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What does believing in Jesus mean?

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Member
Hello Brothers,
Just a little curious on your positions. :smile:

So context, including the chronology of Scripture is necessary to make a determination on singular verses? Yes/No

If so, does this include the Epistles and other Books, which followed the Gospels in making such a determination?

I'm asking this because I'm truly trying to tie down the theology of or should I say the doctrine of money that is the preface for part of this thread directing us to complete obedience.
If my understanding/extrapolating in combining what both of you have said individually is, if verses were used while Jesus' Earthly Ministry was directed specifically to the Nation of Israeli, and only after His Resurrection would they then apply to those who have come to believe, both Jew & Gentile. Would it then have affect as to what must apply to all believers as being a sign of obedience?

Side Note: Is, the meaning of "mammon" depending upon the time since it's inception into the English Language, a consideration, and/or do we hold to the Greek language and usage within the context of Scripture reference?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
I don't want anything I say, to make people think that they don't have to obey Jesus. We have to obey the things that He taught. So, if something I have said makes anyone think they that don't have to obey Jesus, then throw it out. Because we do have to obey what he taught.
 
Active
If that is all you got to not obey the things that Jesus taught, you have the weakest case I have ever heard.
I am not trying to teach anyone not to obey Jesus. I am trying to show that to obey Jesus, you must first know what it is He is saying or commanding. And as you have proved, He is not saying (Matt. 10:5) to you, me, or any other believer alive today.

Quantrill
 
Active
I don't want anything I say, to make people think that they don't have to obey Jesus. We have to obey the things that He taught. So, if something I have said makes anyone think they that don't have to obey Jesus, then throw it out. Because we do have to obey what he taught.
Just because you recognize that (Matt. 10:5) is not a command of Jesus to you, to obey, doesn't mean you are teaching people not to obey Jesus. Thus you see the importance of learning what things Jesus said and who they are applied to.

Quantrill
 
Moderator
Staff Member
I don't want anything I say, to make people think that they don't have to obey Jesus. We have to obey the things that He taught. So, if something I have said makes anyone think they that don't have to obey Jesus, then throw it out. Because we do have to obey what he taught.
Nice way of avoiding any of the questions :smile:

I'm sure you believed I was trying to set a trap, but truly that is not the case. Just that questions come from have more of the Scripture available to one and understanding that context is important. Otherwise, without it, we'd still be stoning people for all the offenses that require it. Social mores not withstanding.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Active
Hello Brothers,
Just a little curious on your positions. :smile:

So context, including the chronology of Scripture is necessary to make a determination on singular verses? Yes/No

If so, does this include the Epistles and other Books, which followed the Gospels in making such a determination?

I'm asking this because I'm truly trying to tie down the theology of or should I say the doctrine of money that is the preface for part of this thread directing us to complete obedience.
If my understanding/extrapolating in combining what both of you have said individually is, if verses were used while Jesus' Earthly Ministry was directed specifically to the Nation of Israeli, and only after His Resurrection would they then apply to those who have come to believe, both Jew & Gentile. Would it then have affect as to what must apply to all believers as being a sign of obedience?

Side Note: Is, the meaning of "mammon" depending upon the time since it's inception into the English Language, a consideration, and/or do we hold to the Greek language and usage within the context of Scripture reference?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Concerning being a disciple of Christ and forsaking all that you have, (Luke 14:33), that too, must be seen in light of Christ's message to Israel, to whom the Gospel of the Kingdom was addressed. The time of Christ offering the Kingdom to Israel, and the time afterward when she rejected that offer, changed things in the message and direction etc. etc.

So, just as we saw with (Matt. 10:5-6) and (Matt. 28:19), there was a change in the direction of the Gospel. In fact, there was a change in the Gospel. The Gospel of the Kingdom is "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 3:2) (Matt. 4:17) (Matt. 10:7) After the rejection of Christ and that Kingdom, Christ focused the message on Himself, as the Son of God. He was rejected as Israel's King. (Matt. 16:13-20) Thus He charged his disciples to no more preach Jesus as the Messiah. (16:20)

Concerning (Luke 14:33) and the disciple forsaking all that he has to follow Christ, that is true under the Gospel of the kingdom. Jesus was physically present with them and ready to bring the Kingdom to Israel as promised in the Old Testament. And Jesus Christ required them to leave all, and depend solely on Him. They were to take no money, as He would provide. (Luke 10:3-4) (Luke 9:2-6) "...Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money: neither have two coats apiece."

