What does Jesus mean when he says

[B-A-C]

I have no problems with this and believe likewise.

What I'm questioning is the obvious contradiction that comes from your reading of scriptures of your preferred modern versions of the Bible.

The modern versions of the Bible contradict the gospel of grace, and God's forgiveness.

The misleading modern Bible versions state that if you offend so often that its deemed "habitual", "practicing" sin, then such persons have not seen Christ, nor known him, and are of the devil, 1John 3:6,8.
This is a clear and obvious contradiction to the gospel of grace. It is this that I have been asking if you could clarify how you justify following such a contradiction?

Since you didn't tell me which version of the Bible to use, I'll just go with KJV, written in 1611. Hopefully that isn't too modern for you.

1 Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
How do we purify ourselvses?
(NLT)1Jn 3:3 And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as He is pure.
(MSG)1Jn 3:3 All of us who look forward to his Coming stay ready, with the glistening purity of Jesus' life as a model for our own.

1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This verse is in contrast to the verse above. Verse 3 basically says "act like Jesus".
Verse 4 says if you don't act like Jesus you are sinning.

1 Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
We seem to agree Jesus didn't sin.

1 Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
It does not say here, CAN not sin, it says DOES not sin. If we take this literally, it means if you ever sin even one time you aren't a Christian.
However this isn't a standalone verse. It is another contrast verse. It is contrasted against verse 7 below (which you conveniently left out)

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that DOES righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. Notice it doesn't say "he that CAN do righteousness". This is in opposition to verse 6 above.

1 Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Notice it doesn't say "he that commits A sin". The word sin is also used as a plural word. As in "living in sin" which means the same thing as "living in sins" except the second sentence is improper English. This is yet another contrast verse, contrasting verse 9 below.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Again we see "doth not" or "does not" commit sin. (Not "can not") Again we see it doesn't say "commits A sin", it says "commit sin" as in multiple sins.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is how we know if someone is a Christian or not. By their fruit and what they practice.

No contradiction here. Even with King James.

You still haven't answered my other question.
What does John 14:15 and John 14:21 say in your Bible?
Even though following the commandments isn't what saves us, does God/Jesus want us to try and follow them?

Another thing to keep in mind, when the Bible is talking about "a sin" as in a singular sin, it precedes it with the word "a".
1 Jn 5:17; 1 Jn 5:17

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Christ4Ever,

In a way you are correct, I am saying that man's physical behavior is negated. And what I mean by that is that it's negated in terms that our righteousness is not determined by it. God's example through the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord", confirms that our behavior is negated. Hence why scripture consistently confirms that in Christ we "cannot sin".

1Pet 4:3 you refer to is speaking in spiritual context, as Cor 2:14-16 shows.
If it spoke in physical terms then, for example, "excess of wine" and "banqueting" (both of which are not listed in the 10 commandments) would suggest that those guilty of such are unsaved.
Such views are clearly not based on salvation by grace, as God demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Even the Corinthians you referred to is speaking in spiritual terms. The fornication with the father's wife in 1Cor 5 speaks of spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 2:24.

Regarding wrong physical behavior, Christians will not profit by doing it. But it has no bearing upon our salvation as we're saved by grace.

blessings

First Barny before I get to the point. Galatians 2:24? Typo

I can agree with you to a point. However, I'm not discussing the OSAS but the lack of Christian conduct as ascribed to us and our failure to shore up the uprightness of it when it comes to continued behavioral transgression. Once again Christ does not excuse the sin, but forgives it. When? Upon belief and repentance .

Our use of negate is that it invalidates all what is scripturally called "sin" to the believer. However, it cannot not disprove the falseness of the accorded behavior as being sinful. There are far too many instances where rightful behavior, humility, charity, etc is lauded and so too behavior that is not looked upon as being approved to a new creature in Christ Jesus. (I believe in a way you are saying the same thing.) In neither instances is salvation the question of the day. Behavior be it negative or positive is but a gauge by which a believer can use in not determining salvation, but ones walk in submission to Christ Jesus, and our walk towards final glorification. It should not be used to determine the salvation, entry into the Kingdom of God when we know that saving Grace alone is the only determining factor.


What has happened to many is they have forgotten that we are meant to be a light unto the world. How can we be that light, when we by our own behavior do not reflect the love of Christ? It's not the individual actions, such as drunkenness, or homosexuality, or lying, thieving, murdering in themselves which are disobedient actions in themselves, rather what these actions reflect. What does this reflect you may ask? (Maybe not. I'll answer it anyway. What it reflects is a lack of love not only of God, but towards each other. We know that according to His Word that God does not approve of said behavior. How do we overcome this? Living and walking in the spirit. That is why we must make the love of Christ an integral part of our lives as believers and by reflecting this love, our behavior will follow as we obey the Lord's commandment to us.

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So Barny. Regardless of the purity of or the lack thereof in our actions, if we do not love, how can you or I in truth say we're believers? The only way possible for this to be is if we tell ourselves that these actions are somehow loving in nature, when according to scripture they are not, or have no standing, when surely they do.

Sadly many do believe this "my behavior is of no account in the long run because I'm saved!" comport themselves as the world does without regard to the loving individuals we are told to be. Believers who should be calling them on these things or guiding them, or cutting them off. Sadly, maintain their silence, and fail to use what is available to them not only in Scripture, but by the prompting of the Holy Spirit to clarify the need to leave the sinful nature of man behind them and to be Holy as He is Holy which is a must. Therein is why we study that we might be approved of God (2 Timothy 2:15). We are in that constant process of growth that His word provides the fuel so to speak, that the renewal of our previously carnal driven mind to the spiritual one may continue to manifest (physically) itself in our lives. I truly believe that this process will not be completed until final glorification of the believer on that day.
Love you brother.
C4E

Luke 17:3-4 [3] Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. [4] And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 [3] For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: [4] That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

 

[Barny]

Since you didn't tell me which version of the Bible to use, I'll just go with KJV, written in 1611. Hopefully that isn't too modern for you.
1 Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
How do we purify ourselvses?
(NLT)1Jn 3:3 And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as He is pure.
(MSG)1Jn 3:3 All of us who look forward to his Coming stay ready, with the glistening purity of Jesus' life as a model for our own.

1 Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This verse is in contrast to the verse above. Verse 3 basically says "act like Jesus".
Verse 4 says if you don't act like Jesus you are sinning.

1 Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
We seem to agree Jesus didn't sin.

1 Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
It does not say here, CAN not sin, it says DOES not sin. If we take this literally, it means if you ever sin even one time you aren't a Christian.
However this isn't a standalone verse. It is another contrast verse. It is contrasted against verse 7 below (which you conveniently left out)

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that DOES righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. Notice it doesn't say "he that CAN do righteousness". This is in opposition to verse 6 above.

