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Was the tree in Eden evil?

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Why was there this tree in the middle of the garden. Was it evil or a bad thing? Is God bad for putting it there to tempt Adam and Eve? Is knowledge of good and evil a bad thing?

I have some thoughts but would like to here from you guys first.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts
Pedro
 
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GOD does NOT tempt us but delivers us from the temptations. satan is the tempter, father of lies. GOD is a GOD of mercy, love, understanding, patience, faithful and gentle.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

God gave the freedom to both Adam and Eve to choose right or wrong. They chose to rebel against GOD and disobey His command to not eat from the tree.

Here's a modern day example. There are drugs around us. Let's say opium. Opium is a natural plant. Does it make it ok to inject this garbage into our bodies just because the plant created from GOD is there in the fields? Not quite at all.

Galatians 5:16
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
 
Member
Well! Stated Chad.

Well! Stated Chad.

We are free to choose between God and anything else, I suggest we all choose GOD.


Chad said:
GOD does NOT tempt us but delivers us from the temptations. satan is the tempter, father of lies. GOD is a GOD of mercy, love, understanding, patience, faithful and gentle.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

God gave the freedom to both Adam and Eve to choose right or wrong. They chose to rebel against GOD and disobey His command to not eat from the tree.

Here's a modern day example. There are drugs around us. Let's say opium. Opium is a natural plant. Does it make it ok to inject this garbage into our bodies just because the plant created from GOD is there in the fields? Not quite at all.

Galatians 5:16
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
 
Member
knowledge = opium???

Chad said:
GOD does NOT tempt us but delivers us from the temptations. satan is the tempter, father of lies. GOD is a GOD of mercy, love, understanding, patience, faithful and gentle.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

God gave the freedom to both Adam and Eve to choose right or wrong. They chose to rebel against GOD and disobey His command to not eat from the tree.
I don't think God was tempting them. His warning was real.

Here's a modern day example. There are drugs around us. Let's say opium. Opium is a natural plant. Does it make it ok to inject this garbage into our bodies just because the plant created from GOD is there in the fields? Not quite at all.
The problem here is that you are likening "knowledge" the bad effects of taking opium.

Jesus says, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!"
I think God wants us to be wise, or have knowledge and use it correctly. The problem is that they doubted the character of God and gained that knowledge in a way that was not in their best interest. The violated their relationship with God by their disobedience.

Question - Did they have to eat of the tree to understand what good and evil is. Do we have to experience evil to understand its horrible effects.

I think God might have let Adam and Eve "eat" of the tree, but in a loving time and in a loving amount, when they were ready to handle that information.

P.S. - Opium is not bad in itself. It has been used for medicinal purposes, however with knowledge used in an unwise and unloving way it is used for corruption.
 
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Pedronewt said:
I think God might have let Adam and Eve "eat" of the tree, but in a loving time and in a loving amount, when they were ready to handle that information.
That is incorrect. GOD made it clear before and after what NOT to do and what wrong has been done. The whole things boils down to what gave them both, freedom to choose right or wrong. Simple as that.

Genesis 3:14-24

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living. 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
 
Member
Whoa! easy there!

Think of it like this,

I warn and scold and promise my children that immense pain and suffering will come from touching the burner on the stove. Does this mean they should never use the stove. No. Now while this is true when they are toddlers, because of a lack of understanding and ability to use the stove correctly, I forbid them to even touch it, for their saftey. However when they are grown, it would be little them to treat them in this manner. I would then teach them how to correctly use the stove.

I think this was a chance for them to get a miner lesson in the knowledge of something good - obedience. Satan, who comes to steal kill and destroy meant to use it for their harm. There are natural, spiritual, and relational consequences to our every action, some good and some bad. God would use these consequences to disciple uson how to live correctly.

I don't think that God removing Adam and Eve from the garden was a punishment at all but maybe an act of love. Think of the consequences had God left them there to further harm themselves by eating of the tree of life.
 
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If you want to be rude with me let me know right now. Otherwise keep your silence and watch your tone understood?

I gave you Scripture plain and simple. GOD spoke, GOD said and says, and GOD is right. It does not go by your theories of what "might" be or not be.
 
