Who can and cannot be saved.
Member
I would be truly shocked if you said you don’t feel sorry for others who suffer. But I’m interested in how you treat God in light of that suffering. You are naturally grateful for your escape from the car wreck (along with countless other things, I’m sure). Are you grateful to him for the suffering of others? If you think his own reasons are beyond our understanding, and any of his acts deserve gratitude, don’t they all? I know that sounds absurd. I’m not angry at God or the world for the existence of suffering. I disapprove of the behavior of others when it knowingly, or negligently, causes suffering. Thought if the 2004 Tsunami does not provoke any anger in me. Plenty of sorrow and regret (that I don’t think I did as much as I might have to help in the wake of that horror). If I believed in a God who is responsible for (well) EVERYTHING, I expect the tsunami would make me very angry indeed. I’m not sure if this is leading to another question. But there are my thoughts on that.
But, you bring up the tale of the Garden of Eden. If you’re interested I’m happy to discuss lots of details of the scripture. For instance, the snake isn’t identified as Satan in Genesis. I know it is, later in the NT. But the Bible just isn’t consistent about it. For instance, God curses the snake to crawl on its belly the rest of its days. But, afterwards, when we see Satan for the first time, in Job, He appears and tells God he’s been walking around on Earth. The original Hebrew word used is specifically a reference to bipedal locomotion. So, if he WAS the snake in Paradise, God’s curse did not affect him “all the rest of his days.”
But I’d like to ask your opinion on a different detail you raise. You say the snake LIED to Adam and Eve. I’ve never understood that to be the case. I agree he manipulated them into breaking God’s law (which raises whole other questions to me about who is to blame for the whole episode), but I don’t see lying as a part of that manipulation. would you stick with that choice of word? If so, could you please paraphrase what you think that lie was?
Loyal
OKAY -- 'he' purposely deceived / manipulated Eve into disobeying God.
How do I Treat God? God is Sovereign -- His ways are Higher than our ways. I"ve never thought of God as someone I Treat in any particular way. Maybe I Should.
And I know that part of life is both the good, bad and the ugly. We are all human beings living in a fallen world. From way back in the beginning -- satan has been wanting / trying to thwart every plan of God's. Even back before Lucifer was thrown out of heaven and became satan -- Lucifer was the bright and morning star. He was God's 2nd in command. But Lucifer was satisfied with That, in his heart he was Proud of his looks and wanted More. He wanted to Be God. or just Like God. Only thing Is , is that God Is already God. And He's the only One of His kind. He created everything. Well -- the Godhead did.
God Allows what He chooses to Allow. He has His over-all plan for this world / our lives. A lot of times - during times of trouble - distress in a person's life -- they look to God for help when they would not have other-wise. God wants us to come to Him with and about Everything in our lives. And most recently the mass shootings -- people all of a sudden were in eternity. Shock ,horror and all kinds of reactions. So, how many of those killed were believers? Only themselves, their friends, family and God knows. But it is Probably getting people to think about spiritual things more now. And that's what we Need to be doing. Am I Prepared for Eternity Now.
And when bad things Do happen -- we end up learning more about ourselves. And Other people see how we react.
As for the garden of Eden -- it's identified as a serpent. Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, "You small not eat of every tree of the garden'?" We read an ongoing conversation between that serpent and Eve. There's no mentioned of anyone being surprised by a talking serpent.
And then -- after the fact -- God was handing out punishment. Eve had just told the Lord God that the serpent had deceived her and so she ate some of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
The punishment for the serpent -- it would now be more cursed than all cattle. The serpent would Now be on it's belly eating dust. And then comes the part about the enmity between the serpent and the woman. Between 'your' seed and 'her' seed. That he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." Will admit that I've never really understood that passage. the part about bruising of head and heal. / your seed and her seed.
There are those who believe that satan entered into a snake and had a conversation with her. And others believe that satan took on the form Of a snake. And there Are some beautiful , huge snakes -- serpents -- the King Cobra is one.
Well -- we don't see any snakes/ serpents walking around. They are All on the ground slithering around. And some are deadly poisenous and some are harmless garden snakes. And Texas is known for it's rattle snakes. Apparently God decided to punish the world of snakes Because satan decided to use one 'in the beginning to deceive Eve'.
And, yes, satan Is seen again in first part of book of Job. So -- satan is a master deceiver and manipulator.
The point of the whole episode is that satan Is a liar // a deceiver // manipulator and will do Anything to get us to disobey God and follow satan, himself. And in the End -- it will be straight to hell. The lake of fire and brimstone. And That will be forever. Planting that seed of doubt in Eve's mind. And satan Also knew that 'we' like to 'know it all'. Not in a smart-elec way necessarily -- but we Do like to have all the information possible. So - Eve's curiosity was pricked -- what would it be like to be Like God and all of His knowledge. Knowing both the good and the evil. What could be so wrong with That? So -- she eats and shares with Adam and the world hasn't been the same since. From good to not so good and plain evil. And satan probably Loves it. HE sees all sorts of people following him right to their eternal horror.
Time for lunch -- no apples / fruit please.
How do I Treat God? God is Sovereign -- His ways are Higher than our ways. I"ve never thought of God as someone I Treat in any particular way. Maybe I Should.
And I know that part of life is both the good, bad and the ugly. We are all human beings living in a fallen world. From way back in the beginning -- satan has been wanting / trying to thwart every plan of God's. Even back before Lucifer was thrown out of heaven and became satan -- Lucifer was the bright and morning star. He was God's 2nd in command. But Lucifer was satisfied with That, in his heart he was Proud of his looks and wanted More. He wanted to Be God. or just Like God. Only thing Is , is that God Is already God. And He's the only One of His kind. He created everything. Well -- the Godhead did.
God Allows what He chooses to Allow. He has His over-all plan for this world / our lives. A lot of times - during times of trouble - distress in a person's life -- they look to God for help when they would not have other-wise. God wants us to come to Him with and about Everything in our lives. And most recently the mass shootings -- people all of a sudden were in eternity. Shock ,horror and all kinds of reactions. So, how many of those killed were believers? Only themselves, their friends, family and God knows. But it is Probably getting people to think about spiritual things more now. And that's what we Need to be doing. Am I Prepared for Eternity Now.
And when bad things Do happen -- we end up learning more about ourselves. And Other people see how we react.
As for the garden of Eden -- it's identified as a serpent. Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, "You small not eat of every tree of the garden'?" We read an ongoing conversation between that serpent and Eve. There's no mentioned of anyone being surprised by a talking serpent.
And then -- after the fact -- God was handing out punishment. Eve had just told the Lord God that the serpent had deceived her and so she ate some of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
The punishment for the serpent -- it would now be more cursed than all cattle. The serpent would Now be on it's belly eating dust. And then comes the part about the enmity between the serpent and the woman. Between 'your' seed and 'her' seed. That he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." Will admit that I've never really understood that passage. the part about bruising of head and heal. / your seed and her seed.
There are those who believe that satan entered into a snake and had a conversation with her. And others believe that satan took on the form Of a snake. And there Are some beautiful , huge snakes -- serpents -- the King Cobra is one.
Well -- we don't see any snakes/ serpents walking around. They are All on the ground slithering around. And some are deadly poisenous and some are harmless garden snakes. And Texas is known for it's rattle snakes. Apparently God decided to punish the world of snakes Because satan decided to use one 'in the beginning to deceive Eve'.
And, yes, satan Is seen again in first part of book of Job. So -- satan is a master deceiver and manipulator.
The point of the whole episode is that satan Is a liar // a deceiver // manipulator and will do Anything to get us to disobey God and follow satan, himself. And in the End -- it will be straight to hell. The lake of fire and brimstone. And That will be forever. Planting that seed of doubt in Eve's mind. And satan Also knew that 'we' like to 'know it all'. Not in a smart-elec way necessarily -- but we Do like to have all the information possible. So - Eve's curiosity was pricked -- what would it be like to be Like God and all of His knowledge. Knowing both the good and the evil. What could be so wrong with That? So -- she eats and shares with Adam and the world hasn't been the same since. From good to not so good and plain evil. And satan probably Loves it. HE sees all sorts of people following him right to their eternal horror.
Time for lunch -- no apples / fruit please.
Member
The head/heal bruising thing is a reference to how humans and snakes have interacted ever since. It goes back even further than the dawn of our species. Primates like chimps and monkeys are born snake-phobic and will go to great lengths to kill one. “Adam” and “Eve” were “born” hating snakes and were instinctively driven to “bruise their heads” lest the snakes “bruise their heels.”
Anyway, here’s what I understand from what the serpent says to Eve. There are only two sentences. They are clear “truth statements” that are easy to understand and which can be easily verified:
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.” True. She survives long enough to beget the whole human race.
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” That’s exactly what happens. She shares some fruit with Adam ...: “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”
Same exact words of EYES, OPENED, and KNOWING/KNEW. The serpent told Eve what was going to happen and that’s what happens.
