position that "falling away" means what it says,
it is not about "departure" or "rapture".

Please read the following for the evidence to
support my statement.

1 Timothy 4:1-2

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith
and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings
come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as
with a hot iron."

This is most definitely falling away, love growing cold, love of the truth failing.

2 Timothy 4:1-4

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead,
and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word;
be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great
patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with
sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a
great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

The highlighted line is most definitely the falling away, "turn aside" is turn away.

What say ye to this Miketh.

How about this gem, "tickle our ears Mike".

I am learning some of the lingo that goes with the territory of eschatology.

 

[Brother Mike]

Impressive!!! Post David777

What say ye to this Miketh.

How about this gem, "tickle our ears Mike".

sorry, just posted while you where posting. Even if we take that to mean Apostasy which we certainly see with whole major denominations even considering the gay clergy vote. Though I see the Greek as removed from, what Paul stated below confirms that we can't be here if the son of perdition is going to stand a chance. He has no authority over the Greater one in us, or the anointed Church.

Now back to what I originally posted:



I am not very easily impressed with many post, but this one impressed me David.

Flaws on both sides get fixed, but depending on your perspective. I weigh scripture witnesses. This subject had me confused for years, until the Lord stated to deal with me on knowing it.

The whole interpretation is based on one thing. FAITH.
Post trib.......
Pre Trib........

Some examples:

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

That day of darkness can not come if we are still here. We are the light and salt of the Earth. God is not just going to rip away what we are called to be.

Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

--------------------------------------
We have all authority over the kingdom of Darkness. (Luke 10:19-20) The gates of Hell does not stand a chance against the body of Christ. We have already been delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the Kingdom of His dear son.

We are told to pray....

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Faith says that because many churches pray for those in government that we have avoided many disasters and things that could have gone very wrong. Things may not look good at times, but it always does come through. Israel is still standing, Nukes have not been released, though we had a few close calls.

It's the anointed body of Christ, the Light of the world holding this whole thing together.

For Satan to operate in the power he has in Rev, we can not be here.

----------------------------------------------------------

We need no more testing, or to experience the Wrath of God on this earth. The blood is more than enough to present us without spot or blemish. It's God's wrath people are suffering for, not all the things Satan is doing. Satan certainly has no authority over those of us that have this understanding.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


It's not the devil people have to be concerned with here. He makes a weak last attempt before he is thrown into the pit for a bit. It's the Wrath of God on this planet. People are not in much distress for what the devil is doing, it's what God is doing.

Once again, we are saved from the wrath to come, and we won't be there.

Faith says no way Satan can even touch the Church, Faith knows the authority of the name of Jesus. Faith knows we are the light of the World, and redeemed by the blood.

The light has to go out!!! When we are gone, this world will be a very dark place, and Satan free to do the best he can, though his people and armies are also having to endure God's Wrath. It's Satan's Worse defeat.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

Your last post #27 I think it was, will need some time for perusal
if that is ok. Still getting used to my new shoes, post trib shoes,
I have to wear these until I fully understand this post trib position.
I must say the shoes have a nice style to them. Over and out.

 

[David777]

Hey Mike are you ready?

Hello Mike, thanks for your longsuffering, I am slow at eschatology.

I wish to address a key argument in your last post if you do not mind.

This argument I have noticed is central to the Pre-Tribulation understanding.

Here is part of what you posted Mike,

"It's not the devil people have to be concerned with here. He makes a weak last attempt before he is thrown into the pit for a bit. It's the Wrath of God on this planet. People are not in much distress for what the devil is doing, it's what God is doing. Once again, we are saved from the wrath to come, and we won't be there. Faith says no way Satan can even touch the Church, Faith knows the authority of the name of Jesus. Faith knows we are the light of the World, and redeemed by the blood. The light has to go out!!! When we are gone, this world will be a very dark place, and Satan free to do the best he can, though his people and armies are also having to endure God's Wrath. It's Satan's Worse defeat.

What I noticed is a rather broad usage of the phrase "Wrath of God".

Your applying the Wrath of God to an extended period of time.

To the whole tribulation period.

Your saying the Church will not be there as it has been raptured.

This for me is where the fork in the road occurs Mike.

I will now apply the correct usage of the phrase "Wrath of God".

How do I determine the precise meaning of the "Wrath of God".

