KittyLinda
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Why Christians Don't Pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Rev Autrey
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Curtis
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2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
All three persons of the Godhead are found in these scriptures. God the Father, God the Son and God Holy Spirit.
The only “distinctions” between the members of the Godhead are in how they relate to each other! All members of the Godhead are coequal in being, but subordinate in roles that each member does.
No wherein scripture do we find Jesus sending his Father to do anything. It is always the Father (originator) who sends his Son and or the Holy Spirit to create, give life, Wisdom, and or understanding.
If Jesus is not eternally subordinate to the Father in role, then the Father is not eternally the Father, neither would the Son be eternally the Son which would mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit never eternally existed.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
All three persons of the Godhead are found in these scriptures. God the Father, God the Son and God Holy Spirit.
The only “distinctions” between the members of the Godhead are in how they relate to each other! All members of the Godhead are coequal in being, but subordinate in roles that each member does.
No wherein scripture do we find Jesus sending his Father to do anything. It is always the Father (originator) who sends his Son and or the Holy Spirit to create, give life, Wisdom, and or understanding.
If Jesus is not eternally subordinate to the Father in role, then the Father is not eternally the Father, neither would the Son be eternally the Son which would mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit never eternally existed.
KittyLinda
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Indeed, how can someone read these verses and still deny the truth. I am praying for those people. This confusion is not from God.
Curtis
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I believe it has to do with someone who is really willing to do God's will, and if they are, then God will reveal His truths to them.
Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Rev Autrey
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Dear B-A-C:
I will answer your question in the most gentle way.
If you read this verse carefully, you will see that the word "Jesus" in in parenthesis. And according to literary scholars, "Parentheses are added by someone other than the original writer to clarify the information. That is to say, parentheses are often used to clarify a noun that a pronoun has replaced, or to add some missing words that will make a sentence grammatically correct."
In other words, though parenthesis are not part of the original text, they do make the text more readable, and is an accepted benefit by most Bible scholars. I am surprised that you as a literary student don't know this. This means that as the Bible insist in other places, Jesus is indeed the God the who is speaking here!
See, as as you very well know, Jesus has not been preached as the God of the Bible by mainline preachers for at least 1700 years. This is why I see so much resistance when I preach his name. So again, let's not try to attack Jesus by trying to discredit me. Look up the literary use of parentheses for yourself!
But for the sake of the Gospel, let's consider a few Scriptures to prove that the prophets wrote about Jesus:
In Zechariah 12:10 YHWH God says this of himself: "Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for me as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for me as for a firstborn son who has died." Now even the most harden person against Jesus can see that YHWH God is proclaiming himself as Jesus of the New Testament, the one who bled and died for our sins. And too, all we have to do is look at what Jesus said of himself in the Upper Room to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and look at my hands. … don't be faithless any longer. Believe! Translated: Just believe that I am he!
Jesus said to the Jews in John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." The Jews replied in the next verse: "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Then Jesus said to them: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am." or as one scholar translates: "I am he!"
See, these verses have been in the Bible for a long time. But because we are so resistant to Jesus being our God, we choose not to believe what they say. Or to put it another way, we chose to believe what our preachers say about Jesus instead of believing what Jesus says about himself. Jesus says it best in Habakkuk 1:5: "Behold you among the nations, and regard, and wonder and be astonished: for I will work a work in your days, which you will not believe, though it be told you."
I will give you two more Scriptures to prove my point:
Peter said this to the people in 1 Peter 1:10-11: "This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this glorious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ's suffering and great glory afterward."
Now I ask you, how could the prophets of old have the Spirit of Christ in them if the God they worshiped as YHWH God was not indeed Jesus the Christ, the one we worship? The answer is: they could not!
This same Peter said to the Jews in Acts 3:12-15 after he and John had healed the lame man: "Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life. …"
Did you notice that? Peter called Jesus "the author of life" just like John said he was in John 1:3. This means that he knew that Jesus was the God who said "let there be light" in Genesis 1 verse 3. And too, since he had been with Jesus for 3 1/2 years, he must have asked Jesus to verify his identity, and he did! And too, he knew that Jesus was the God who appeared to Abraham on the plains of Mamre just as I am saying he is. And John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, agreed with everything Peter said!
See before you can know what is wrong you must know what is right. And the only way to know what is right is to go back to the Bible and see what the original Scriptures say. And this is what I am doing for you now. Meaning, it is not your fault or my fault that the original truth of the identity of Jesus has been lost over the years. But it is our fault if we now turn away from Jesus after the truth of him has been made known to us.