It did TRICK them into breaking the rules. But it didn’t lie. I think this poses a much more complicated relationship between humans, knowledge, nature and authority than most Genesis sermonizing I’ve ever heard.
But, back to my Job reference, when Satan enters, if he is the same character as the serpent in Eden, why do you suppose he isn’t crawling on his belly? And why doesn’t God complain about it?
Loyal
Back to your reference about Job -- satan / the demonic world can possess anything they want to -- except for born-again believers because 'we' already have the Holy Spirit indwelling'us'.
Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them. A challenge was presented. God gave satan permission to test Job with the loss of most everything he had and to see how Job would react.
So -- apparently satan was amongst some of the angels. The Lord asks him where he'd come from -- he'd been going to and fro on the earth and going back and forth from there. (sounds like he was bored) So - as part of the demonic world -- he could possess that snake / serpent. The world of snakes has suffered ever since. Satan , himself, will suffer for eternity.
Your comment about 'it going back further than the 'dawn of our species' sounds very evolutionary. Because 'we' are not off-spring of chimps and monkeys. 'We' are human beings. And it's true that apparently a biologist put human beings in the same catagory As Primates. However, 'we' the people are Not an extension of the animal world.
Those first two people that God created were apparently Not afraid of Or hating the serpent cause she was talking to it. Scripture gives no indication of fright or hatred for it. It Was part of the punishment For 'misleading' Eve and Adam into Disobeying God's instruction. Because the initial garden environment was one of innocence / trust.
Tricking someone into disobeying / manipulating / is just as bad as lying to them. In fact, maybe it's Worse. Tricking / lying to / a diabolical nature of a person.
Planting the seed of Doubt in Eve as to what God really Did say.
Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan also came among them. A challenge was presented. God gave satan permission to test Job with the loss of most everything he had and to see how Job would react.
So -- apparently satan was amongst some of the angels. The Lord asks him where he'd come from -- he'd been going to and fro on the earth and going back and forth from there. (sounds like he was bored) So - as part of the demonic world -- he could possess that snake / serpent. The world of snakes has suffered ever since. Satan , himself, will suffer for eternity.
Your comment about 'it going back further than the 'dawn of our species' sounds very evolutionary. Because 'we' are not off-spring of chimps and monkeys. 'We' are human beings. And it's true that apparently a biologist put human beings in the same catagory As Primates. However, 'we' the people are Not an extension of the animal world.
Those first two people that God created were apparently Not afraid of Or hating the serpent cause she was talking to it. Scripture gives no indication of fright or hatred for it. It Was part of the punishment For 'misleading' Eve and Adam into Disobeying God's instruction. Because the initial garden environment was one of innocence / trust.
Tricking someone into disobeying / manipulating / is just as bad as lying to them. In fact, maybe it's Worse. Tricking / lying to / a diabolical nature of a person.
Planting the seed of Doubt in Eve as to what God really Did say.
Member
I think it may come as no surprise, I am someone who one might say “believes” in evolution. To void confusion, I don’t say that myself. I say I don’t believe in anything. There are certain things I accept as fact. One of those is evolution. I promise I won’t try to convince you to believe it too. But, there’s a bunch of people out there who do believe in it and you might as well know the way they think. I like to learn how the faithful think. And there’s always a chance I may come across something that does lead me to faith. Pleae know anything I say here is just me riffing and I mean no offense.
I think attempts to read the Bible as a literal text book robs it of a lot of its beauty and meaning. I’ve never read it and thought it was trying to tell me the universe was actually made in seven days 6,000 years ago. To me, it offers a mythical (which does NOT mean “false”) way to see the world. The way whoever wrote the Bible viewed it. I take it as an introduction that gets the modern reader inside the mindset of an author(s) who lived 5 millennia ago. If anything in the Bible is important, then this is vital to its reading.
One of believers’ most common criticisms of evolution is the Bible says each creature brings forth after its kind. Yet we never see a fish giving birth to an amphibian or a reptile giving birth to a bird. But that’s not what evolution claims. Evolution proposes that one species can evolve into another over the course of many many generations through tiny, incremental alterations. Only after those minute changes accumulate over time do you have a creature that looks markedly different from its ancestor. This is no minor point. It is central. No mother ever gives birth to offspring that isn’t the same species as she is. Dogs ONLY have puppies and cats ONLY have kittens. Funny thing is, that’s exactly what it says in the Bible, bringing forth offer their kind. It doesn’t say it’s IMPOSSIBLE for one kind to evolve into a new, evolved kind.
Adam’s curse is to labor for his daily bread. This is as true today as it was back then. Eve’s curse is to suffer miserably in childbirth. Which still happens. Isn’t it odd that evolution would “design” such an unpleasant and dangerous mean’s of reproduction? Other animals do not suffer as we in childbirth. How do “evolutionists” explain this pretty obvious stupidity? Well, according to the definitions of science we are animals AND we are apes. (You can call yourself anything you like, but the list of diagnostic traits science classifies as “primate” all apply to you. It’s not like they made up the list of requirements to define what’s an ape and realized maybe they include humans. Those requirements were developed with humans in mind to INCLUDE humans. So, as I say, call
yourself whatever you like, but some science looks at you and sees a — very special — primate. ) Now, not all primates are the same. Some are squirrel monkeys, some at orangutans. The ones that are humans have evolved brains that are much larger (for their body mass) than any others. All evidence indicates this change occurred quite rapidly by evolution standards, and not all the rest of the human body kept pace. The theory of evolution found it was easier to re-design infant skulls so they collapse going through the birth canal than it was to enlarge a woman’s pelvis. And still humans suffer pain in birth despite this. So why do do humans mothers have this problem? Because of the knowledge and wisdom which distinguishes us from every other creature. The Bible offers a beautiful metaphor for precisely this process. Woman’s punishment for eating of the “forbidden” of the Tree of Knowledge is to give birth in pain and danger. But (to me) it loses its beauty if I have to accept a snake that talks and all humans sprang from one mated couple.
I love evolution and can go on and on but I won’t. If you ever have any questions about it, please let me know.
But the Bible’s real symbolic beauty goes far beyond an allegory of evolution. If one tries to argue the Bible is “literally” true, without flaw or contradiction, one winds up trying to say the smallest seed in nature is the mustard seed, which it is not, but Jesus said so while he was trying to make a point that had NOTHING to do with horticulture. That same person winds up arguing that Jesus had TERRIBLE medical expertise because he told people to pluck out an eye if it offendeth and that bad things like germs don’t enter the body through the mouth but through the mind. But Jesus never ran a medical clinic. When I read the Bible, I hear Jesus telling me that faith, if it’s sincere faith, can be the most powerful force in the universe, even if it’s as small as one of the smallest seeds you’ve ever seen; he says (to me) don’t be afraid to make a change, even the most drastic change, to lose something as dear to you as your own eyeball, if you know it is the right thing to do; he’s saying it doesn’t matter if you disease your body if you aren’t also mindful of what your mind takes in.
There are a lot of things in the Bible and in Jesus’s ministry I disagree with. But (to me) they are vastly richer and more meaningful as struggles to come to terms with living in a fraught world.
That might sound like some wishy washy atheist philosophy. But I think I have good reason for it. I take it from Jesus. In Matthew 13 he says, “ I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”
To me that sounds like people who read the words of the Bible and just accept them as they appear don’t get the true meaning and worth of them.
Anyway, at the very least I hope you can see I don’t just think of the Bible as pack of worthless superstitions.
Now, I’ll accept that demonkind can pretty much do whatever they want when it comes to dirty tricks. But when Satan appears in Job he has been “going to and fro in the world and WALKING up and down in it.” The verse uses the name “Satan,” in Hebrew “Shaitan,” meaning “adversary” or “challenger.” Job depicts him as God’s “faithful opposition.” He wasn’t wandering around in boredom. He was on the scout looking to brew up some trouble. And he comes back to the conference room in Heaven with a doozy.
But, for all Satan’s virtually unlimited powers, I don’t think they include being able to get up and WALK away from an “all the rest of your days” curse from God. And certainly not without God saying, “Hey, didn’t I curse you?” when they get together in Job.
If Satan WAS THE SERPENT, then how come otherwise innocent snakes still bear the curse he earned? If Satan and Lucifer are the same character, when did Lucifer rebel? Was it in the days before the Fall? If not, then was the serpent’s luring Eve to her (and our) doom NOT a transgression against God? The snake ruins God’s established order for the cosmos. To me THAT is one heck of a rebellion. If Satan IS the serpent of Eden and the actual instrument of ALL the world’s evil, is he also Pharoah? And Nebukadnazar? And Cain? Because, if so, there is no mention of it in the context of any of those Bible episodes.