1 Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Notice it doesn't say "he that commits A sin". The word sin is also used as a plural word. As in "living in sin" which means the same thing as "living in sins" except the second sentence is improper English. This is yet another contrast verse, contrasting verse 9 below.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Again we see "doth not" or "does not" commit sin. (Not "can not") Again we see it doesn't say "commits A sin", it says "commit sin" as in multiple sins.

Hi B-A-C,

I disagree with your rendering of the KJV on 1John 3:3-10 to attempt to make it fit modern Bible translations. But debating this only distracts from the fact that the misleading modern versions of the Bible clearly contradict the gospel of grace.

With all respect, I continue to ask you to please explain this clear contradiction. Your continued silence on this contradiction only discredits your argument.

You claim that God's forgiveness has no limits. This I agree with, as our righteousness is by faith and not by works.
But then you contradict this by using misleading modern Bible versions which clearly claim that if you mess up so often that it's deemed to be "habitual", "practicing", wrong behavior, then you have not seen Christ, nor known him, and your of the devil, 1John 3:6,8. This is not the gospel of grace.

Can you please explain how you reconcile this obvious contradiction?

If God's forgiveness has no limits then how does "habitual" wrong doing exceed His forgiveness?

What extent of disobedience determines that someone has exceeded God's forgiveness and is a lost soul intent on "habitual" wrongdoing?

Would not 7 trillion x 7 trillion wrong doings be classed as "habitual"?

How did the thief on the cross get away with continual wrong doing till the day he died, and yet be saved, whilst the likes of us have to be wary in case we slip up once too often and become "habitual" wrong doers and thus unsaved?

Is not God unjust under the doctrine you propose when the thief on the cross is saved without any consideration of his liefstyle/behavior whilst the rest of us have to not only believe in Jesus but also behave to a reasonable, and unkown, minimum standard, so that we're not judged as "habitual" sinners?

These are all contradictions that your message has to the gospel of grace.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is how we know if someone is a Christian or not. By their fruit and what they practice.

How do we do righteousness?
It's either:
1: Keeping the law of righteousness (aka, law of sin and death) perfectly, James 2:10.
OR
2: Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

There is no halfway or minimum standard of righteousness mentioned in the Bible.

And what is our fruit that determines who is a Christian?
It's Christ the firstfruit.
1Cor 15:20
"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."
And it's Christ our firstfruit that makes us holy.
Rom 11:16
"For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy;"
The thief on the cross had Christ the firstfruit which is how we know that he was a Christian. It clearly had nothing to do with any minimum standard of so called "righteous" lifestyle/behavior.

You still haven't answered my other question.
What does John 14:15 and John 14:21 say in your Bible?
Even though following the commandments isn't what saves us, does God/Jesus want us to try and follow them?

And his commandments are:
1John 3:22,23
"we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Jesus preached the gospel with his commandment that whosoever should believe in him will have everlasting life.

And his other commandment he gave is:
John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12
This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

 

[Barny]

First Barny before I get to the point. Galatians 2:24? Typo
I can agree with you to a point. However, I'm not discussing the OSAS but the lack of Christian conduct as ascribed to us and our failure to shore up the uprightness of it when it comes to continued behavioral transgression. Once again Christ does not excuse the sin, but forgives it. When? Upon belief and repentance .
Our use of negate is that it invalidates all what is scripturally called "sin" to the believer. However, it cannot not disprove the falseness of the accorded behavior as being sinful. There are far too many instances where rightful behavior, humility, charity, etc is lauded and so too behavior that is not looked upon as being approved to a new creature in Christ Jesus. (I believe in a way you are saying the same thing.) In neither instances is salvation the question of the day. Behavior be it negative or positive is but a gauge by which a believer can use in not determining salvation, but ones walk in submission to Christ Jesus, and our walk towards final glorification. It should not be used to determine the salvation, entry into the Kingdom of God when we know that saving Grace alone is the only determining factor.
What has happened to many is they have forgotten that we are meant to be a light unto the world. How can we be that light, when we by our own behavior do not reflect the love of Christ? It's not the individual actions, such as drunkenness, or homosexuality, or lying, thieving, murdering in themselves which are disobedient actions in themselves, rather what these actions reflect. What does this reflect you may ask? (Maybe not. I'll answer it anyway. What it reflects is a lack of love not only of God, but towards each other. We know that according to His Word that God does not approve of said behavior. How do we overcome this? Living and walking in the spirit. That is why we must make the love of Christ an integral part of our lives as believers and by reflecting this love, our behavior will follow as we obey the Lord's commandment to us.

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So Barny. Regardless of the purity of or the lack thereof in our actions, if we do not love, how can you or I in truth say we're believers? The only way possible for this to be is if we tell ourselves that these actions are somehow loving in nature, when according to scripture they are not, or have no standing, when surely they do.

Sadly many do believe this "my behavior is of no account in the long run because I'm saved!" comport themselves as the world does without regard to the loving individuals we are told to be. Believers who should be calling them on these things or guiding them, or cutting them off. Sadly, maintain their silence, and fail to use what is available to them not only in Scripture, but by the prompting of the Holy Spirit to clarify the need to leave the sinful nature of man behind them and to be Holy as He is Holy which is a must. Therein is why we study that we might be approved of God (2 Timothy 2:15). We are in that constant process of growth that His word provides the fuel so to speak, that the renewal of our previously carnal driven mind to the spiritual one may continue to manifest (physically) itself in our lives. I truly believe that this process will not be completed until final glorification of the believer on that day.
Love you brother.
C4E

Luke 17:3-4 [3] Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. [4] And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 [3] For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: [4] That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

Hi Christ4Ever,

As you correctly pointed out, Christians will be at different stages of growth. Hence we are going to see varying levels of love and behavior from them all. And what should also be said here is that love forgives 7x70.
We live in an imperfect physical world with all it's various frustrations, losses, temptations, distortions and damage, etc. But as we grow our trust in God brings us to a point where we can say the same as Phil 4:12,13
"I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Anyway, knowing the fact that we're all going to be a different stages of growth with each facing our own unique circumstances and handicaps, etc, in this imperfect life, who are we to judge, based on anothers lifestyle/behavior, whether another is loving enough to be considered a Christian?

I'd say the only determining factor might be if someone, professing to be a Christian, is refusing to forgive another who did them wrong and judges that guilty person as unsaved based on their wrong behavior. Jesus said that if we do not forgive then neither will we be forgiven.

Unfortunately this is commonly found amongst professing Christians. They judge righteousness by obedience to the law, and thus turn back to the law making themselves transgressors/sinner, Gal 2:18. Such people are in spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
This is the fornication that 1Thess 4:3-5 warns us to abstain from.
For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of youshould know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

We possess our vessel in sanctification and honour by continuing to believe in Jesus, as his one offering sanctified us (Heb 10:10)..

