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Where do Christians go when they 'die'?

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Loyal
This topic has been brought up before here on TalkJesus, but recent conversions have brought it to mind again.

For the purpose of this thread, I'm only concerned with saved believers.. "Christians". Not the =unsaved. That's been discussed frequently and recently.

Whenever I ask this question, usually I get a standard answer "heaven". Don't all Christians go to heaven when they die?
Some people say "I'm not worried about it.. I'll cross that bridge when I get there". When you get there, it will too late to do anything about it.
So what does the Bible say?

There are seemingly three (maybe four) people who went to heaven in the Bible. (Six if you count visions)

First we have Enoch... but none of these verses specifically say he went to heaven.

Gen 5:24; Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

It seems Enoch never died. "he would not see death". But he was "taken up". Taken up where? Wherever God is. Which would seem to be heaven.

Then we have Elijah... these verses specifically say "heaven".

2Kings 2:1; And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

It seems Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot of fire (and horses of fire) in a whirlwind. Did Elijah die? I don't know.

Then we have Jesus of course.
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
...more about this particular verse later.

Then there is Paul... this one is tricky because Paul doesn't know if was actually physically in heaven, or just spiritually there in a vision.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Depending on which Bible translation you have, some say "Paradise" in verse 4. But it says "third heaven" in verse 2. Paul says he wasn't permitted to speak of some things there.

Then we have Isaiah's vision. It seems Isaiah "saw" heaven, but didn't actually go there quite yet.

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:2; Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3; And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."
Isa 6:4; And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
Isa 6:5; Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Isa 6:6; Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7; He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
Isa 6:8; Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isa 6:9; He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'

Finally we have John, which is also a vision, not actually going to heaven.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
Rev 1:15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.


After reading all these verses... it seems that really only Enoch, Elijah and Jesus actually went to heaven. (possibly Paul, but if he did, he didn't stay).

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
Jesus says that no one has ascended up to heaven (except Himself).

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Luke says even David hasn't gone to heaven.

Acts 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

There is some debate about whether the saints went to a place called 'Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom" before Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
In the old testament, there was not really any talk of the resurrection or eternal life. There are some verses that say we just go down to Sheol (the Earth, the grave) and sleep.

Another interesting verse here...

1Sam 2:6; "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Some seemingly prophetic verses in Psalms talk about this.

Psa 16:10; For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Psa 30:3; O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
Psa 49:15; But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.
Psa 86:13; For Your lovingkindness toward me is great, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

It seems that David believed either he would not go to Sheol, or if he did go, it wouldn't be permanent.

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
There is no verse that specifically says Christians go to heaven when they die. But there is one passage that is close to this.

2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9; Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

It says if we are in our 'physical' body we are absent from wherever God is. There is much debate about what this means. But generally many believe
the soul, or spirit of man goes to be with God (in heaven) but the body stays behind to decay in the earth and turn back to dust.

Gen 2:7; Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Psa 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."

Solomon mentions this also.

Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God.

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
Probably the most well known passage about where we go after this life is in John.

John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.


It seems Jesus went to 'prepare' a place for us. If this place wasn't prepared yet, it makes sense that the saints of the old testament didn't go there.
How could they go there if it wasn't built or prepared yet? The word 'monay' here seems to indicate it will be large and well adorned. King James says 'mansions'.


G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

But Jesus says He will 'come again' to take us where He is. There is some debate over that means He will 'spiritually return' or 'physically return' (second coming) before
we are allowed to go to this place.

.. to be continued ...
 
Loyal
I'm still working on "where" we go... there are still plenty of scriptures to discuss here.
But the other part of this question is 'when' do we go? Many people believe we immediately go at the instant we die.
A lot of churches teach something called 'soul sleep' where you just lie in the ground until Jesus calls us up.

John 5:25; "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:26; "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


It seems 'an hour is coming' when all the dead (both the righteous and the wicked) will rise up.

Jesus says four times in John 6 ...


John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


That He will raise people up... on... "the last day". The last day has different meaning to different people. Some people believe it simply means the "last day" of your life.
Yet there are some passage that do not support this.