All these “what if’s” go away if the speaking serpent is “just” a speaking serpent who broke the law and get his just desserts. And Satan, the adversary, the challenger, can be the SYMBOL of all that is corruption and evil. But he doesn’t have to be the literal cause of all these loose ends, loose ends which demand tying up. I’d rather devote my energies to studying what the Bible says about right and wrong.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to enter this dialog to give you a new hobby. Sorry to run on and on, and if you read the whole thing, THANK you. I would love to know what you think about any of it.
Loyal
@Kirby D. P. -- Hi -- there's been another gentlman on Forum very recently in this same conversation.
Over the years, I've had conversation with several people who are evolutionists / some are theistic evolutionists and some are atheistic evolutionists.
Are you saying that you , personally, Have read the Bible or have Not and are sharing what you've heard others comment about it.
Now -- since this thread of conversation is about who can and who cannot be saved - - a moderator might put this in another thread by itself. Or we Could get in the Conversation area.
The Bible / God's Word / is not really a text book. It Does contain lots of information on a variety of subjects.
Some things are meant to be taken literally -- most things are. It depends on if a person believes in the miraculous.
Genesis is the book of Beginnings. As in God created the heavens and the earth -- and, yes, in 6 literal , 24-hr days. Life operates on a 24-hr schedule / and our weeks consist of 7 days. And God's Word tells us exactly what was created on each of those first 6 days. "and the evening and morning were the 1st - 6th days. Nothing was created on the 7th day. God 'rested' on that day. He was giving us / mankind/ the example of working 6 days a week and taking 1 day to rest. To worship the God who created everything. Another 'beginning' would be of the Jewish race. The tribe of Judah / Jews / was one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
All of the planets rotate around the sun. I think it's kind of neat -- how orderly it all is.
God has given mankind His Word. Take a look at 2 Timothy 3:16 -- that tells us Why He's given it to us.
Lots of people love the poetic style of the Psalms and all the wise sayings in Proverbs.
Some of the books -- Major and Minor prophets -- well -- deeper reading. Part of Daniel is about Daniel and the den of lions. And part is fairly deeper reading / studying.
A good 'method' for reading the Bible -- well -- there are lots of Bible reading charts. Reading through the Bible in a year -- several chapters in Old and in New every day. The Important thing is To take time to read a chapter or two every day.
God gave us His word for a reason. To Read it.
Yes, an obvious 'thing' with animals / people -- 'we' reproduce one generation at a time. Animals mate only within their like kind. So -- over generations there will be minor alterations. But only probably in the size / coloration of That animal.
In people -- we reproduce - again - one generation at a time. And there Is a wide variety of sizes, colors -- but all will produce more People.
Okay -- in that one sentence -- BUT the Bible doesn't say it isn't IMPOSSIBLE. for a new kind to develop into a new evolved kind. And Then someone will say -- With God all things Are possible. And because God is omnipotent -- He has the power To do so. And all those things are true -- except for the fact that God has established boundaries -- we observe a boundary in 'nature'. Since animals mate only within it's kind -- there won't Be another kind 'evolving'.
The childbirth subject. Apparently Originally - women would have been -- or Eve originally Did experience painless childbirth. Since the fall of mankind -- there has been pain and suffering in the birthing process. But not all births Are terribly hard and painful. I've given birth to 4 babies. All of varying lengths / intensities of labor and delivery. One was a c-section. One was in the morning for only 4 hours -- good breathing techniques and It was over and done with fairly easily. But some mother Do under go Long, complicated pregnancies, labors and deliveries. That baby is Finally born and is loved dearly and the mom doesn't regret a minute of it.
Animals go through their fair share of discomfort / pain in the process of giving birth. Animal mothers and babies die in the process of birthing, too.
Way back in the history of biology -- someone decided to organize every single living creature we knew about. Gave Latin names, etc. -- whom ever that was -- decided to group human beings into the same classification as apes, Primates. That's probably because that group of people who did the classifying did Not go along with Adam and Eve being created special by God. And the animals He Also created for our use / enjoyment / just part of nature.
so -- 'evolution' redesigned an infant head........in order to re-design something -- it had to have a 'DesignEr. By the way -- that brings up a question-- who or what Got the evolutionary cycle of life Started.
Yes, you're right "Faith can be and Is the most powerful influence there Is" Without 'faith' it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11 is the 'by faith' chapter. Powerful stuff to read.
The concept of If Any part of your body is causing a serious problem for you. IF you have a bad habit of looking at porn -- your eyes are doing the looking. It's better to live without eyesight than to indulge your mind in porn. IF you hands are constantly reaching for the drink of alcohol or drugs -- to Do something about that. Maybe not chop them Off -- that would make it hard to eat or drink the Healthy things. Then again, medical science Could give you a feeding tube -- eliminating Your own hands from harming you.
God has given us a brain -- we are to be Careful / prudent as to what we put into our minds. Our hearts.
the Most important aspect of God's Word is when He gave us His own Son to die on the cross to take care of our sinfulness. Jesus Christ died on that cross, in our place, and He was buried and then He rose again bodily. That's what makes Christianity Possible. Our eternal life depends on how we , personally respond to That. We acknowledge our own sinfulness, that Scripture says 'we' are doomed to spend eternity in hell,. But Christ died for our sins. If we choose to accept God' gift of salvation then we can have eternal life in heaven instead of in hell. John 3:16 And when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouths -- thank God for his gift and accept it. Then we can become born-again believers. Everyone is born physically -- with whatever pain comes with it. But it's the spiritual birth that's needed.
And, yes, I Have read all of it. And I'm open to any comments You have in return.
Over the years, I've had conversation with several people who are evolutionists / some are theistic evolutionists and some are atheistic evolutionists.
Are you saying that you , personally, Have read the Bible or have Not and are sharing what you've heard others comment about it.
Now -- since this thread of conversation is about who can and who cannot be saved - - a moderator might put this in another thread by itself. Or we Could get in the Conversation area.
The Bible / God's Word / is not really a text book. It Does contain lots of information on a variety of subjects.
Some things are meant to be taken literally -- most things are. It depends on if a person believes in the miraculous.
Genesis is the book of Beginnings. As in God created the heavens and the earth -- and, yes, in 6 literal , 24-hr days. Life operates on a 24-hr schedule / and our weeks consist of 7 days. And God's Word tells us exactly what was created on each of those first 6 days. "and the evening and morning were the 1st - 6th days. Nothing was created on the 7th day. God 'rested' on that day. He was giving us / mankind/ the example of working 6 days a week and taking 1 day to rest. To worship the God who created everything. Another 'beginning' would be of the Jewish race. The tribe of Judah / Jews / was one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
All of the planets rotate around the sun. I think it's kind of neat -- how orderly it all is.
God has given mankind His Word. Take a look at 2 Timothy 3:16 -- that tells us Why He's given it to us.
Lots of people love the poetic style of the Psalms and all the wise sayings in Proverbs.
Some of the books -- Major and Minor prophets -- well -- deeper reading. Part of Daniel is about Daniel and the den of lions. And part is fairly deeper reading / studying.
A good 'method' for reading the Bible -- well -- there are lots of Bible reading charts. Reading through the Bible in a year -- several chapters in Old and in New every day. The Important thing is To take time to read a chapter or two every day.
God gave us His word for a reason. To Read it.
Yes, an obvious 'thing' with animals / people -- 'we' reproduce one generation at a time. Animals mate only within their like kind. So -- over generations there will be minor alterations. But only probably in the size / coloration of That animal.
In people -- we reproduce - again - one generation at a time. And there Is a wide variety of sizes, colors -- but all will produce more People.
Okay -- in that one sentence -- BUT the Bible doesn't say it isn't IMPOSSIBLE. for a new kind to develop into a new evolved kind. And Then someone will say -- With God all things Are possible. And because God is omnipotent -- He has the power To do so. And all those things are true -- except for the fact that God has established boundaries -- we observe a boundary in 'nature'. Since animals mate only within it's kind -- there won't Be another kind 'evolving'.
The childbirth subject. Apparently Originally - women would have been -- or Eve originally Did experience painless childbirth. Since the fall of mankind -- there has been pain and suffering in the birthing process. But not all births Are terribly hard and painful. I've given birth to 4 babies. All of varying lengths / intensities of labor and delivery. One was a c-section. One was in the morning for only 4 hours -- good breathing techniques and It was over and done with fairly easily. But some mother Do under go Long, complicated pregnancies, labors and deliveries. That baby is Finally born and is loved dearly and the mom doesn't regret a minute of it.
Animals go through their fair share of discomfort / pain in the process of giving birth. Animal mothers and babies die in the process of birthing, too.
Way back in the history of biology -- someone decided to organize every single living creature we knew about. Gave Latin names, etc. -- whom ever that was -- decided to group human beings into the same classification as apes, Primates. That's probably because that group of people who did the classifying did Not go along with Adam and Eve being created special by God. And the animals He Also created for our use / enjoyment / just part of nature.
so -- 'evolution' redesigned an infant head........in order to re-design something -- it had to have a 'DesignEr. By the way -- that brings up a question-- who or what Got the evolutionary cycle of life Started.
