Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Beetow]

● Jonah 1:17 . .The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.

I sincerely believe that any examination of the Bible's information related to life after death-- e.g. Abraham and Lazarus --requires including the prophet Jonah seeing as how Christ's afterlife experience is relative to his.

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

A: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

A: No; and in point of fact; unless Jonah was deceased at some point, then his adventure would relate very little of any real significance to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

FAQ: So you think Jonah died in the fish?

A: Jonah 2:5-7 strongly suggests that he drowned prior to being swallowed by the big fish; which fits perfectly with the fact that Jesus was dead before his body was entombed; viz: neither man was buried alive.

At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no; they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways. This is not impossible because according to Matt 10:28 people's souls don't always die along with their body.

And then there's Jesus . . .

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the Earth while simultaneously in the heart of the Earth; was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Now according to Matt 10:28, Jesus' soul didn't cease to exist when he passed away on the cross. In point of fact, his soul went to a place called hades, which is the Greek equivalent of sheol. (Acts 2:27 and Ps 16:10)

So then, if sheol and hades are the same place, then when Jesus passed away on the cross his soul went down to the roots of the mountains the same as Jonah's did when he passed away.

» According to Luke 16:23-26 and Luke 23:43, hades isn't only a place of suffering, but also a place of comfort. This may not jibe with modern thinking, but according to the thinking in Jesus' day, hades was an afterlife where all the dead went regardless of age, race, gender and/or religious preference: the young and the old, the good and the bad, the pious and the impious. So Abraham and Lazarus were in hades too; although their side of it was far more tolerable than the rich man's.
_

 

[Butch5]

● Jonah 1:17 . .The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.

I sincerely believe that any examination of the Bible's information related to life after death-- e.g. Abraham and Lazarus --requires including the prophet Jonah seeing as how Christ's afterlife experience is relative to his.

FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

A: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

A: No; and in point of fact; unless Jonah was deceased at some point, then his adventure would relate very little of any real significance to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

FAQ: So you think Jonah died in the fish?

A: Jonah 2:5-7 strongly suggests that he drowned prior to being swallowed by the big fish; which fits perfectly with the fact that Jesus was dead before his body was entombed; viz: neither man was buried alive.

At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no; they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots of the mountains while simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways. This is not impossible because according to Matt 10:28 people's souls don't always die along with their body.

And then there's Jesus . . .

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the Earth while simultaneously in the heart of the Earth; was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Now according to Matt 10:28, Jesus' soul didn't cease to exist when he passed away on the cross. In point of fact, his soul went to a place called hades, which is the Greek equivalent of sheol. (Acts 2:27 and Ps 16:10)

So then, if sheol and hades are the same place, then when Jesus passed away on the cross his soul went down to the roots of the mountains the same as Jonah's did when he passed away.
_

There's a problem with this analysis. It runs contrary to Scripture. "The Man" consists of the elements of the earth. He is the body.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

 

[Beetow]

● Luke 16:24-26 . . Abraham said: Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

The Greek word for "great chasm" refers to a nondescript space, viz: a gap, without really specifying width, depth, or design. The distance across can't be too much otherwise Abraham and the rich man would've had trouble hearing and understanding one another's speech. Apparently translators assumed the gap was large so they added the word "great". It seems far more likely to me that the chasm Abraham spoke of is a sort of crevasse just wide enough to prevent pedestrian traffic and deep enough to discourage attempts.

Anyway, point being: I'm heaven-bound; but I'm not so sure about many of my friends, relatives, and associates. If they fail to make the cut, I'm crossing my fingers that there will be some way that I can contact them in the afterlife after we've all passed on. It disturbs me to think there's a possibility I might not be allowed to see any of them ever again until the day of our final good-byes during the event planned for Rev 20:11-15.
_

 

[Butch5]

● Luke 16:24-26 . . Abraham said: Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

The Greek word for "great chasm" refers to a nondescript space, viz: a gap, without really specifying width, depth, or design. The distance across can't be too much otherwise Abraham and the rich man would've had trouble hearing and understanding one another's speech. Apparently translators assumed the gap was large so they added the word "great". It seems far more likely to me that the chasm Abraham spoke of is a sort of crevasse just wide enough to prevent pedestrian traffic and deep enough to discourage attempts.

Anyway, point being: I'm heaven-bound; but I'm not so sure about many of my friends, relatives, and associates. If they fail to make the cut, I'm crossing my fingers that there will be some way that I can contact them in the afterlife after we've all passed on. It disturbs me to think there's a possibility I might not be allowed to see any of them ever again until the day of our final good-byes during the event planned for Rev 20:11-15.
_

I would suggest that this passage isn't even about an afterlife. That's why it's important we take care of those people while alive. What I find in Scripture is that when man dies he is dead until the Resurrection.

