Where do Christians go when they 'die'?
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PloughBoy
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And just for thought, I thought Jesus Christ is with the believer all of the time. He promise: And i like all of this!
5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be contentwith what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.” 6So we say with confidence: “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”
(Hebrews 13:5)
5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be contentwith what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.” 6So we say with confidence: “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?”
(Hebrews 13:5)
PloughBoy
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When Jesus came into my life and I found out that He was real, I did not have to put my faith in man or trust any one! Preacher Minster female or male. And no matter how cruel a person may treat me, it didn't matter, for my God was real! And one day it will be worth it all!
Now that is what Jesus is all about and that much more. He knows how you feel, the pains and scars, the filthy names, the frowning frowns, and all of the speculations, and backbiting , and called everything but a Child of God. We all must be very careful where we point our arrows of words for some treat sinners with such a kindness that we dare not treat a "true Warrior of God" but we only holds a quiver of "contempts".
Now that is what Jesus is all about and that much more. He knows how you feel, the pains and scars, the filthy names, the frowning frowns, and all of the speculations, and backbiting , and called everything but a Child of God. We all must be very careful where we point our arrows of words for some treat sinners with such a kindness that we dare not treat a "true Warrior of God" but we only holds a quiver of "contempts".
Dave M
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yet Jesus promises it in Mathew Chapter 24 when he is talking about the end times and before his return,
I think this would of been a great time for Jesus to say hey Look you will be raptured out before my return and all the tribulation happen fear not,,, but he says we will die and go through tribulation before right before he returns endure to the end of your life is what I keep seeing his warnings being to his followers, I never see him saying your going to escape. Although I do see him saying Gods wrath is not for us,
Matthew 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
A Lot of people call it the great escape -- which it isn't. If 'we' were wanting to 'escape' 'we' would have been up and away Long ago.
Seems that God shares with us exactly what He wants to share - no more and no less. His idea appears to be that everyone needs to be spiritual ready to live life For Him and share the Gospel unto salvation with whomever He chooses to put in our paths.
And, yes, 'as we speak' there are many believers who Do experience brutal tribulation in their lives that leads to their deaths. I remember on FB some time ago -- there was a situation in which many believers were facing decapitation and to pray for their release from this awful situation. And my response was 'absent from this body is being present with the Lord' -- the idea seemed to be that they needed to be Rescued. our method of death might not be what we'd choose, but we Will be with Christ as a result Of.
And, yes, God's wrath is Not meant for born again people. His children of Israel have been the rebellious children. And there Is a passage I found that says that His people the children of Israel Will come to Him. And those are Not especially His only 'elect'. No one knows who they are. Only God does. But He does know who His people / the Jews are. So those future 7 yrs. are for the unsaved remnant of the Jews.
Seems that God shares with us exactly what He wants to share - no more and no less. His idea appears to be that everyone needs to be spiritual ready to live life For Him and share the Gospel unto salvation with whomever He chooses to put in our paths.
And, yes, 'as we speak' there are many believers who Do experience brutal tribulation in their lives that leads to their deaths. I remember on FB some time ago -- there was a situation in which many believers were facing decapitation and to pray for their release from this awful situation. And my response was 'absent from this body is being present with the Lord' -- the idea seemed to be that they needed to be Rescued. our method of death might not be what we'd choose, but we Will be with Christ as a result Of.
And, yes, God's wrath is Not meant for born again people. His children of Israel have been the rebellious children. And there Is a passage I found that says that His people the children of Israel Will come to Him. And those are Not especially His only 'elect'. No one knows who they are. Only God does. But He does know who His people / the Jews are. So those future 7 yrs. are for the unsaved remnant of the Jews.
B-A-C
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All this talk of why God might want us to go through trials, tribulations and testing is just diversionary. "Why" doesn't matter.
Why not just go with what the Bible says?
It specifically say this will be worst tribulation that ever existed on the Earth. ( Matt 24:21; Mark 13:19; )
It specifically say "the elect" will still be here during this time. ( Matt 24:22; Mark 13:20; )
It specifically says the rapture will happen "after" this tribulation. ( Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24; )
It's there, plain and simple. It doesn't get any easier. Why not just go with what the Bible says?
