What does Jesus mean when he says

Barny · Feb 5, 2013

Hi B-A-C,

In referring to modern versions of the Bible, it's causing confusion for you. Modern versions of the Bible are ambiguous and best avoided.

Note how you suggested in an earlier post that 7 trillion x 7 trillion offenses is not "habitual", "practices" sin. I guess you then realized that this claim was a contradiction and later you suggested that God has limits to forgiveness when you said we should not test how forgiving He is.

Clearly 7 trillion x 7 trillion offenses is "habitual". Hence, based on those misleading modern versions of the Bible, such persons have not known Christ (1John 3:6) as they are of the devil (1John 3:8). And this is based on how good a lifestyle they live (sounds more like a doctrine of works instead of grace).

Can you see that those misleading modern versions of the Bible are leading you into doubting God's grace by your adding that a certain, unknown minimum standard of lifestyle/behavior is required to confirm one's salvation?
And this confusion all comes from trusting in modern versions of the Bible that are, ambiguous, at best.

Consider God's example of grace that we see in the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". His salvation had absolutely nothing to do with his lifestyle/behavior.
God would be an unjust God when that thief got saved without any consideration of his lifestyle/behavior (grace) whilst others (like us here) must attain an unknown minimum standard of lifestyle to prove that we know Christ.

B-A-C · Feb 5, 2013

Barny said:
Hi B-A-C,

In referring to modern versions of the Bible, it's causing confusion for you. Modern versions of the Bible are ambiguous and best avoided.

Can you see that those misleading modern versions of the Bible are leading you into doubting God's grace by your adding that a certain, unknown minimum standard of lifestyle/behavior is required to confirm one's salvation?
And this confusion all comes from trusting in modern versions of the Bible that are, ambiguous, at best.

Consider God's example of grace that we see in the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". His salvation had absolutely nothing to do with his lifestyle/behavior.
God would be an unjust God when that thief got saved without any consideration of his lifestyle/behavior (grace) whilst others (like us here) must attain an unknown minimum standard of lifestyle to prove that we know Christ.

Nobody said anything about anyone's salvation depending on this.

But we are called to live Holy lives. We are called to righteousness. We are called to be a light to the world. We are called to be salt of the earth.
We are called to be an example. We are called to be different. We are told to stop sinning.

The Bible doesn't say you will lose your salvation from sinning too much. But it says we should practice righteousness.
Remember there were two thieves on the crosses, one made a choice to follow Jesus, the other didn't.

Matt 5:14; Matt 5:13; 1 Pet 1:16; 1 Cor 15:43;

Why are you looking for the "minimum standard" to follow Jesus, instead of looking for the most you can do for him?

John 14:15; 2 Jn 1:6; John 14:21

What do you have against righteousness? Why wouldn't you want to be a light to the world. Why wouldn't you want to show Jesus you love him?

As for "modern versions" here is both King James, and the original Greek.

Gal 5:19 NowG1161 theG3588 worksG2041 of theG3588 fleshG4561 areG2076 manifest,G5318 whichG3748 areG2076 these; Adultery,G3430 fornication,G4202 uncleanness,G167 lasciviousness,G766
Gal 5:20 Idolatry,G1495 witchcraft,G5331 hatred,G2189 variance,G2054 emulations,G2205 wrath,G2372 strife,G2052 seditions,G1370 heresies,G139
Gal 5:21 Envyings,G5355 murders,G5408 drunkenness,G3178 revellings,G2970 andG2532 suchG5125 like:G3664 of the whichG3739 I tell you before,G4302 G5213 asG2531 I have alsoG2532 told you in time past,G4277 thatG3754 they which doG4238 such thingsG5108 shall notG3756 inheritG2816 the kingdomG932 of God.G2316

G4238
πράσσω
prassō
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

Is that non modern enough for you?
Do you really hate Jesus that much? What he did for you doesn't matter? I've got my salvation, it doesn't matter if I sin, so I'll sin all I want to.
That's really the doctrine you want to preach on here?