Yes, you're right "Faith can be and Is the most powerful influence there Is" Without 'faith' it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11 is the 'by faith' chapter. Powerful stuff to read.
The concept of If Any part of your body is causing a serious problem for you. IF you have a bad habit of looking at porn -- your eyes are doing the looking. It's better to live without eyesight than to indulge your mind in porn. IF you hands are constantly reaching for the drink of alcohol or drugs -- to Do something about that. Maybe not chop them Off -- that would make it hard to eat or drink the Healthy things. Then again, medical science Could give you a feeding tube -- eliminating Your own hands from harming you.
God has given us a brain -- we are to be Careful / prudent as to what we put into our minds. Our hearts.
the Most important aspect of God's Word is when He gave us His own Son to die on the cross to take care of our sinfulness. Jesus Christ died on that cross, in our place, and He was buried and then He rose again bodily. That's what makes Christianity Possible. Our eternal life depends on how we , personally respond to That. We acknowledge our own sinfulness, that Scripture says 'we' are doomed to spend eternity in hell,. But Christ died for our sins. If we choose to accept God' gift of salvation then we can have eternal life in heaven instead of in hell. John 3:16 And when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouths -- thank God for his gift and accept it. Then we can become born-again believers. Everyone is born physically -- with whatever pain comes with it. But it's the spiritual birth that's needed.
And, yes, I Have read all of it. And I'm open to any comments You have in return.
Active
They found fossils from snakes with legs. How did the Genesis writer know that?
I studied physical geography for a year and they taught me about layers, ice age, billions of years, evolution. I thought: oh it's science and they say it's the truth, so I bet they know. Maybe God did it in 7 times million billion years whatever. But I don't believe that for 1 bit anymore. They found the ark. It's from the flood all those layers.
Evolution theory is just ppl looking at those layers and they don't believe God can give a world wide flood, so they invent evolution theory. I read that not only Darwin came up with it, but also another guy who had fever from malaria and an eureka moment.
Member
Wow. Thank you for your patience.
Yeah. I read the Bible a lot, for a bunch of different reasons. I’ve only read it straight through in order a few times, but it’s fair to say I am always reading, or have recently read, some part of it.
About the birth of evolutionary theory, again I won’t bore you with details, but its first trailblazers were old earth creationists. They started classifying everything with the Latin labels and set humans aside from primates but they couldn’t figure out what made them biologically “special.” They figured future advances in science would reveal the proof of God’s handiwork marking Man as a superior special Creation. But it never happened and scientists finally accepted humans ARE primates. What makes us “special” is what makes us special among all primates. But we’re still primates. Including you. According to science, you are also STILL a jawed fish (though, technically that’s not the scientific term). And a chordate (animals with spinal chords) and a eukaryote (organism of cells with cell membranes). You never outgrow the stamp of your evolutionary heritage. No “kind” ever brings forth some different “kind.” But evolution does occur. At least that’s what the evidence indicates.
If evolution doesn’t happen because God’s creation is supposed to be fixed in perfection, then extinct species like dinosaurs become a problem. Did they go extinct only after the Fall? If so, then the world is fragile and vulnerable to damage by humans. I know this flies in the face of people who deny climate change in part out of religious convictions. If dinosaurs went extinct, climate change deniers need to offer some explanation that guarantees EVERYTHING else CAN’T go extinct.
My very favorite verse in the Bible is Gen 2:15. “And God took the Man and placed him in the Garden, to dress it and to tend it.”
It’s the only verse, in my opinion, that explains the job God assigned to humanity; to take care of Creation. And it doesn’t offer any conditions. It doesn’t say, “...if you think it really needs it,” or, “...after you take care of everything else.” It doesn’t even say, “...after you’ve guaranteed your own place in Heaven.” It’s our first job in the Bible. It might have been an easier job prior to the Fall, but nowhere does it say it went away after the Fall. God made Man the custodian of all life.
And what does a doomed sinner like me think? If you accept a 13.8 billion year old universe, and a 4 billion year old Earth and evolution, you a accept evolution only “cares” about one thing: survival. In my opinion (with which you DO NOT have to agree) all the different varieties of life we see evolved from a single common ancestor, and differentiated through a constant tension between reproduction, extinction, and variation.
I accept all that, and the evidence that Earth has survived SEVERAL episodes of mass extinction in time. A few of which could have extinguished all life for good. But each time, life regrouped and resurged with more diversity than before. Today that diversity includes one species which MIGHT be able to prevent future such cataclysms, or at least better ensure life’s survival in the face of such disasters.
I can’t say if it’s by luck or by “plan,” but I think Gen 2:15 happens to encapsulate humanity’s most pressing responsibility. I can’t stand watching humans ruin the environment. But, as angry as that makes me, I detest people even more who think they see some “get out of extinction free” card in the Holy Scriptures. It’s not there.
I don’t hold it against any person if they believe in God, and if they claim they trust in God. But, to me, trusting God requires trusting his Creation. And that creation includes human intelligence. And, flawed though it is, our intelligence has uncovered a lot of unexpected things since the last pages of the Bible were set down.
It’s nice to see you accept the planets revolve around the sun in space. And that Earth is one of those planets. But that’s not how the Bible describes these things. Genesis starts counting days and nights before the creation of the sun. It refers to the moon as a light to rule the night. Ibut the moon reflects light, it is not a source of radiant light. And it is seen in the daytime as much as it is in the night. But we (and whoever wrote the Bible) NOTICE it more at night. And, speaking METAPHORICALLY, it serves beautifully as a mate to the sun, each with their special cycles (like months and seasons) that help us think about the progressions and interactions of our own natural lives.
I have to clarify, I’M not the one who thinks faith is important. I simply say Jesus’ metaphor of the mustard seed is his way of explaining how important faith is, not a biology lesson. I don’t find the story of the Christ compelling, though I think it is perfectly understandable coming from that part of history where it arose; AND I understand it’s continued appeal in the present day. I also think it is an excellent improvement upon much of the Old Testament. Which is itself an improvement upon what I understand went before. I’m happy to discuss any/all of things with you as well, though I understand those go well beyond the conversation we first began.
In any event, on top of protecting Creation from harm, I also think humans have a duty to treat each other with kindness sand love and carefully considered measures of justice and mercy. I’ve met a lot of Christians with whom I can get along very nicely about these things. I’ve also met a lot of Christians who are surprised by that.
I don’t care much whether you belong to the second group, but I certainly hope I can number you among the first.
Loyal
Okay -- yes -- evolution Does take place. But just not in the millions / billions of years range. I like the word 'develop' more. I've recently been going through a book Genetics for Dummies -- 2nd Edition. It's a thick paper-back textbook type of book. I've had it for a long time. Mainly because a long time ago I was on another Forum and one of the areas turned out to be genetics study. The human body is fascinating. Every body is fascinating --the way various bodies operate.
Those old-earth creationists had the right idea / information. Cause we Are a special creation. For me -- part of it is simple observation of life. Mankind Is distinctly different. And superior. And, yes, we have been given dominion over this earth.
Technically people are mammals -- we nurse our young, give birth and we're warm blooded. Though some of us Do act 'cold-blooded'. And, yes, we do have a spinal chord and thousands of cells. Various kinds of cells with membranes.
One of the things I've found interesting about the creation narrative -- God never says how many of any given animal or the kind Of animals created. Only that they were water, land and flying. But 'cattle' are named. Maybe it's because cattle Have been here the longest. But the dinasaur thing. Seems like in the old movies -- dinasaurs were pictured as being Huge. I Googled that and found some interesting articles. The world of paleontologists -- study of fossils -- there are some who are Bible believers / Christians and some who are atheists. They come up with differing information concerning the subject. Differing timing for the ages of some of those fossils. And it seems that there Are those who like the idea of huge animals that sometimes resemble dragons. And movie goers love it. But it was Also commented that the word dinaseur didn't come into existence until sometime in the 1800's.
It was Also commented that living conditions were very different before the flood than after it. That those animals had a hard time existing afterwards. Their world was very different.
"And what does a doomed sinner like Me think?" I'm quoting you. No one is really a doomed sinner until that person is dead. So -- your consideration is that of survival. People / life is Far More than survival of the fittest. That would only apply to the animal world. The animals that swim in the water all the time, the birds in the air and the 4 legged animals -- then again, birds have two legs , also. We're a different kind of two-legged creature. We have a soul and they don't.
Your comment about several times of mass extiction -- but somehow civilization regrouped and came back again. Any idea of How anything managed To survive ice ages -- times of mass extinction? I do
And, yes, you Can count me amongst the first group of people you mentioned.
this has been civilized conversation and hope it will continue. Some discussions can get heated. So far this is fine.
