Were head coverings just for Corinth?

[Carlos]

I am writing an ebook (which I plan to give away freely) on head coverings and have tentatively arrived at a number of conclusions.

One of those being that the church as a whole, especially in Western nations, is WAY off in it's own conclusions on what Paul said. So much so that I sometimes wonder if rebellion in the church runs much deeper than I have previously thought.

But for purposes of this thread I am particularly interested in getting input on the following statement that represents one conclusion I have tentatively come to.

Please make sure you read this entire post before anyone gets to jumping all over me regarding my tentative conclusion. Please note in particular the number of times I have bolded the word tentative meaning that my statement of conclusion below is...well...tentative such that I am open and very desirous of hearing how it may not represent truth by God on this matter.

The one thing I do not want to do under any circumstances is publish a book with a conclusion that is faulty by the Lord.

Anyone who embraces the belief that head coverings as taught by Paul were only instructions meant to be applied by the Corinthians and that they are irrelevant as such for today is either ignorant, deceived, or outright rebellious.

Let me briefly explain why I have tentatively concluded the above.

Paul gave a number of reasons to support what he taught about head coverings. ALL his reasons are culturally neutral. Meaning that his reasons apply to all time and in all places due to being rooted in things like the creation order and other such things.

NONE of Paul's reasons for the practice of head coverings are connected with the culture in Corinth or any other New Testament culture at all.

Note that I said NONE.

New Testament churches universally rejected the custom of women praying to God with head uncovered. Such a thing was also rejected by most all churches until about the last 100 years.

If the above is accurate with respect to what is written then anyone who embraces a belief that the instructions on head coverings were just for Corinth would be...

Ignorant of what is written in that what is written clearly shows no cultural connection at all and lays out reasons that apply across all times and all cultures.

Deceived in embracing modern day conjecture, theory, assumption, or otherwise about the cultural relevance of head coverings only for Corinth while ignoring what is plainly written in the text.

Outright rebellious in simply ignoring what is written despite knowing what it says.

Now someone could be innocently mistaken about this but such would fall into the ignorant category since to be innocently mistaken implies an ignorance of what is written such that they could be innocent in being mistaken.

I would appreciate hearing any thoughts on how my conclusion is faulty not for the purpose of arguing but rather to allow me to scrap this conclusion if on further reflection based on input...my conclusion does not represent the heart of God on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

 

[Carlos]

You know what astounds me? I mean really astounds me.

Christians claim far and wide to believe in the Bible as the Word of God to us. That it is our guide to all things pertaining to life and godliness.

Yet we ignore, just plain ignore, or dismiss with indifference things like head coverings as if what Paul taught about this was not at all God's will.

People don't want to hear about head coverings. They just don't want to hear it.

It doesn't fit with their concept of what modern day church is.

Yet the Lord calls all true Christians to listen to what He inspired Paul to say. There is a reason for what Paul said.

I encourage each of you that may ever see this thread to seriously consider whether or not you are really willing to follow God and to apply His ideals for the Body as they are written.

I assure you that none of the reasons for so many to ignore this, and other issues which are unpopular, don't hold any water. From where I am standing it's nothing but a bunch of excuses for disobedience.

I wish you all well.

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Grace and peace to you Carlos,
Dios Te Bendiga,


Question first for you before GOD will even allow me to answer this:

Do you believe in JESUS CHRIST as the Son of GOD, word of GOD made flesh, and our saviour??


Vaya Con Dios.

 

[Carlos]

Jesus Christ is not just the Son of God but also God in the flesh (don't ask me how that can be as I don't know...I just believe it).

He is my Saviour AND my Lord. My life is His to do with as He might wish to do with it.

If you have any other question by all means ask it.

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

DIO TE BENDIGA!!

AMEN!!

Gracias Amigo!!

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

My brother in CHrist.

JESUS says, " Test the spirit".
So, asking those questions is a test.
Very few will lie about that, and if they do, WOW!
But it's rare I have seen it yet.
Many use the name JESUS, but when asked if they believe, it usually weeds out many.

But, overjoyed to hear you believe.

Yet, if we know that GOD gives us all spiritual gifts, why the rush to categorize ( which can be judging) the levels of faith where people may be or not be?? Then we suffer from JESUS saying, " Judge thee not less ye be judged", because aren't we all IGNORANT, DECEIVED, OUTRIGHT REBELLIOUS and more.......at times; especially when we are in sin.