But, after the rejection of the Kingdom and Christ by Israel, that order changed. And Christ reminded them of this. (Luke 22:35-36) "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. The said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." The two words, "But now" indicate the change.

Christ is saying take money. Take a sword. Be wise with it. Don't be foolish. You go to a Christ rejecting world which is about to crucify Me. And they will have the same attitude towards you.

This doesn't mean we serve money. Of course not. But we do not have to give it all away to follow Christ. This doesn't mean I trust the sword to bring in the kingdom, but neither do I neglect it when it is necessary. If I am passing out tracts on a street corner, and am attacked for it, I do not pull the sword. But if I am going somewhere and a robber attacks, I can surely defend myself.

Quantrill
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@Quantrill
Hello Brother,
Thank-you for sharing your thoughts on Scripture and the context therein.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Member
I am not trying to teach anyone not to obey Jesus. I am trying to show that to obey Jesus, you must first know what it is He is saying or commanding. And as you have proved, He is not saying (Matt. 10:5) to you, me, or any other believer alive today.

Quantrill
Ok, so if you are not telling people that they don't have to obey Jesus. Then tell me, do people have to obey (Luke 14:33 and Luke 12:33) and I am not talking about in their heart. I actually mean obeying this command. Everyone wants to say that what Jesus taught is not to be taken literally, and if this is what you believe, show me where He says this. Also, name one of His disciples who did not do what He commanded. Remember a Christian and a disciple are the same thing, you can find that in (Acts 11:26).
 
Member
Nice way of avoiding any of the questions :smile:

I'm sure you believed I was trying to set a trap, but truly that is not the case. Just that questions come from have more of the Scripture available to one and understanding that context is important. Otherwise, without it, we'd still be stoning people for all the offenses that require it. Social mores not withstanding.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Jesus tells us to come to Him as little children. Have you ever wondered why? It's because children can be taught and we as adults are stuck in our ways (me included). We think we know everything already and our pride wants to show everyone that we do (me included). The toughest thing is trying to get someone to look at something like they don't already know the answer. All I am asking people to do is pray and ask for the eyes to see and the ears to hear brother. That's all I am trying to get anyone to do.

I hope this finds you well.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Jesus tells us to come to Him as little children. Have you ever wondered why? It's because children can be taught and we as adults are stuck in our ways (me included). We think we know everything already and our pride wants to show everyone that we do (me included). The toughest thing is trying to get someone to look at something like they don't already know the answer. All I am asking people to do is pray and ask for the eyes to see and the ears to hear brother. That's all I am trying to get anyone to do.

I hope this finds you well.
Hello Spreading the Gospel,
I don't question your sincerity brother. Really I don't. Only a wolf would dare do or present themselves as you have so far.
I'm in agreement with you that children's acceptance is such that until they are lied to they readily will follow one anywhere.
Yet, each child grows, and those who come to Christ Jesus especially so.

I realize that you truly seek to impart the truth you have and the World needs through Jesus Christ. Still, even that truth is not complete, but only sets one upon a path that there is no end to. What we are tasked to do is not an end unto itself, but a means to a Way, that as I have said there is no end to if one believes in Him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Member
Hello Spreading the Gospel,
I don't question your sincerity brother. Really I don't. Only a wolf would dare do or present themselves as you have so far.
I'm in agreement with you that children's acceptance is such that until they are lied to they readily will follow one anywhere.
Yet, each child grows, and those who come to Christ Jesus especially so.

I realize that you truly seek to impart the truth you have and the World needs through Jesus Christ. Still, even that truth is not complete, but only sets one upon a path that there is no end to. What we are tasked to do is not an end unto itself, but a means to a Way, that as I have said there is no end to if one believes in Him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
So, you agree that Jesus is setting a path for us to follow?