John 11:21; Martha then said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
John 11:22; "Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You."
John 11:23; Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
John 11:25; Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
John 11:26; and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:27; She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Lazarus has already been dead for three days. But Jesus says your brother will "rise again". Martha says yeah I know... this will happen on "the last day".
So it seems Lazarus didn't immediately go to heaven on the "last day" of his life. Both Jesus and Martha seem to be saying that will be some day in the future.

... to be continued ...
 
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Active
This topic has been brought up before here on TalkJesus, but recent conversions have brought it to mind again.

For the purpose of this thread, I'm only concerned with saved believers.. "Christians". Not the =unsaved. That's been discussed frequently and recently.

Whenever I ask this question, usually I get a standard answer "heaven". Don't all Christians go to heaven when they die?
Some people say "I'm not worried about it.. I'll cross that bridge when I get there". When you get there, it will too late to do anything about it.
So what does the Bible say?

There are seemingly three (maybe four) people who went to heaven in the Bible. (Six if you count visions)

First we have Enoch... but none of these verses specifically say he went to heaven.

Gen 5:24; Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

It seems Enoch never died. "he would not see death". But he was "taken up". Taken up where? Wherever God is. Which would seem to be heaven.

Then we have Elijah... these verses specifically say "heaven".

2Kings 2:1; And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

It seems Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot of fire (and horses of fire) in a whirlwind. Did Elijah die? I don't know.

Then we have Jesus of course.
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
...more about this particular verse later.

Then there is Paul... this one is tricky because Paul doesn't know if was actually physically in heaven, or just spiritually there in a vision.

2Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Depending on which Bible translation you have, some say "Paradise" in verse 4. But it says "third heaven" in verse 2. Paul says he wasn't permitted to speak of some things there.

Then we have Isaiah's vision. It seems Isaiah "saw" heaven, but didn't actually go there quite yet.

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:2; Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3; And one called out to another and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory."
Isa 6:4; And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.
Isa 6:5; Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Isa 6:6; Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7; He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
Isa 6:8; Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Isa 6:9; He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'

Finally we have John, which is also a vision, not actually going to heaven.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
Rev 1:15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.


After reading all these verses... it seems that really only Enoch, Elijah and Jesus actually went to heaven. (possibly Paul, but if he did, he didn't stay).

... to be continued ...
[/QUOT


Jesus and Nicodemus
…12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

Jesus said NO ONE except the one that can down to Mary's womb! he has told you about a earthy thing, and you still no not believe when i have told you about there is only one who has "ASCENDED".

Until Jesus gets back here, ....when People die, they "GO to HADES" "The Grave"!!. Through" out " HOLY SCRIPTURE" the BIBLE verifies this! But the "Institutionalize church" has vilified this, through so much of the "translated copied text" by unscrupulous proclamation of the printed text and fell into doctrinal error. And many here on "TalkJesus" who are well learned concerning the "Biblical text" know i speak the truth!

Christians do not go to Heaven when they die or leave their bodies, they go to "HADES" like the other non-christians! There is a place for Demons in HADES, There is A place for Non-christians in HADES and there is a place for Christians in "HADES". := "The GRAVE". Hades has a place of "torment" and a place of "paradise" there is a "GREAT GULF" in between.

When JESUS return The GRAVE [HADES} with give up those who have died in CHRIST {The Buxom of Abraham}. He will take all of us to Heaven to be with Him for our Coronation celebration the so called wedding feast.

When Lazarus died, his body laid in the tomb, rotting and stinking for days, Lazarus did not go to Heaven and have a good time kicking it around with Moses and Enoch and then JESUS called him back to earth living a poor and depressed life and then died again. Lazarus went to the comforts of "Hades" The Grave as if he laid down in the arms of Abraham and awaiting for Jesus to raise him when he calls his name. So in essence, those who are pass away, i say ALL who has pass away both "OT" and "NT" saints are waiting for Jesus to raise them from the "GRAVE" [HADES] these two are the same place. Just different titles and english words and translated words of use. For Jesus is the "Resurrection" HE will raise all not some, but ALL in the LAST DAY! FOR HE is the Resurrection!

I am sorry for the harshness! For in times like these "either be cold or hot"! for many have lost their lives for this truth to be told while others have been "Luke warm". And we all should know the "Great White Throne Judgment " is a different.

