Why Pre-Trib is unbiblical

[jari]

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: - Mar 13:34-35​

the idea for pre-trib seems to come from Jesus command to watch. But Jesus actually told to watch not simply because we dont know the day of His return but because He also wanted us not to sleep but serve Him.

But also to have strength to flee the coming tribulation which date is also unknown.

(Luk 21:36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

so we actually watch for tribulation and His return.


Others have noted that this command to watch is actually for jews that Jesus will come to take later on after the tribulation but this cannot be, because salvation is only found in Christ.

But there are also other reason why the people who go through tribulation before His coming cannot be plain jews.
Such as:

1) They are brought to synagogues, but if they are them self jews why other jews drag them there? Luk 12:11
2) They have testimony of Jesus and they are to tell people that, which is something jews dont do. Mat 24:14
3) They have Holy spirit Luk 12:12, Mat 10:20

The events of tribulation and end times before Jesus coming are described in mat 24 and in other books of the gospels.


Mat 24 states that Immediately Jesus will return and His angels will pick up the Elect:

(Mat 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

(Mat 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Elect actually means Christians as all Christians are Elected (Chosen).
The word Chosen and Elected are usually from same greek word in the bible.


Also note that when Disciples asked Jesus about end of the world the Lord only mentioned He would return once.

(Mat 24:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

So considering the answer given to Disciples by Jesus which can only truthfully interest Christians I cant see it anyway possible that Jesus answer about Tribulation and His return wouldnt hold all the truth we need to know.


Some additional verses:

(Luk 21:15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

(Luk 21:27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

(Luk 21:31) So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.



(Mat 10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

(Mat 10:19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

(Mat 10:20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

​

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

This is exactly how I read those verses.

Jesus does not return multiple times, only once.

It seems so simple, I struggle with why people do
not see this Jari.

 

[jari]

This is exactly how I read those verses.

Jesus does not return multiple times, only once.

It seems so simple, I struggle with why people do
not see this Jari.

yes i wonder the same. not saying what i posted must be truth but can't see it any other way.
I posted this in bible study though so we can discuss.

(hope this one stays on topic as well)

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't stuggle.

This is exactly how I read those verses.

Jesus does not return multiple times, only once.

It seems so simple, I struggle with why people do
not see this Jari.

It is very simple indeed. Jesus speaks to the Jews, tells them to pray this day won't be on the Sabbath, tells them in Judea to flee.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus comes with the Angels in great power and glory, it's dark, the moon and sun has changed, mans hearts fail them. All the tribes of Israel that are left mourn.

No confusion when he comes back. the sixth seal is released, the last angelic trumpet is blown. He is on his way Immediately.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The angels are here, there is a great sound of a trumpet. (Seventh angelic trumpet blast of Rev? Hard to tell as trumpets start and end events) People are gathered by the Angels. The whole word can see, the whole world watches the sun put out, the moon goes blood red, they hear the trumpet across the glob. It's over.


2nd Event Jesus described:
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The gospel is preached all over the World, satellite is reaching the far corners. Many countries that have not let us in, have now allowed us to reach the people with the Gospel of Christ. It's happening as we speak. More and more doors are being opened.

Watch Israel!!!

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
When all the things Jesus spoke of come together, that generation needs to be ready. We are so close.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

No warning of watching for false Christ, or warning to flee. This event nobody knows the day or hour. It's as a thief in the Night, the thief gives no warning.

Many events line up, we believe the Gospel is preached all over the World, we seen some wars, but even in our camps, doubt spreads.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Where is the promise of his coming? Nothing has changed, everything is the same. How many times have people warned us it would be this year, and yet he never came. The gospel is reaching the globe, Israel had some wars and close calls, but nothing. The world even seems to be getting a little better........

THEN:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The message is to us, the Brothers and Sisters of the Lord. The ones that call Jesus, Lord. We call him Master, our King. Paul is speaking to the Body of Christ. The earth is saying peace and safety. Nothing has changed. Where is his coming?

We were not appointed to wrath, but to salvation!!!

Salvation:
so-tay-ree'-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

What happens next?

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

The first event, Jesus warned those connected to the Judea area, He warned those that keep the sabbath. Jesus was addressing the Jewish people.

This event is different. It's like the days of Noah, where everyone was just doing their own thing. Nobody knew a thing until Noah entered that Ark. As Peter said, things continue as before, as Paul said, they say peace and safety.