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello my brother in Christ Jesus!

Hi Christ4Ever,

As you correctly pointed out, Christians will be at different stages of growth. Hence we are going to see varying levels of love and behavior from them all. And what should also be said here is that love forgives 7x70.
We live in an imperfect physical world with all it's various frustrations, losses, temptations, distortions and damage, etc. But as we grow our trust in God brings us to a point where we can say the same as Phil 4:12,13
"I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.I can do all things through Christwho strengthens me.

Anyway, knowing the fact that we're all going to be a different stages of growth with each facing our own unique circumstances and handicaps, etc, in this imperfect life, who are we to judge, based on anothers lifestyle/behavior, whether another is loving enough to be considered a Christian?

As believers in Christ Jesus, adhering to scriptural truth is a must. If we are called to judge individual behavior "rightly" it's not about the person being "considered a Christian" or not. It's about adhering to a behavior that is acceptable to God, which is part of the growth process that we are undergoing and which we are assisting each other with. Growth is not only stimulated by the internal, but also the external encouragement provided by brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus we fellowship with. Correction is part of this assistance as well. If you can't accept correction from brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus who have the same Holy Spirit that you have, who can you receive it from? Remember, the Apostles corrected each other as well, yet did so in love. I do believe we have the same ability to do so as well, because as you say (My favorite verse by the way.) Phil 4:13.

I'd say the only determining factor might be if someone, professing to be a Christian, is refusing to forgive another who did them wrong and judges that guilty person as unsaved based on their wrong behavior. Jesus said that if we do not forgive then neither will we be forgiven.

Actually in accepting your premise, even this could be considered wrong. How can one forgive someone if they've done nothing wrong and have broken no law?

You know that in love there is a distinction between acceptance of wrongful behavior and condoning of it. I can accept that a person is sinning yet allowing for the opportunity to change. While, condoning the behavior as being acceptable will elicit no change and in turn is detrimental to the individual growth of the person. While the former allows for providing understanding and loving guidance. Where is the love in the latter?

Unfortunately this is commonly found amongst professing Christians. They judge righteousness by obedience to the law, and thus turn back to the law making themselves transgressors/sinner, Gal 2:18. Such people are in spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24.
This is the fornication that 1Thess 4:3-5 warns us to abstain from.
For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of youshould know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

We possess our vessel in sanctification and honour by continuing to believe in Jesus, as his one offering sanctified us (Heb 10:10)..

Keep in mind when Christ Jesus talked to the Pharisees about being spiritually filthy He did not condemn keeping the "outside clean" (physical man) in Matthew 23:25-26, Luke 11:39, but drew attention to their neglect of being spiritually clean so that the outside would follow. That is why we can see from the outside behavior of a believer that the inside is having issues as well!

I see the difficulty you have. You believe (I might be wrong here.) if somehow you were to determine behavior as being anything but a spiritual reference within scripture, it would then require the believer to become attached to the law along with the condemnation that is required by ones failure to completely adhere to all its precepts. This might be true of the unbeliever, but is not the case for the believer! We know and accept that the law has no component for saving grace in it. That is what separates the believer and the unbeliever when it comes to the law. Know that it's the condemnation part of the law, we are relieved from through Christ Jesus, and which the unbeliever is still bound by regardless of how much they try to adhere to it.

One cannot forget that Christ Jesus was interested not only in one part of us, but the whole man which is both physical & spiritual.

Love you brother.
C4E

 

[Barny]

If we are called to judge individual behavior "rightly" it's not about the person being "considered a Christian" or not. It's about adhering to a behavior that is acceptable to God,

Hi Christ4Ever,

I certainly agree with behavior acceptable to God. This behavior is to love one another, as Jesus commanded.

You say we "are called to judge individual behavior "rightly"".
I suspect you may be thinking of scriptures that more often than not, speak in spiritual terms.
For example. you quoted in an earlier post 1Thess 4:3
"For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you see this fornication in physical terms.

But I understand this fornication being spiritual, that is fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24. And this is what 1Cor 5 speaks about with someone having his father's (Satan) wife (Hagar/the law).

I see the difficulty you have. You believe (I might be wrong here.) if somehow you were to determine behavior as being anything but a spiritual reference within scripture, it would then require the believer to become attached to the law along with the condemnation that is required by ones failure to completely adhere to all its precepts. This might be true of the unbeliever, but is not the case for the believer! We know and accept that the law has no component for saving grace in it. That is what separates the believer and the unbeliever when it comes to the law. Know that it's the condemnation part of the law, we are relieved from through Christ Jesus, and which the unbeliever is still bound by regardless of how much they try to adhere to it.

Whilst the belief amongst Christians is that the law is not part of our salvation, there are still many who mix works of the law with grace, for salvation. You cannot mix these two, Rom 11:6

Gal 5:9 warns us:
"A little leaven, leavens the whole lump"

Leaven speaks of the doctrine of works of the law, as Jesus described in Matt 16:12
Many scriptures warn us against being under the law. Even a little of the law can leaven the Christian.

We've all no doubt seen the condemning "Christian" who regularly declares that another is lost based on behavior. Such condemning "Christians" are those leavened by a little bit of leaven (doctrine of works of the law). This is reality now as it was amongst the early church too (Gal 3:3, James 4:12). Such are unbelievers, as you described. But it is a major issue of concern as so many scriptures warn against being under the law.

The law of righteousness (aka, law of sin and death) is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
"We know the law is good, IF a man use it lawfully", 1Tim 1:8
The law requires perfect obedience. It required the death penalty, even just for one transgression. James 2:10
And the law is also described as the ministry of death/condemnation, 2Cor 3:7
But, under the law none of us ever had a chance to be justified by our works. Under the law all the world is found guilty, Rom 3:19,20. Why would we still want to be under it?

Scripture tells us that we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, Rom 10:4, Rom 6:14.
Note it does not say we're still under the law but not under it's penalty.

Jesus said "go and sin no more".
And as Christians abide in Christ, righteous in him, we are now in that position where we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) "cannot sin" (1John 3:9). Our PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25, and henceforth there is no more sin. "Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33

 

[Lamar]

We must protect ourselves from all sin, even if we fall short at times, it's habitual sin that will be your ultimate doom, grow in Christ and consistently change for the better. Remember that our God knows our heart and our motives.

With that said, I cannot tell you not to sin without giving you the ultimate tools on how not to sin. We must equip ourselves in the Armor of God... the utility belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shoes of evangelism, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, and the sword of Scripture.

With this prayer based on each piece of armor should keep you fully protected 24x7!

"I am ready to take my stand against the powers of darkness. Please help me to stand against the spiritual forces of evil that want to destroy me, my family, and the church."