This is learned just by reading your "Bible" which means "THE BOOK"! the word bible only means "THE BOOK" so have you read a page over here a page over here or have you read "The BOOK"? you do not have to be taught this about the book by any man or woman, the only thing you have to do is read it, my brothers and sisters in Christ. Do not let no man or woman spoon feed you this BOOK after they have stuck the spoon in their mouth and place the food back on the spoon and place it in your mouth to feed upon.

(Ezekiel 34) [The Lord is not pleased with the Shepherds]
18‘Is it too slight a thing for you that you should feed in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? 19‘As for My flock, they must eat what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!’”

I think the biggest problem is the collected reading of the text, in personal form. and patience. in which manning christians to no have and fail to realize that "tribulation worketh patience"
 
Loyal
Hades is not Sheol. Hades was one-half, One side of Sheol.

The saints were believed to be on one side of Sheol, and the sinners on the other side of Sheol.

Luke 16:

22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away * and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
 
Active
and what ancient text or deuterocanonical or non-canonical , Pseudographical book or which Hebrew lexicon and Greek Lexicon did you use. and did you look in Vine's Greek Dict. of NT words with verses uses. pre 1979. for a more exhausted use. and Did you also refer to "ISBE" for certainly. For we know these References are "The Standard" in precise definitions. I grew up with them and i don't have to look at them anymore and I stand sure [grave and Hades] are the same, unless your personal reference is referring the grave as dirt on you face or on your body or 6 feet under the ground or placed in a "tomb" with a stone place, in front of it.:cool: for that could be a grave too! But Jesus was maybe 3 days in the Grave or could we say 3 days in Hades, But i will say in essence they both means the same, but sometimes it is "context" in which they lay. And then there is another but. but it depends upon the person but God remains the same, He never changes. 'I tell you plainly "Lazarus is sleep".:cool:
 
Loyal
Well hopefully the 'mansions' Jesus is building for us aren't in Hades. That seems a dismal prospect, especially since the old earth is eventually going away.
Also it seems unlikely that the dwelling place/throne of God/Jesus is in Hades.
 
Loyal
Youve conflated 'resurrection' with 'going to heaven'. The bible never directs us to place hope in going to heaven, always to resurrection.

The dead will rise from the grave as Jesus returns and we will reign with him forever.
 
Active
quick note: a lot of Christians thinks there is a difference between "the Holy Spirit" and "the Holy Ghost"! thousands upon thousands think it is a difference this is a prime example, Many Christians thinks that "Jesus" and the "Father" is the same person. and you cannot even show them the truth and they are real true children of God. And that there are not 2 GOD's and this is way beyond them to even phantom that Jesus is God but not God the Father who has committed all things into his hands.
 
Loyal
Youve conflated 'resurrection' with 'going to heaven'. The bible never directs us to place hope in going to heaven, always to resurrection.

The dead will rise from the grave as Jesus returns and we will reign with him forever.
Actually I agree with this. I haven't said we are going to heaven anywhere. But the resurrection doesn't happen until after the millennial reign.
Very close to the time the "new earth" appears, but also very close to the time the New Jerusalem appears. (which also is not heaven).
 
Active
Well hopefully the 'mansions' Jesus is building for us aren't in Hades. That seems a dismal prospect, especially since the old earth is eventually going away.
Also it seems unlikely that the dwelling place/throne of God/Jesus is in Hades.
LOL, well you cannot move in yet not until it is completed. and the dinning table has been set, and your dinning garment is totally completed with all its obtainment upon it like if they were crown jewels for the things you endured, despising the shame in total obedience. You cannot attended if you have not a wedding garment on LOL!
 
Active
Actually I agree with this. I haven't said we are going to heaven anywhere. But the resurrection doesn't happen until after the millennial reign.
Very close to the time the "new earth" appears, but also very close to the time the New Jerusalem appears. (which also is not heaven).
The Millennial does not take place until after OUR Feast at the wedding table, You cannot reign with Christ to after you get your New Garment!
 
Active
you see Jesus died went to Hades the grave then He went to heaven,, you with me now.

Now when you died you go to Hades or the grave, unless He comes back before you died you no not go to Hades or the gravel, but if you died before He gets back you go the same place He went before He went back to Heaven as Jesus the 1st born of a brand new creature, who you are going to look like, He is the !st of a New Kind of creature that have never existed before and He is the 1st of all of us that has been converted.:cool: "eyes has not seen' Now when He calls you from that grave or hades, here you come! Like a twinkle.
 