B-A-C · Feb 5, 2013

Luk 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
Luk 23:40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luk 23:41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
Luk 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

The second thief actually had several revelations here.
1. God is going to judge and condemn those who are saved. (verse 40)
2. He confessed he was sinner and he rightly deserved to die. (verse 41)
3. Jesus was innocent, and didn't deserve to die. (verse 41)
4. He recognized Jesus had a future kingdom and he wanted to part of it (verse 42)
5. He recognized Jesus as his savior (verse 42)

I would say that was quite a lifestyle change in the short time he had left on the cross.

brakelite · Feb 5, 2013

B-A-C said:
Very good point, I believe this can and does happen. Otherwise the kingdom of God is only in Words and not in power. ( 1 Cor 4:20 )
But does this happen all at once upon the moment of Salvation? Or is this an on-going process? I know some people who quit drinking, cursing, smoking, the day they got saved and haven't done those particular things in many years. (They still confess other sins from time to time). I know other people that have been saved for years and still struggle with many things.
I believe that when we have these victories over sin, it is only by Christ. But do we ever truly conquer sin 100% while we are still flesh and blood?

Hi BAC, I would go so far as to say unequivocally that unless one is of a mind that sin is utterly repugnant, he will not be saved. That is what being born again means. What we once loved, we now hate. Did we not once love to sin? Did we not used to relish getting stoned, or drunk? Did we not look forward to the week-ends when we could shed our inhibitions and lust for women, entertainment, and 'good-times'? Did we not enjoy a good fight, whether we were involved or not, did not violence in whatever form entertain us? What we wanted, we stole, and if got away with it, did we not rejoice? I could go on, but think about your own past, did you not at one time enjoy sin in a variety of forms? Can we not all be honest about that? Now let me tell you. Unless your attitude has radically changed, and you now hate what you once loved, and love what you once hated, then you are not, I repeat not, born again. And except you are born again, you shall never see the kingdom of God.
I make no apology for what I have said above, that is the way it is. That is not legalism, it is the gospel. It is the power of God to change lives to make them meet for the kingdom of God. Such a radical alteration in a life is not something we can conjuor up on our own, nor is it something we can attain through 'self-improvement' classes at the local high school. Neither is it striving, or 'trying hard', or 'doing our best'. It is simply a matter of surrendering to the God of love, grace and mercy that He may work in us His righteousness.
And yes BAC, it starts immediately upon one receiving Jesus (to them gave He power to become God's children) and continues throughout our lives. As the Holy Spirit reveals God's righteousness whether through His law or by revelation, and we become aware of our own shortcomings, we thank Him for Jesus , we don't keep any secrets from Him so we confess our sin, He has already forgiven us in Christ so we thank Him again, and we trust Him to take away that which we have grown to hate. And progressively we are changed into the image of Jesus. What a wonderful gracious God we serve. He accepts us as we are, but never leaves us as we are. Praise God!

brakelite · Feb 5, 2013

Barny said:
Consider God's example of grace that we see in the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". His salvation had absolutely nothing to do with his lifestyle/behavior.
God would be an unjust God when that thief got saved without any consideration of his lifestyle/behavior (grace) whilst others (like us here) must attain an unknown minimum standard of lifestyle to prove that we know Christ.

Hey Barny. I do not think BAC is saying that we must attain a minimum standard of behaviour to prove anything. The standard has already been set..."be ye perfect". Anything less than that is insufficient. That said, nor do we have to 'prove' our worthiness. Jesus has made us worthy, the Father has declared us worthy, what can we add to that? And that is the key to our perfection. As we place ourselves in His care and under His Lordship, God sees in us His Son. The fruit of God's declaration and our surrender is our sanctification. As we grow in Him, we keep no secrets, and as a flower bud at all stages of its growth is perfect, so long as it is growing and not dying, it is perfect. So also are we. So long as we are in Christ, we are perfect.
The thief, as you rightly said, did not have any opportunity to grow and be sanctified. Nevertheless, grow he will when he is received up into glory at the second coming. As we all will continue to grow throughout all eternity. The thief , at the time of his death, was living up to what light he had regarding the gospel of salvation, so also must we live fully up to what light we receive.