Member
Like I said, "Easy there Chad." I'm not trying to be rude or disagreeable. I am not saying that God tempted them or that He is wrong or at fault in any way. In fact I am trying to present a case for the opposite. I don't deny that Adam and Eve, of free will, disobeyed God. I am just trying to point out that I think that problem was not with the tree, but with the act of disobedience brought about by a lie which produced an illogical distrust in the character of God.
Your first scriptures do not contradict anything I have proposed, or at least I fail to see how they do. I up hold your reference to James - God is blameless, and in Galations - had Adam and Eve live according to how they knew God to be and did not doubt, they would have trusted Him and made the right choice.
Your later references talk about what happened when they disobeyed.

However neither of these points address the nature of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created the earth and everything in it, He said it was good when done. If everything is good then this applies to the tree of knowledge, which i think most people in the world would believe to be an evil thing. Knowledge is good. God always connect truth (correct knowledge) with light. The knowledge of right and wrong, of good things and evil things is a good thing to know. We should know what is right and good for us to do, as well and what is bad and evil. And why they are such. God wants us to be smart and make educated decisions as we go through life, but for our welfare God and my parents sheltered me from certain things because bennifit of knowing them would be more damaging to my innocence, intelect, person than the rewards of that knowledge at that time. It would be wrong to subject me to the evils of the world at such an early age, however I will someday need to know how to make wise choice when presented with different opportunitites.

If you think what i have said disagrees with scripture, please point it out. I like the discussion. The focus was supposed to be about the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Peace in Christ Jesus
Brady
 
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Staff Member
Matthew Henry's Classic Commentary:

Genesis 2 Verses 8-14

The place fixed upon for Adam to dwell in, was not a palace, but a garden. The better we take up with plain things, and the less we seek things to gratify pride and luxury, the nearer we approach to innocency. Nature is content with a little, and that which is most natural; grace with less; but lust craves every thing, and is content with nothing.

No delights can be satisfying to the soul, but those which God himself has provided and appointed for it. Eden signifies delight and pleasure. Wherever it was, it had all desirable conveniences, without any inconvenience, though no other house or garden on earth ever was so. It was adorned with every tree pleasant to the sight, and enriched with every tree that yielded fruit grateful to the taste and good for food.

God, as a tender Father, desired not only Adam's profit, but his pleasure; for there is pleasure with innocency, nay there is true pleasure only in innocency. When Providence puts us in a place of plenty and pleasure, we ought to serve God with gladness of heart in the good things he gives us. Eden had two trees peculiar to itself.

1. There was the tree of life in the midst of the garden. Of this man might eat and live. Christ is now to us the Tree of life, 22:2; and the Bread of life, #Joh 6:48,51.

2. There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so called because there was a positive revelation of the will of God about this tree, so that by it man might know moral good and evil. What is good? It is good not to eat of this tree. What is evil? It is evil to eat of this tree. In these two trees God set before Adam good and evil, the blessing and the curse.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:

Let us never set up our own will against the holy will of God. There was not only liberty allowed to man, in taking the fruits of paradise, but everlasting life made sure to him upon his obedience. There was a trial appointed of his obedience. By transgression he would forfeit his Maker's favour, and deserve his displeasure, with all its awful effects; so that he would become liable to pain, disease, and death.

Worse than that, he would lose the holy image of God, and all the comfort of his favour; and feel the torment of sinful passions, and the terror of his Maker's vengeance, which must endure for ever with his never dying soul. The forbidding to eat of the fruit of a particular tree was wisely suited to the state of our first parents. In their state of innocence, and separated from any others, what opportunity or what temptation had they to break any of the ten commandments?

The event proves that the whole human race were concerned in the trial and fall of our first parents. To argue against these things is to strive against stubborn facts, as well as Divine revelation; for man is sinful, and shows by his first actions, and his conduct ever afterwards, that he is ready to do evil. He is under the Divine displeasure, exposed to sufferings and death. The Scriptures always speak of man as of this sinful character, and in this miserable state; and these things are true of men in all ages, and of all nations. (Ge 2:18-25)
 
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One of the beautiful things of being God is to always know why. One of the beautiful things of being human is to be able to reason together and come to the truth of God. Everything God does he has already worked out before he puts it into place. That is why after the creation he could say, "it is good." It was not good because things just happened to come out right. It was good because that is the way he wanted things to be. God was satisfied what he saw in his heart he had produced with his hands. So it was good.