It specifically says there will be saints that "come out of" the great tribulation. ( Rev 7:9-14; )
It says these people will come from every race, nation, tongue and tribe of people. It specifically says. this. (not just Jews)
The people wearing white robes "come out of the great tribulation".
Why add or take away anything from these verses? Why not just go with what the Bible says?
Now sometimes in the Bible, we can find verses that seemingly conflict with each other. But in this case it's easy.
There are no conflicting verses that say "before" the tribulation. Why not just go with what the Bible says?
Because we have been brain-washed... we hear something over and over again, until we start believing it.
It might not be Biblical, but hey everyone in my church believes it, so it must be right.
Why not just go with what the Bible says?
It specifically say this will be worst tribulation that ever existed on the Earth. ( Matt 24:21; Mark 13:19; )
It specifically say "the elect" will still be here during this time. ( Matt 24:22; Mark 13:20; )
It specifically says the rapture will happen "after" this tribulation. ( Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24; )
It's there, plain and simple. It doesn't get any easier. Why not just go with what the Bible says?
It specifically says there will be saints that "come out of" the great tribulation. ( Rev 7:9-14; )
It says these people will come from every race, nation, tongue and tribe of people. It specifically says. this. (not just Jews)
The people wearing white robes "come out of the great tribulation".
Why add or take away anything from these verses? Why not just go with what the Bible says?
Now sometimes in the Bible, we can find verses that seemingly conflict with each other. But in this case it's easy.
There are no conflicting verses that say "before" the tribulation. Why not just go with what the Bible says?
Because we have been brain-washed... we hear something over and over again, until we start believing it.
It might not be Biblical, but hey everyone in my church believes it, so it must be right.
Dave M
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Brother @B-A-C you have a gift of being able to explain things I think the fancy word for is articulate. I was reading mathew 24 this morning and and it jumped out of the page into my head and it was clear as day that the rapture happens after the tribulation, I almost stopped my study time to post on here,, but I did not want to be distracted, I literally just had this revelation today and here you are posting it I love the Lord an how he work !!!
it says after tribulation the son of man will appear, Jesus is coming after the tribulation
then it says one will be taken and the other left, that to me sounds like the rapture, it happens After tribulation, it seems pretty straight forward
Mathew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.
39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man
. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left
it says after tribulation the son of man will appear, Jesus is coming after the tribulation
then it says one will be taken and the other left, that to me sounds like the rapture, it happens After tribulation, it seems pretty straight forward
Mathew 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.
39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man
. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left
I totally agree that there Will be a rapture of the Church and there Will be Jesus Christ coming back to this earth to reign for those 1000 yrs.
@B-A-C -- IF it were all that 'clear as a bell' as to When the rapture takes place -- there would be no controversy concerning it. The saints coming out of the Great Tribulation will be the Jews -- multitudes will have accepted Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. They were scattered all over the world a long time ago.
Go back to Daniel 9 :27 -- there is a final 7 yrs. yet to be lived. And the question remains -- WHY should born again believers have to suffer the wrath of God. We're already suffering in many ways all over this world for the cause of Christ. And that is what we're promised. But -- we're Now in the time of the Gentiles / us/ well -- those of us who Are Gentiles on Forum. And, honestly, maybe you Are Jewish. You're bio says you're from Oregon but you could be Jewish -- you could be a Messianic Jew. So you would be seeing this in a very different context.
So - I'm still a believer in a pre-tribulation rapture. I'm one who will be raptured up and out of here so that God can be dealing specifically with the Jewish population. It won't be a very good time for Anyone.
And Now you are suggesting that all of us pre-trib people have simply been brain-washed and you're kind of stepping out of line in your last comment.
@B-A-C -- IF it were all that 'clear as a bell' as to When the rapture takes place -- there would be no controversy concerning it. The saints coming out of the Great Tribulation will be the Jews -- multitudes will have accepted Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. They were scattered all over the world a long time ago.