I also agree that the path we are own will always continue and we will always be growing or we will be destroyed spiritually. I can tell you now quitting my job was easy, selling my things were easy, leaving my family was easy, and going into all the world preaching the gospel is easy. It all just seems like a huge step when we are doing it because the world is not run by God, it is run by satan. The hardest thing now to deal with, is myself. My greed, my laziness, my selfish desires, and everything else that the world calls normal. So, yes Jesus was right when He said, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" he was also right when he said " the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life". They sound like a contradiction, but they are not. He is saying what He is asking us to do is easy and we all can do it, but staying on the path is hard once we realize that we are the problem. We are what is wrong with this world. People don't like the light, because it exposes who they really are.

I hope this finds you well.
 
Active
Ok, so if you are not telling people that they don't have to obey Jesus. Then tell me, do people have to obey (Luke 14:33 and Luke 12:33) and I am not talking about in their heart. I actually mean obeying this command. Everyone wants to say that what Jesus taught is not to be taken literally, and if this is what you believe, show me where He says this. Also, name one of His disciples who did not do what He commanded. Remember a Christian and a disciple are the same thing, you can find that in (Acts 11:26).
Read post #(25) and then get back with me.

Quantrill
 
Moderator
Staff Member
So, you agree that Jesus is setting a path for us to follow?

I also agree that the path we are own will always continue and we will always be growing or we will be destroyed spiritually. I can tell you now quitting my job was easy, selling my things were easy, leaving my family was easy, and going into all the world preaching the gospel is easy. It all just seems like a huge step when we are doing it because the world is not run by God, it is run by satan. The hardest thing now to deal with, is myself. My greed, my laziness, my selfish desires, and everything else that the world calls normal. So, yes Jesus was right when He said, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" he was also right when he said " the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life". They sound like a contradiction, but they are not. He is saying what He is asking us to do is easy and we all can do it, but staying on the path is hard once we realize that we are the problem. We are what is wrong with this world. People don't like the light, because it exposes who they really are.

I hope this finds you well.
Hello Spreading the Gospel,

Yes the Godhead is placing us on a path to follow. The path is not identical, but unique to each person. If you seek examples, then look to the lives of the Apostles themselves, and also Christians throughout the World. I've seen it here on Talk Jesus in so many ways including your own. We had a Brother in Christ Jesus who as a clown would make animal shapes out of balloons while preaching on the streets the Gospel to others. Can you picture Jesus doing this? I can't, but is this wrong? Peter's ministry was to the Jew, while Paul's was to the Gentiles. Was this wrong that each was given not to all, but to a certain people of the World in that day for the Gospel to be preached?

This is why, I will toss questions to you all such as "If I don't follow exactly what Jesus did, does this mean that I won't be Saved?". "We are to be perfect as God is perfect, but in failing that are we not then redeemed?". This is not to disabuse you all from following what the Holy Spirit and The Word of God has set upon your Spirit to do. God forbid! Rather, what is being done in your lives is not necessarily what God's will is for everyone. It's not a neat little box, that can be tied with a bow that everyone will follow in the path set out to them by God.

You say that Jesus said to give it all, follow Him, and yet we see in Matthew 8:14 that our Lord was at Peter's house healing not only his Mother-in-Law, but as the night fell others as well. We need context to what we read. Why? Because unlike them who were living our Lord's Earthly Ministry, we have the ability to look back and see the larger picture that they themselves were unable to at that time. Not the complete picture mind you! Not to caste doubt in what you do, for as I said before that is the last thing I want to do, and I hope and pray for you alls success in the lives you touch with the Gospel wherever you find them. Just don't tie them to Laws of this or that. For if you do, you will have replaced one set of Laws for another, no different and as unforgiving.

I like to look to the first complete presentation of the Gospel from Mary to the Apostles themselves. Did the Apostles believe it when they heard it from her? No. Does this mean that they were not Saved or would it require works yet to be done for them to be so? Or when Jesus finally presented Himself to them, resurrected, did in their newly found belief, then find themselves Saved?

Our God has created us for good works. That is our purpose, good works. Not our Salvation. (Can of worms about to be opened with this one :smile: ) Keep walking in them Brother, and don't be swayed, but temper it to a greater understanding.