In Genesis 1:28 God told the man and woman to multiply and replenish the earth. When it is read as it is written, you will find God wanted them to subdue the whole world, not just the garden. As told in Genesis 2:1-3, God had finished his creations, all things were as he wanted them. It was time for man to began creating. Man did not have the power of God to create with his words alone. Man could not add anything to the garden because God had already said it was good. So in order for man to multiply and replenish as God told them to do, they must leave the garden.

Man likes to say if plan "A" fails, there's always plan "B". Why not look at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as God's plan "B"

Who wants to leave a palace and live in a hut. Adam and Eve had a choice, obey God and go multiply or walk around the garden looking at the sights. If they would have obeyed God in Genesis 1:28 the world would be full of children without sin, since they had not ate from the tree yet. But because they would not obey the first command from God and hung around the garden to long, the tree of knowledge steps in trying to turn them against God. Now they know that 1+1=3 and end up doing what God told them to do in the first place.

Let us not think for one second that God did not know what would happen. It may seem wrong to humanity, but God knows the reason why. That is why so much of our walk must be in faith. Hebrews chapter 11.

We can"t choose which commands of God to obey, we must obey them all. If Adam and Eve would have obeyed both of Gods commands the knowledge of good and evil would have been left in the center of the garden.

May God bless you Pedronewt and increase your knowledge and understanding. You said you have more on this subject, I would love to hear it.

Jesus is Lord
Jonn
 
Member
God had a plan to fullfill that plan He had to take certain "ordered" steps. One of the steps
was to place the tree of knowledge in the garden. When people try to "reach a goal" they take "forward steps" to get from one point to another but God sees the end of the matter from the beginning so the steps He took were from the end He desired backwards to the beginning so that His plan could not fail.
Why the "tree" didn't God say why himself ? "behold man has become as us...." you see
it was always God's plan to have children of His own not "servants" as He can create as many servants as He has need of but His children follow Him for the love of Him not out of need or fear as a servant does.
 
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I had not looked at it from that angle, thanks buzboodro, what you say has the ring of truth. May God bless you. It gives me a reson to ponder even more the wisdom contained in the written word of God.

Jesus is Lord
John
 
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Wow! I love the bible. Every time you read it you get something new. If we can just be happy where God places us and be happy with what God wants us to have, instead of always wanting other stuff, we will be happier. I always got the don't sin stuff (don't eat the forbidden fruit), but not the happiness part. What a great thread. I always wondered why God put the tree there. I guess knowing man, he knew we'd do something stupid, and now we get 2 lessons from it.
 
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God Did Not Create Evil

Pedronewt said:
Like I said, "Easy there Chad." I'm not trying to be rude or disagreeable. I am not saying that God tempted them or that He is wrong or at fault in any way. In fact I am trying to present a case for the opposite. I don't deny that Adam and Eve, of free will, disobeyed God. I am just trying to point out that I think that problem was not with the tree, but with the act of disobedience brought about by a lie which produced an illogical distrust in the character of God.
Your first scriptures do not contradict anything I have proposed, or at least I fail to see how they do. I up hold your reference to James - God is blameless, and in Galations - had Adam and Eve live according to how they knew God to be and did not doubt, they would have trusted Him and made the right choice.
Your later references talk about what happened when they disobeyed.

However neither of these points address the nature of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created the earth and everything in it, He said it was good when done. If everything is good then this applies to the tree of knowledge, which i think most people in the world would believe to be an evil thing. Knowledge is good. God always connect truth (correct knowledge) with light. And why they are such. God wants us to be smart and make educated decisThe knowledge of right and wrong, of good things and evil things is a good thing to know. We should know what is right and good for us to do, as well and what is bad and evil.ions as we go through life, but for our welfare God and my parents sheltered me from certain things because bennifit of knowing them would be more damaging to my innocence, intelect, person than the rewards of that knowledge at that time. It would be wrong to subject me to the evils of the world at such an early age, however I will someday need to know how to make wise choice when presented with different opportunitites.