Why not just state your point, make it valid through the word, and then GOD will handle it all?
THis is the way of CHRIST.
HE is simple.

It's our mission to plant a seed, and GOD does the rest.

Do nothing to influence your brother and sister in CHRIST to sin.
So, if you or people you know need a head covering then they should do that, as well as believers who love CHRIST should do that around those that need that to keep their faith contained and steadfast.

This is the parable of the man that could eat anything and the man that could only eat vegetables.
The man that can eat anything should eat vegetables with the man that can only eat vegetables when he/she is around that person; if it's going to help keep that man steadfast in the LORD.

When all read the full WORD ( Bible) cover to cover.
It's a book of love.
When we love we are bendable in order to serve others in the faith and show love that can bring those not in the faith to the faith by the amazing love shown.
It's simple.
The world makes it difficult due to factors mentioned in REVELATIONS Chapters 19-21.
Yet, for believers, it's simple.
That's if they are following all JESUS says:

Mark 12:29-31
Matthew 5:43-48

 

[Carlos]

Why not just state your point, make it valid through the word, and then GOD will handle it all?

I have tried that way and it doesn't work very well. Why?

Because the rebellion and deception in the heart of people about this and other issues is not pointed out allowing people to continue to believe nonsense and to think they are just fine.

THis is the way of CHRIST.

Will all due respect if simply pointing out truth and letting God handle it all is the way of Christ why did Jesus call out the Pharisees as hypocrites?

Why did John the Baptist call the scribes and others sent to ask who he was...a brood of vipers?

Why did Paul tell Titus to rebuke Cretans so that they would be sound in the faith?

Why did Paul rebuke Peter when he lived like the Gentiles until Jews came for a visiting at which point Peter began to distance himself from the Gentile Christians?

Truth is wonderful but there are times and the above are just a few such instances when we as a Body must confront sin in the life of others for the sake of the Body and the glory of God within it.

There is a cancer within the church. A cancer of rebellion. A cancer that must be exposed and rooted out.

Many folks who go to Sunday service faithfully have never even given their lives to Christ and are not His disciples. They aren't even Christians!

I have gotten more persecution for standing on what the Word says from so-called Christians than I have ever received from unbelievers for sharing the Gospel with them.

The Lord has all but told me to focus on sharing the Gospel and winning the lost and teaching them His way of church instead of continuing to butt my head against the brick wall of churchy folks who are not surrendered to Him at all. I need to focus on and spend time with those who have not been all but brainwashed by church traditions into ignoring parts of the Word.

It is beyond me to understand how people who profess to love God can read the bible and, specifically for purposes of this thread Paul's teaching on head coverings, ignore what Paul said. Beyond me.

It's there in black and white. It is clear.

All the reasonings that I have ever heard or encountered are nothing but a bunch of excuses for disobedience. They don't hold any water. Not when you really analyze them and think them through in light of what is written.

I'm done trying to butt heads with professing believers over this and other issues. It just doesn't do any good.

Jesus said that those who are accustomed to the old wine (the traditional way of doing things) are content with the old and have no heart for the new. The irony is that the new in this case is really not new at all. It is the New Testament way. The oldest and truest way there is.

But churchy folks have no stomach for this or any other issue which requires submission to God.

They don't want to hear it.

Sad.

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

Dios Te Bendiga mi Hermano.

Many of us want to follow CHRIST, yet, we don't truly understand the full process.
What we want of others, we can't even live.
Don't we ever think that JESUS wants us to turn over completely to HIM??? Of course, but we still sin.

HIS LOVE waits for us.

This is what you must do.

When we are used by GOD through faith in CHRIST to give a message that is valid through the WORD, that is called planting a seed.
GOD brings the increase to all things.
HE will water it and help it's process to grow through JESUS CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT.
Believers have to realize this much in order to know what it is to be " Chrisitan".

As JESUS says, " If they deny me they will deny you".
Many don't like to be denied, but when we sin we do it all the time to JESUS. Yet, HE stays patient; and HE had no sin.

We have sin, and yet can't be patient for other sinners.

Always know that GOD's word NEVER COMES BACK VOID.
So in faith a believer should know that when they plant a seed (message), it will be served.
But it will be served when GOD wants it to be served, and HE will get the praise; not us.
Yet, when HE allows us to see that seed is planted ( could be minutes or years later), then we along with the person/s that we were told to plant the seed into ( minister to) will praise HIS HOLY NAME; and not our own.