Time to sign out for the night. Me and all my ape-like friends are going to bed. Actually there's an unwanted little four-footed 'guest' with a long dark gray tail that we're trying to exterminate. He / it / decided to come in to my closet a couple of evenings ago. So far - glue traps and mouse traps haven't stopped it. I heard it get caught in a trap behind my bed and heard him drag it across the wooden floor and apparently out of the room. And then the trap in the bathroom got him -- somewhat of a racket -- and then he was gone Again.
It's one of God's creatures that needs to be relocated. Out of my house.
Those old-earth creationists had the right idea / information. Cause we Are a special creation. For me -- part of it is simple observation of life. Mankind Is distinctly different. And superior. And, yes, we have been given dominion over this earth.
Technically people are mammals -- we nurse our young, give birth and we're warm blooded. Though some of us Do act 'cold-blooded'. And, yes, we do have a spinal chord and thousands of cells. Various kinds of cells with membranes.
One of the things I've found interesting about the creation narrative -- God never says how many of any given animal or the kind Of animals created. Only that they were water, land and flying. But 'cattle' are named. Maybe it's because cattle Have been here the longest. But the dinasaur thing. Seems like in the old movies -- dinasaurs were pictured as being Huge. I Googled that and found some interesting articles. The world of paleontologists -- study of fossils -- there are some who are Bible believers / Christians and some who are atheists. They come up with differing information concerning the subject. Differing timing for the ages of some of those fossils. And it seems that there Are those who like the idea of huge animals that sometimes resemble dragons. And movie goers love it. But it was Also commented that the word dinaseur didn't come into existence until sometime in the 1800's.
It was Also commented that living conditions were very different before the flood than after it. That those animals had a hard time existing afterwards. Their world was very different.
"And what does a doomed sinner like Me think?" I'm quoting you. No one is really a doomed sinner until that person is dead. So -- your consideration is that of survival. People / life is Far More than survival of the fittest. That would only apply to the animal world. The animals that swim in the water all the time, the birds in the air and the 4 legged animals -- then again, birds have two legs , also. We're a different kind of two-legged creature. We have a soul and they don't.
Your comment about several times of mass extiction -- but somehow civilization regrouped and came back again. Any idea of How anything managed To survive ice ages -- times of mass extinction? I do
And, yes, you Can count me amongst the first group of people you mentioned.
this has been civilized conversation and hope it will continue. Some discussions can get heated. So far this is fine.
Time to sign out for the night.
Me and all my ape-like friends are going to bed. Actually there's an unwanted little four-footed 'guest' with a long dark gray tail that we're trying to exterminate. He / it / decided to come in to my closet a couple of evenings ago. So far - glue traps and mouse traps haven't stopped it. I heard it get caught in a trap behind my bed and heard him drag it across the wooden floor and apparently out of the room. And then the trap in the bathroom got him -- somewhat of a racket -- and then he was gone Again. It's one of God's creatures that needs to be relocated. Out of my house.
Member
Wonderful thoughts. Really.
I would indeed like to continue this exchange, in a way that comes back to my original curiosity, I think.
“No one is really a doomed sinner until that person is dead.”
About that, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about whether I’d be interested in an afterlife. Some of that thinking was done waiting for a brain operation I might not survive. What I came to was a decision that I’d like to avoid eternal punishment, if I could honestly avoid it. But I really don’t have any desire for any sort of eternal afterlife, good OR bad. I could lay out my reasons, but, before I bore you with any of that, what do you say to someone who just doesn’t want an afterlife?
Loyal
@Kirby D. P.
Regarding the afterlife -- well - - the God who gave us His Word to read / study / live by, etc. has told us that there Will be an afterlife -- 'we' can't avoid it. God's Word tells us that everyone's afterlife will be spent either in heaven or in hell.
One of the thoughts is that a Loving God wouldn't Really send Anyone to a place like hell. Or maybe - for just a short time - a place like the RCC purgatory -- which, btw -- is Not in the Bible. I've heard that there is one verse in one of the books that's included in the RCC version of the Bible that says something about it. According to Them, a person Can end up there to purge away any major sins / or sins at all -- that might have gone unconfessed before a person dies. But only the priest or 'someone' knows how long a person will have to spend in purgatory to purge 'said sin' away. And Eventually that person can enter heaven. But that's not Biblical. So - on with God's reality. It amounts to the fact that every person alive has sinned in some way. A nasty thought towards a co-worker or a neighbor's dog or telling an innocent fib to help someone feel better. A tiny 'sin' is as bad as being a murderer. In the book of Romans -- we are All sinner and the wages of sin is death. We see that played out all the time -- people die all the time -- a fact of Life. However, Romans 5:8 tells us that while we were sinners, God loved us so much that He sent His son, Jesus Christ to die for us. and verse 9 says that 'Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." And then Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 10:9 - 10 "but if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. and vs 13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Your brain operation -- tell me about that - please. You DID survive it -- and for a reason. Had a brain tumor developed? Was there an aneurism? ( a bulge in a blood vessel that would be in danger of bursting ) Or an injury as a result of an accident or sports activity.
Okay -- I'll share something with you -- but, maybe -- do you know how to access the 'conversation' part of the Forum? Because I'd like to know more about who I'm 'talking with'. There was emergency brain surgery involved this past October in my family. Okay -- I'll go ahead and share 'here'. I've been sharing with some others via Facebook. and with others on 'here'. My husband had been having some physical problems -- PTSD included. He was in town getting drinking water like usual -- I wasn't with him at that particular time -- passers by saw him fall from a standing position and not get back up. EMS was called and I was notified by one of the grandkids -- I assumed it was his heart -- a mild heart attack -- surgery and back home in a few days or so. Well -- he'd fallen onto concrete -- a head injury -- he was 70 and had been on baby asprin -- the VA Dr. had raised it to two per day just a few weeks prior. So -- all of a sudden I was having to make a quick decision -- emergency brain surgery or let him go. I was told that even With surgery he had very little chance of surviving. So -- I quickly opted For the surgery. Next thing I saw him was in ICU with a drain on the upper side of his head -- his eyes were swollen shut -- was intubated. Turns out -- the scan showed two more areas in his brain that were also affected. He was operated on for a severe brain bleed. The second day or so another scan showed that the second spot had moved and was causing more higher brain pressure. So -- another decision -- go ahead with a second surgery or let him go. The second one would have left his motor skills all messed up. Family and pastors said it would be better to Not operate -- Doug had always been up and active -- so No surgery. The brain pressure started going up and up. The Dr who checked his eyes next said his brain was in process of closing down -- he was taken off the ventilator to see If he could breathe on his own. He was 'gone' very quickly. That entire process started Oct 1 in the afternoon and he passed away -- immediately in the presence of God -- Oct 5 in the morning. He's been with his Heavenly Father for 10 months now. He's with our older grand son and his Mother and My parents. But Only because they had all accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. None of us 'deserve' heaven. but God Wants fellowship with us. Both here on earth and in heaven at some point in the future.
This loss of my husband -- even knowing he's with God, his father, in heaven, it's been horribly hard. We were married for 46 yrs. -- had 4 children. Life was Hard at times -- marriage can be Hard. The PTSD was Hard on him And us.
And, yes, I'm reminding myself that I'm sharing on open Forum. And I've broken my ankle in the midst of getting my property ready to sell. Life has been very challenging both physically, emotionally and spiritually. Probably not that much Spiritually, but relationships have been hard.
So - ya -- I can sort of relate to your wishing you Could be an andriod. An android would not be experiencing emotional pain or loneliness.
I just went back to find out what your original question was -- about an andriod who wants to be come a Christian. The concept being that an andriod would Not be facing any kind of eternity?! Right? Now - looking back on your conversations -- your brain was being operated on and you realized that you Might Not make it. And That would have you thinking along some very serious lines.
Need to close this and get something to eat.
Regarding the afterlife -- well - - the God who gave us His Word to read / study / live by, etc. has told us that there Will be an afterlife -- 'we' can't avoid it. God's Word tells us that everyone's afterlife will be spent either in heaven or in hell.
One of the thoughts is that a Loving God wouldn't Really send Anyone to a place like hell. Or maybe - for just a short time - a place like the RCC purgatory -- which, btw -- is Not in the Bible. I've heard that there is one verse in one of the books that's included in the RCC version of the Bible that says something about it. According to Them, a person Can end up there to purge away any major sins / or sins at all -- that might have gone unconfessed before a person dies. But only the priest or 'someone' knows how long a person will have to spend in purgatory to purge 'said sin' away. And Eventually that person can enter heaven. But that's not Biblical. So - on with God's reality. It amounts to the fact that every person alive has sinned in some way. A nasty thought towards a co-worker or a neighbor's dog or telling an innocent fib to help someone feel better. A tiny 'sin' is as bad as being a murderer. In the book of Romans -- we are All sinner and the wages of sin is death. We see that played out all the time -- people die all the time -- a fact of Life. However, Romans 5:8 tells us that while we were sinners, God loved us so much that He sent His son, Jesus Christ to die for us. and verse 9 says that 'Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." And then Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 10:9 - 10 "but if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. and vs 13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Your brain operation -- tell me about that - please. You DID survive it -- and for a reason. Had a brain tumor developed? Was there an aneurism? ( a bulge in a blood vessel that would be in danger of bursting ) Or an injury as a result of an accident or sports activity.