If you think what i have said disagrees with scripture, please point it out. I like the discussion. The focus was supposed to be about the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Peace in Christ Jesus
Brady
The tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, was not of itself evil.

To eat of the tree was an act of disobedience.

THE ACT ITSELF, BECAME EVIL, AS THEY CALLED GOD A LIAR, AND CALLED THE DEVIL'S LIE THE TRUTH.

GOD did not create sin or evil "things". THE TREE WAS NOT EVIL.

Evil and sin did not exist until there was doubt and disobedeince and rebellion against GOD'S WORD AND HIS WILL.

GOD created ALL in perfection and holiness.

When the devil and his followers rebelled >>> SIN AND EVIL CAME INTO BEING BY THIS ACT OF REBELLION.

Sin and evil are not things >>> they are conditions of rebellion against GOD'S perfect will.

repeat >>> SIN AND EVIL ARE NOT THINGS THAT WERE CREATED BY GOD >>>>

THEY ARE CONDITIONS OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD'S PERFECT WILL.

I
f everything is good then this applies to the tree of knowledge, which i think most people in the world would believe to be an evil thing. Knowledge is good. God always connect truth (correct knowledge) with light. And why they are such. God wants us to be smart and make educated decisThe knowledge of right and wrong, of good things and evil things is a good thing to know. We should know what is right and good for us to do, as well and what is bad and evil.ions as we go through life, but for our welfare God and my parents sheltered me from certain things because bennifit of knowing them would be more damaging to my innocence, intelect, person than the rewards of that knowledge at that time. It would be wrong to subject me to the evils of the world at such an early age, however I will someday need to know how to make wise choice when presented with different opportunitites.
If GOD said to NOT EAT FROM IT, and if they did THEY WOULD SURELY DIE, he never intended for them to eat from it or to know of it. Your above quoted statement GOES COUNTER TO GOD'S WRITTEN WORD.

HE NEVER INTENDED FOR THEM TO KNOW .

Their act was an act of rebellion, believing a liar, and calling GOD a liar.

Thusly sin is born, by selfish acts of the will of the created man, counter to the perfect will of GOD.

SIN AND EVIL ARE NOT THINGS >>>> THEY ARE ACTS OF DISOBEDIENCE OF DOUBT AND GREED >>> BORN OF SELFISHNESS.

The root of all sin is selfishness, that which is counter to GOD'S perfect will.

If you think that I am being overly emphatic, I DO NOT TAKE KINDLY TO THE WARPING OF GOD'S WORD.

David Haynes :lightning
 
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WOW....all this talk about sin and evil and "warping God's word" ...let's back up and regroup there Dave . First of all Adam and Eve had no knowledge of what a "lie" was before eating the fruit of the tree so how can they be accused of sinning ? Now Eve after
eating it could be as her eyes were opened when she gave it to Adam. Sin and evil was not the cause of them being evicted from the garden anyway "now lest they take from the tree of life and live..." that was the reason. God's not sitting back with a hammer waiting to "whack" people that mess up so why should we ?
 
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Dave777 said:
If GOD said to NOT EAT FROM IT, and if they did THEY WOULD SURELY DIE, he never intended for them to eat from it or to know of it.

HE NEVER INTENDED FOR THEM TO KNOW .
If He never intended for them to know, then why was the tree there? I don't think this is "twisting" scripture, I feel it is a valid question that is not often asked.

I would also ask this question. Is it loving to keep people in ignorance? Also, without an opportunity to do choose otherwise, How does God truly know that Adam and Eve love Him? Maybe He was testing their character? I don't know, I am just presenting questions.
 