As far as why did JESUS, John, Paul, Peter, etc....call out the evils??
GOD had me give you the answer to who they are in REVELATIONS chapters 19-21.
They called out, because they were giving warnings to believers.
Warning that these people were the humans that decided to follow the evil one or were his angels from the 3rd of heaven; which could be in any form of society.

GOD comes to judge HIS believers ( the ONE CHURCH) first.
Has nothing to do with a church building.
We already know from the OT ( old testament) that even GOD said that buildings can not contain HIM.
Then later we know from JESUS, GOD's word made flesh that HE says that our home is not here, it's in heaven.

If you are focused here and what is going on here, especially when JESUS said there will be false prophets, wars, rumors, etc....then your focus is in the wrong place; it's not in heaven. Heaven starts within. Which is where each temple in the ONE BIG CHURCH is.



If you are truthfully seeking, then GOD will have you understand eventually.


Palante Con Dios mi Hermano

 

[stephen]

Dear friend and brother in Jesus.....Welcome to T'J' The hat problem takes me back to my youth. Such matters at that time
were in vouge.

Now I wonder.

Founding a Church from a Sunday School in my youth. Last year a £250,000 facility was erected Free Of Charge resulting from my youthful investment.

A precious fellowship of Christian folks still gathering there...I visit by invitation from the young Pastor.

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

Grace and peace to you!
Dios te bendiga!

If you are aware and read what GOD had me say to you in the reply, then your test is already started.
Please read carefully my brother and stay spiritually aware.

Grace and peace to you and love of CHRIST to all.

 

[Carlos]

Hi there (don't want to call you Lord Jesus Christ since...well...no offense but calling you that makes me a bit uncomfortable...I hope you understand),

A couple of comments on your last posting if I may.

First off I want you to know that although I may seem to have snubbed or ignored your previous input I did not. I have been praying about what you said and carefully weighing whether or not I am being overly antagonistic in stating what I wanted input on.

I am not so much focused on this life but more on living the life as part of the Body in the way God wants it lived.

There are instructions for how we as a Body ought to be. In this life. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what our conduct in this life ought to be by God.

Sure we all fall into sin here and there. No question.

But falling into the sin that so easily entangles us all is no excuse for out and out ignoring what God said we are to do in the issue of head coverings (as well as other things which this thread is not about).

Too many Christians hide behind the fact that we are imperfect and fall into sin here and there to excuse away disobedience of what is clearly written.

Too many Christians raise the banner of saying that no church is perfect to excuse away imperfection that WE are called to do something about in our conduct.

Excuses, excuses...one and all.

The Word is clear. It is there in black and white.

Women are to wear head coverings when praying or prophesying. Men not.

We just don't do it is all and we embrace every foolish notion and excuse imaginable to completely ignore Paul's instructions on the matter.

That is why I concluded as I did.

Because there is NO excuse for ignoring what is written. God didn't inspire Paul to pen 16 whole verses for nothing!

The stuff Christians are prone to believe about what Paul wrote on head coverings is unbelievable. The poorest excuse for proper interpretation I think I have ever seen. One of the clearest examples of superimposing on what is written around. We embrace any and every conjecture, foolish notion, assumption, theory, and otherwise to ignore what is written.

That's disobedience by any other name if not outright rebellion (assuming we are not just ignorant of what is written).

I am seeking God truthfully on this and other issues but what you fail to understand bro is that God will not give me understanding at some point. He already has given me the understanding that you say I will acquire in the future! It's here now and it is for any that have ears to truly hear (at least regarding head coverings).

Many say that this issue is unimportant. Yet how foolish is that when the entire New Testament church universally rejected the custom of women praying with heads uncovered. And when church history down to the last 100 years or so almost universally practiced what Paul taught on head coverings.

Jesus did not say that we should ignore ANY issue. He said that we ought to do those issues which are more important such as judgement, mercy, and faith while not ignoring those that are not.

Matthew 23:23 (AKJV)

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If we ignore issues that we deem to be minor such as head coverings we are as guilty as the Pharisees of not loving God with ALL our hearts, ALL our mind, and ALL our strength.

Carlos

 

[Carlos]

Hi Stephen,

It is true Stephen that head coverings were practiced more in previous times. There is a reason for that and that reason has to do with the way the church of today has strayed from what is written.

