What was Jesus saying when He said "you must be born again"

[Brother-Paul]

Did the Holy Spirit indwell Nicodemus Because the Lord had not ascended and He had not sent the comforter.

On the basis discussed so far, I would say no the Spirit did not indwelling Nic. The Holy Spirit came upon certain people, prophets and others in the OT it didn't indwelling them. The indwelling came from Pentecost onwards.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry Sue just notice it was for you!

 

[Samson2020]

Did the Holy Spirit indwell Nicodemus Because the Lord had not ascended and He had not sent the comforter.

Just my 2 cents here but no he did not have the Holy Ghost as it was not given until after the ascension. Thats scriptural.
The 1 thing that seems to be overlooked, I see, is that there was a Holy Spirit anointing for ministry, or prophetic work i.e. John the Baptist, Elijah,
Isaiah, the OT prophets etc, and the quickening unto life that occurs when one is Baptized in the Holy Spirit. The quickening brings one into life
spiritually, but the anointing for ministry or prophetic works of OT times is not the same otherwise John the Baptist would have been born again,
but Jesus tells us that even though John was the greatest man ever born of a woman that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he and he had
an anointing for sure, but it was just for ministry.

 

[B-A-C]

John the baptist was a special case. He had the Holy Spirit before he was born.

But he is the only person in the Bible that this happened to.

 

[rhern53]

points to ponder:

the Holy spirit has been active throughout even before Adam.

I am asking:

what is so different about the comforter, has there always been only one Holy Spirit or does the Holy Spirit have more than one role to play or are there more than one Holy Spirit.

Jesus said He must ascend in order to send the Comforter. I want to get your responses before I present another thought which Just came to me.

 

[B-A-C]

It's like '@Brother-Paul' said. In the old testament, the Holy Spirit came upon some specific prophets, judges, and leaders. Not everyone in Israel.

7 days after Jesus ascended... Pentecost came.
Anyone, everyone in the church could receive the Holy Spirit. Not just prophets and judges.

There seems to be a consistent wording difference.. In the OT , the Spirit came 'upon' various people at different times.
In the NT, the Holy Spirit dwells 'within' us. Even the 70 who had the power to cast out demons just had authority placed 'upon' them.
This was different from having the Holy Spirit dwell within them.

There is yet a third perspective.. almost all Pentecostal churches believe in something called 'the Baptism' of the Holy Spirit which separate from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
This is where the 'gifts of the Spirit ( 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14 ) come in. No Pentecostal churches believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the same instant you get saved. They believe
it is always a second occurrence that happens later. (Maybe minutes later, maybe years later, but always separately).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit : revisited

This has been talked about before here, but recent threads have reminded me about it again. Some denominations believe you either have the Holy Spirit, or you don't. Virtually all Pentecostal denominations believe in two separate events. 1. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit 2. The "baptism" of...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[rhern53]

there are several passages that speak of the seven spirits:

Revelation 5:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And I looked, [a]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain,

having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[Sue D.]

It's like '@Brother-Paul' said. In the old testament, the Holy Spirit came upon some specific prophets, judges, and leaders. Not everyone in Israel.

7 days after Jesus ascended... Pentecost came.
Anyone, everyone in the church could receive the Holy Spirit. Not just prophets and judges.

There seems to be a consistent wording difference.. In the OT , the Spirit came 'upon' various people at different times.
In the NT, the Holy Spirit dwells 'within' us. Even the 70 who had the power to cast out demons just had authority placed 'upon' them.
This was different from having the Holy Spirit dwell within them.

There is yet a third perspective.. almost all Pentecostal churches believe in something called 'the Baptism' of the Holy Spirit which separate from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
This is where the 'gifts of the Spirit ( 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14 ) come in. No Pentecostal churches believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the same instant you get saved. They believe
it is always a second occurrence that happens later. (Maybe minutes later, maybe years later, but always separately).

Baptism in the Holy Spirit : revisited

This has been talked about before here, but recent threads have reminded me about it again. Some denominations believe you either have the Holy Spirit, or you don't. Virtually all Pentecostal denominations believe in two separate events. 1. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit 2. The "baptism" of...

www.talkjesus.com

Actually -- 'the Baptism of the Holy Spirit' is the only / one-time entering a person at the time of their salvation.

The gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 are 'the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another 'faith' by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing , to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues." vs 11 but one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." The "He" is capitalized meaning as the Holy Spirit wills -- not the individual person wants.

/Ch 12 Continues vs 28 "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

Continuing to chapter 14 -- down-playing the gift of tongues. The Spiritual gifts that a person Does have are to be used for the edification of the church body. Not for personal edification. And speaking in a tongue generally would be confusing to the body of believers Unless there is an interpreter there and can interpret Immediately. And then only two or at the most three people speaking and being interpreted.

In those two chapters , there's nothing about 'the Baptism of the Holy Spirit" -- that which I Have noticed in the one Pentecostal church I went to many years ago. My four kids were little then, and that particular church was walking distance so we went to three different services. What I Did notice was that the pastor would use his voice to work up the emotions of the congretation. A few people Would start muttering and some came down front -- the slaying of the spirit apparently. it was really kind of creepy -- never went again. Because I have Also been to churches where it was apparent that the Holy Spirit was working in the hearts of people. An atmosphere came over the congregation and people were being saved. But there was No speaking in tongues or slaying of the spirit or anything like that. But the presence Of the Holy Spirit was almost 'tangable.'. And there is Definitely a difference.

And that 3rd perspective is where they deviate somewhat from Scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

And that 3rd perspective is where they deviate somewhat from Scripture.

Make you a deal. I'll show you six places where it didn't happen at the moment of salvation. You show me one single instance where it did.

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- it's the Holy Spirit coming to indwell a person at the time of their salvation that we're talking about. Take a look at Ephesians 1:13 - 14 . Having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The fruit Of the Holy Spirit -- love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self - control."

No one can see what's happening in a person's heart except what is shown in their lives.

Are you talking about the Holy Spirit coming upon a person at their salvation? I could feel it the moment it happened.

If you're talking about Old Testament saints and how they were saved and the Holy Spirit coming to indwell them. Everyone has been saved the same way. By anticipating what Scripture promised and believing in the future event taking place -- living during the time of the crucifixion and seeing it take place and looking back and accepting what took place those years ago. It's where we place our faith -- back then Jesus Christ could only be at one place at a time. There were crowds around Him constantly.

I"m sure a person could find Scripture to verify anything they want to. A person's salvation is the most important decision they'll ever make in this life time. And this is the only life-time they have in which to do it.

What about the moment of your own salvation.

 

[Sue D.]

There are those who believe that unless a person Does receive a 'second blessing' that they aren't Really saved. The same applies to speaking in tongues as well as baptism. So maybe clerification of what constitutes basic salvation is a good idea -- which is what this thread is about.

 

[Brother-Paul]

there are several passages that speak of the seven spirits:

I was only reading a little on this yesterday.

1. Spirit of the Lord.
2. Spirit of Knowledge.
3. Spirit of Understanding.
4. Spirit of Wisdom.
5. Spirit of Counsel.
6. Spirit of Power.
7. Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

The seven Spirits are the seven stars.

In the Christian Bible, the term Seven Spirits of God appears four times in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 1:4-6 (NKJV)
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 3:1 (NKJV)
1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 4:4-5 (NKJV)
4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6-7 (NKJV)
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

The lampstand with 7 lamps on top, is John remembering or being reminded of the following?

Zechariah 4:10 (NKJV)
10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

This verse though linking with what John said in Revelation, is always handy to cling to, especially when suffering trials, as we all do, and as many are right now.

We are under the watchful eye of God through the ministry and presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives

When we invite the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts, and become new creations, born again from above, the seven eyes and seven lamps as described above show that God is always watching over us, and He is mighty to save and to deliver us out of sin and darkness and into His wonderful and glorious light.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There are also the Fruits of the Spirit

Galatians 5:22-26 (NKJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[B-A-C]

1. Spirit of the Lord.
2. Spirit of Knowledge.
3. Spirit of Understanding.
4. Spirit of Wisdom.
5. Spirit of Counsel.
6. Spirit of Power.
7. Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

I have heard this before. I know some of this is taken from verses like Isaiah 11:2; Exod 31:3; and Exod 35:31;
But I wonder if they are seven different Spirits. (I don't doubt there are 7 Spirits, I just don't know if these are the seven).

