Was the thief in Paradise "that day"?

[Butch5]

This thread comes out of anther and is addressing the translators placement of the comma in Luke 23:43.

However, there is also a grammatical argument. In the original text there is no punctuation. That has been added by the translators and placed where they think it should be. We have to remember though that where they think it should go is based on what the believe. Most place the comma before the word today as we see here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

However, the comma can also, be placed after the word today, as we have here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

As you can see, simply moving the comma from before to after the word today changes the entire meaning of the sentence. We go from them being in Paradise that day to them simply being in Paradise at some point in time. There is also the context of the statement consider. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. In reply Jesus spoke of Paradise. Many claim that Paradise is a place in or associated with Hades where the dead go. Is Jesus' Kingdom in Hades? There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that. The word Paradise has been transliterated rather than translated. It literally means a garden. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in the Garden. What garden would be associated with Jesus' Kingdom? I would submit that it is the one mentioned in Revelation.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

I would submit that it is the restored Garden of Eden.

The grammatical argument shows that the translation is driven by beliefs. The comma can be placed either before or after the word today, each one is grammatically correct. So, the translation comes down to what the translator believes. There's also an argument for the way Jesus uses the term in other places, that however, would entail more time to go through. If you are interested I can get that info.

 

[Dave M]

so what your suggesting is God is not in control man is.. God can certainly make sure the comma is where its supposed to be, is he not the Arthur of scripture

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

 

[Br. Bear]

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation;
Psalm 106:4

Let us look a little closer at the passage being discussed ==>

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with Him (Jesus) to be put to death.
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted His raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided Him, saying, He saved others; let Him save Himself, if He be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming to Him, and offering Him vinegar, and saying, If Thou be the king of the Jews, save Thyself. And a superscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Him, saying, If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. And all His acquaintance, and the women that followed Him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
Luke 23:32-49


What day was Jesus referring to when He spoke to the thief on the cross?
And what is [and was and always will be] the significance of this day?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Trevor]

This thread comes out of anther and is addressing the translators placement of the comma in Luke 23:43.

However, there is also a grammatical argument. In the original text there is no punctuation. That has been added by the translators and placed where they think it should be. We have to remember though that where they think it should go is based on what the believe. Most place the comma before the word today as we see here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

However, the comma can also, be placed after the word today, as we have here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

As you can see, simply moving the comma from before to after the word today changes the entire meaning of the sentence. We go from them being in Paradise that day to them simply being in Paradise at some point in time. There is also the context of the statement consider. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. In reply Jesus spoke of Paradise. Many claim that Paradise is a place in or associated with Hades where the dead go. Is Jesus' Kingdom in Hades? There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that. The word Paradise has been transliterated rather than translated. It literally means a garden. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in the Garden. What garden would be associated with Jesus' Kingdom? I would submit that it is the one mentioned in Revelation.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

I would submit that it is the restored Garden of Eden.

The grammatical argument shows that the translation is driven by beliefs. The comma can be placed either before or after the word today, each one is grammatically correct. So, the translation comes down to what the translator believes. There's also an argument for the way Jesus uses the term in other places, that however, would entail more time to go through. If you are interested I can get that info.

Hi Butch,
I would be more inclined to believe that the translator who translated it prayfuly, would, rather than leaning on his own understanding, which he has been advised not to do, follow the leading of the Spirit. To find a comma to argue over, must take a phenomenal amount of time, maybe that time could be spent feeding on the Word and seeing the picture. bless you

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,
I would be more inclined to believe that the translator who translated it prayfuly, would, rather than leaning on his own understanding, which he has been advised not to do, follow the leading of the Spirit. To find a comma to argue over, must take a phenomenal amount of time, maybe that time could be spent feeding on the Word and seeing the picture. bless you

It's feeding on the word that allows one to see these things. If the translator was following the leading of the Spirit, how did he come to a translation that runs contrary to other Scripture? How did he come to a translation that flatly contradicts what the apostle Paul said?

 

[Butch5]

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation;
Psalm 106:4

Let us look a little closer at the passage being discussed ==>

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with Him (Jesus) to be put to death.
And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted His raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided Him, saying, He saved others; let Him save Himself, if He be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming to Him, and offering Him vinegar, and saying, If Thou be the king of the Jews, save Thyself. And a superscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Him, saying, If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. And all His acquaintance, and the women that followed Him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
Luke 23:32-49


What day was Jesus referring to when He spoke to the thief on the cross?
And what is [and was and always will be] the significance of this day?


Bless you ....><>

I believe He was referring to the day they were on the cross.

 

[Trevor]

It's feeding on the word that allows one to see these things. If the translator was following the leading of the Spirit, how did he come to a translation that runs contrary to other Scripture? How did he come to a translation that flatly contradicts what the apostle Paul said?

Your not actually saying that God has allowed a Bible that leads people astray are you?. If you continue telling people they cannot trust the Word of God, where are people to go for the truth Butch , You?

 

[Butch5]

Your not actually saying that God has allowed a Bible that leads people astray are you?. If you continue telling people they cannot trust the Word of God, where are people to go for the truth Butch , You?