But what ultimately matters is not whether it was practiced more or less in previous times but rather whether or not not what is written is clear in instructing us to do a certain thing. If it is clear, and I believe it is, then we of today need to repent and get back to doing what our Father in heaven calls us to do through the Word for His greater glory and honor in and through the Body.

That's wonderful by the way how the Lord used you to start a fellowship Stephen!

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

Grace and peace my brother.

Actually I did not think you snubbed or ignored any of my posts.
This is what I meant to you about planting a seed.
I know GOD would bring you to read it, because HE sent me to send it, and whatever HE sends out will never come back void.

If I felt any ill will, it would be becasuse I wanted a " pat on the back", but I dont, becasuse I know GOD gets all the praise.
I, definitely know GOD gets all the praise for all things.

Did you understand what GOD says through Paul when he wrote what I already sent to you earlier ( about vegtables;without the passage)?? But here is the passage:

ROMANS 14:1-8
Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
To their own master, servants stand or fall.
And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.
Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.


Carlos,

It's not that your are wrong; that wasn't even said.
What GOD had me tell you is that if people need the head covering then go to those churches that do so.
Laws were not originally made by GOD for us, it's sin that made the GOD make laws for us after NOAH!!
That was in order to keep our lusts in various sins in check; for those that were taken in by it.

But, then JESUS came and disbanded all those laws and traditions by making it simple when HE says that
the greatest commandments is love: MARK 12:29-31.

If we love one another, then, like JESUS, we see everyone in their process.
This is actually a lot harder to do then obey a tradition.
Much harder.
Paul, who was a scholar of the Torah before JESUS came to him is not perfect, and instructed ( not commanded) the idea of what would work in the church building.
It was advice.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that GOD spoke all things through Paul, or else Paul wouldnt have had quite a few arguments.
He was torn at times.
As even Paul tore off his clothes when people tried to take him as the " end all be all":
ACTS 14:11-18
When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.
The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:“Friends, why are you doing this?
We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
In the past, he let all nations go their own way.
Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”
Even with these words, they had difficulty keeping the crowd from sacrificing to them.






JESUS, being the SON OF GOD, WORD of GOD MADE FLESH, that's the one we follow in full force.

So, if a person needs to go to a church where there are people who take a Saturday as sabbath, then they go there.
If they need a church everyone is on their knees worshipping together, then they go there.
If they need a church where all the women are silent with head coverings, then they go there.
If they need a church where there is a lot of singing and praise, then they go there.
and so on.........all these churches serve PART of the ONE BODY of CHRIST.

ROMANS 12:3-8
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us.
If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,
do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.


Everyone is a faith work in progress.
We must be like CHRIST, which is to work with people in their process, not try to make them our process.
THere are many in the same various processes as others.

There are some that have all the processes needed to be the walking church; but none are like CHRIST.

Because not only did CHRIST fulfill what was needed here, but for eternity, and also knew where is heaven; we don't know.

Our faith is furthest here if we follow again JESUS commandments:

MARK 12:29-31
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no commandment greater than these.”


AGAPE

 

[Carlos]

Okay my brother (I am just going to call you brother or bro if you don't mind barring any other name from you )....

If I understand you correctly, and please feel free to correct my understanding if I am not...what you are saying is that head coverings is a disputable matter of conscience such that it is okay for some to believe it is necessary and for others to believe it is not. Kinda like eating meat sacrificed to idols or keeping the Sabbath.

From that standpoint I can understand your view about each one going to a church in line with whatever they believe about such things.

But...if I may venture to disagree with your view I think it is very mistaken.

Here's why...

Head coverings and instructions on the proper use of head coverings is NOT a disputable matter. In the sense that there is room for varying interpretations to be held by Christians in good conscience.

It would be one thing if holding varying interpretations of Paul's instructions on head coverings was acceptable as holding various interpretations of whether to keep the Sabbath or not is.

If we allow for such varied interpretations on head coverings to be acceptable where does it end?

At what point do we put our foot down and say this is the correct interpretation or this is not?

Is the bible a matter of individual interpretation where each one's interpretation is right for them? Need I point out that such thinking if indeed that is what you are espousing is akin to today's moral relativism?

That head coverings is a disputable matter is a given but not in the biblical sense. Rather it is a disputable matter in that many today dispute what Paul so clearly taught on this.