1 Cor 12.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

[B-A-C]

There are also the Fruits of the Spirit

Not fruit(s). Only fruit. No plural s on the end.
You either have it, or you don't. Not I have some of them, and not others of them.

... but we are starting to get closer to what the being born again really means.

 

[B-A-C]

Are you talking about the Holy Spirit coming upon a person at their salvation? I could feel it the moment it happened.

Sue... I don't really know you. I've never met you. I've only read what you've posted here on TJ. It's all I have to go by... but from what I've seen, I would say you are saved and have the Holy Spirit.

Still....
I've heard Universalists, Antimonians, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses tell me that exact same sentence... "it's something I 'felt'". But is it really really just a feeling?

Acts 1:8; 1 Cor 4:20;

It is something I have "felt" from time to time also. Certainly not just once, but I'm not sure we can base this on just a feeling.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I have heard this before. I know some of this is taken from verses like Isaiah 11:2; Exod 31:3; and Exod 35:31;
But I wonder if they are seven different Spirits. (I don't doubt there are 7 Spirits, I just don't know if these are the seven).

1 Cor 12.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

There is only one Holy Spirit, his part of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The seven spirits are all part of the Holy Spirit, the seven parts of the Holy Spirit represent His work.

Yet again the number is '7', the completeness of God, in this case the completeness of the 'Work of the Holy Spirit'

One Holy Spirit, there are 7 works/jobs of the Holy Spirit

1. Spirit of the Lord.
2. Spirit of Knowledge.
3. Spirit of Understanding.
4. Spirit of Wisdom.
5. Spirit of Counsel.
6. Spirit of Power.
7. Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

So when we are born again, from above, the Holy Spirit abides in us, doing is work within us as we 'Practice Righteous'

Isn't that wonderful brother. Now that is a Free Gift of God Love in action.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Not fruit(s). Only fruit. No plural s on the end.
You either have it, or you don't. Not I have some of them, and not others of them.

... but we are starting to get closer to what the being born again really means.

Thanks brother slip of the finger(s)
Keyboards where never made for men.

 

[Brother-Paul]

points to ponder:

the Holy spirit has been active throughout even before Adam.

I am asking:

what is so different about the comforter, has there always been only one Holy Spirit or does the Holy Spirit have more than one role to play or are there more than one Holy Spirit.

Jesus said He must ascend in order to send the Comforter. I want to get your responses before I present another thought which Just came to me.

There has only ever been one Holy Spirit, he hovered over the deep at creation, he came upon various prophets and others in the OT, as previously discussed.

But from Pentecost the Holy Spirit indwells the saved soul, he creates the new heart in the believer, a heart of flesh not a heart of stone. When a person is born again from above, and the spirit indwells them, his work in them has just begun.

1. Spirit of the Lord.
2. Spirit of Knowledge.
3. Spirit of Understanding.
4. Spirit of Wisdom.
5. Spirit of Counsel.
6. Spirit of Power.
7. Spirit of the Fear of the Lord.

He reveals the Truth in the Word, He gives us knowledge and wisdom as well as understanding, He gives us power to overcome, to be more than conquerors, He provides and gives us understanding regarding the fear of the Lord, He is the promised Counsellor who works in our heart and mind bring us to righteousness, bring us to God through Jesus, preparing us for our new life with Christ in the New Jerusalem on the new earth.

To God be the Glory TGBTG in Jesus Name Amen

 

[Brother-Paul]

Are you talking about the Holy Spirit coming upon a person at their salvation? I could feel it the moment it happened.

Greeting Sue, there is only one Holy Spirit, as there is only one Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The Holy spirit is the one who indwells the soul of the person who has just been born again from above yes.

But this same Holy Spirit has 7 jobs, 7 tasks in every believer.

See post 177 to 179 above save me retyping.

What our dear friend is doing is trying to get us to see when we as saved souls receive the Hoy Spirit, do we realise what His tasks are on every believer, what is 7 jobs are, what he does, what he reveals.

I hope I am explaining this clearly.

I am pleased our dear friend has given us some pointers as to what he was trying to get over, in the beginning of the discussions I felt, especially reading our replied, that he hadn't done so. That is not intended to be critism of our dear brother, no not at all, I am sure he has helped bring out more from the scriptures than we possibly realised. The Bible, the Word of God tells us to encourage one another and search the scriptures.

Shalom