Christ4Ever · Feb 5, 2013

Barny said:
therefore we've "ceased from sin" 1 Pet 4:1

Just a quick note hare Barny. Reading through v2 which is a continuation from v1 and continue through v3, do this because it identifies the changed behavior as the cause and not that the behavior itself ceased to be sinful. For states rightfully "for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

We are in a growth process. Seeking in submission to Him as brakelite stated so well...so I'll quote him here

brakelite said:
It is as we surrender to Him, (not as we strive to be like Jesus) that He lives His life through us.

Not an easy process, for we are strong willed, more so sometimes when humility takes a back seat to pride. The pride in this case is the belief that we can do no wrong. Not saying you brother, just what seems to be an every present condition that "love" must accept everything, because by doing so we are showing the perfect expression of said "love". Love is shown in truth and by truly seeing our condition and the condition of others, we then can address the behavior in question, in a fashion that allows us/them to continue to move forward. Remember, our Lord never excused sin, what He did and does is forgive it. Two very different actions.

Awesome posting all! And with that last thought I will call it a good night, and pray a blessed one to all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus at TJ.
YBIC
C4E
John 14:21

Barny · Feb 5, 2013

B-A-C said:
Nobody said anything about anyone's salvation depending on this.
But we are called to live Holy lives. We are called to righteousness. We are called to be a light to the world. We are called to be salt of the earth.
We are called to be an example. We are called to be different. We are told to stop sinning.

Yes, as the blog question is about, we are asked to stop sinning. And the scriptures I've quoted confirm that Christians have stopped sinning.

But you speak of only reducing sinning.

Also Christians are righteous in Christ. Also holy (Rom 11:16) and perfected (Heb 10:14).

B-A-C said:
The Bible doesn't say you will lose your salvation from sinning too much. But it says we should practice righteousness.
Remember there were two thieves on the crosses, one made a choice to follow Jesus, the other didn't.
Matt 5:14; Matt 5:13; 1 Pet 1:16; 1 Cor 15:43;

Why are you looking for the "minimum standard" to follow Jesus, instead of looking for the most you can do for him?

The "minimum standard" is what the misleading modern versions of the Bible speak of. And this unknown "minimum standard" determines if one "knows Christ" 1John 3:6 or is "of the devil" 1John 3:8. This was the point I was trying to make to you in showing the contradictions to the gospel of grace that are drawn from the misleading modern versions of the bible.

It's those ambiguous modern versions of the Bible that suggest that a unknown "minimum standard" of lifestyle is required to prove you know Christ. Your own confusion in our discussions on this prove this.

B-A-C said:
What do you have against righteousness? Why wouldn't you want to be a light to the world. Why wouldn't you want to show Jesus you love him?

I suspect you determine righteousness as lifestyle whereas I see our faith being counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
As for a Christian's lifestyle, God is the one who makes changes in that area. And the fact that we will all be at different stages of growth means some Christians showing nothing in lifestyle improvements (thief on cross an example) to those who show much.
But our lifestyle is not how our righteousness is determined.

B-A-C said:
Do you really hate Jesus that much? What he did for you doesn't matter? I've got my salvation, it doesn't matter if I sin, so I'll sin all I want to.
That's really the doctrine you want to preach on here?

You misunderstand me if this is truly what you think.
The scriptures I've quoted all confirm that Christians cannot sin. I suggest reading through them again.
I'm not speaking of the physical being perfect and without sin. It's clearly not. But its dead, by faith, because of sin anyway, Rom 8:10. So we don't determine righteousness by it's failure to be perfect.