No tribulation has taken place yet!!! No sun going dark, no waters turned to blood, no Antichrist in Israel. Everything seems normal.

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The first event they knew. They all experienced the Tribulation all the way until the 6th seal was broken, and the sun and moon changed. Jesus came with the Angels in power and glory.


This event is as a thief.................. Just like Noah.


Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

No warning, no Jesus coming in the clouds with great power and glory, no sun going out, no blood red moon. People at just taken!!!!


Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

The first even Jesus addressed those that keep the Sabbath, those that live in Judea. He told them to flee!!! He said after you suffer the tribulation and it's over, I come back with the Angels.......

This second event is sudden, it's before destruction. It's addressed to those that called Jesus Lord, those that call him master, those that have chosen to serve him. It's us!!!

There are two separate events here.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[jari]

It is very simple indeed. Jesus speaks to the Jews, tells them to pray this day won't be on the Sabbath, tells them in Judea to flee.

i see that you have ignored my post.

i ask you not to post anymore to this thread since you have made no effort to respond to my explanation of why they cannot be jews but Christians.

becaus of this i think your conclusion is in error and i cannot excepted it unless you can respond to the points made in the original post about these people's status.

so please dont side track the thread to simply state your own beliefs but make response to answer the orginal post.

thank you.

 

[jari]

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

The first event, Jesus warned those connected to the Judea area, He warned those that keep the sabbath. Jesus was addressing the Jewish people.

This event is different. It's like the days of Noah, where everyone was just doing their own thing. Nobody knew a thing until Noah entered that Ark. As Peter said, things continue as before, as Paul said, they say peace and safety.

No tribulation has taken place yet!!! No sun going dark, no waters turned to blood, no Antichrist in Israel. Everything seems normal.

mat 24 talks about coming of Son of man. so they cant be seperate events as you describe.

(Mat 24:29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(Mat 24:30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


(Mat 24:37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

so if Jesus was talking about His coming why didnt He say these are two separate events in mat 24 as you claim?

how would the disciples ever have any change of understand Jesus if he talks of two separate events and makes no distinction whatsoever?

 

[Brother Mike]

Jari.

i see that you have ignored my post.

i ask you not to post anymore to this thread since you have made no effort to respond to my explanation of why they cannot be jews but Christians.

I responded to David's post, and I have clearly pinpointed to different times the Lord has returned. I already been over this with you before, and was not responding to your first post.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

I responded to David's post, and I have clearly pinpointed to different times the Lord has returned. I already been over this with you before, and was not responding to your first post.

Jesus Is Lord.

then please make a new topic to discuss with david.
i understand that you wanted to share your point of view but its off topic.
as you did not respond to the original post. (which by the way shows why you can't be right about them being jews..)

so can i ask that we keep on topic? i have already posted couple similar threads that all got sidetracked. so i wanted to start of fresh on this topic.

 

[Radzi]

Sometimes people may be talking about apples and oranges if they don't first establish definitions of what they are talking about. Someone please define "tribation". then we can all understand what "pre-trib" is. One dictionary defines it as "severe trial or suffering". for someone, the destruction of the temple around 70 A.D fits the definition of tribulation. for another, current persecution around the world today is tribulation. yet for another, only pain that has not been seen before can fit definition of tribulation.

One thing, we all can agree is that our Lord Jesus is coming for the second time, and we should be getting more ready for that glorious Day of the Lord.

 

[jari]

Sometimes people may be talking about apples and oranges if they don't first establish definitions of what they are talking about. Someone please define "tribation". then we can all understand what "pre-trib" is. One dictionary defines it as "severe trial or suffering". for someone, the destruction of the temple around 70 A.D fits the definition of tribulation. for another, current persecution around the world today is tribulation. yet for another, only pain that has not been seen before can fit definition of tribulation.

One thing, we all can agree is that our Lord Jesus is coming for the second time, and we should be getting more ready for that glorious Day of the Lord.

Good question Radzi. This tribulation we are talking about apparently is a great tribulation which has none in comparison:


(Mat 24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

I noticed that your reply was for my benefit not Jari.

Thanks Mike, may I draw your attention to the following questions
that the disciples asked Jesus.

1. When will the temple be torn down?
2. What will be the sign of your arrival?
3. What will be the signs of the end of the age?

Matthew 24
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples
came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one
stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to
him privately. “Tell us,” they said,
“when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

There are three questions that Jesus answers in Matthew 24.