So yes God is a Trinity, but the Trinity is not in the dividing of himself into 2 or 3 parts. The Trinity is in the way he speaks about himself when he speaks to us.
So when Jesus says the "Father sent me", or "I go to the Father," he is speaking of himself by his other name. And when he says "In my Fathers house", he is speaking of himself, too. Only in the third person. In fact, every time he mentions the Father, he is speaking of himself by his other name. The same is true when he speaks of the Holy Spirit.
So all that John 1:1 is saying when it says of Jesus: "... he existed in the beginning with God" is what I have been saying all along, that God has 2 other names besides Jesus: the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only he is saying it in a parabolic or metaphoric way!
See, we have never been told this!
(And by the way, the term "Son of God" is a metaphor, too. Jesus uses it to describe his stay on earth as a man in human flesh (Psalms 2.) And too, this combats all the other false Son's of God that we we in the Pagan world.)
See again, Jesus loves you very much. He is proving this to us right now by giving us air to breath, food to eat, water to drink, and letting us live in this glorious land to satisfy our needs and make us happy, an allowing you to hear his Gospel for the first time. But as he said of himself in Matthew 11:25-26: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way."
And then he made this famous statement to you and me: "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest!
Stay safe.
Rev. Autrey
Rev Autrey
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(Rev Autrey said:
I am writing this discourse to the Christians who claim Jesus as their Lord and Master, but will not pray to him as their God. Instead, they direct their prayers to another being they call God.
If you think I was overreacting, then just read his first line)
Dear KittyLinda:
I will be as gentle with you as I can with my response because this is what Jesus wants me to do. See, Jesus loves you very much and wants to have fellowship with you. This is especially true in these difficult times we are in!
You said in your reply, "Rev Autrey said: I am writing this discourse to the Christians who claim Jesus as their Lord and Master, but will not pray to him as their God. Instead, they direct their prayers to another being they call God...If you think I was overreacting, then just read his first line."
But they do pray to another being other than Jesus! Just listen to the prayers of most TV Preachers and you will see what I mean. As I said, they pray to another being they call Father God. Or, just listen to the prayers of the preachers in your own church. They pray to this other being, too. Or better yet, just ask them why they pray this way and they will say that sense Jesus prayed to Father God, they do too.
See, what they are doing wrong is misunderstanding Jesus as God. See, Jesus was God long before he made the angels, man, or any other creature. This means that since there was no one else for God to talk to, God counseled with himself, or as we might say, he talked among himself. (Isaiah 40:14, Job 15:8, Ephesians 1: 11) How long this had been going on I don't know. Only the endless ages of the past can shed light on this.
So when Jesus prayed to the Father in the Garden, this was a continuation of the conversation God has had with himself from eternity. We should understand this because we as people made in his image do this all the time. We say to ourselves "should I go or should I do this" and we answer "yes you should."
To put it in plain English then, God as Jesus asks himself as the Father, "Are you willing for me to do die for these people?" And God as the Father says to God as Jesus, "Yes, I am." And God as Jesus consents and goes to the cross in our place. And as I have often said, only God as Jesus, being a man too, says it out loud in the form of a prayer. This teaches us that we too should pray in times of stress.
But as you can see, it is always God as Jesus doing the talking.
Here's the point. For the past 1700 years mainline Church goers have prayed to Father God as the only true God. Since to them, the Father is a being separate from the Jesus, he in their minds is a bigger and better God than Jesus. Or they say that Jesus is only the Son, or an emanation from God. Therefore we pray to the Father. But as you can see from what I have just told you, they are wrong. Jesus calls such a mistake on our part the Abomination of Desolation that we should flee from. Or that if we stay with it our salvation is in danger!
Jesus says it like this in Matthew 24:15-22: "The time will come when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about: the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place where it ought not to be-reader pay attention! Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. …For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again. In fact, unless that time of tribulation is shortened, the entire human race will be lost. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones."
In other words, the light of Jesus and his Gospel message will almost be gone. In verse 29 Jesus says it will be as if the sun had been darkened, the light of the moon was put out, and the stars had fallen from the sky. But immediately afterward the light of Jesus will be seen again as he returns to earth from heaven.
See, our preachers are so steeped in religiosity and other strong religious beliefs that they have inherited from those who came before them that they try to maintain it at all cost, even in the face of the plain teachings of the Scriptures. And they will do so even now after they have been told the truth. But this too was predicted by the Holy Scriptures long ago (Habakkuk 1:5), so we should not be surprised. So let's not resort to name calling as some of us are prone to do. This is not what Jesus wants from us.