Consult the scriptures, is there any other way.

I will highlight the appropriate text in each verse Mike.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Romans 2:5
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

It is beyond question that our salvation voids the Wrath of God on us.

This is a single day of wrath, JUDGEMENT DAY.

Definitely not the minor wrath that occurred before this day.

 

[jari]

Not because we can avoid tribulation the wrath of God on Earth?

You just just gave the scripture brother.

(Luk 21:36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Escaping these things mean that you and I escape!!! and we stand before Jesus, caught up to be with him.

i meant to "avoid it all together". is not possible but Jesus said not a hair from your head will be lost.

Nobody knew the flood of destruction was on the way until Noah and family were in the Ark. So shall also the coming of the son of man be!!!

i still think the point is that the are surprised not that some are rapture though that happens too.

the point Jesus made is more clearly expressed in Luk 17

(Luk 17:26) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
(Luk 17:27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Same thing about Sodom:

(Luk 17:28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
(Luk 17:29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Point was they were all destroyed. they didnt escape tribulation.

AND Jesus was actually speaking about fleeing again (scripture above about similarity of Noah days continues):

(Luk 17:30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
(Luk 17:31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
(Luk 17:32) Remember Lot's wife.
(Luk 17:33) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

(Luk 17:34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.


He's again telling to flee and not go back to get your stuff. The unsaved people are like in day of sodom they wont escape. but we must.

perhaps this was about fleeing from jerusalem though?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

i think this just refers to the fact that God doesnt punish us on the last day due to our salvation. But when taken in context of Lord's coming which 1th 5 was about i think it also refer to the fact that we escape tribulation.
Tribulation maybe God's wrath but not intented to us, but we are protected from the harm.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Im not sure if this talks about the same tribulation. We are talking about something that is greatest of kind.....

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

could this mean exactly the tribulation and rapture? at that time phrase seems to support post-trib as it implies people are delievered at that time of trouple meaning not before it.

 

[jari]

just 2 questions if it is post tribulation why do we need to keep watch then, now we know when He is coming?

You don't know when He's coming but Jesus told to learn parable of fig tree, when you see all these things happening know its near....

second are you talking about His 2nd coming or the rapture of the church?
and I have read all the posts seems like you are talking about two different things here, His 2nd coming and the rapture of His church.

well 2nd coming is also when rapture occurs.

but Mike has his theory of two raptures in mat 24.

 

[Brother Mike]

Wrath of God:

Thank you David for bringing that out!! To be honest I have been lumping the "Wrath of God" into the whole horrible mess of the Tribulation.

Many have already argued about what day "The day of the Lord is"
It appears to be A) The Lord has his day with disobedient man on earth, meaning an extended period. B) Indication as the scripture I posted that the Lord returns and it's judgement time.

Weighing scripture it may be more correct to say it's judgement time. (Now that you made me go back and grab those scriptures again David)
Isaiah talks of the Stars being rolled up as a scroll, dramatic effects take place on the release of that six seal.

We still have the Horrible trumpets, seals, vials though God is pouring out on this earth during the Tribulation.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The day of the Lord takes place now that you pointed it out right after the sixth seal is released. Rev 6 calls it the Wrath of the Lamb, judgement day.

The whole period of tribulation though is the wrath of God on mankind. God's Wrath is taking place before the day of the Lord.

Danial said we shall be delivered at that time (Dan 12:1) It's a period this earth has never seen.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Any wrath of God on this earth, we are told we are delivered. His son is coming to get us. His wrath starts way before the sixth seal is released.

Not to mention, the Church is not mentioned one time during the tribulation. The language of the Church is not there. We would have been a major force and mentioned several times in tribulation if we were there. Only one angel is mentioned spreading a Gospel, the testimony of Jesus.

Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you, the gates of Hell shall not prevail. God has never failed to perform his word in the lives of those that will believe. We can't be there, or else God has to break his Word to us as the devil is given power over the saints that are here.

The devil will never have power over the Body of Christ.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[shoutoutloud]

I was doing some heavy reading into pretribulation and post tribulation and the pretribulation was started by John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) before then it was not even thought of. Just a little back ground into it.