People can trust the word of God. What they should check is the translations people make of the word of God. Again, how can a translator who is lead of the Spirit of God come to a translation that counters other passages of Scripture and contradicts the apostle Paul?

It's a dangerous thing when we blindly accept things without questioning them. Even Paul, an apostle of Jesus Himself praised the Bereans for not just accepting his words but rather checking the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. If Paul thought it was a good thing that the Bereans didn't just blindly accept his words don't you think he would feel the same way about us not just blindly accepting translations?

 

[Trevor]

People can trust the word of God. What they should check is the translations people make of the word of God. Again, how can a translator who is lead of the Spirit of God come to a translation that counters other passages of Scripture and contradicts the apostle Paul?

It's a dangerous thing when we blindly accept things without questioning them. Even Paul, an apostle of Jesus Himself praised the Bereans for not just accepting his words but rather checking the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. If Paul thought it was a good thing that the Bereans didn't just blindly accept his words don't you think he would feel the same way about us not just blindly accepting translations?

Bless you Butch.

 

[Br. Bear]

What day was Jesus referring to when He spoke to the thief on the cross?
And what is [and was and always will be] the significance of this day?

I believe He was referring to the day they were on the cross.

And what is [and was and always will be] the significance of this day?

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation;
Psalm 106:4

 

[Butch5]

And what is [and was and always will be] the significance of this day?

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation;
Psalm 106:4

That Christ died that day.

 

[Br. Bear]

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.
Luke 23:40-42

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation; that I may see the good of Thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of Thy nation, that I may glory with Thine inheritance.
We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly.
Psalm 106:4-6

Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto Thy holy name, and to triumph in Thy praise.
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen.
Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 106:47-48

And Jesus said unto him,
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· - and He said unto him
Verily I say unto thee,
Ἀμήν σοι λέγω - Amen to you
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I am not familiar with anywhere that Jesus said something as suggested, ie, amen, amen, to you today
(other renditions are 'truly truly' or 'verily verily' or I tell you a/the truth)
Amen is. Full stop. no today because Amen is and has no time to it.
In other words, while we might get thinking that the wording is wrong, ie, the comma is in the wrong place, to put it after today, would make the words of Jesus not only to be not as He was everywhere else recorded to speak, but also it makes no sense. Imagine it,
When we say that we should not neglect other Scripture, that is true. However, in doing so, diligently (?) we can overlook other aspects of what we do have before us in our looking and reading and hearing. In this case, we do well to see that the word used and recorded as 'Truly' is actually 'amen' and therefore we would have "amen i tell you today' ; rather than amen, i tell you.... or, amen what i say to you, or in other words, I speak the truth and am witness to the truth i speak, amen.

Notice that the Lord spoke His reply to only the one. We have that in the translation, also. I say unto thee. not, I say unto ye.

Concerning the Lord saying to day, or , this day, remember that He was replying directly to the question of the thief, to remember him.

Again i ask, what was 'this day'? Simply another execution day? Yet another boring old crucifixion? Crucifixion was common back then in those necks of the woods.
Do you think that given the request amidst all the mockery and jest, the taunting and outright unbelief, a request by a man who not only realized his guilt but also that he was with a man Who had done no wrong, a man Who was somehow able to remember him.....
The thief's request is glanced over, it seems. by all too many.
Here we have the very Hope of Israel, the Messiah, about to die for the sins of the world, and one man... one solitary thief of a man, asks to be remembered by this other Man Who was, in the thief's mind, while being crucified, entering somewhere more than death, or else, why would one ask a dying man to remember you when they get there?
Is this starting to add up?

You have to ask, why was he wanting to be remembered? To be exacted punishment and ruin? Who was he addressing? What did the Man have and what was this day that he asked Him?

It appears that we can get thinking that nobody had a clue and nobody knew Scripture like we do, so to think the thief, I mean, a thief, what would he know???!!

You will find throughout Scripture plenty much that points exactly to this request and the response.

There is so much more in this little passage that we might get around to.

for now,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

That Christ died that day.

is that it?

i can almost hear some yawning.
So, that day, was there any significance in that day?


Bless you ....><>

But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2:9

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:24-27

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,



is that it?

i can almost hear some yawning.
So, that day, was there any significance in that day?


Bless you ....><>

But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2:9

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:24-27

I don't see where you're going with this.

 

[Butch5]

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.
Luke 23:40-42

Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that Thou bearest unto Thy people: O visit me with Thy salvation; that I may see the good of Thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of Thy nation, that I may glory with Thine inheritance.
We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly.
Psalm 106:4-6

Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto Thy holy name, and to triumph in Thy praise.
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen.
Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 106:47-48

And Jesus said unto him,
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· - and He said unto him
Verily I say unto thee,
Ἀμήν σοι λέγω - Amen to you
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I am not familiar with anywhere that Jesus said something as suggested, ie, amen, amen, to you today
(other renditions are 'truly truly' or 'verily verily' or I tell you a/the truth)
Amen is. Full stop. no today because Amen is and has no time to it.
In other words, while we might get thinking that the wording is wrong, ie, the comma is in the wrong place, to put it after today, would make the words of Jesus not only to be not as He was everywhere else recorded to speak, but also it makes no sense. Imagine it,
When we say that we should not neglect other Scripture, that is true. However, in doing so, diligently (?) we can overlook other aspects of what we do have before us in our looking and reading and hearing. In this case, we do well to see that the word used and recorded as 'Truly' is actually 'amen' and therefore we would have "amen i tell you today' ; rather than amen, i tell you.... or, amen what i say to you, or in other words, I speak the truth and am witness to the truth i speak, amen.