I buckle the belt of truth around my waist.
Help me be a person of truth and reliability. Please give me the words to say when people ask why I follow Jesus. Help me tell about Jesus’ death and resurrection and his promise of eternal life to those who believe in him. In addition, help me to be truthful in all that I do.

I take the breastplate of righteousness.
Thank you for giving me God’s righteousness. Because I am not perfect, God graciously protects me with His own righteousness because I believe in Jesus Christ.

I stand firmly on feet prepared with the gospel of peace.
Help me to resist temptation and stay away from people, places, and situations that tempt me. Help me live in peace with my family and other believers as much as it depends on me.

I lift up the shield of faith.
Help me to hold up the shield and stop the arrows of doubt, despair, hopelessness and every other arrow of defeat that the enemy shoots at me.

I place upon my head the helmet of salvation.
Help me to know that no matter how tough life is, Jesus has conquered sin, and I live with the assurance that I will one day be with God in heaven.

I use the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
Thank you for giving me your Word, the Good News of Jesus Christ. Help me to tell others about him.

"I will stand guard against the powers of darkness. I will resist temptations and guard myself from vulnerable positions. I will pray persistently for my fellow believers." (Armor of God)

May God Bless you all and stay armored up at all times!!!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello Barny my brother in Christ Jesus!
I so look forward to your replies. Anyone who has me delving into His Word I count a blessing!

Hi Christ4Ever,

I certainly agree with behavior acceptable to God. This behavior is to love one another, as Jesus commanded.

Agreed. So the question then becomes am I loving my brother if I sleep with his wife? Steal from his home? My answer and yours I hope is no! This is the part in which we agree. Do I lose my salvation because of these things? Once again no. Can and should I be forgiven if I were to ask for it? Yes. We're on the same page here right? :thumbs_up

You say we "are called to judge individual behavior "rightly"".
I suspect you may be thinking of scriptures that more often than not, speak in spiritual terms.

Not at all. I was using John 7:24. Where it says righteous judgment, I used rightly. Sorry, for not using the word "righteous". The following is one definition I believe encapsulates exactly what I'm trying to show you: "used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life" Not just spiritual my brother but physical as well. That is why Christ Jesus was the only man capable of being righteous even though others were accorded as being righteous. Being fully man and fully God. Yet the whole man. Not half a man, but man in his entirety. Nothing but the best in Jesus!!!!!

For example. you quoted in an earlier post 1Thess 4:3
"For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you see this fornication in physical terms.

No suspecting about it. Yes. The same word was used by Jesus in Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9; and Acts 15:20 etc., so you might say that yes I do see this as in the physical terms especially when taken along side of 1 Thess 4:4 "That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; " Once again we see the use of vessel in use in Mark 11:16; Luke 8:16; John 19:29; 2 Corinthians 4:7 and the list goes on. That is why I believe it to be physical and not spiritual in this particular instance.

But I understand this fornication being spiritual, that is fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24. And this is what 1Cor 5 speaks about with someone having his father's (Satan) wife (Hagar/the law).



Whilst the belief amongst Christians is that the law is not part of our salvation, there are still many who mix works of the law with grace, for salvation. You cannot mix these two, Rom 11:6

I agree with you that when it comes to salvation, you cannot mix them. However, I'm not talking salvation am I.

Gal 5:9 warns us:
"A little leaven, leavens the whole lump"

Leaven speaks of the doctrine of works of the law, as Jesus described in Matt 16:12
Many scriptures warn us against being under the law. Even a little of the law can leaven the Christian.

You stopped too short!!!!!!!!!!! You should have continued through to the end of the Chapter!!!!! Make the occasional stop while reading through Gal 5:19-26 He rightly (oops) correctly identified both the flesh & spirit!!!!

(A) Identify the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lascviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.

(B) Identify the fruit of the Spirit:
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law!!!!! Exactly right!

Yet if your works reflect items out of "A" and you profess to be a Christian, I'd suggest a serious gut check, and hopefully, there is a brother from "B" who is there to help you. I pray that for someone you might be that brother.

We've all no doubt seen the condemning "Christian" who regularly declares that another is lost based on behavior. Such condemning "Christians" are those leavened by a little bit of leaven (doctrine of works of the law). This is reality now as it was amongst the early church too (Gal 3:3, James 4:12). Such are unbelievers, as you described. But it is a major issue of concern as so many scriptures warn against being under the law.

The law of righteousness (aka, law of sin and death) is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
"We know the law is good, IF a man use it lawfully", 1Tim 1:8
The law requires perfect obedience. It required the death penalty, even just for one transgression. James 2:10
And the law is also described as the ministry of death/condemnation, 2Cor 3:7
But, under the law none of us ever had a chance to be justified by our works. Under the law all the world is found guilty, Rom 3:19,20. Why would we still want to be under it?

Scripture tells us that we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, Rom 10:4, Rom 6:14.
Note it does not say we're still under the law but not under it's penalty.

If I have not explained it in a fashion that you might understand I apologize. I have never said "we're still under the law but not under it's penalty." You've taken it out of context of the whole of what I've previously posted. It would like me saying that you said "a saved person cannot sin so items in the above "A" even though I do them, is okay" You're not saying that are you? That would be taken what you are saying out of context or is that what you're saying? :sweating:

Jesus said "go and sin no more".
And as Christians abide in Christ, righteous in him, we are now in that position where we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) "cannot sin" (1John 3:9). Our PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25, and henceforth there is no more sin. "Who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33

Curious when Peter & Paul and others were taking sides on the issue of Circumcision, was this "laying anything" to the charge of God's elect by other elect?

Love you brother!
C4E

By the by. Do you happen to be into Contemplative Spirituality or maybe as here in stateside some other arena of thought say Emergent Church as well? Just curious.

 

[Barny]

Agreed. So the question then becomes am I loving my brother if I sleep with his wife? Steal from his home? My answer and yours I hope is no! This is the part in which we agree. Do I lose my salvation because of these things? Once again no. Can and should I be forgiven if I were to ask for it? Yes. We're on the same page here right? :thumbs_up.

Hi Christ4Ever,

Yes, we're on the same page here.

No suspecting about it. Yes......
You stopped too short!!!!!!!!!!! You should have continued through to the end of the Chapter!!!!! Make the occasional stop while reading through Gal 5:19-26 He rightly (oops) correctly identified both the flesh & spirit!!!!

(A) Identify the works of the flesh: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lascviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings.

(B) Identify the fruit of the Spirit:
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law!!!!! Exactly right!.

I guess we'll have to disagree here.
Note how those in group A you listed above are dealt with in Gal 5:21
as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If we read such scriptures in physical terms then even the majority of Christians would not inherit the kingdom of God. This would then contradict your statement "So the question then becomes am I loving my brother if I sleep with his wife? Steal from his home? My answer and yours I hope is no!.... Do I lose my salvation because of these things? Once again no."