I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ. Christians abide in Christ (1John 3:6) and in him is no sin. It's no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20.
If we're abiding in Christ how can Satan accuse us of sin, Rom 8:33?

Barny · Feb 5, 2013

brakelite said:
Hey Barny. I do not think BAC is saying that we must attain a minimum standard of behaviour to prove anything. The standard has already been set..."be ye perfect". Anything less than that is insufficient.That said, nor do we have to 'prove' our worthiness. Jesus has made us worthy, the Father has declared us worthy, what can we add to that? And that is the key to our perfection. As we place ourselves in His care and under His Lordship, God sees in us His Son. The fruit of God's declaration and our surrender is our sanctification. As we grow in Him, we keep no secrets, and as a flower bud at all stages of its growth is perfect, so long as it is growing and not dying, it is perfect. So also are we. So long as we are in Christ, we are perfect.

Hi brakelite,

Christians have been perfected by Christ one offering, Heb 10:14.
I agree with you that this is the standard we are at in Christ. In Christ we are perfect.

brakelite said:
The thief, as you rightly said, did not have any opportunity to grow and be sanctified. Nevertheless, grow he will when he is received up into glory at the second coming. As we all will continue to grow throughout all eternity. The thief , at the time of his death, was living up to what light he had regarding the gospel of salvation, so also must we live fully up to what light we receive.

Christians are sanctified by Christ's one offering, Heb 10:10. The thief on the cross, as we all, are sanctified immediately when we believe in Jesus. It's not a process.
"we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Barny · Feb 6, 2013

Christ4Ever said:
Just a quick note hare Barny. Reading through v2 which is a continuation from v1 and continue through v3, do this because it identifies the changed behavior as the cause and not that the behavior itself ceased to be sinful. For states rightfully "for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

Hi Christ4Ever,

I'll explain myself here further as it seems I'm being misunderstood.
Firstly I'd like to remind all here that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14-16. It's so easy to look only in physical terms and miss what God is saying.

1Pet 4:1,2
" since Christ suffered for us in the flesh (crucified) , arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6) , for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

The "lusts of men" is not speaking of bad lifestyle. It's speaking of unbelief in Jesus. Such are seeking to establish their own righteousness.

Christians however obey the will of God. And what's His will?
" this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;" John 6:40

Christ4Ever said:
We are in a growth process. Seeking in submission to Him as brakelite stated so well...so I'll quote him here

Not an easy process, for we are strong willed, more so sometimes when humility takes a back seat to pride. The pride in this case is the belief that we can do no wrong. Not saying you brother, just what seems to be an every present condition that "love" must accept everything, because by doing so we are showing the perfect expression of said "love". Love is shown in truth and by truly seeing our condition and the condition of others, we then can address the behavior in question, in a fashion that allows us/them to continue to move forward. Remember, our Lord never excused sin, what He did and does is forgive it. Two very different actions.

Awesome posting all! And with that last thought I will call it a good night, and pray a blessed one to all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus at TJ.
YBIC
C4E
John 14:21

I agree we're in a growth process, in various ways.

But in regards to righteousness, holiness, perfection, sinlessness, etc, we already have that being in Christ. I'm not speaking of the imperfect physical that many seem to focus on. The body is dead because of sin anyway, Rom 8:10.
I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ. We abide in him and in him is no sin, 1John 3:5,6.

Puddleglum · Feb 6, 2013

DHC said:
Hello puddlegum.

You said, "You know what sin does. deal with it."

I do not have to deal with sin, Christ has already
dealt with it.

Hebrews 10
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time
those who are sanctified.

Do I have to sanctify myself?

Hebrews 10:29
...and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherein
he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite
unto the Spirit of grace?

Puddlegum, where you are in error is the approach you
take in dealing with sin. You use the law to drive yourself
into Christ. This approach does not deal with the issue
of the deeds of the flesh. You will just bounce back and forth
from sin to Christ back to sin, etc.