 

[Beetow]

● Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

I should think that one of the negative aspects of the fiery sector of Hades is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people in Hades not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in Hades; and never once ventured out; that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would certainly hold true.
_

 

[Butch5]

● Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

I should think that one of the negative aspects of the fiery sector of Hades is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people in Hades not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in Hades; and never once ventured out; that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would certainly hold true.
_

That's another reason we know it's a parable. If the brain is dead there are no memories. Without the body there is no thirst.

 

[Sue D.]

No -- it's the reason that You think it's a parable. Others of us know differently.

 

[Beetow]

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that particular parable was fantasy; but not one of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Christ's parables. At best; they qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of character for Christ-- the Logos: the voice of God --who went about advertising "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
_

 

[Beetow]

If the brain is dead there are no memories.

In the world of computer programming, there are a number of file transfer protocols in common use.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that God has similar protocols for transferring the data from minds in this life to minds in the next.

This is at least one of the reasons why I don't recommend suicide to escape emotional travail because whatever it is that's bothering people in this life, they pick up right where they left off on the other side.

» I find it extremely interesting that the rich man was suffering anxiety over the possibility of his kin following him right down to where he was. (I use past tense grammar because by now they've joined him.)
_

 

[Butch5]

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that particular parable was fantasy; but not one of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Christ's parables. At best; they qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of character for Christ-- the Logos: the voice of God --who went about advertising "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
_

But the parable wasn't spoken to the disciples. It was spoken the Pharisees. Jesus wasn't teaching the Pharisees. Just like the parable of the vine dresser. The leaders perceived that Jesus was speaking of them. In the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man Jesus was speaking of them too. That's why we see the details in the parable. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. He had five brothers etc. Do you believe jesus was just making up details or were they important details to understanding the parable?

Who wore purple and fine linen? Who had five brothers?

 

[Butch5]

No -- it's the reason that You think it's a parable. Others of us know differently.

You mean think differently.

 

[Beetow]

● Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son

Abraham produced progeny by a number of women: Hagar, Sarah, and Keturah, along with a number of nondescript concubines. But seeing as how Abraham directed this son to listen to Moses and the prophets; then I'm of the opinion that his son in this narrative is a Jew traceable back down the line to Sarah via Isaac and Jacob.

I don't expect the event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 to be pleasant. Parents will have to watch as their children become literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic, desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love. But let me tell you something: love is inconvenient. A sensitive parent cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it.

I was asked once by a skeptic how I could possibly be happy in heaven knowing that members of my family circle are forever lost; suffering in hell. I grant it will be difficult to bear at first, the grief will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get parents over it.

● Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
_

 

[Brother Paul]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Is it your position that the story isn't a parable?

The story is NOT a parable. The "paradise" Jesus referred to was Sheol/Hades the place where those went after the 1st death (separation of the soul or spirit man from the body) awaiting judgment (see Lazarus and the Rich man parable). After the resurrection Jesus led captivity captive and all the righteous dead (the people of faith) went with Him to the heavenly realm to be in the presence of God (see Revelations 7). The only people remaining there or going there now are those who will experience the 2nd death (eternal separation from God and all He would have provided). The faithful can trust in being absent from the body as being present with the Lord (part of the great uncountable multitude of every nation and tongue).

 

[Dave M]

You mean think differently.

nope the Holly spirit teaches and we know by revelation, you seem to rely on man logic, does not work for the bible, how can even have faith if you rely on mans logic ?? faith makes not sense to mans logic,,,,,,,,,, Gods way make no sense to mans logic

 

[Butch5]

nope the Holly spirit teaches and we know by revelation, you seem to rely on man logic, does not work for the bible, how can even have faith if you rely on mans logic ?? faith makes not sense to mans logic,,,,,,,,,, Gods way make no sense to mans logic

No offense, but that's nonsense. There is no such thing as man's logic. Logic was created by God. Logic dictates that a glass can't be both full and empty at the same time. The reason a glass can't be both full and empty at the same time is because of the way God created things. Logic is "Proper Reasoning". If one rejects logic they reject proper reasoning and rationality. In other words they're irrational.

God even said to the Israelites,

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isa. 1:18 KJV)

So, the Lord calls on people reason logically. The apostles used logic. Paul lays out logical arguments in his letters. He doesn't say "just believe".