Note also Rom 8:9, speaking about Christians.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..

Here we see that Christians are not in the flesh as described in group A you listed from Gal 5.
And anyone who is in the flesh is not of Christ, as Rom 8:9 states.

If I have not explained it in a fashion that you might understand I apologize. I have never said "we're still under the law but not under it's penalty." You've taken it out of context of the whole of what I've previously posted. It would like me saying that you said "a saved person cannot sin so items in the above "A" even though I do them, is okay" You're not saying that are you? That would be taken what you are saying out of context or is that what you're saying? :sweating:.

Sorry for misunderstanding you on this. You had said: "it's the condemnation part of the law, we are relieved from through Christ Jesus,"
which is the same argument I have heard often before from others who preach that obedience to the law is required as proof of ones salvation. Due to my prior experience with this view I had mistakenly suspected that you may have similar leanings.

As for Christians doing the things listed in group A, in physical terms, I agree it's not good behavior to do.
But, what I am also saying is that our righteousness is not determined by our behavior in the physical. Our old physical man is crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6. It's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with "sin", Rom 8:33.

When I say Christians "cannot sin" it's quoting from scripture which says exactly this. And what I have attempted to show from scripture is why God says Christians cannot sin. Unfortunately it's often difficult to see past our traditionally held views on sin, to be able to grasp what scripture is actually saying. I know as I struggled with this initially myself, often reading scripture in the only context I knew how, that is with the traditional view that Christians still sin.

Curious when Peter & Paul and others were taking sides on the issue of Circumcision, was this "laying anything" to the charge of God's elect by other elect?

Love you brother!
C4E

By the by. Do you happen to be into Contemplative Spirituality or maybe as here in stateside some other arena of thought say Emergent Church as well? Just curious.

Peter was confronted about not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Note Gal 2:14-18
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

To go back to under the law is to make yourself a transgressor/sinner. This is what Peter was being confronted about. This is what we should be helping each other to resist, establishing our own righteousness by works. If we give in to the flesh and rebuild self-righteousness by works, then we make ourselves a trangsressor/sinner. And in doing this then Satan can bring a charge against us.


Regarding "Contemplative Spirituality" or "Emergent Church", I've never heard of them.
I'm a non-denominational Christian in Australia. I have also come across, on the web, those with very similar understandings on sin, from different countries. Some were non-denominational, one was an AOG pastor in Scotland, etc.

blessings.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hell Barny!
Much to ponder and pray about!

I guess we'll have to disagree here.
Note how those in group A you listed above are dealt with in Gal 5:21
as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Which would mean that they are not truly believers or they aren't sinning which is what you're implying. Yet could they might still be because their sins are covered by the Blood of Christ.

So how do we determine the one who is not a believer against the one who is, but is having a difficult time in their growth? How can those understand that living and walking in the spirit absolves them of the continued battle when, the very concepts they need to comprehend are being warred at in the very posts on this thread?

If we read such scriptures in physical terms then even the majority of Christians would not inherit the kingdom of God. This would then contradict your statement "So the question then becomes am I loving my brother if I sleep with his wife? Steal from his home? My answer and yours I hope is no!.... Do I lose my salvation because of these things? Once again no."

The way I read scripture is that we are not perfect yet We fall, we get up, the gap where we are changing to the creation that has meant us to be is closing. To be completed on the day we are glorified!

Note also Rom 8:9, speaking about Christians.
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..

Yes agreed. What you have to do is go back to Romans 7:25 which is the prelude to Chapter 8. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

We cannot yet completely separate ourselves from the flesh. We are encased in the flesh. Which is at war with the very spirit within us believers. As we see in v25 he does not disregard the sinful flesh, but acknowledges its existence and the superiority of the law of God. Through Christ Jesus his deliverer the victory of the flesh does not hold him down though it is still there. He continues to live and walk in the spirit, and cannot not be brought low though the carnality in the flesh is ever present.

I'll leave it here for the moment. You think I'm getting where you're coming from don't you?

Here we see that Christians are not in the flesh as described in group A you listed from Gal 5.
And anyone who is in the flesh is not of Christ, as Rom 8:9 states.



Sorry for misunderstanding you on this. You had said: "it's the condemnation part of the law, we are relieved from through Christ Jesus,"
which is the same argument I have heard often before from others who preach that obedience to the law is required as proof of ones salvation. Due to my prior experience with this view I had mistakenly suspected that you may have similar leanings.

Thanks for seeing the difference, even though you might not agree with it :thumbs_up

As for Christians doing the things listed in group A, in physical terms, I agree it's not good behavior to do.
But, what I am also saying is that our righteousness is not determined by our behavior in the physical. Our old physical man is crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6. It's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with "sin", Rom 8:33.

Agreed. For then we'd be under the law again. :handshake:

When I say Christians "cannot sin" it's quoting from scripture which says exactly this. And what I have attempted to show from scripture is why God says Christians cannot sin. Unfortunately it's often difficult to see past our traditionally held views on sin, to be able to grasp what scripture is actually saying. I know as I struggled with this initially myself, often reading scripture in the only context I knew how, that is with the traditional view that Christians still sin.

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem becomes the inability to define the behavior of the flesh vessel as sin, yet separating it from the spirit which is the eternal believer. Maybe understanding that the sin of the flesh will reside in the dirt upon the physical death, while the through Christ Jesus, the righteous unpolluted spirit continues on to be with the Lord. Yes/No?

Peter was confronted about not walking according to the truth of the gospel. Note Gal 2:14-18
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

To go back to under the law is to make yourself a transgressor/sinner. This is what Peter was being confronted about. This is what we should be helping each other to resist, establishing our own righteousness by works. If we give in to the flesh and rebuild self-righteousness by works, then we make ourselves a trangsressor/sinner. And in doing this then Satan can bring a charge against us.

Then why was the specified items in Acts placed only on the gentiles and not the Jews as well? ( I understand he did identify the failure of the Jew to comply.) Also the burden was identified as "things" which also equates to the physical as well. Acts 15:29 " That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

This is another reason why I see it as both physical and spiritual depending on the circumstances when used in scripture. The first 3 items mentioned are clearly physical, especially when you consider the initial discussion was concerning circumcision and the 4th one has to be physical as well to be consistent with the entire issue at hand, which the Apostles and Holy Ghost were dealing with and agreed upon together. (Acts 15:28)

Keeping in with the previous conversation, is it possible that certain acts of the flesh or discussing it in the physical terms allows that the actions described might better communicate conditions which make it less and not more difficult for the believer to live and walk in the spirit if seen properly?