Loyal
The Millennial does not take place until after OUR Feast at the wedding table, You cannot reign with Christ to after you get your New Garment!
I don't think so.

The Millennial reign happens "before" the resurrection. In fact before the "first" resurrection.

Rev 20:1; Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection is after the Millennial reign. Besides, if the feast was "before', it would leave all these saints out of the feast.
The argument could be... OK well then the saints who were 'raptured" before this must be there. But that doesn't work either.

1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1Thes 4:18; Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It says here that those who are still alive on Earth when Jesus returns won't go first. The "dead" (those who are asleep) will go first. Which agrees with Revelation 20.
Those who are beheaded (surely they are dead) during the tribulation will go first. The "rest of the dead" (those who are asleep) go a thousand years after this.
 
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That is not foreign to the different "schools of thought" concerning millennium events since 1 century theology confrontations. So this argument is not new, i came to my conclusion just by reading the scriptures from front to back, then found out that some thought patterns like myself concerning events that would transpire. I found some of the people who fell within certain groups, and that some believe and fell within the parameters of "pre-tribulation" and to my surprise, i was shock to find out that there were name groups of such parameters. So I read all of the groups! But still kept my stance on the account of what i have read on my own, In which some what lies, in the parameters of "pre-tribulation" in which many pre-tribulation believer also that came not to that conclusion but agree to somewhat of another teaching, that just happens to sound good to them, Just like the "post, Amillennial and even "Preterism" view points. Just like many that the Pre-triblationlist calls "the Rapture of the Church" the "2nd coming of Christ" it is not or is it taught in scripture His second coming to earth or any such thing as His secret coming. i have never read anything of such it the "Bible" with that type of description. It says plainly He will come back and get us and catch us up "into" the sky and take us where he will be and there we will always be with Him. "That was a promise" plain and simple. I will not go into more details concerning this event. It is plainly called His return in the sky or air and not to earth. There is a difference. It did not say anything about a secret coming. If He told us, how can it be a secret.

After by just reading over and over again from front to back with precise definitions of Biblical words and nota mans interpretations or thoughts or explanations. Just a couple of Good Reference Bibles "ASV", RSV, KJV. with examples in text of replacement words and meaning and a constant reading of Vine's and "ISBE" and LEXICONS, Strong's, Young's. These are the reference tools the BIBLE was written out of. They Used these exact tools to write our BIBLES. except for this modern day stuff. That is why YOUNG.s, Strong's. "ISBE" Brown's and D and Bauer Arndt Lexicons, and the Englishman greek and Englishman Hebrew, concordance, all these were tied together. EVERYTHING all of these work to gather so the "STUDENT of GOD" need not to be ashamed. Foot notes can be dangerous. avoid them if possible and lazy.

Now days we have a lot of "Bumble Bees" running a making a lot of noise and have not realize it is about "the honey" and not noise. And always slinging things they have heard and not dug out with their bare hands. But loves plagiarism.

(Isaiah 3) ASV
12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
 
Loyal
The bible never directs us to place hope in going to heaven, always to resurrection
Yet it tells us here that when we are absent from the bod (when we die) , meaning our spirit will be in heaven with Jesus, since we know that is his home

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.



Paul would rather die and be at home with the lord then be here in his tent(means body)

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.


we die our spirits go to heaven
 
Loyal
It says plainly He will come back and get us and catch us up "into" the sky
and take us where he will be and there we will always be with Him. "That was a promise" plain and simple.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ..
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this seems to be speaking of Jesus return to earth his second coming with all the saints that have died and before they return to earth those left will be called up to the air to receive there glorified bodies, but not before those that have already died. Meaning the rapture and second coming seem to happen at pretty close to the same time
 
Loyal
Yet it tells us here that when we are absent from the bod (when we die) , meaning our spirit will be in heaven with Jesus, since we know that is his home

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.



Paul would rather die and be at home with the lord then be here in his tent(means body)

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.


we die our spirits go to heaven
Youre reading into the text what's not there. None of them mentions heaven.
 
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