Okay -- I'll share something with you -- but, maybe -- do you know how to access the 'conversation' part of the Forum? Because I'd like to know more about who I'm 'talking with'. There was emergency brain surgery involved this past October in my family. Okay -- I'll go ahead and share 'here'. I've been sharing with some others via Facebook. and with others on 'here'. My husband had been having some physical problems -- PTSD included. He was in town getting drinking water like usual -- I wasn't with him at that particular time -- passers by saw him fall from a standing position and not get back up. EMS was called and I was notified by one of the grandkids -- I assumed it was his heart -- a mild heart attack -- surgery and back home in a few days or so. Well -- he'd fallen onto concrete -- a head injury -- he was 70 and had been on baby asprin -- the VA Dr. had raised it to two per day just a few weeks prior. So -- all of a sudden I was having to make a quick decision -- emergency brain surgery or let him go. I was told that even With surgery he had very little chance of surviving. So -- I quickly opted For the surgery. Next thing I saw him was in ICU with a drain on the upper side of his head -- his eyes were swollen shut -- was intubated. Turns out -- the scan showed two more areas in his brain that were also affected. He was operated on for a severe brain bleed. The second day or so another scan showed that the second spot had moved and was causing more higher brain pressure. So -- another decision -- go ahead with a second surgery or let him go. The second one would have left his motor skills all messed up. Family and pastors said it would be better to Not operate -- Doug had always been up and active -- so No surgery. The brain pressure started going up and up. The Dr who checked his eyes next said his brain was in process of closing down -- he was taken off the ventilator to see If he could breathe on his own. He was 'gone' very quickly. That entire process started Oct 1 in the afternoon and he passed away -- immediately in the presence of God -- Oct 5 in the morning. He's been with his Heavenly Father for 10 months now. He's with our older grand son and his Mother and My parents. But Only because they had all accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. None of us 'deserve' heaven. but God Wants fellowship with us. Both here on earth and in heaven at some point in the future.
This loss of my husband -- even knowing he's with God, his father, in heaven, it's been horribly hard. We were married for 46 yrs. -- had 4 children. Life was Hard at times -- marriage can be Hard. The PTSD was Hard on him And us.
And, yes, I'm reminding myself that I'm sharing on open Forum. And I've broken my ankle in the midst of getting my property ready to sell. Life has been very challenging both physically, emotionally and spiritually. Probably not that much Spiritually, but relationships have been hard.
So - ya -- I can sort of relate to your wishing you Could be an andriod. An android would not be experiencing emotional pain or loneliness.
I just went back to find out what your original question was -- about an andriod who wants to be come a Christian. The concept being that an andriod would Not be facing any kind of eternity?! Right? Now - looking back on your conversations -- your brain was being operated on and you realized that you Might Not make it. And That would have you thinking along some very serious lines.
Need to close this and get something to eat.
Member
Please accept my deep sympathies for the loss of your husband. I hope it goes as easy with you as it can.
Three years ago the arteries in the back of my skull became damaged. (Long story. Nobody’s real “fault.”) I required an operation to repair at least one of the. The procedure was tricky. My chances were better than 50/50, but I was informed there was a “good chance” I might go to sleep for it and not wake up. The alternative was not having the operation at all and definitely dying. I had a couple days to get ready. I had surprisingly little emotional preparation to make. I have been very lucky. I love the people in my life and they know it. I realized that’s really the only “preparing” that was worth my limited time and energy. The anesthesiologist came in. I cracked a joke about ever playing piano again. He said he’d heard it a million times (typical), he put me to sleep and... I woke up again.
A couple weeks later I needed a follow-up procedure with roughly the same risks. Survived that one, too. Every day ever since has been gravy.
I don’t envy androids. But when I hear Christians explain their understanding of how life works, I think to myself, if what they say were true, I WOULD envy androids.
I think it’s funny how, according to most Christians, simple termination is not a permissible option. I HAVE to endure some sort of afterlife. It just strikes me as an odd idea. To me, wanting to live an earthly life forever seems a bit greedy and sounds a bit boring. Eternity in any version of Hell naturally sounds disagreeable. But I haven’t heard any description of Heaven which sounds all that appealing, either. Here are some versions I‘ve heard:
1. You enter God’s Grace and enjoy a limitless amount of pleasure for an infinite amount of time. But I delight in interactions and experiences over time. By my understanding, perfection in bliss that lasts forever means no time for experience from one state to any different state. If that bliss would be SO wonderful I wouldn’t mind it never changing, then I wouldn’t be the me I am. In other words, I wouldn’t be me. So it doesn’t matter what I find enjoyable right now.
2. You enter a Heaven where you get to see and be with all the loved ones you had who went before you. And as your beloved survivors die, they join you there. What age or “version” of those loved ones greet you? From the age they were when they passed away? Or have they been continuing to age in Heaven, watching you from above? What if they’ve been watching you and everything you’ve done since they passed away disappoints them? Speaking for myself, I’d enjoy seeing my parents in Heaven, but I’ll be positively obsessed with spending time with my children. But what if they arrive wanting to spend most of THEIR time with THEIR children, who I’m sure will be lovely people, but can’t possibly be as interesting to me as my kids... etc., etc?
3. You “merge” in an exquisite “oneness” with God and all conscious beings, your individuality absorbed in the whole. In which case the separate part of me that is me disintegrates into something else. I can’t see how this is very different from my stoping and some other consciousness beginning.
Some of these possibilities are preferable to others, but none of them seem like winning the cosmic lottery. And the WORST version of Hell I have ever heard described is one where the people there enjoy watching those in Hell suffering. I find the very notion disgusting. I would choose to go to Hell if only to reject association with such ghoulish behavior. And here we hit on one of my big complaints about the whole Heaven proposition. What if I just don’t want any of it? It may be God would like me to like being with him. And he wants me to choose that of my own free will. But, if my only failing is I’m just not interested, have I no other option than to go to eternal punishment in Hell? If that’s just how things are, there’s nothing I can do about it. But it strikes me as supremely unfair, unjust.
I assume you can see some flaws in my reasoning. What do you think those are?
Loyal
First -- thank you for sharing about your brain surgery. Being put to sleep with Possibly not waking up again. God brought you through all of that for a Reason. You'd have a new appreciation for every day. And an opportunity for conversations like 'this'.
NOW -- your view of 'eternity' would depend on your view of God. And what His Word says.
There are some verses to share -- John 3:16 -- John 14:6 Jesus is talking to 'us' "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." In that verse -- Jesus is saying that He is the Truth. His Word can be believed. It's trustworthy. and 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture.......given to us for many reasons -- learning doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I'd agree with a combination of #1 and #2. And there's a lot we Don't know. We Won't know until we get there. The more we get to know God -- the more we'll appreciate Him Here and then spending eternity in His presence. I'm thinking probably like the garden of Eden. We will be socializing with other believers and communing with God. A perfect environment.
Upon a believers' death -- 'we' will get a glorified body. Like God's Word described the body / activity of Jesus Christ after His bodily resurrection. No one will turn into Jesus Christ -- but the / our resurrected body will be Like His.
Not sure what you mean by your comment "experience from one state to another state" -- are you referring to a different dimension -- like a sci-fi thing?
I kind of suspect that when we Do get to heaven -- we won't be complaining about it.
And there Is a description of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:11 - 27 and part of chapter 22.
In heaven -- I kind a suspect that we won't Want to be 'us' as we are Now. Our bodies Now are subject to sinfulness, disease, corruption, sadness, heart -ache.
Okay the next part #2 -- the people in heaven -- people -- loved ones -- what age will they be? Don't know. There's a passage about communing with Abraham , etc. We'll recognize them. And there will be no marriage in heaven.
One guy had said that he and his wife enjoy a wonderfully warm relationship here. That he'd just as soon be able to Continue that warmth In heaven. So -- he's got a little taste of heaven , here on earth. God is very capable of taking care of those desires in heaven.
You enjoying Your children in heaven -- they wanting to spend time with Their children, 'time' is eternity. It's not like spending This Christmas with one set of relatives and Thanksgiving with another set and waiting until the next year to switch and Then finding the flu season hitting and being stuck at home. Think of it This way -- five hundred years In and there's another 1500 years yet and then still eternity. Time never ends.
some people believe that their loved ones in heaven are watching us as we live -- sometimes happy with us and sometimes not so much. We really don't know.
We look at heaven from a human perspective cause that's what we Are -- human beings.