I was pretty much done with the night before, but have to pray about it. How much of this will be left by the time I post it, will be interesting.........A.M. Pretty much all of it stayed
Love you brother.
YBIC
C4E

 

[Barny]

Which would mean that they are not truly believers or they aren't sinning which is what you're implying. Yet could they might still be because their sins are covered by the Blood of Christ.

Hi Christ4Ever.

Those in the flesh, as described in Gal 5:19-21, are unbelievers. The fact that they "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" confirms this. And Rom 8:9 also confirms that believers are not in the flesh.
So I do not see Gal 5:19-21 referring in any way to Christians doing wrong in the physical. This verse is speaking only about spiritual. And it refers to non-believers.

So how do we determine the one who is not a believer against the one who is, but is having a difficult time in their growth? How can those understand that living and walking in the spirit absolves them of the continued battle when, the very concepts they need to comprehend are being warred at in the very posts on this thread?

A believer believes in Jesus. Their faith is counted for righteousness.
And a believer will not be perfect in the physical. But the physical is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10, anyway.

As for the battle within, that is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit.
When we believe in Jesus, the Spirit rules.
Should someone turn back to works of the law for righteousness, then the flesh has taken control. Such are unbelievers.

The way I read scripture is that we are not perfect yet We fall, we get up, the gap where we are changing to the creation that has meant us to be is closing. To be completed on the day we are glorified!

I agree the physical is not perfect. But remember it's dead anyway, Rom 8:10.

BUT, we have been perfectedby Christ's one offering, Heb 10:14. When we believe in Jesus, continuing therein, we are perfect in Christ. Remember it's no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20. When God sees Christians, He sees Christ in us.

Yes agreed. What you have to do is go back to Romans 7:25 which is the prelude to Chapter 8. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

We cannot yet completely separate ourselves from the flesh. We are encased in the flesh. Which is at war with the very spirit within us believers. As we see in v25 he does not disregard the sinful flesh, but acknowledges its existence and the superiority of the law of God. Through Christ Jesus his deliverer the victory of the flesh does not hold him down though it is still there. He continues to live and walk in the spirit, and cannot not be brought low though the carnality in the flesh is ever present.

I'll leave it here for the moment. You think I'm getting where you're coming from don't you?

Sorry, but I don't think your understanding me.
Rom 7:25 the "mind" speaks of the Spirit (Eph 4:23)
So when we believe in Jesus, the Spirit rules in us.

BUT, for unbelievers, the flesh rules and they serve the law of sin.

Our battle is not over though. The flesh will try to regain control, if we allow it. This is why we see so many warnings in scripture to not turn back to works of the law for righteousness. This is what the flesh seeks, as it will not submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3.
Anyone in the flesh is an unbeliever, seeking to establish their own righteousness.

I can see where you're coming from, but the problem becomes the inability to define the behavior of the flesh vessel as sin, yet separating it from the spirit which is the eternal believer. Maybe understanding that the sin of the flesh will reside in the dirt upon the physical death, while the through Christ Jesus, the righteous unpolluted spirit continues on to be with the Lord. Yes/No?

I guess if you wanted to, you can say it's the "flesh vessel" that sins. And in effect that is what Rom 8:10 implies by saying that the "body is dead because of sin".
But since the body is DEAD (by faith) and we're a new creation in Christ, why continue to focus on that imperfect DEAD body?
Who do we see ourselves as?
Do we continue to judge righteousness by our imperfect physical (DEAD, by faith) body?
OR do we continue to believe in Jesus, knowing that our faith is counted for righteousness, and we're a new creation.

2Cor 5:16-17
"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Then why was the specified items in Acts placed only on the gentiles and not the Jews as well? ( I understand he did identify the failure of the Jew to comply.) Also the burden was identified as "things" which also equates to the physical as well. Acts 15:29 " That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

The physical Jew is actually a gentile, Rom 2:28.
Christians are the true Jews, Rom 2:29

Note 1Cor 10:18-21 on how it describes the physical Jew. They are described as Gentiles sacrificing to demons.
Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles (physical Jews) sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.

I hope this explains why Acts 15:29 warns "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication:.

And remember fornication is referring to spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law. 1Thess 4:3 confirms the same warning as Acts 15:29
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

But, leaving the spirtual message from scripture and addressing your concern about physical lifestyle/behavior, I'll add that nobody is going to profit by doing wrong in the physical. King David thought he could get away with his adultery and murder, but God dsiciplined him.

Blessings.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Hey Barny. I do not think BAC is saying that we must attain a minimum standard of behaviour to prove anything. The standard has already been set..."be ye perfect". Anything less than that is insufficient. That said, nor do we have to 'prove' our worthiness. Jesus has made us worthy, the Father has declared us worthy, what can we add to that? And that is the key to our perfection. As we place ourselves in His care and under His Lordship, God sees in us His Son. The fruit of God's declaration and our surrender is our sanctification. As we grow in Him, we keep no secrets, and as a flower bud at all stages of its growth is perfect, so long as it is growing and not dying, it is perfect. So also are we. So long as we are in Christ, we are perfect.
The thief, as you rightly said, did not have any opportunity to grow and be sanctified. Nevertheless, grow he will when he is received up into glory at the second coming. As we all will continue to grow throughout all eternity. The thief , at the time of his death, was living up to what light he had regarding the gospel of salvation, so also must we live fully up to what light we receive.

Keep in mind here that the thief was made righteous the instant he accepted (believed) on JESUS. The very instant Jesus told him he would be with HIM in the kingdom the man was perfect. Totally without blot or stain of sin. He was washed clean of all wrong doing. He was truely born again. As you say, he was made worthy, he was made the righteousness of GOD. Just as if he had never sinned.

 

[B-A-C]

Keep in mind here that the thief was made righteous the instant he accepted (believed) on JESUS. The very instant Jesus told him he would be with HIM in the kingdom the man was perfect. Totally without blot or stain of sin. He was washed clean of all wrong doing. He was truely born again. As you say, he was made worthy, he was made the righteousness of GOD. Just as if he had never sinned.

I agree, but even in these few short moments, he demonstrated his faith and confessed Christ before men.

Luke 23:40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luke 23:41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"

I'm sure the other thief heard the third sentence if he heard the first two sentences. Possibly the centurion at the foot of the cross and others heard as well.
Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

[AbbysAunt]

Galatians4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

When Jesus Christ took upon Himself the sin of us all and choose to take the punishment for us and literally take our place on that cross He did so willingly...He who was born under the law came to fullfill the law so that we might be free. That means that now Jesus Himself is the law...so, then when we become saved and the Holy Spirit dwells within us we are now obeying Him who is the law. When we obey Him we are obeying the ten commandments and are obeying the new commandment to love one another as He Himself has loved us. Being saved we our righteousness if found in Him and we desire to please Him and live a life that is pleasing to Him. The law is now written in our hearts and minds and we want to obey Him we don't want to go back from that which we came.