This is how I have always read Matthew 24, in the context of the questions posed to Jesus.

How do you read these questions Mike?

Careful I have been gathering lots of green sticks.

 

[Brother Mike]

In Context with the Questions.

Right David!! It always good to start sometimes a few Chapters back even because it was man that put scripture numbers and divided it up in to chapters.

Jesus gave his Word to his disciples, as they gave the Word to the World. In fact it was Matthew by the Holy Spirit that gave this account to be written forever eternally as God's Word for all to see. I can see many things recorded, but not fully understood at the time, as the time was not yet.

Jesus gives them two accounts.

One he comes immediately after the tribulation. No question what day that will be, or when that happens. All the vials, seals, trumpets and signs will lead up to that very day.

He spoke of those that keep the Sabbath, and told them to flee.
then told them after all the destruction, he comes in a cloud of glory.

before this...... Wars, rumor of wars, famine, Earth Quakes that target major populace. (CNN did a science report on this. Major quakes are hitting cities and not just going into the ocean as they once did.)

Divers: Topos English topographic
specific places targeted, or as Thayers Greek says.

) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
1a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district

something interesting to look at compared to CNN's report of about Earth quakes just hitting major populaces.

Jesus said........... The end is not yet.

Peter says many will scoff at his coming.... These have not experienced yet the tribulation period. They have seen all the signs, but nothing............. (yet that is)

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Certainly nobody will question when tribulation comes. 1/3 of the Earth's water turning to blood, creatures coming out of smoking pits in the Earth. Everyone will know its the end and the coming of Jesus for final judgement is right around the corner.

Jesus said immediately after the tribulation he comes. We can pinpoint the day and hour after the six seal is released.

Then Jesus tells of a second event. This event is as the days of Noah. Nobody knew a thing until Noah entered the Ark and escaped. People continued doing what they have always done. People escape, one taken one left in the field. No coming in Glory in the clouds, no angels with sickles, no sun going dark. People are just taken, and as in the days of Noah, right after God's Judgement on man.

Peter said the same thing. People are just taken "BEFORE" the destruction. Just as Danial said, at that time the people shall be delivered that are written in the book.

Paul said the same thing to believers. As a thief, He comes. No warning but what Jesus said......... and the Gospel shall be preached all over the World.

I have many scripture witnesses pointing to two separate events.

One we know exactly when he comes.

the other He comes as a thief those found written in the book escape the wrath of God on earth. Just as in the days of Noah who where rescued and nobody else knew before it was to late. Then destruction as this world has never seen takes place. Tribulation.

Not to mention the church is missing from Rev 3-21 No gospel of Christ, no church language at all during tribulation. Why? We are not there.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

eter says many will scoff at his coming.... These have not experienced yet the tribulation period. They have seen all the signs, but nothing............. (yet that is)

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Certainly nobody will question when tribulation comes. 1/3 of the Earth's water turning to blood, creatures coming out of smoking pits in the Earth. Everyone will know its the end and the coming of Jesus for final judgement is right around the corner.

Jesus said immediately after the tribulation he comes. We can pinpoint the day and hour after the six seal is released.

there's no way to pintpoint Jesus return after tribulation. It was about this very return He said no one knows the hour.

I have many scripture witnesses pointing to two separate events.

One we know exactly when he comes.

the other He comes as a thief those found written in the book escape the wrath of God on earth. Just as in the days of Noah who where rescued and nobody else knew before it was to late. Then destruction as this world has never seen takes place. Tribulation.

Christians are not in darkness so that the day would caught us unaware. The world is caught unwares.
they are one and the same event.
your in error just because you apply this logic. but in reality one can be surprised and not know the date of Jesus return even tribulation would be ongoing. And perhaps we christians are to just understand that fact that when Sun and moon dont give light Jesus return will be right next happening. after the tribulation that is.

you failed to see that Jesus return was never meant to be hidden or secret for us christians still its like thief in the night.

Not to mention the church is missing from Rev 3-21 No gospel of Christ, no church language at all during tribulation. Why? We are not there.

oh gospel is preached along with the beast being there. you just need to look scripture more closely its all there....
it even talks about patiance of the saints.
so i hope you go back and reread again to find this out.

 

[David777]

Hello Mike.

In your reply you stated the following;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus comes with the Angels in great power and glory, it's dark, the moon
and sun has changed, mans hearts fail them. All the tribes of Israel that
are left mourn.

Notice the blue highlighted line, your comment I think on Mat 24:30.