So always remember that Jesus loves you very much. He proved this when he came from heaven to earth and died in your place on the cross that Friday afternoon. And he also proves this by giving you life and breath, and rain in due season, and by giving you sunshine to keep you warm and fresh air to breath. And by letting you live in a glorious land so you can have a good life. And now he wants to have a personal relationship with you just the way he did in the Garden of Eden before the fall, when we pulled away from him. This is the ultimate goal of his Gospel message!
As it says in Revelation 19:10: "...For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”
Take Care and Stay safe.
Rev. Autrey
I am writing this discourse to the Christians who claim Jesus as their Lord and Master, but will not pray to him as their God. Instead, they direct their prayers to another being they call God.
If you think I was overreacting, then just read his first line)
Dear KittyLinda:
I will be as gentle with you as I can with my response because this is what Jesus wants me to do. See, Jesus loves you very much and wants to have fellowship with you. This is especially true in these difficult times we are in!
You said in your reply, "Rev Autrey said: I am writing this discourse to the Christians who claim Jesus as their Lord and Master, but will not pray to him as their God. Instead, they direct their prayers to another being they call God...If you think I was overreacting, then just read his first line."
But they do pray to another being other than Jesus! Just listen to the prayers of most TV Preachers and you will see what I mean. As I said, they pray to another being they call Father God. Or, just listen to the prayers of the preachers in your own church. They pray to this other being, too. Or better yet, just ask them why they pray this way and they will say that sense Jesus prayed to Father God, they do too.
See, what they are doing wrong is misunderstanding Jesus as God. See, Jesus was God long before he made the angels, man, or any other creature. This means that since there was no one else for God to talk to, God counseled with himself, or as we might say, he talked among himself. (Isaiah 40:14, Job 15:8, Ephesians 1: 11) How long this had been going on I don't know. Only the endless ages of the past can shed light on this.
So when Jesus prayed to the Father in the Garden, this was a continuation of the conversation God has had with himself from eternity. We should understand this because we as people made in his image do this all the time. We say to ourselves "should I go or should I do this" and we answer "yes you should."
To put it in plain English then, God as Jesus asks himself as the Father, "Are you willing for me to do die for these people?" And God as the Father says to God as Jesus, "Yes, I am." And God as Jesus consents and goes to the cross in our place. And as I have often said, only God as Jesus, being a man too, says it out loud in the form of a prayer. This teaches us that we too should pray in times of stress.
But as you can see, it is always God as Jesus doing the talking.
Here's the point. For the past 1700 years mainline Church goers have prayed to Father God as the only true God. Since to them, the Father is a being separate from the Jesus, he in their minds is a bigger and better God than Jesus. Or they say that Jesus is only the Son, or an emanation from God. Therefore we pray to the Father. But as you can see from what I have just told you, they are wrong. Jesus calls such a mistake on our part the Abomination of Desolation that we should flee from. Or that if we stay with it our salvation is in danger!
Jesus says it like this in Matthew 24:15-22: "The time will come when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about: the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place where it ought not to be-reader pay attention! Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. …For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again. In fact, unless that time of tribulation is shortened, the entire human race will be lost. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones."
In other words, the light of Jesus and his Gospel message will almost be gone. In verse 29 Jesus says it will be as if the sun had been darkened, the light of the moon was put out, and the stars had fallen from the sky. But immediately afterward the light of Jesus will be seen again as he returns to earth from heaven.
See, our preachers are so steeped in religiosity and other strong religious beliefs that they have inherited from those who came before them that they try to maintain it at all cost, even in the face of the plain teachings of the Scriptures. And they will do so even now after they have been told the truth. But this too was predicted by the Holy Scriptures long ago (Habakkuk 1:5), so we should not be surprised. So let's not resort to name calling as some of us are prone to do. This is not what Jesus wants from us.
So always remember that Jesus loves you very much. He proved this when he came from heaven to earth and died in your place on the cross that Friday afternoon. And he also proves this by giving you life and breath, and rain in due season, and by giving you sunshine to keep you warm and fresh air to breath. And by letting you live in a glorious land so you can have a good life. And now he wants to have a personal relationship with you just the way he did in the Garden of Eden before the fall, when we pulled away from him. This is the ultimate goal of his Gospel message!
As it says in Revelation 19:10: "...For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”
Take Care and Stay safe.
Rev. Autrey
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