Hebrews8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Irael after those days,says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My People.None of them shall his neighbor and none his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Jesus didn't throw away the law He became and fullfilled the law that whosoever believes and accepts Him as Lord and Savior of their lives is infact by obeying Him and living their lives to the best that they can with His help obeying the law because He is the law. The law or ten commandments that were written on stone tablets are now according to the verse in hebrews as heirs of God written on our hearts and minds and He is our God and we are His people. Because of this when we adhere to the voice of our Lord and obey what He tells us we are obeying the laws set before us. It goes on to tell us that He will no more see our unrighteousness or sins. We are forgiven and now have His righteousness which becomes ours. The laws are still there and we do obey them but through Jesus our Lord who infact fullfilled and became the law. We are have no righteousness without Him but with and through Him that is where our righteousness comes from. We are not perfect but He is and now we have through Him the help we need to obey those laws that He fullfilled and became.

AA

 

[papajim]

I have read many of the posts and it seems to be the topic of many threads. It seems to me that the power of the gospel is being sold short and I mean no disrespect to anyone here as I esteem everone here better than myself (for I know what my short commings are). Sin has to be called by it's rightful name "SIN" an act of the flesh sin is an act of sinful flesh not to be confused with being in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. If you are in Christ and Christ is in you you cannot sin it is not possible to commit an act of sin by thought or by action. For us to commit sin we must first seperate from Christ to be in the flesh, or seperate from the flesh to be in Christ, the flesh and the Spirit cannot coexist together, one has to die so the other can live. The law or ten commandments tells us when that seperation has taken place. The law proclaims a rupture in the relationship, but has absolutely no power to save anyone with the exception of making us realize that we are sinners in need of a saviour. Sin is the sting of death once stung we are destined to die. Jesus took that death upon Himself and crucified it so that we have life in Him. The only way we have life is to completely 100% seperate us from that which will kill us. Sin. Jesus did this for us so that in Him we can live perfect righteous lives overcoming all iniquity. When Jesus said go and sin no more it was not only a command but also a promise, Jesus would not ask us to do something that could not possibly be done. This is where the true power of faith comes in.

When we try and keep the law we are trying to earn our salvation through an impossiblity we are made of sinful flesh and sinful flesh cannot keep the law of God for the law is Holy. To keep the law which is holy we must connect to that which is holy, Christ. Through this process of connecting to Christ the flesh automatically dies, (true it is a life long process) it is crucified in Christ which means it does no longer live to commit sin unless first a seperation from Christ takes place. When we are in Christ we become partakers of the divine nature where there is no sin at all. To sin is an act of the flesh and should be called nothing else but an act of the flesh. The true meaning of forgiveness is to seperate us from all of our sins literally as Jesus died for us literally. For the gospel to mean anything less is to have a form a godliness but to deny the power thereof. Righteousness in the true sense of the word comes by faith all else is sin!

All that I have studied in the bible points to this magnificent truth. It is in Jesus that we find rest, from what? from all unrighteousness and there we will find peace.

 

[eldon]

I have read many of the posts and it seems to be the topic of many threads. It seems to me that the power of the gospel is being sold short and I mean no disrespect to anyone here as I esteem everone here better than myself (for I know what my short commings are). Sin has to be called by it's rightful name "SIN" an act of the flesh sin is an act of sinful flesh not to be confused with being in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. If you are in Christ and Christ is in you you cannot sin it is not possible to commit an act of sin by thought or by action. For us to commit sin we must first seperate from Christ to be in the flesh, or seperate from the flesh to be in Christ, the flesh and the Spirit cannot coexist together, one has to die so the other can live. The law or ten commandments tells us when that seperation has taken place. The law proclaims a rupture in the relationship, but has absolutely no power to save anyone with the exception of making us realize that we are sinners in need of a saviour. Sin is the sting of death once stung we are destined to die. Jesus took that death upon Himself and crucified it so that we have life in Him. The only way we have life is to completely 100% seperate us from that which will kill us. Sin. Jesus did this for us so that in Him we can live perfect righteous lives overcoming all iniquity. When Jesus said go and sin no more it was not only a command but also a promise, Jesus would not ask us to do something that could not possibly be done. This is where the true power of faith comes in.

When we try and keep the law we are trying to earn our salvation through an impossiblity we are made of sinful flesh and sinful flesh cannot keep the law of God for the law is Holy. To keep the law which is holy we must connect to that which is holy, Christ. Through this process of connecting to Christ the flesh automatically dies, (true it is a life long process) it is crucified in Christ which means it does no longer live to commit sin unless first a seperation from Christ takes place. When we are in Christ we become partakers of the divine nature where there is no sin at all. To sin is an act of the flesh and should be called nothing else but an act of the flesh. The true meaning of forgiveness is to seperate us from all of our sins literally as Jesus died for us literally. For the gospel to mean anything less is to have a form a godliness but to deny the power thereof. Righteousness in the true sense of the word comes by faith all else is sin!

All that I have studied in the bible points to this magnificent truth. It is in Jesus that we find rest, from what? from all unrighteousness and there we will find peace.

I disagree with some of this a bit.

First off, if I am not a righteous man, Jesus will tell me that! in fact we have very frank conversation sometimes about this manner of thing.
For me, most of my sin, is actually literally deliberate sin spoken of in Hebrews 10:26. Jesus then has to intercede to the Father for my rebellion.
two sundays ago i did not take communion, and that was sin!

now where this gets interesting is i was discussing Righteousness with my Bible study group 2 weeks ago, and i have been having issues with being a slave to the law and righteousness. so i mentioned to them that i felt like i have to die a righteous man, and Jesus later said to me " i liberated you from that"
so, i am saved by grace, but my righteousness is by the law.
and with the fact that the Kingdom is here now, and in us, the Law is also the words we say.
so i have to keep my own word, and that in and of itself is a form of the Law, but it is a matter of my righteousness, not my salvation.
does that make sense.

so when i am a righteous man, Jesus will answer my prayers and give me immediate confirmation. if i am not, it might take time, i might not get a direct answer.
for me, i take those Bible verses that refer to covering sins with righteous deeds, love, charity, etc, literally. and it seems that the things God asks me to do are in direct harmony with what i've done, the rest, is my free will to be used of God, and His free will to use me. blown like the wind, literally.

so at this present time, Jesus is not asking me to do anything for Him, and i'm not asking Him what to do, he's already given me direction (and i'm "only partly screwed" for not immediately following the path shown).
if i sin, i might get some things to do, to cover those sins. [in addition to asking Jesus to forgive me]

so, all i can say is if i want to inject my free will into the kingdom of heaven (which is something we have to be careful about doing) i have to be a righteous man for God to even hear my prayers.