Scripture outlines how the sinful nature is dealt with.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should
no longer be in bondage to sin;

We execute the body of sin with Jesus, no mercy is shown,
in order that we may gain life eternal. This is the only sure
way to deal with the bondage of sin. That is what following
Jesus entails, consider yourself dead to sin. Crucify the flesh
daily, do not tease the flesh with the letter of the law.

When the flesh is dead sin has been dealt with.

What i was refering to was the nations, look at the USA. it's sin that has brought about the problems we face and i don't see many Christians standing up but only siting down as our nations fall. Christians should not fall for all this PC rubbish pushed down our necks.
So it's sin ! is it not ? and i have never met anyone who does not sin and all of the Saints said they were siners that i know of.
Christianity is weak nowdays, due to what ? sin !
If people claiming to be Christians believe they don't sin, they are just fooling themselfs. i would say a Christian must repent and if not, there is not Christ in you.
The Blood does not mean anything at all, but what it signifies is what the point is all about. so blood is just blood really. i have this with people ranting about the blood as if they are on about the blood being blood, the blood is about the spirit running throught you, the life force.

brakelite · Feb 7, 2013

Christ4Ever said:
Just a quick note hare Barny. Reading through v2 which is a continuation from v1 and continue through v3, do this because it identifies the changed behavior as the cause and not that the behavior itself ceased to be sinful. For states rightfully "for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

We are in a growth process. Seeking in submission to Him as brakelite stated so well...so I'll quote him here

Not an easy process, for we are strong willed, more so sometimes when humility takes a back seat to pride. The pride in this case is the belief that we can do no wrong. Not saying you brother, just what seems to be an every present condition that "love" must accept everything, because by doing so we are showing the perfect expression of said "love". Love is shown in truth and by truly seeing our condition and the condition of others, we then can address the behavior in question, in a fashion that allows us/them to continue to move forward. Remember, our Lord never excused sin, what He did and does is forgive it. Two very different actions.

Awesome posting all! And with that last thought I will call it a good night, and pray a blessed one to all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus at TJ.
YBIC
C4E
John 14:21

Hi my bro, you have hit on one of my pet hates in this modern politically correct age, and that is the concept advanced by the "do-gooders" of society who in their godless thinking promote 'tolerance'. In the context of political correctness I have grown to hate that word. It has encumbered society with a tolerance for evil which has bound us to accept the Godless demands of the homosexual, the gangster, the atheist, the amoral, to a point now where governments the world over are now legislating positively in their favour. Grrrrr.

Christ4Ever · Feb 7, 2013

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Barny said:
Hi Christ4Ever,

I'll explain myself here further as it seems I'm being misunderstood.
Firstly I'd like to remind all here that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14-16. It's so easy to look only in physical terms and miss what God is saying.

1Pet 4:1,2
" since Christ suffered for us in the flesh (crucified) , arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6) , for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

The "lusts of men" is not speaking of bad lifestyle. It's speaking of unbelief in Jesus. Such are seeking to establish their own righteousness.

Christians however obey the will of God. And what's His will?
" this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;" John 6:40

I agree we're in a growth process, in various ways.

But in regards to righteousness, holiness, perfection, sinlessness, etc, we already have that being in Christ. I'm not speaking of the imperfect physical that many seem to focus on. The body is dead because of sin anyway, Rom 8:10.
I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ. We abide in him and in him is no sin, 1John 3:5,6.

Dear Barny,
On 1 Peter 4:1, 2, notice I also included v 3 which goes on to describe actions which are behavioral. In regards to “lusts of men”; it is just stating the opposite of what follows which is “…but for the will of God” meaning that the lusts of men is in actuality men’s will. I believe this to be so, because in v3 it continues on this thought in describing the past behavior and further defines man’s will in continuing lusts of men as follows:

“For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:” which you can see is descriptive of one's behavior prior to conversion and contrary to what? God’s will and not specific to the unbelief of Christ Jesus.