I could go on, but I won't.
With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Member
Hello Spreading the Gospel,

Yes the Godhead is placing us on a path to follow. The path is not identical, but unique to each person. If you seek examples, then look to the lives of the Apostles themselves, and also Christians throughout the World. I've seen it here on Talk Jesus in so many ways including your own. We had a Brother in Christ Jesus who as a clown would make animal shapes out of balloons while preaching on the streets the Gospel to others. Can you picture Jesus doing this? I can't, but is this wrong? Peter's ministry was to the Jew, while Paul's was to the Gentiles. Was this wrong that each was given not to all, but to a certain people of the World in that day for the Gospel to be preached?

This is why, I will toss questions to you all such as "If I don't follow exactly what Jesus did, does this mean that I won't be Saved?". "We are to be perfect as God is perfect, but in failing that are we not then redeemed?". This is not to disabuse you all from following what the Holy Spirit and The Word of God has set upon your Spirit to do. God forbid! Rather, what is being done in your lives is not necessarily what God's will is for everyone. It's not a neat little box, that can be tied with a bow that everyone will follow in the path set out to them by God.

You say that Jesus said to give it all, follow Him, and yet we see in Matthew 8:14 that our Lord was at Peter's house healing not only his Mother-in-Law, but as the night fell others as well. We need context to what we read. Why? Because unlike them who were living our Lord's Earthly Ministry, we have the ability to look back and see the larger picture that they themselves were unable to at that time. Not the complete picture mind you! Not to caste doubt in what you do, for as I said before that is the last thing I want to do, and I hope and pray for you alls success in the lives you touch with the Gospel wherever you find them. Just don't tie them to Laws of this or that. For if you do, you will have replaced one set of Laws for another, no different and as unforgiving.

I like to look to the first complete presentation of the Gospel from Mary to the Apostles themselves. Did the Apostles believe it when they heard it from her? No. Does this mean that they were not Saved or would it require works yet to be done for them to be so? Or when Jesus finally presented Himself to them, resurrected, did in their newly found belief, then find themselves Saved?

Our God has created us for good works. That is our purpose, good works. Not our Salvation. (Can of worms about to be opened with this one :smile: ) Keep walking in them Brother, and don't be swayed, but temper it to a greater understanding.

I could go on, but I won't.
With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Hey Nick,

It all boils down this, why do we want to pick an choose what we obey? If you have children, do you let them pick an choose what they want to obey? We could go back and forth forever on this subject, but it all comes down to obedience.

I will try one other approach at this. Jesus says, "you can't serve two masters, either you will love one and hate the other, you can't serve (work) both God and mammon (money) at the same time" (Mathew 6:24). God is wanting us to totally trust in his provision and that he will take care of us. This is a teaching of Jesus, either you serve God or you serve money, there is not in between. So, with this being said in (Revelation 13:16-18) talks about a mark that is coming that you cannot buy or sale, without this mark. That being said, when this mark comes and if anyone takes it, they are choosing to serve money other than God. What are you going to do then? Will you say then that we all have different paths and that some can take it and still be ok?

I agree that we all are different parts of the body, but we all have to listen to same the teacher (Jesus), to even start on that path.

I hope you have a good day, I am not trying to say I am right and you are wrong. I am just saying that Jesus is right and we should do what He says.
 
Member
Read post #(25) and then get back with me.

Quantrill
Read the teachings of Jesus like a little child, and then get back with me. I am not here to argue with you brother. I am just here to point people to what Jesus taught. You can say we don't have to obey his teachings if you want. But, I wouldn't want to be saying that to God on judgement day. Jesus says himself "my words will judge you on the last day"(John 12:48). He doesn't say anything about our opinions on what he spoke. So, I am going to take him literally, it's your choice what you choose to do.
 
Member
The two statements do contradict. They are not the same. Thus you must understand that something has changed. Which means you don't go to the Bible and just pull out a verse as though it speaks to you. It may or it may not.

You must pay attention to who is addressed and the responsibility they are under before God.

Quantrill
Agree. The scriptures NEVER contradict each other, false application and/or interpretation does.
 
Active
Read the teachings of Jesus like a little child, and then get back with me. I am not here to argue with you brother. I am just here to point people to what Jesus taught. You can say we don't have to obey his teachings if you want. But, I wouldn't want to be saying that to God on judgement day. Jesus says himself "my words will judge you on the last day"(John 12:48). He doesn't say anything about our opinions on what he spoke. So, I am going to take him literally, it's your choice what you choose to do.
That's just it. You misapply Jesus teaching. Not all of what He said is to the Church.