Your #3 sounds like the Borges -- Star Trek. All a connected unit. That doesn't fit.
As for the hell part. No where in Scripture is there anything about people watching people in hell suffering.
And, of course, you're entitled to your own opinion -- however -- there's Also a description of Hell -- the eternal lake of fire and brimstone. Exactly the opposite of heaven. It Also lasts Forever and ever and ever.
One of the standard jokes -- that satan loves to have people believe -- is that at least in hell -- all those boring Christians won't be around and we can Party all the time. All the booze and women,etc. that we want. Never ending slothful living -- oh, what bliss. No one to say "no" and no negative consequences." the Real hell will begin as soon as the non-believers actually do experience the real hell -- it will be total darkness -- nashing of teeth -- real fire and brimstone. Satan will be there along with the beast and false prophet. They will be suffering torment along with everyone else. But in total darkness - no one will be able To see who's really there. All 'your' friends Might well be there, and all the women -- but you'll never really see them or enjoy their company. And That is found in Revelation 20 :10. And there's also the episode of the rich man and Lazarus. When the rich man ended up in hades -- Abrahams' bosom -- he requests that someone still alive would Please warn his other brothers about what's in Their future. And he's told that They have the same opportunities that you Had. You chose to reject. Now it's their choice.
Will share something of an extended family situation. some years ago my father-in-law died -- not a believer -- he'd been a drunk and abusive. My husband had been a pastor and was asked to do the funeral service. The older brother did Not want my husband to try to 'preach their dad into heaven" His brother assumed that he, Daryl , would be in heaven. He wanted their Dad to end up in hell. Daryl did NOT want to spend all of eternity in the same place with their Dad. My husband assured Daryl that he could not preach anyone in or out of heaven. That it was up to the individual person and their own decisions. There had been 9 kids in that family. Some went to the funeral simply for closure -- that their Dad actually was dead. Other opted to stay away, That he was dead and leave it at that.
Sounds like you simply don't want to be in heaven with all those goulish people who are spending their time laughing at the people being tortured in hell. Well -- if you can get That image -- which is Wrong - out of your head -- it would help.
It Sounds like satan is using That to blind your eyes to what God's Word is Really saying to you , personally. And That is satans goal to keep you Out of heaven and to spend eternity in hell. And in those horribly , torturous conditions.
Satan is the world's greatest deceivers / liars / etc. he will do Anything he can to have all the 'company' he can get to suffer in hell like he will be.
So -- the way to stay Out of eternity with satan is to accept God's Way to be in the Other place. Heaven.
God's Word Does tell us that there Is eternity for everyone and it's either eternity in heaven or hell.
Your comments
NOW -- your view of 'eternity' would depend on your view of God. And what His Word says.
There are some verses to share -- John 3:16 -- John 14:6 Jesus is talking to 'us' "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." In that verse -- Jesus is saying that He is the Truth. His Word can be believed. It's trustworthy. and 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture.......given to us for many reasons -- learning doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
I'd agree with a combination of #1 and #2. And there's a lot we Don't know. We Won't know until we get there. The more we get to know God -- the more we'll appreciate Him Here and then spending eternity in His presence. I'm thinking probably like the garden of Eden. We will be socializing with other believers and communing with God. A perfect environment.
Upon a believers' death -- 'we' will get a glorified body. Like God's Word described the body / activity of Jesus Christ after His bodily resurrection. No one will turn into Jesus Christ -- but the / our resurrected body will be Like His.
Not sure what you mean by your comment "experience from one state to another state" -- are you referring to a different dimension -- like a sci-fi thing?
I kind of suspect that when we Do get to heaven -- we won't be complaining about it.
And there Is a description of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:11 - 27 and part of chapter 22.
In heaven -- I kind a suspect that we won't Want to be 'us' as we are Now. Our bodies Now are subject to sinfulness, disease, corruption, sadness, heart -ache.
Okay the next part #2 -- the people in heaven -- people -- loved ones -- what age will they be? Don't know. There's a passage about communing with Abraham , etc. We'll recognize them. And there will be no marriage in heaven.
One guy had said that he and his wife enjoy a wonderfully warm relationship here. That he'd just as soon be able to Continue that warmth In heaven. So -- he's got a little taste of heaven , here on earth. God is very capable of taking care of those desires in heaven.
You enjoying Your children in heaven -- they wanting to spend time with Their children, 'time' is eternity. It's not like spending This Christmas with one set of relatives and Thanksgiving with another set and waiting until the next year to switch and Then finding the flu season hitting and being stuck at home. Think of it This way -- five hundred years In and there's another 1500 years yet and then still eternity. Time never ends.
some people believe that their loved ones in heaven are watching us as we live -- sometimes happy with us and sometimes not so much. We really don't know.
We look at heaven from a human perspective cause that's what we Are -- human beings.
Your #3 sounds like the Borges -- Star Trek. All a connected unit. That doesn't fit.
As for the hell part. No where in Scripture is there anything about people watching people in hell suffering.
And, of course, you're entitled to your own opinion -- however -- there's Also a description of Hell -- the eternal lake of fire and brimstone. Exactly the opposite of heaven. It Also lasts Forever and ever and ever.
One of the standard jokes -- that satan loves to have people believe -- is that at least in hell -- all those boring Christians won't be around and we can Party all the time. All the booze and women,etc. that we want. Never ending slothful living -- oh, what bliss. No one to say "no" and no negative consequences." the Real hell will begin as soon as the non-believers actually do experience the real hell -- it will be total darkness -- nashing of teeth -- real fire and brimstone. Satan will be there along with the beast and false prophet. They will be suffering torment along with everyone else. But in total darkness - no one will be able To see who's really there. All 'your' friends Might well be there, and all the women -- but you'll never really see them or enjoy their company. And That is found in Revelation 20 :10. And there's also the episode of the rich man and Lazarus. When the rich man ended up in hades -- Abrahams' bosom -- he requests that someone still alive would Please warn his other brothers about what's in Their future. And he's told that They have the same opportunities that you Had. You chose to reject. Now it's their choice.
Will share something of an extended family situation. some years ago my father-in-law died -- not a believer -- he'd been a drunk and abusive. My husband had been a pastor and was asked to do the funeral service. The older brother did Not want my husband to try to 'preach their dad into heaven" His brother assumed that he, Daryl , would be in heaven. He wanted their Dad to end up in hell. Daryl did NOT want to spend all of eternity in the same place with their Dad. My husband assured Daryl that he could not preach anyone in or out of heaven. That it was up to the individual person and their own decisions. There had been 9 kids in that family. Some went to the funeral simply for closure -- that their Dad actually was dead. Other opted to stay away, That he was dead and leave it at that.
Sounds like you simply don't want to be in heaven with all those goulish people who are spending their time laughing at the people being tortured in hell. Well -- if you can get That image -- which is Wrong - out of your head -- it would help.
It Sounds like satan is using That to blind your eyes to what God's Word is Really saying to you , personally. And That is satans goal to keep you Out of heaven and to spend eternity in hell. And in those horribly , torturous conditions.
Satan is the world's greatest deceivers / liars / etc. he will do Anything he can to have all the 'company' he can get to suffer in hell like he will be.
So -- the way to stay Out of eternity with satan is to accept God's Way to be in the Other place. Heaven.
God's Word Does tell us that there Is eternity for everyone and it's either eternity in heaven or hell.
Your comments
Member
I definitely think, despite what anybody says, nobody I’ve ever spoken to has a very good handle on what Heaven is, if Heaven there be. If there is a Heaven, I find it hard to accept that watching sufferers in Hell is a popular item on the list of recreations. Enjoying the suffering of others, even sinful others, just doesn’t strike me as likely Heaven material. I only mention it as one of the taunts people have directed at me as an atheist. I don’t even know if THEY really mean it or simply say things like that to try and hurt the feelings of someone like me. I hope you don’t think it’s distasteful or disrespectful that I find it extremely funny.
My awkward phrasing questioning whether I could be perfectly happy and transition from one state to another depends on my understanding of the word “perfect.” If one moment I am truly, perfectly happy, any change I experience any moment after that means I would be something else. Something slightly less than perfectly happy. That may just be philosophical word play like the old “Immovable object/irresistible force” chestnut, but anybody who really knew how Heaven actually works would know how to clear up that confusion.
I guess the main source of my skepticism that no Heaven worthy of the name can work is the chance that I might be able to get in but my kids may not. I can accept there is such a thing as an afterlife (all I need is convincing evidence), and maybe that afterlife has a Heaven for good people and someplace else for others, but if I’m there and my kids aren’t, I couldn’t be happy. And if I were transformed in Heaven so I could be happy separated from my kids, I wouldn’t be me.
Your family’s struggle over how to mark the passing of your father in-law and what effect (if any) it might have in the hereafter seems to me to be a sort of flip side to this same paradox. Heaven may host all the people I knew and want to be with, but what if they don’t want to be with me?