The spiritual life we are to live no way negates the physical nature of man, but it in no way negates the effect it has on man, be they saved or unsaved.

I get the impression from your posting that man's behavior to you is negated (If not I apologize ahead of time.). Time and time again, scripture be it through Christ Jesus as in John 7:24 or Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:11-12 has us be upfront in correcting said mentioned behavior, be it identified as sin or whatever word you choose to use in explaining behavior which is really disobedience to God's Will for us. Regardless of which you choose to use, these are acknowledged actions on the part of individuals who are saved. Always keep in mind however, that in using judgment it should not be a trivially done, but "rightly" done. The foundation for determining this has to be scripture.

The revealed Word to you of 1 Corinthians 2 is valid, in that we are spiritual concerning certain God given attributes through Christ Jesus. This is not about understanding this concept, but one of continuous application in a believers life of them which is truly freeing. Yet, we should not discount the level of where a person is when discussing this. If you continue on in Chapter 3 you will see that though himself (Paul) being spiritual. He could not deal with them in such fashion because they the church at Corinth were still carnal in nature, as many brothers and sisters in the body of Christ are today. He realized they were not yet ready for this. However, at no time did he excuse such behavior, rather re-enforced that they did not need to be bound by it but could overcome it through the spirit and not relinquish to the carnal nature existing and at war within them.

Remember, many at Corinth had pagan backgrounds, and those beliefs were not left behind at least in their minds, and probably in practice as well. Some of those practices almost by default, involved what I would call "spiritismo", but what we know are spiritual practices which are not of God. For them the confusion must have been great, since they had evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit that to them probably seemed familiar. Keep in mind that the counterfeit practices were rampant even then. I digress, sorry.

Each of us are in different places in our growth and walk. So making a statement that basically says "you are really at this level, but don't know it" to someone who lacks the revelation of the Word of God, does not benefit those who are not walking as further along as you might be spiritually.

That is why Paul continued to address the behavioral issues of that church, which is easily applicable to the church here and now. Sin? Carnal flesh still having dominance in the believer? Questions that can't be answered or are irrelevant since the conditions are self made don't really exist? Greater scrutiny of God's Word, and application is needed on all our parts brother, and prayerfully, so that we might be given the needed revelation so that we might truly comprehend, but also the wisdom to know when and how to use it.
Love you brother.
YBIC
C4E

1 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;

brakelite · Feb 7, 2013

Puddleglum said:
What i was refering to was the nations, look at the USA. it's sin that has brought about the problems we face and i don't see many Christians standing up but only siting down as our nations fall. Christians should not fall for all this PC rubbish pushed down our necks.
So it's sin ! is it not ? and i have never met anyone who does not sin and all of the Saints said they were siners that i know of.
Christianity is weak nowdays, due to what ? sin !
If people claiming to be Christians believe they don't sin, they are just fooling themselfs. i would say a Christian must repent and if not, there is not Christ in you.
The Blood does not mean anything at all, but what it signifies is what the point is all about. so blood is just blood really. i have this with people ranting about the blood as if they are on about the blood being blood, the blood is about the spirit running throught you, the life force.

I tend to agree with you here puddleglum. As a Christian draws closer to His Lord he ought to become more aware of his shortcomings and sinful behaviour, not less so. Any Christian who is not conscious of sin in his life is not living a life in connection with God, as it is our relationship with God, and His presence in our lives that reveals to us the truth about ourselves and who we really truly are. The wonderful thing about this is that as we become more aware of our humanness, so we become more aware of our need of His grace and mercy and love. And His grace is always sufficient. Let us not dwell however too long on our faults and sin. Let us focus on Him, His love and Fatherly care for us, and as we do this, He will change us and mould us according to His will and purpose.

