A great book about all this is Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-vs-Christians Debate by Justin Lee. Just recommending.
Well, if you consider the scriptures as coming from God himself, then Christ who happens to be God mentioned it many times in the Bible.I've never contested that Homosexuality is a sin, although i do wonder about the prominence its given by some Christians, Christ never mentioned it once
There is only "one" way, not multiple routes or ways to salvation (John 14:6). Poverty has never saved anyone or all the poor would be saved!i meant that Jesus is the only route, but there are many different ways to get to him, for Lazarus the Beggar it seemed that his poverty was the answer,
Salvation is of "grace" through "faith". (Eph 2:8) It has nothing to do with any actions a person does, Even if a person lays down his own life to be burned, and does not "have Love" (God is love) it does absolutely no good!who is to say that the Love a Homosexual shows in their life for others will not be viewed by god as sufficient to be granted salvation,
Jesus said....Christs words to Judge not, lest you be judged"
Salvation is of "grace" through "faith". (Eph 2:8) It has nothing to do with any actions a person does, Even if a person lays down his own life to be burned, and does not "have Love" (God is love) it does absolutely no good!
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
This verse comes from a very interesting chapterSalvation is of "grace" through "faith". (Eph 2:8) It has nothing to do with any actions a person does, Even if a person lays down his own life to be burned, and does not "have Love" (God is love) it does absolutely no good!
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
So true Sue,If a person reads the first chapter of Romans -- around verse 26 or so. It explains quite clearly the nature Of homosexual desires. And as it Is true that man Can be 'loving' towards other men -- a Lot of 'us' find it very 'unnatural' when men get chummy in public. Most of the time, ya don't even see heterosexual couples getting 'chummy ' in public. There's the nice friendly 'hi' or 'goodbye' hug / kiss at an airport, etc. But that feels Natural. It Looks 'natural. That's the way God planned it.
Not sure what point you're making about the situation in the OT, i was talking of what Christ said about riches, and i've heard it said so many times by those trying to justify their wealth that its not the possession of Riches thats the problem its their attitude towards it, in Matthew 6 vs 19-24 Christs says "do not store up treasure on Earth... for where your treasure is, your heart will be also", the very act of being rich shows your attitude towards money, you're keeping it for yourself and thats where your Heart will be, not with God but with your riches, in Mark 4 vs 19 Christ speaks of "The cares of this world and the deceitfulness of Riches,...... choke the word and it becomes unfruitful", riches buy us comfort, prestige and power, they are the Mammon of this World , and as Christ said, you can't serve God and Mammon, in Luke 6 vs 24 Christ says, "But woe unto you that are Rich, for you have received your consolation", which is further illustrated in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man where Abraham says in Luke 16 vs 19-31," ... the rich man died and was buried, And in Hell he lifted up his eyes",... why did he go to Hell, well the answer would seem to be in vs 25 " Son, remember that in your lifetime you received good things, and Lazarus Evil things, but now he is comforted, and you are tormented", and the Rich young ruler was told to give all he had to the poor which he couldn't do, for Christ loved him and knew that the possession of Riches will be an almost insurmountable barrier to entering heaven, "who then can be saved" asked the Disciples, following the tradition of regarding the Rich and powerful as being blessed by God, to which Christ replied, "with God all things are possible",...... i fear that you have been deceived, like many, into following the belief that its the attitude to riches thats the problem, its not, its the possession, for how can a Christian say they Love God and their Neighbour when owning wealth in a World where hundreds of millions of people are hungry, sick and homeless, for its in the face of the Hungry, the sick and the homeless that we see Christ, and he asks us the question, which is more important, our wealth , or our Love of God?.Abraham was rich, Job was rich, all Jews who tithed were promised riches. Rich is not the problem. Love of riches is. Jesus told the young rich man to sell all he had because money was his god. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle because a rich man who is in love with his money does not consider God. He wakes up in the morning and says ''what can I do today'', and not ''what does God want me to do today''.
Discriminating against someone ''because of what they do'' is not on par with discriminating who they are. Hating black people is wrong. A black person had nothing to do with his color. Hating white people is wrong. Why people had nothing to do with their color. Hating a woman as man is wrong. A woman had nothing to do with being born who she is. Hating men is wrong. A man had nothing to do with being born as a man. Hating Jews is wrong. A Jew had nothing to with their family tree.
I like how the GLBT crowd throw want to belong to the same bracket as the above. It is hilarious. Choosing daily to go against the natural cause for which your body is created is not the same as being born a certain color.
If I do something that offends you, I should LEAVE you the HELL alone. If I don't, I am over riding YOUR FREE WILL. Leftist socialism.