In the end, I trust that I have no power over whether there is or isn’t an afterlife, is or isn’t a Heaven. I’ll deal with it when I get there and that time will come all too soon. In the meantime, I have decided not to worry at all about what that will be. I’ll live the way I feel I should, including taking part in love and justice and happiness as best I understand how. If someone or something more powerful than I has rules that require punishing me for choosing to live that way, I honestly think that’s much more their problem than my own.
But, as I say to everyone with whom I discuss these things, I am (or at least I THINK I am) willing to be convinced otherwise.
I don’t know why, but this conversation has reminded me of an old Jewish joke:
A traveler is passing by a small, walled Jewish village in Europe when he sees a man carrying a trumpet and a rolled-up flag pacing along the top of the wall. He asks the man what he is doing and the man explains the townsfolk want to be prepared for the coming of the messiah, so he was hired to walk the wall and blow his horn and wave his flag to alert the people when he saw the messiah coming. The traveler asks the man what does he think of his job. The man shrugs and replies, “It’s steady work.”
Loyal
Hi Kirby
My next comment isn't meant to be offensive or mean-spirited -- but I'm wondering if the brain situation that required the brain Surgery -- hasn't produced -- left some of your reasoning ability a bit 'shaky'.
God chose to spare your life -- not once -- but Twice. But apparently you give the credit to the surgeon's and not to God. And you want to know more about the place called 'heaven'. Well -- when people take time to read the information we Do have , they Will have more of a handle On what heaven will be like.
There's the book of Hebrews -- chapter 11 is the faith chapter vs 1 "Now faith is he substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen." Vs 3 "by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God , so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."
No human being was alive when this earth came into existence. But we can see that it and we Are here. So - at some point - 'we' wonder How did this come to be / nature and everything. And 'we' know that '"babies come from Mommy and Daddy" -- but it's the "everything else" that we get to wondering about.
Lots of people are guided to God's Word / Bible because that's where we learn that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." And that section of Genesis continues to tell us how and when. Including the animal world and the people world.
And we also have John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word Was God. vs 2 He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made." vs 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
The 'Word' is Jesus Christ. vs 2 says that He, Jesus Christ, was in the beginning with God."
Scripture Assumes God and His existence. And 'we' can See evidence Of His existence -- the world around us and how it works.
And - haven't we already talked about those who have their fun taunting and making fun of people who they assume are in hell. There's a lot of meanness in this world. But it won't be in heaven. Heaven is the perfect environment. No one in heaven will be looking down and laughing at anyone. There won't be any more satanic influence. because satan and his friends will be suffering horribly for all eternity. so -- let's not use that as an excuse any more. Okay?!
Maybe some people don't believe that an atheist has feelings or a soul or something. And, of course, That is total nonsense. Everyone has feelings and a soul.
In this world -- the only one we know -- there's really no such thing As 'perfection'. We picture the garden of Eden as 'perfection' the perfect environment. We can imagine what a beautiful garden looks like. The various flowers in bloom -- the animals all behaving nicely. No mosquito bites or snake bites. No soil erosion. The 'perfect' temperature.
God is the only one who knows how heaven 'works' cause He's creating it presently. We are on earth -- He's preparing our heaven Now In heaven. So -- we'll simply have to put our 'faith'/ Trust in Him that He knows the perfect environment that we need and will enjoy Forever. And 'we' will find out all about it when we get there. In the Meantime -- we Do have God's written word to us telling about it.
As far as Your someday being in heaven and possibly your kids Not. Well -- Now is the time to learn about it yourself and share with your kids / wife -- then you can be there as a family. But First acknowledge God's existence And His Word. Cause without That -- you, personally, have Nothing. Go back to Genesis 1;1 "in the beginning God"....... created..... you and your wife and your kids and this entire world.
You're not believing He exist does Not non-exist Him. He's existing and is here and the afterlife will be -- our death will put us immediately In the afterlife -- and it will be either heaven or hell.
Kirby -- your fatalistic attitude -- that you'll deal with the afterlife once you get there -- Scripture tells us exactly that it Does exist and How to be in heaven and stay out of hell. Cause 'once you get there' -- If that turns out to be hell -- neither you or any one Else will be able to change your mind. No getting out -- NEVER.
I, myself, made that decision when I was a teenager. I grew up in church with Bible and good teachers and a good teaching pastor. I had lots of knowledge about God. Salvation -- most everything. But - I came to the point of realizing that I needed it in my Heart / soul not simply in my head. so -- I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. That instant the Holy Spirit came to indwell my heart -- inner peace. And heaven is in My future.
It's Your responsibility -- Not anyone elses. I've been sharing with you -- God's Word -- read it and Listen to it -- with your heart.
time for my breakfast.
My next comment isn't meant to be offensive or mean-spirited -- but I'm wondering if the brain situation that required the brain Surgery -- hasn't produced -- left some of your reasoning ability a bit 'shaky'.
God chose to spare your life -- not once -- but Twice. But apparently you give the credit to the surgeon's and not to God. And you want to know more about the place called 'heaven'. Well -- when people take time to read the information we Do have , they Will have more of a handle On what heaven will be like.
There's the book of Hebrews -- chapter 11 is the faith chapter vs 1 "Now faith is he substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen." Vs 3 "by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God , so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."
No human being was alive when this earth came into existence. But we can see that it and we Are here. So - at some point - 'we' wonder How did this come to be / nature and everything. And 'we' know that '"babies come from Mommy and Daddy" -- but it's the "everything else" that we get to wondering about.
Lots of people are guided to God's Word / Bible because that's where we learn that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." And that section of Genesis continues to tell us how and when. Including the animal world and the people world.
And we also have John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word Was God. vs 2 He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made." vs 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
The 'Word' is Jesus Christ. vs 2 says that He, Jesus Christ, was in the beginning with God."
Scripture Assumes God and His existence. And 'we' can See evidence Of His existence -- the world around us and how it works.
And - haven't we already talked about those who have their fun taunting and making fun of people who they assume are in hell. There's a lot of meanness in this world. But it won't be in heaven. Heaven is the perfect environment. No one in heaven will be looking down and laughing at anyone. There won't be any more satanic influence. because satan and his friends will be suffering horribly for all eternity. so -- let's not use that as an excuse any more. Okay?!
Maybe some people don't believe that an atheist has feelings or a soul or something. And, of course, That is total nonsense. Everyone has feelings and a soul.
In this world -- the only one we know -- there's really no such thing As 'perfection'. We picture the garden of Eden as 'perfection' the perfect environment. We can imagine what a beautiful garden looks like. The various flowers in bloom -- the animals all behaving nicely. No mosquito bites or snake bites. No soil erosion. The 'perfect' temperature.
God is the only one who knows how heaven 'works' cause He's creating it presently. We are on earth -- He's preparing our heaven Now In heaven. So -- we'll simply have to put our 'faith'/ Trust in Him that He knows the perfect environment that we need and will enjoy Forever. And 'we' will find out all about it when we get there. In the Meantime -- we Do have God's written word to us telling about it.
As far as Your someday being in heaven and possibly your kids Not. Well -- Now is the time to learn about it yourself and share with your kids / wife -- then you can be there as a family. But First acknowledge God's existence And His Word. Cause without That -- you, personally, have Nothing. Go back to Genesis 1;1 "in the beginning God"....... created..... you and your wife and your kids and this entire world.
You're not believing He exist does Not non-exist Him. He's existing and is here and the afterlife will be -- our death will put us immediately In the afterlife -- and it will be either heaven or hell.
Kirby -- your fatalistic attitude -- that you'll deal with the afterlife once you get there -- Scripture tells us exactly that it Does exist and How to be in heaven and stay out of hell. Cause 'once you get there' -- If that turns out to be hell -- neither you or any one Else will be able to change your mind. No getting out -- NEVER.
I, myself, made that decision when I was a teenager. I grew up in church with Bible and good teachers and a good teaching pastor. I had lots of knowledge about God. Salvation -- most everything. But - I came to the point of realizing that I needed it in my Heart / soul not simply in my head. so -- I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. That instant the Holy Spirit came to indwell my heart -- inner peace. And heaven is in My future.
It's Your responsibility -- Not anyone elses. I've been sharing with you -- God's Word -- read it and Listen to it -- with your heart.
time for my breakfast.
Loyal
@Kirby D. P.
Now that this discussion has completely untethered from its moorings... could I ask a direct question?
I know that you've read the bible extensively and deeply. What have you concluded, if anything, about the person Jesus of Nazareth?
Now that this discussion has completely untethered from its moorings... could I ask a direct question?
I know that you've read the bible extensively and deeply. What have you concluded, if anything, about the person Jesus of Nazareth?
Member
Member
I LOVE that question. I’ll need I bit to compose my thoughts...
Loyal
Look forward to it. Maybe a new thread?