 

[eldon]

the thief on the Cross has hundreds of things to teach us, consider that he already recieved the just penalty (as defined by society) for his earthly sin!
Thus his faith in Christ saved him on faith alone, Christ did not require him to do anything for salvation, because mankind declared his earthly judgement, and ultimately the penalty of sin is death, not works until you die of natural causes.

but for those who know Christ, we all have the same choice for our faith in Christ to save us from the sting of death!
don't want to die a slow death in a FEMA camp? or be tested for 10 days (Revelation 2:10) tell God that and he might give you revelation on what will happen, or he will change your path.
but all men must die, save those who are translated in a pre-wrath or pre-tribulation rapture.

for a few, you may litterally hear the words "Come home" or "your works are complete" and this would be beautiful

 

[B-A-C]

This all comes back to your view of salvation vs sanctification.

I think everyone here would say "I'm saved". I'm as saved as I can get. What else do I have to do to be saved? The answer of course is... "nothing".
So if I'm already going to heaven, what's the point of doing anything else?

Some people believe that once you get saved, you are as perfect as you will ever be. They believe you are completely sinless for the rest of your life.
You are 100% mature in the Lord, 100% sanctified, and there is no need to do anything further.

Others believe...
Well we are supposed to be an example to other Christians and not cause them to stumble in their faith.
We are supposed to be an example to the un-saved. We are supposed to show love and patience to them, so that the name of God will not be blasphemed among them.
We are supposed to avoid bad company except when we are witnessing. We are told to evangelize. We are told to study scripture, to lift each other up and bear each
others burdens. We are supposed to confess our sins and do our best to repent of them. We are to reconcile our differences with each other in a spirit of peace.
We are told to pray for another, share our testimonies with one another, encourage each other, etc...

Doing all of these things is called sanctification. Becoming more holy, becoming more mature, becoming more loving.
Many people believe this doesn't happen immediately upon the moment of salvation, but is an on-going process. (sanctification).

I would add "following the commandments" to the list above, but this is a bone of contention. However, I still contend that following them isn't what saves us.
We are already saved. They are just another part of what sanctifies us. Ironically, while just about everyone agrees that we should love one another, many believe
we don't have to follow the commandments. I agree, we don't HAVE to. But what's the difference between following the commandments and loving your neighbor?

Obviously there are many points of view on this. But do we have to love our neighbor to be saved?
Or is it just something that should start happening over a period of time after we are saved, even if it isn't a requirement?

How about the first and foremost commandment? Do we have to love God to be saved?

 

[Barny]

This all comes back to your view of salvation vs sanctification.

I think everyone here would say "I'm saved". I'm as saved as I can get. What else do I have to do to be saved? The answer of course is... "nothing".
So if I'm already going to heaven, what's the point of doing anything else?

Some people believe that once you get saved, you are as perfect as you will ever be. They believe you are completely sinless for the rest of your life.
You are 100% mature in the Lord, 100% sanctified, and there is no need to do anything further.

Others believe...
Well we are supposed to be an example to other Christians and not cause them to stumble in their faith.
We are supposed to be an example to the un-saved. We are supposed to show love and patience to them, so that the name of God will not be blasphemed among them.
We are supposed to avoid bad company except when we are witnessing. We are told to evangelize. We are told to study scripture, to lift each other up and bear each
others burdens. We are supposed to confess our sins and do our best to repent of them. We are to reconcile our differences with each other in a spirit of peace.
We are told to pray for another, share our testimonies with one another, encourage each other, etc...

Doing all of these things is called sanctification. Becoming more holy, becoming more mature, becoming more loving.
Many people believe this doesn't happen immediately upon the moment of salvation, but is an on-going process. (sanctification).

I would add "following the commandments" to the list above, but this is a bone of contention. However, I still contend that following them isn't what saves us.
We are already saved. They are just another part of what sanctifies us. Ironically, while just about everyone agrees that we should love one another, many believe
we don't have to follow the commandments. I agree, we don't HAVE to. But what's the difference between following the commandments and loving your neighbor?

Obviously there are many points of view on this. But do we have to love our neighbor to be saved?
Or is it just something that should start happening over a period of time after we are saved, even if it isn't a requirement?

How about the first and foremost commandment? Do we have to love God to be saved?

Hi B-A-C,

Your description of our differing views is in need of clarification to avoid being misleading.
My view, which you sort of described above, is actually from God's word.

Once we're saved are we "perfect"?
Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Are we sanctified?
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Are we sinless?
Yes, in Christ we cannot be charged with sin.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

In Christ we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1John 3:6-9.
We abide in Christ, 1John 3:6, and in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3;5.

As for your claim that we don't need to do anything further,......well in regards to salvation that is true. The thief on the cross who believed in Jesus could only do that, and that sums up what is required for salvation.
But for those who live on in this life as Christians, we evangelize, love and encourage one another, study scripture, etc, etc. So it's somewhat similar to your description of the "Others" you described.

One of the few differences in your descriptions of the 2 groups is that I do not refer to this as a "process" of sanctification, as this is not supported in scripture. Instead, Heb 10:10 shows that sanctification came about once, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ.

As for "repentance", this was also only once, as Heb 6:1-6 describes. And our repentance was of dead works.

And we don't become "more holy" through a "process" either.
You focus too much on physical behavior and hence lose sight of the truth that it's Christ that is holy, righteous and perfect, and we merely benefit of this through being one with Christ.

Rom 11:16
"For if the firstfruit (Christ) be holy, the lump is also holy:

As the thief on the cross did not go through the "process" you claim we need to go through, then that would mean he was not holy/sanctified/perfected in the same manner you claim we are. No doubt you believe the thief on the cross was fast-tracked and did not have to go through the long drawn out process like we have to endure. Is that correct?

Why would God fast-track those with death-bed salvation whilst others have to endure a long "process"?
If Christ's one offering made the thief on the cross holy/sanctified/righteous/purified/perfected, immediately, why didn't it do the same for those who continue to live on in this physical life?

Instead, I would suggest to you that all those varying physical behavior improvements, that you focus so much on, are in fact a result of our relationship with God.

 

[B-A-C]

It's funny how much the meaning of sngle verses pulled out of context change, once you put them back into the other verses surrounding them.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Jesus will.
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Let us mature and quit doing things that require asking for forgiveness.

Heb 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do, if God permits.
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Obviously this is talking those who have fallen away from the faith, not those who have sinned since they got saved.

1 Pet 4:1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
Think like Jesus did and quit sinning.

1 Pet 4:2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
1 Pet 4:4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;

By now you should have matured past all of this.

1 Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
1 Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
1 Jn 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (and those who are saved also)

2 Tim 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

If you are sanctified, you don't do these things any longer. In fact that's how you got sanctified.

Col 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
Col 3:6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
Col 3:7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,

If you are still doing these things, you aren't in the Spirit, you are still in your "earthly body" (verse 5)