That kind of disputableness is NOT biblically acceptable. Not by God and not by those who love the Lord and wish His will to be done in the Body.

We should not avoid the issue of head coverings because it causes disputes among Christians. Rather we should try and understand why people dispute what Paul said. Could it be because many people in the church of today do not have hearts that are sold out to do God's will whatever that might be?

I mean it would be one thing if Paul's instructions on this were not clear but if I may ask what part of Paul's instructions on head coverings is not clear?

I mean for example that Paul did not explicitly explain WHY it dishonors man for a woman not to wear a head covering but that it dishonors the man as her head of authority in the church IS clear and that as such a woman should wear a head covering.

Likewise Paul was not explicit in explaining WHY a woman should wear a head covering for the sake of the angels but that it affects the angels and that it would affect them in a negative way IS clear and that as such a woman should wear a head covering IS what ought to be done by sisters in the Lord.

So yes...there are some things in Paul's teaching that are not explicitly clear. But what IS clear ought to be followed as the commands of the Lord! No more and no less than any other biblical commands for how we ought to conduct ourselves in the Body of Christ.

There is NO acceptable denial of Paul's instructions as a matter of conscience. That is just another excuse for disobedience and for not putting our foot down and stating clearly that God's instructions through Paul are to be followed!

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

Grace and peace my brother.
Well, you have stated where you are, and I totally understand you.
These are why we have denominations today, because people follow this part of the doctrine, that disciple, and this prophet.

Funny though, when JESUS says in MARK 12:29-21 that there are no greater commandments than these.
Then that is over any other law written.

Paul's laws and other laws were written because of disobedience/sin.

If we were to obey the original law of GOD given to Adam and Eve, we don't need the laws.

This is what JESUS explained to those about the Sabbath, divorce, and various traditions; which is summed up in MARK 12:29-31.
Because that is the only true law.

Yet, everyone isin a process to get to these commandments written in MARK 12:29-31.

This is not my interpretation.
These are the words of JESUS CHRIST in MARK 12:29-31.


I remember when I was similar to you in the way you're thinking.
Yet after I read the full word ( bible ) cover to cover with too many notes to cross reference, then JESUS love in my heart made too much sense.

MARK 12:29-31 is all we need.

Yet, the BIBLE is a book of the heart.
Depending where a heart is, then that's what they will see.

So, they will see what they will see.
Some think in the BIBLE we are supposed to do many things that CHRIST said not to do.
But when CHRIST is mentioned peoples' tunes change.

If in the passage in Paul's writings in ROMANS you do not see that even Paul says not to praise himself and we should not follow all he does, but to follow CHRIST. If you are not allowed to see this now, then it's not that time for you.

It's like trying to tell a Japanese person to speak portuguese right now without any lesson. U
nless GOD wants it, then that person will not speak Portuguese in that moment.


Much love to you in JESUS HOLY and PRECIOUS NAME!!

 

[lawrenceb]

Carlos, there is much scriptural proof that a woman is required to have a cover i.e. to have power over her head. Before we proceed further, are you aware of the biblical Nephilim account? Are you aware that the Corinthians passage also references a woman's covering in connection with the Nephilim?

 

[Carlos]

Hi Bro (referring to the one who calls himself Lord Jesus Christ)...

I am not entirely sure what it is that you are trying to say bro but it sounds like you are saying something to the affect that we can ignore what Paul clearly commanded about head coverings as something we are to DO. If that is indeed your position may I say that you are very, very mistaken if not deceived.

Short of there being a scriptural reason to allow us to ignore what God inspired Paul to say we are simply disobedient and deceived if we think we can just ignore what God said in 1 Corinthians 11.

Carlos

 

[Carlos]

I see no connection at all, at least in the text of 1 Corinthians 11, with Nephilim anything Lawrence but I assume you are going to fill me in on the connection that you apparently think is there.

I await your further input.

Carlos

 

[lordjesuschrist]

Carlos,

Grace and peace to you.
I understand you and leave you to what you believe.

May HIS grace be upon you, may HIS wisdom constantly grow within you, and my HIS love encompass your being.


AGAPE

 

[amadeus2]

So people are ignoring what you see as something which should not be ignored. Maybe this gives you a clue as what Jesus felt when in the end of the matter, even though some of those against Him clearly said, 'Man never sapke like this man', most people did not become ardent followers of God. They continued rather along the "wide way". Then again we understand in part here why Jesus wept.