I didn't give you my opinion in post #(25). I showed you in Scripture. Yet you ignore it. You can't argue against it which is why you say you have no argument with me.

Nothing wrong with taking Jesus literally. Just make sure you apply His literal teaching to the right people.

Quantrill
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings,

To those who claim to have left all and serve not money. Good, if that is so.
May I ask a question or two?

Why on earth are you using the internet?
Do you ever accept money from anyone or goods that money has paid for?


Bless you ....><>
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings again ,

Why did Jesus upturn the tables etc in the Temple?


Bless you ....><>
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Hey Nick,

It all boils down this, why do we want to pick an choose what we obey? If you have children, do you let them pick an choose what they want to obey? We could go back and forth forever on this subject, but it all comes down to obedience.

I will try one other approach at this. Jesus says, "you can't serve two masters, either you will love one and hate the other, you can't serve (work) both God and mammon (money) at the same time" (Mathew 6:24). God is wanting us to totally trust in his provision and that he will take care of us. This is a teaching of Jesus, either you serve God or you serve money, there is not in between. So, with this being said in (Revelation 13:16-18) talks about a mark that is coming that you cannot buy or sale, without this mark. That being said, when this mark comes and if anyone takes it, they are choosing to serve money other than God. What are you going to do then? Will you say then that we all have different paths and that some can take it and still be ok?

I agree that we all are different parts of the body, but we all have to listen to same the teacher (Jesus), to even start on that path.

I hope you have a good day, I am not trying to say I am right and you are wrong. I am just saying that Jesus is right and we should do what He says.
Hello Spreading the Gospel,
Contrary to what you are saying, we do pick and choose, or we'd be stoning the next person who does xy or z. It's what moves us in doing so that we need to understand. For if it's not the understanding provided by the Holy Spirit, one is right in questioning it.

Now, when we look at the Bible, it all comes down to the literal translation, translated verses, of what God would have us do by looking to the Words He has provided us in or out of context to the whole. Segmenting the Bible to this or that, with faulty reasoning does not make it right, even if the words were said by Jesus. Perfect example, is the temptation of Christ in the desert by the Adversary. Satan used Scripture to tempt Christ with. Our Lord used Scripture right back at him. What was the issue with what Satan did? Surely, it wasn't the Scripture was it? Of course not. It was the context to the situation that was wrong, and so the deception.

The theology that you are following, dilutes anything that is not seen as being spoken directly by Christ. Not realizing that when you diminish the rest of the Bible, you are also diminishing His Words as well. Why? Because the Godly men who penned the Gospels, are the same Godly men who penned the rest of Scripture. Now we do not have the original autographs to go by and I believe for very good reason. Man cannot help themselves, and would wind up venerating them. Now, for you and others who have come here in group, see it as a black & white issue. Jesus' Words are perfect, while everything else must fall exactly in accord with His Words, and context only a secondary consideration, if considered at all must be in accord with the literal meaning.

I'm sure you don't see the issue, because to think or believe otherwise, is to denigrate the very Words that were meant to be communicated to us. Yet, you do not believe in the infallibility of Scripture. Because you don't, it required someone to state what would be the standard that is acceptable. That is how the Words of Jesus only came about. All the Words in the Bible come by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Probably the only ones in the NT that could be considered differently is Luke, and Acts. They were written by someone who had no actual direct communication with the Messiah that we are aware of, but doesn't mean he was not inspired to do so. Even Paul was taught directly of Christ, but if you don't believe what is written therein then that makes him a liar and every Epistle written by him, and of course Peter, because he backs up Paul, means he also is bogus and of Satan. If so, how can you trust that the very Gospels you proclaim over all others is anymore accurate? Understand that all of Scripture came by way of the Holy Spirit who spoke to them only reminded them of what Jesus said.

We don't have every single thing that Jesus did. As Scripture points out, there won't be enough room in the world to contain all the books that would be written concerning them.

You can't narrow God by taking/ignoring away Words He has given us to know. We can only hope to as you are attempting to do, which I pray successfully, and that is follow them, but also something that you are having difficulty doing, and that is knowing/understanding them within the context provided.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 

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