Barny · Feb 8, 2013

Christ4Ever said:
 Dear Barny,
On 1 Peter 4:1, 2, notice I also included v 3 which goes on to describe actions which are behavioral. In regards to “lusts of men”; it is just stating the opposite of what follows which is “…but for the will of God” meaning that the lusts of men is in actuality men’s will. I believe this to be so, because in v3 it continues on this thought in describing the past behavior and further defines man’s will in continuing lusts of men as follows:

“For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:” which you can see is descriptive of one's behavior prior to conversion and contrary to what? God’s will and not specific to the unbelief of Christ Jesus.

The spiritual life we are to live no way negates the physical nature of man, but it in no way negates the effect it has on man, be they saved or unsaved.

I get the impression from your posting that man's behavior to you is negated (If not I apologize ahead of time.).

Hi Christ4Ever,

In a way you are correct, I am saying that man's physical behavior is negated. And what I mean by that is that it's negated in terms that our righteousness is not determined by it. God's example through the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord", confirms that our behavior is negated. Hence why scripture consistently confirms that in Christ we "cannot sin".

1Pet 4:3 you refer to is speaking in spiritual context, as Cor 2:14-16 shows.
If it spoke in physical terms then, for example, "excess of wine" and "banqueting" (both of which are not listed in the 10 commandments) would suggest that those guilty of such are unsaved.
Such views are clearly not based on salvation by grace, as God demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Even the Corinthians you referred to is speaking in spiritual terms. The fornication with the father's wife in 1Cor 5 speaks of spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 2:24.

Regarding wrong physical behavior, Christians will not profit by doing it. But it has no bearing upon our salvation as we're saved by grace.

blessings

B-A-C · Feb 8, 2013

Barny said:
Hi Christ4Ever,

In a way you are correct, I am saying that man's physical behavior is negated. And what I mean by that is that it's negated in terms that our righteousness is not determined by it. God's example through the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord", confirms that our behavior is negated. Hence why scripture consistently confirms that in Christ we "cannot sin".

1Pet 4:3 you refer to is speaking in spiritual context, as Cor 2:14-16 shows.
If it spoke in physical terms then, for example, "excess of wine" and "banqueting" (both of which are not listed in the 10 commandments) would suggest that those guilty of such are unsaved.
Such views are clearly not based on salvation by grace, as God demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Even the Corinthians you referred to is speaking in spiritual terms. The fornication with the father's wife in 1Cor 5 speaks of spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 2:24.

Regarding wrong physical behavior, Christians will not profit by doing it. But it has no bearing upon our salvation as we're saved by grace.

blessings

Huh??? First there is no Gal 2:24, but I suspect you meant 4:24
Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

This is talking about the saved ad unsaved. The person in 1 Cor 5 was obviously a believer.
The 10 commandments are not the only commandments in the Bible, there are dozens more.

1 Pet 4:1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
Jesus suffered in the flesh and didn't sin, therefore we should be of the same purpose. What is that purpose? The next verse tells us.
1 Pet 4:2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
1Pet 4:5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
1Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are not saved, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
What is the will of God? The opposite of what the people in verse3 are doing.
1 Pet 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Wrong physical behavior? LOL?? Is this the same as being morally challenged? Wrong physical behavior is sin no matter what you call it.
Some sins aren't just physical acts, but merely unclean thoughts.

While it's true it doesn't having bearing upon our salvation, it's something we are told not to do, and also Jesus said if we love him, we will keep his commandments.

B-A-C · Feb 8, 2013

Barny said:
Hence why scripture consistently confirms that in Christ we "cannot sin".

Since it's so consistent, it should be easy to supply several scriptures here. I have yet to see one.

Barny · Feb 8, 2013

B-A-C said:
Since it's so consistent, it should be easy to supply several scriptures here. I have yet to see one.

Hi B-A-C,

I've already shown you the scriptures in our previous discussions. Below is a copy of some of my original post from another topic that you might recall.

We'll start with definitions of "sin" to clarify things better.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.

2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1John 5:17 Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”, 1John 3:4 This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, Rom 8:2. Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.

Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” Rom 3:19,20.
"the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians) but for.....the ungodly and sinners" , 1Tim 1:9.
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9

We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Pet 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Rom 6:6) , for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.

Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.

Consider also 1Pet 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.

ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross ( Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

I have asked before how are subsequent sins dealt with since we see in Rom 3:25 that only past sin was dealt with at the cross.
Rom 3:25 confirms the scriptures above that state we've ceased from sin/cannot sin.

And anyone who does sin is:
A "servant of sin", John 8:34
"of the devil", 1John 3:8
has "not seen him, neither known him" (Christ), 1John 3:6

Unfortunately we disagreed in understanding and it seemed from your lack of response to my questions, that you were not able to clarify your contradictions when using those misleading modern versions of the Bible in reference to the scriptures I used above.

Barny · Feb 8, 2013

B-A-C said:
Huh??? First there is no Gal 2:24, but I suspect you meant 4:24.

Thanks for the correction. I did mean Gal 4:24.

B-A-C said:
Gal 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

This is talking about the saved ad unsaved. The person in 1 Cor 5 was obviously a believer..

Correct, it speaks of the saved and unsaved in Gal 4:24.
And 1Cor 5 is speaking of those in spiritual fornication (thus unsaved) with Hagar/the law.
Note 1Cor 5:11 that Christians are not to keep company with anyone that is "called a brother" who is a "fornicator".

B-A-C said:
While it's true it doesn't having bearing upon our salvation, it's something we are told not to do, and also Jesus said if we love him, we will keep his commandments.

This is where I'm lost as to what you believe.
You say we're saved by grace and forgiven 7 trillion x 7 trillion times, as the wrong we do has no bearing upon our salvation, but then your contradict this by saying God has limits to forgiveness. And then you add to this contradiction by quoting from ambiguous modern versions of the Bible stating that if we behave badly so often that it's deemed "habitual", "practicing" sin, then we've never seen nor known Christ and we're of the devil, 1john 3:6,8.
Can you still not see the contradictions in your claims?

B-A-C · Feb 8, 2013

Barny said:
Thanks for the correction. I did mean Gal 4:24.

Correct, it speaks of the saved and unsaved in Gal 4:24.
And 1Cor 5 is speaking of those in spiritual fornication (thus unsaved) with Hagar/the law.
Note 1Cor 5:11 that Christians are not to keep company with anyone that is "called a brother" who is a "fornicator".

This is where I'm lost as to what you believe.
You say we're saved by grace and forgiven 7 trillion x 7 trillion times, as the wrong we do has no bearing upon our salvation, but then your contradict this by saying God has limits to forgiveness. And then you add to this contradiction by quoting from ambiguous modern versions of the Bible stating that if we behave badly so often that it's deemed "habitual", "practicing" sin, then we've never seen nor known Christ and we're of the devil, 1john 3:6,8.
Can you still not see the contradictions in your claims?

The 7 trillion times 7 trillion was an arbitrary number, if you go back and read the original post, what I said was I don't think there is a limit to his grace.
Now I've shown you the "single" verse in 1 John (one verse is a little different from "consistently") in 5 different Bible versions and the original Greek.
And you say all of those are wrong. So ok, which version do you use? Lets put that verse in context in your version and see what it really says.

Do you deny Jesus says "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

Barny · Feb 9, 2013

B-A-C said:
The 7 trillion times 7 trillion was an arbitrary number, if you go back and read the original post, what I said was I don't think there is a limit to his grace.

I have no problems with this and believe likewise.

What I'm questioning is the obvious contradiction that comes from your reading of scriptures of your preferred modern versions of the Bible.

The modern versions of the Bible contradict the gospel of grace, and God's forgiveness.

The misleading modern Bible versions state that if you offend so often that its deemed "habitual", "practicing" sin, then such persons have not seen Christ, nor known him, and are of the devil, 1John 3:6,8.
This is a clear and obvious contradiction to the gospel of grace. It is this that I have been asking if you could clarify how you justify following such a contradiction?

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