There seems to be a problem here, it says "the tribes of the earth".

Please explain?

 

[jari]

He spoke of those that keep the Sabbath, and told them to flee.
then told them after all the destruction, he comes in a cloud of glory.

this is erronous interpreation bro. Jesus never excluded His audience to jews. He was infact speaking to disciples.
Please read my original post where i covered this and dont repeat this error of thinking they are jews. Scripture is clear Jesus was talking about people who spread the Gospel and Have Holy Spirit.

God bless you

 

[jari]

Thanks Mike, may I draw your attention to the following questions
that the disciples asked Jesus.

When will the temple be torn down?
What will be the sign of your arrival?
What will be the signs of the end of the age?

its undeniable that Disciples specifically asked about Jesus return. And that Jesus answer was infact about His return.
Now i think its bold to state Jesus was actually talking about His "returns" instead of single return.

to think Jesus talks about His return but does not mention anything about there being two returns?
why would Lord be using incorrect form of speech talking about return but meaning two instances?

this goes to say that Jesus doesn't talk us straight but its one of those secret speeches which only the very wise and informed scholars figure out that when Jesus says one he means two.

 

[David777]

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,
we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by
the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or
by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the
rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

...8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow
with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I have no other way of reading these verses Mike.

This concerns the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, all in context.

Why Jari do they try and complicate such a simple prophecy?

 

[Furious_Love]

It really does sadden me to see such division amongst the body of Christ.

This site is becoming more about ourselves being right veiled in courtesy. Rather than Loving Jesus and our neighbour as ourselves. :-/

 

[David777]

Hello fallen.

I could not agree more with what you said.

Further, it saddens you but crushes me.

That is why so many spend so much time
addressing faulty interpretations.

In 1 Thess 5:2-3, we are told that "the day of the Lord will
come like a thief in the night. While people are saying 'peace and safety',
destruction will come on them suddenly". The popular interpretation of
these verses is that Jesus can surprise the church at any moment by
returning to secretly rapture them. This belief comes from failing to read
the next verse 1 thess 5:4 says, "But you brothers, are not in darkness
so that this day should surprise you like a thief".

What could be simpler than this fallen, why do they argue fallen
please tell me why?

 

[Brother Mike]

Division:

fallen

It really does sadden me to see such division amongst the body of Christ.

This site is becoming more about ourselves being right veiled in courtesy. Rather than Loving Jesus and our neighbour as ourselves. :-/

Fallen, there is no division here.

Paul concerning the body of Christ:

Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

There is nothing there about agreeing with each other, we are told though to honor and prefer each other. Dissimulation would cause us to split, get angry, and not converse with one another, not respecting each others realationship with the Lord, or the time we all spend in the Word because we do love the same Jesus, wish to grow.

Even in bible studies in Prison, there were many different brothers, some even not believing in tongues, which I refrained while in prayer with them. We still got together, still prayed together, still supported each other.

I go to great lengths to watch members putting down one another for what they personally see in the Word. I have temporarily banned 4 this month alone for making cutting remarks toward others. I will not tolerate a superior religious spirit.

Since we all see through a glass darkly, not having full and perfect knowledge of everything, we can discuss things of different views and revelations in hopes to see things we once did not see.

Tribes:
David I can assume (I don't fully know what tribes Jesus spoke of) but assume that it would mean each nation, or group of people. He could have referred to what is (almost) always referred to as one of the 12 tribes.

Jari:

this is erronous interpreation bro. Jesus never excluded His audience to jews. He was infact speaking to disciples.
Please read my original post where i covered this and dont repeat this error of thinking they are jews. Scripture is clear Jesus was talking about people who spread the Gospel and Have Holy Spirit.

Right Brother, The Word is for everyone. I don't see an exclusion either. What I see is a set of instructions for those that do keep the Sabbath, and those that hail from the area of Judea.

I see him coming immediately after the tribulation which is a time the Earth has never seen. Destruction and death come in the wrath of God dealing with man.

Then I see Him speaking about the days of Noah, where one is taken before the destruction. He then goes on to speak to those that consider him Lord. I gave other supporting scripture for both instances. In this instance we just see people taken as a thief, and suddenly. Our Lord personally comes for his Church first.

His coming after the tribulation is not like a thief, It's loud, and the earth is filled with his Glory. Mans heart fail them, the very heavens change. Man that are left have gone through a time this earth has never seen.

Jesus Is Lord.