An inability to reason properly is one of the reasons we have so many different sect and denominations with Christianity. People who cant't reason properly read the Scriptures and draw incorrect conclusions because they're not reasoning properly and before you know it they're spouting it to others.

If you know by revelation why do you have wrong doctrine?

 

[Sue D.]

@Butch5 -- But of course a glass can be half full / half empty at the same time. It's totally Perspective.

Okay -- you tell me what is Logical about the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ. Logically speaking / Biologically speaking -- a virgin is a woman who has never had sex. It's Not logical that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived Jesus Christ.
So - logically speaking Mary could not have gotten pregnant and given birth to Jesus Christ.

The incarnation is not logical. God being with us in the form of Man -- Jesus Christ -- not logical -- but it did take place.

 

[Butch5]

The story is NOT a parable. The "paradise" Jesus referred to was Sheol/Hades the place where those went after the 1st death (separation of the soul or spirit man from the body) awaiting judgment (see Lazarus and the Rich man parable). After the resurrection Jesus led captivity captive and all the righteous dead (the people of faith) went with Him to the heavenly realm to be in the presence of God (see Revelations 7). The only people remaining there or going there now are those who will experience the 2nd death (eternal separation from God and all He would have provided). The faithful can trust in being absent from the body as being present with the Lord (part of the great uncountable multitude of every nation and tongue).

I'm sorry Brother Paul, but you won't find that taught in Scripture. There is nothing in the Bible about there being a paradise in Hades. The passage from Ephesians says that Jesus lead captivity captive. It doesn't say He lead captives captive. The passage is about Jesus' conquest over the devil. The devil no longer held man captive. The statement from 2 Cor. 5 is misquoted. It doesn't say to be absent from the body "is" to be present with the Lord. Paul is stating his desire.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 KJV)

In context this passage is referring to the Resurrection, not a disembodied state. This passage actually refutes the idea of a disembodied existence. Let's look at the context.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Paul writes of an earthly house and a building of God. Two concepts here, one perishable and one imperishable. In verse two he writes of a desire to be clothed upon with the house from heaven. but notice verse 3, He says, "if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked". Paul doesn't want to be found naked. Then notice verse 4, "not that we would be unclothed", unclothed is without a body. That was the Greek hope. Paul doesn't want that. He wants to be clothed upon, or overclothed. The word means to put on over, like one would put on a coat over their clothes. What is this "clothed upon"? He says that mortality might be swallowed up of life. In other words, he doesn't want to leave his body, he wants his imperishable one to be put on over his perishable one. Paul states expressly that he is not looking to leave his body, thus to claim that is what verse 8 is talking about rips the verse from it's context and imposes a completely foreign concept onto the verse.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. Dead people can't speak.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 -- But of course a glass can be half full / half empty at the same time. It's totally Perspective.

Okay -- you tell me what is Logical about the Virgin birth of Jesus Christ. Logically speaking / Biologically speaking -- a virgin is a woman who has never had sex. It's Not logical that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she conceived Jesus Christ.
So - logically speaking Mary could not have gotten pregnant and given birth to Jesus Christ.

The incarnation is not logical. God being with us in the form of Man -- Jesus Christ -- not logical -- but it did take place.

Are you trying to prove God wrong? As I pointed out God created logic not man. If one defies logic they defy rational. Miracles don't defy logic. It's perfectly logical that an all powerful God could impregnate a women. It would be illogical if we said she was impregnated by a man. That would be illogical. However, it is not illogical to say a God who created man from the dust of the earth could do the same in a woman's womb.

 

[Dave M]

If you know by revelation why do you have wrong doctrine?

blesss you in the name of Jesus

 

[Butch5]

● Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son

Abraham produced progeny by a number of women: Hagar, Sarah, and Keturah, along with a number of nondescript concubines. But seeing as how Abraham directed this son to listen to Moses and the prophets; then I'm of the opinion that his son in this narrative is a Jew traceable back down the line to Sarah via Isaac and Jacob.

I don't expect the event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 to be pleasant. Parents will have to watch as their children become literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic, desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love. But let me tell you something: love is inconvenient. A sensitive parent cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it.

I was asked once by a skeptic how I could possibly be happy in heaven knowing that members of my family circle are forever lost; suffering in hell. I grant it will be difficult to bear at first, the grief will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get parents over it.

● Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
_

People won't suffer for eternity in hell so that's not a worry. I don't know that parents will see the scene you described. I don't believe you know that either. I guess it's possible but we're not really told.

But, you didn't answer my questions. Who wore purple and fine linen? Who had five brothers?