 

[jari]

Not to mention, the Church is not mentioned one time during the tribulation. The language of the Church is not there. We would have been a major force and mentioned several times in tribulation if we were there. Only one angel is mentioned spreading a Gospel, the testimony of Jesus.

this is a false interpreation of rev. Book of rev is full of Christians persecuation.
the word "Church" or related words may not been mentioned but people ready to die for Jesus are. And only christians die for Jesus.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The two witnesses Special witnesses as well:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Perhaps the most clearest and undeniable scripture about Christians during revelation is about Beast and the Mark and the Saints.

(Rev 13:15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

But Christians are there with patiance:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So the end conclusion is that these saints (at least some of them get killed because they didn't worship the beast and take its mark):

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Brother Mike]

Saints:

Jari:

How do you get the Term saints to mean The anointed body of Christ?

You use the Term Christians, but that word is never mentioned in those scriptures you gave. Saint was also used in the OT before Christians came.

So where do you come up with this changing of Saints to mean Christians?

Christian, or Christ-ian. Christianos means a follower of Christ. Those anointed of God, or those that follow after the Holy Spirit and His anointing.

Paul's missions was to follow, and obtain Christ.

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Christ means Jesus the anointed one and his anointing for us. Paul was after greater manifestations of that Anointing. He counted everything else worthless compared to the presence of God and that anointing.

We can do all things through that Anointing. The Holy Spirit.

So what your trying to do Jari is change the word saints, to mean the Anointed body of Christ, then your trying to remove the Power of the Holy Spirit, the greater one in us so that Satan can have power over us. That is impossible, because He will never leave us or forsake us.

How can you with Clear conscience remove the Holy Spirit, and our authority making what the Lord said to be a lie?

I am just trying to understand that.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Jari:

How do you get the Term saints to mean The anointed body of Christ?

You use the Term Christians, but that word is never mentioned in those scriptures you gave. Saint was also used in the OT before Christians came.

So where do you come up with this changing of Saints to mean Christians?

easily they have testimony of Jesus christ. They are washed clean in Blood of the lamb.

Rev 12:11, Rev 20:4

 

[jari]

So what your trying to do Jari is change the word saints, to mean the Anointed body of Christ, then your trying to remove the Power of the Holy Spirit, the greater one in us so that Satan can have power over us. That is impossible, because He will never leave us or forsake us.

when do you think i have done this? i certainly havent.....

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

This discussion is becoming more interesting as we travel through the book of Revelations.

In your previous post you made a number of points, such as this;

"The whole period of tribulation though is the wrath of God on mankind.
God's Wrath is taking place before the day of the Lord."

Mike, God's wrath is also evident in the Old Testament. This is a generalization,
I quoted the passages that refer to a specific Judgment Day and the specific Wrath of God on that day.

I was hoping to isolate the specific "Wrath of God" which occurs on Judgement Day as
being the specific Wrath that we are delivered from. That is what Paul is referring to in the passages I quoted.

Alas, you will not agree.

So let's examine chapter 19 of the book of Revelations, and compare it to 2 Thessalonians.
Both have the return of Christ as the subject.

Christ on a White Horse

Revelations 19

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

2 Thessalonians

7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Mike do you see these two accounts as identical.

The heavens open to reveal Jesus.

Jesus rides a white horse in both.

Both have armies following Jesus.

Both accounts occur on Judgment Day.

Both accounts mention the destructive punishment (Wrath of God).

Neither appearance is in secret, on the contrary this is the great and
terrifying Day of The Lord, the Day of Wrath, Judgement Day and singular Day of Wrath.

This is what we are saved from the day of wrath Mike.

 

[David777]

Hello.

2 Thessalonians 10

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be
admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among
you was believed.

Keeping the thread active.

 

[Brother Mike]

wrath.....

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

So, all of the other things of God's wrath is not really the main wrath, just a warm up. We don't escape that wrath right? Judgement on the Earth we have to endure?

If we are left here David, what effect does the anointed Church of God have on Satan's plan?


Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


I can see the separation of the day of the Lord, judgement day. The Wrath of the Lamb. Thank is very clear and thank you for that.

I also see all the rest of the mess going on as the wrath of God. All the plagues, the critters that come out of that smoking pit, the Water turning to Blood. We are told we are not appointed to go through any of that. There would be no reason to.

What chance would the Antichrist have, if Holy Spirit filled believers were left on this Earth?

Jesus Is Lord.