But lets group racists and homophobes together, they the same. Let's also not differentiate between those who want to kill me and hate me (like racists do) with those who just hate my sin. Lets be 100% braindead in our reasoning. Skin color = Sodomy. Hating sin = hating sinner.
Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, you seem confident in taking on the mantle of God in deciding who will and who won't be saved, i leave that to God, i have met people who dedicate their lives to the helping of those in need who don't believe in god, and i have met many Christians who are rich and comfortable and seem confident in their salvation, who are the Sheep and who are the Goats, i leave that for God to decide.I truly don't know what is so hard to understand. The bible talks of two types of people. For 4 000 years there was a separation in Hades of these two types. The one is a sinner who does not ever want to repent. The other is a sinner who does desire true repentance. One loves sin. The other hates sin. God wants those who hate sin with Him, because He also hates sin. He summarized His laws in ten commandments. The first 4 have to do with us loving Him directly. The next 6 with us loving Him by loving others. He says in these 6 that we love others by not stealing, killing, bearing false, adultery or coveting their goods. It does not say we love others by condoning their sin.
So, I can with confidence tell you that if you think unrepentant GLBT's will be in heaven, I can promise you that God and the repentant GLBT's will be in '''hell'''.
Where is the love of God? People hate God. He is compassionate and loving in that He creates an eternal home for all who don't want to be with Him. He could annihilate the wicked. He doesn't. Then He shows love and compassion to those who, like Him, hate the darkness, by separating them from those who don't.
Seems to me that is for Christ to say and not us, and as for Love and Compassion always speaking the truth, you really believe that, if someones heart is breaking, perhaps a little dose of your "truth" would be enough to send them over the edge, is that the Love and Compassion you feel Christ would want you to express?.God is "love". Was Jesus walking in love when he told the religious leaders of his day that, "their father was the Devil, and the lusts of their father they would do"? (John 8:44)
Love, and compassion always speaks the truth even when it is not popular, or pleasing to our ears!!
Pro 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
So you test yourself, i wonder how many of us fail, how many of us classify ourselves with the condemned, according to christ, not very many...... or could it just be that what they're lacking is LOVE, they're going through the motions, but have failed to understand that at the heart of our faith must be LOVE, or we are lost,.....again we're gonna have to agree to disagree, for me the meaning is simple, the crowd, in righteous indignation at her sin were ready and willing to pass judgement, Christs words were aimed at the crowd, the good people so intent on fulfilling the law, but lacking any notion of compassion and mercy, and the message as i see it is clear, we as sinners ourselves are not competent or commanded to pass judgement on others, ....... i guess then that none of us have yet been "Born of God", for we all, including the woman, will continue to sin,2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Matt 7:22 is the verse you quoting. People prophecy, heal the sick and cast out demons. All acts that can push vanity. If they were to judge themselves truthfully they would grasp their charade. As would any GLBT thinking they are saved.
This has to be GLBT's most quoted verse from scripture. I have heard Christians try explain the context a million times to GLBT's and yet they still continue with the same cherry picked out of context interpretation as you do.
The punishment that Jesus stopped was a stoning to death. Jesus was raising an argument from Rom 6:23 Wages of sin is death. All had sin. Nobody could / should cast a stone that....results in death. As I have said to twice already, Psalm 51:17 was available to the mortal sinner who could still repent. Would still be able to repent as they were not yet sold out to the sin. He would only have stopped it if He felt she was not ''sold out'' to the mortal sin. As we know (as you have quoted) God annihilated entire nations that were sold out to sin Gen 18:20, Gen 15:16. Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
We could go round in circles on this but i'll just say that when Christ condemned the Rich, the disciples were astonished because to them , as Jews, riches were a sign of favour from God, hence their reply, if the rich can't be saved, then who can, to which Christ replied, with God everything is possible, i put no constraints on God, ....... you seem to have a very Black/White picture of salvation, a bit like crossing the "t's" and dotting all the "i's", seems to me that our lives on this Earth aren't like that they are messed up, mixed with different emotions and without an agreement of what is sin and what isn't, does the Love we show for others Trump some of the sins we commit, whether we reopent or not, will our genetic inheritance, our background, our life experiences all be taken into account, what did Christ mean when he said "to whom much is given, much will be expected", my view of salvation, like my view of life in general is one of different shades of Grey, seems to me that none of us are white or black, somewhere on that spectrum we all fall, and whether that point is sufficient for us being saved is for God to decide...... and yes i agree, no body gets to the Father but through Christ, but the question is, how do we get to Christ, there we disagree for i see many different routes.Note, Jesus told the young rich man to sell all He had. Note the verses after speak to 'following Him' (Matt 19:28) and 'forsaken all' (Matt 19:29). So whilst God can do '''anything''' He chooses to '''do''' what is right and not over ride our free will to choose to '''not'' sell all our riches, follow Him or forsake all for Him. Is this really that hard to understand. You are utterly abusing that line from Jesus. Cherry picking it completely out of its much needed context.