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GOD knows all things. There is nothing that GOD does not know about anyone or anything. All is created by GOD except sin itself. Through our obedience to GOD we show our love towards GOD.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says— he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other

Revelation 4:11
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
 
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Quote Me Scripture To Support Your Argument

buzzboodro said:
WOW....all this talk about sin and evil and "warping God's word" ...let's back up and regroup there Dave . First of all Adam and Eve had no knowledge of what a "lie" was before eating the fruit of the tree so how can they be accused of sinning ? Now Eve after
eating it could be as her eyes were opened when she gave it to Adam. Sin and evil was not the cause of them being evicted from the garden anyway "now lest they take from the tree of life and live..." that was the reason. God's not sitting back with a hammer waiting to "whack" people that mess up so why should we ?
The very fact that Adam and Eve ate from the only tree in the garden, of which they were forbidden, states that they believed the devil and DID NOT BELIEVE GOD.

This action, in itself , calls GOD a liar, as they did what they were WARNED AGAINST, IN BELIEVING A LIAR.

They doubted GOD, and disbelieved that THEY WOULD SURELY DIE.

Here is some scripture which supports my statements.

>>> ROMANS 5

1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2. through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4. and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5. and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE

>>>>

Verses 12 and 15 OBVIOUSLY speak of ADAM, the first man >>> through
whose disobedience sin entered into the world, and alll people there after were cursed.

This SCRIPTURE (not my opinion), negates and makes a lie out of your statements. Sin and evil were EXACTLY the cause of their eviction from the garden. They had disobeyed GOD and were now able to usurp HIS AUTHORITY AND DOMINION and live by the taking of the tree, from which they were forbidden to eat.

Your words say that GOD is mean and wanted to withhold from them life.

GOD HAD TO KEEP HIS WORD >>> THEY MUST SURELY DIE, JUST AS HE SAID, THEREFORE THEY WERE CUT OFF FROM THE TREE AND THE GARDEN, JUST AS HE SAID.

Where is your scripture FROM THE HOLY WORD OF GOD, and not just "your opinion".?

Your "opinion" calls scripture false and "your opinion" true.

The Lord God kept HIS WORD and they were cast out of the garden.

GOD'S WORD IS JUST AND TRUE.

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

Matthew Henry's Commentary

Romans 5:12-14
The design of what follows is plain. It is to exalt our views respecting the blessings Christ has procured for us, by comparing them with the evil which followed upon the fall of our first father; and by showing that these blessings not only extend to the removal of these evils, but far beyond. Adam sinning, his nature became guilty and corrupted, and so came to his children. Thus in him all have sinned. And death is by sin; for death is the wages of sin. Then entered all that misery which is the due desert of sin; temporal, spiritual, eternal death. If Adam had not sinned, he had not died; but a sentence of death was passed, as upon a criminal; it passed through all men, as an infectious disease that none escape. In proof of our union with Adam, and our part in his first transgression, observe, that sin prevailed in the world, for many ages before the giving of the law by Moses. And death reigned in that long time, not only over adults who wilfully sinned, but also over multitudes of infants, which shows that they had fallen in Adam under condemnation, and that the sin of Adam extended to all his posterity. He was a figure or type of Him that was to come as Surety of a new covenant, for all who are related to Him.

>>>> end


I want to hear you PRAISE GOD and give HONOR and GLORY to JESUS CHRIST our SAVIOR.

Thank you JESUS, my Savior for YOUR GREAT Sacrifice and your atonement for me , that you died and arose , that all might be saved, if they truly believe on/in YOU.

(show me scripture >>> book, chapter, verse)

David Haynes :lightning
 
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In order to prove their obedience.

Pedronewt said:
If He never intended for them to know, then why was the tree there? I don't think this is "twisting" scripture, I feel it is a valid question that is not often asked.

I would also ask this question. Is it loving to keep people in ignorance? Also, without an opportunity to do choose otherwise, How does God truly know that Adam and Eve love Him? Maybe He was testing their character? I don't know, I am just presenting questions.
Your words dishonor GOD and HIS total love for us.

GOD'S LOVE IS PROVED THROUGH THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS.

(what more is needed?)

The tree was there in order to prove their obedience and love towards GOD.

Without the chance to disobey, then Adam and Eve could not sin, and could not prove their loyalty to GOD.

Without the chance to disobey, they were mere robots and puppets of GOD.

Your "questions" dishonor GOD and HIS motives.

What say you about JESUS?

David Haynes :lightning
 

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