Go back to Daniel 9 :27 -- there is a final 7 yrs. yet to be lived. And the question remains -- WHY should born again believers have to suffer the wrath of God. We're already suffering in many ways all over this world for the cause of Christ. And that is what we're promised. But -- we're Now in the time of the Gentiles / us/ well -- those of us who Are Gentiles on Forum. And, honestly, maybe you Are Jewish. You're bio says you're from Oregon but you could be Jewish -- you could be a Messianic Jew. So you would be seeing this in a very different context.
So - I'm still a believer in a pre-tribulation rapture. I'm one who will be raptured up and out of here so that God can be dealing specifically with the Jewish population. It won't be a very good time for Anyone.
And Now you are suggesting that all of us pre-trib people have simply been brain-washed and you're kind of stepping out of line in your last comment.
Brother-Paul
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Greetings brother,
But does this not also show due to different denominational belief and practices?
Brother-Paul
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Greeting B-A-C
I agree 100% with what you say here, translations are best, the nearer the truth the better, but we still have Strongs and Vines dictionaries.
As for the interpretations, I think we all fall in to this trap at times, I have the Message Bible and others, do I read them? I think once or twice I did, they are to fluffed over for me, they often promote them by saying they are current day English, easy to read and understand. Easy to mis understand I think.
Tyndale is my number one commentary but only read after reading or studying the scriptures, to possible expand my understanding. Matthew Henry's was my first hard back set I purchased but ebooks certainly broaden what is available and are more reasonably priced.
Shalom
Brother-Paul
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Brother-Paul
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Brother-Paul
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Brother-Paul
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Greeting Sue,
No one knows when the Rapture will be, there are many who think 'Pre-Trib', but so often it is based on God bring the Jews out of Israel, Noah and His family being lifted out at the time God flooded the whole world, or even Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah. But is it right for Christians, in the time of the Gentiles, under Jesus, to think we will be removed from the Tribulations to come in the seven year period of two halves? The Jews were under God, we are under God, but all authority was given to Jesus, God's one and only son.
Is it right for us to think we will be lifted out by an early rapture, you may say yes, but I doo not see it that way. We will have tribulations, and we will be raised up on the last day to mention two statements from scripture.
I worry for my brother's and sister's in Christ who stick to Pre-Trib beliefs. I worry because they want to be out before the things in the Tribulation messy periods. What happens if those who think that are not lifted our as they hope, the tribulations begin, the suffering commences, it gets worse, and worse, are they ready for this? I don't think so, are they ready to be martyred for their faith in Christ, many will say yes, I seriously wonder.
We all have to be ready because no one knows the day or the hours, we all have to be like the 5 of the 10 wise virgins, but we also have to be ready to take what ever comes and if this means we have to go through the tribulation periods, then that is what we have to do, even if we are martyred for our faith.
Shalom
B-A-C
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I wish this was true.
But let me ask you...
Do you think the Bible is clear about homosexuality?
Do you think the Bible is clear about who is the head of the church? (the Pope or Jesus)
Do you think the Bible is clear whether there is hell and some people will go there?
So if the Bible clear on these things... why is there controversy in the church?
Curtis
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Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Eph 3:14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
No such thing as an 'early ' rapture -- it will happen when God says it's time To happen.
And I don't see how I or anyone Else would not be prepared for whatever the future on this earth consists of. I could be killed in a car wreck tomorrow and be with Christ. And I Really suspect that no one will really be aware Of the timing of the rapture. We'll All be busy living our lives. There will Always be problems in this world. The Bible describes it as birth pangs getting worse and worse. My oldest daughter took a LONG time to get born -- my youngest son was 'here' in a very much shorter time. All were different.
Everything now days are messy. One thing after another // messy.
People are being martyred for their faith Now.
Brother-Paul
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Greeting Sue,
Having mentioned PreTrib Rapture at the start of the post I didn't see any problem referring to it as an early Rapture later in the post.
It is true there is no such thing as an early Rapture, but it would be early if compared to mid trib or end trib.
Christ will Return in Glory, when God the Father tells Him, and the timing will be accurate to God's plan.
Meanwhile in our understanding of the Rapture in scripture, which doesn't clearly tell us when the Rapture will be, we are to search the scriptures and share together, encouraging one another in The Word, as to when the Rapture may take place. Accepting all options with an open heart and open mind, being ready for Christ's Return at any time, even this day.
Shalom