You have wishful thinking. Hating sin = stopping = repentance = accepting Jesus. You cannot hate sin if you don't repent. You cannot stop sinning if you don't repent and hate sin. You cannot accept Jesus if you love what is wicked. That is the ''verdict''. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Nobody gets to heaven without accepting Jesus John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
What would you say to the adulterer? Go and sin further? Do you believe Rom 7:15 is Paul talking to still committing the mortal sin of murder? Yes or No?
Jesus said this in addition to your line John 8:11 Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
If Jesus said this to you Lev 18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. and you disobeyed Him and continued in the sin unrepentant. Well then this verse from Paul is for you / us Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.
Why do you call Homosexuals/GLBT a crowd?, for they are surely like you and me, made in the image of God, i fear your prejudice may be clouding your reasoning, ... and sexual sins aren't a "Hot topic" with me, what i find distressing is the attitude of some members of the Christian Community towards Gay people who appear to hate the sinner as much as they hate the sin,...... and i have never claimed that "all sin is sin" its just that i see Christs priorities as more concerned with Riches and indifference to the poor and marginalised than with the "Wickedness of Sodomy",...... but whatever the priority it seems to me we must approach the sinner with Compassion and Mercy, not condemnation and prejudice.You are just blurring the issue. I have said why homosexuals / GLBT crowd is an issue. I have touched on leftist socialism. I have explained mortal sins. I have explained God's reasoning for capital punishment on the sin.
Sexual sins like those you mention will always be a ''hot'' topic as those in it want our approval and those who strive to be righteous will never give it.
You will never get a '''all sin is sin''' statement from me as I have a working brain and am not stupid. We all have the ability to grasp the wickedness of sodomy. You are fooling nobody. Especially not God.
True, i wouldn't say many times, i think it was 5 times in the NT, but if you were to add up the number of times Christ talks of Riches, justice and Compassion for those in need, or if you look at the teaching of the prophets in the OT on the same subject, then perhaps you would come to some understanding of Gods priorities,...... ?,Well, if you consider the scriptures as coming from God himself, then Christ who happens to be God mentioned it many times in the Bible.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
I've got to disagree with you there Brother Paul, in my life i've known 6 openly Gay men, including my son, and i hope you'll believe me when i tell you that none of them chose thatb life, two died because of it, one was murdered, one died from AIDS, two others had spells in prison because of it, i read that suicide rates amongst Transgender and Gay youngsters are 3 times more than their Heterosexual counterparts, they face discrimination Hate and abuse on a daily basis and many seek to hide of surpress their homosexuality because of it, and as i've said current medical opinion is firmly of the view that people are in the main born homosexual, to them its perfectly natural, there really is no debate on the issue, except perhaps in certain religious circles where its sometimes deemed a "Lifestyle Choice", but who would choose that Lifestyle, seems to me that only Masochists or those with severe mental issues would do so, and some of the comments on these boards only re-enforce that opinion.#366 posts and counting and the topic was summed up near the start.
No one is born Gay!
If you hate someone you will just compromise what you believe to make them happy is that what you think? No where in scripture does it says to speak your own words or compromise truth in any way, it says if any man speaks let him speak the very words of God!!Seems to me that is for Christ to say and not us, and as for Love and Compassion always speaking the truth, you really believe that, if someones heart is breaking, perhaps a little dose of your "truth" would be enough to send them over the edge, is that the Love and Compassion you feel Christ would want you to express?.
... and which of us, being miserable sinners, feel assured that we are can judge with "righteous judgement", for even Christ when called "Good master" replied, "who calls me good, no one is good except my Father in heaven", seems to me that we're in danger of falling into the trap of the Pharisee convinced of his own righteousness and not the Publican who wouldn't even raise his eyes to heaven, or do you feel that you have indeed taken the "log" out of your own eye to see clearly to judge others, because i definitely don't.Jesus said....
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Those who are always saying to not judge do not understand scriptures, but twist them to their own destruction.
Jesus did NOT say to never Judge, but to judge according to righteousness.
Mat 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Now we know exactly what Jesus meant when it comes to judging. Make sure if you are judging someone that you are not doing the same thing they are because you are going to judged with the same judgment!!
Take out the log in your eye first them you will be able to see clearly to take the spec out of your brothers eye!
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
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