Notice that the Lord spoke His reply to only the one. We have that in the translation, also. I say unto thee. not, I say unto ye.

Concerning the Lord saying to day, or , this day, remember that He was replying directly to the question of the thief, to remember him.

Again i ask, what was 'this day'? Simply another execution day? Yet another boring old crucifixion? Crucifixion was common back then in those necks of the woods.
Do you think that given the request amidst all the mockery and jest, the taunting and outright unbelief, a request by a man who not only realized his guilt but also that he was with a man Who had done no wrong, a man Who was somehow able to remember him.....
The thief's request is glanced over, it seems. by all too many.
Here we have the very Hope of Israel, the Messiah, about to die for the sins of the world, and one man... one solitary thief of a man, asks to be remembered by this other Man Who was, in the thief's mind, while being crucified, entering somewhere more than death, or else, why would one ask a dying man to remember you when they get there?
Is this starting to add up?

You have to ask, why was he wanting to be remembered? To be exacted punishment and ruin? Who was he addressing? What did the Man have and what was this day that he asked Him?

It appears that we can get thinking that nobody had a clue and nobody knew Scripture like we do, so to think the thief, I mean, a thief, what would he know???!!

You will find throughout Scripture plenty much that points exactly to this request and the response.

There is so much more in this little passage that we might get around to.

for now,


Bless you ....><>

I'm not really following where you're going here. "ἀμήν σοι λέγω" translates, amen you I speak. That's what's translated, truly I say to you. Amen basically means, so let it be.
The comma determines whether "today" goes with the phrase before it or after it. Many translators place today with the phrase after the comma. However, this runs contrary to many other passages of Scripture.

 

[Beetow]

Christ wasn't in heaven while he was dead.

● John 20:17 . . Jesus said: Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.

In point of fact, Jesus went down instead of up.

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

So if Jesus and the malefactor went to paradise the very day of their crucifixion, then the paradise that Jesus spoke of on the cross wasn't the one spoken of in Rev 2:7

Abraham spoke of his own location in Luke 16:25 as a place of comfort. And judging from the rich man's request in Luke 16:24, Abraham's location also had a source of water. Abraham and Lazarus were definitely in a paradise compared to the rich man's circumstances depicted in Luke 16:23-24.
_

 

[Butch5]

Christ wasn't in heaven while he was dead.

● John 20:17 . . Jesus said: Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.

In point of fact, Jesus went down instead of up.

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

So if Jesus and the malefactor went to paradise the very day of their crucifixion, then the paradise that Jesus spoke of on the cross wasn't the one spoken of in Rev 2:7

Abraham spoke of his own location in Luke 16:25 as a place of comfort. And judging from the rich man's request in Luke 16:24, Abraham's location also had a source of water. Abraham and Lazarus were definitely in a paradise compared to the rich man's circumstances depicted in Luke 16:23-24.
_

Hi Beetow,

My point is that they didn't go to Paradise that day. The Greek word translated paradise literally means a garden. I would also submit that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable about the judgment that was coming to Israel, and not about an afterlife.

 

[Beetow]

I would also submit that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable

Matthew 13:34 and Mark 4:3 are often cited as proof that when Jesus spoke to crowds, he spoke only in parables and never in plain speech. However, the gist of those two references merely indicates that Jesus always included at least one parable in his sermons rather than that his sermons were spoken only in parable form.

In point of fact, many of the Lord's sermons preached to crowds were plain-spoken without hidden meanings; for example Mark 12:35-37 which says;

While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked: How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."

David himself calls him "Lord." How then can he be his son?

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

Jesus was speaking that day in the Temple courtyard which, at the time, was a convenient venue for anybody with the moxie and the wherewithal to set up a soap box and preach to one and all who cared to listen. He went on to say other plain-spoken things to the crowd that day sans hidden meanings. For example Mark 12:38-40 which says:

As he taught, Jesus said: Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.
_

 

[Beetow]

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. He was also a prophet (Gen 20:7) and the friend of God (Isa 41:8).

I simply cannot accept that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; most especially a prophet and one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

As a prophet, Abraham was an inspired man. As such, he would be privy to information that would normally be unavailable to the average rank and file pew warmer. Abraham was also a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so, means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings are the voice of God.

There is something else to consider.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro-managed.

● John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction, the parable theory slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

God's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt, that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume Luke 16:19-31 was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at least based upon real life.

In other words: there really is an afterlife place of conscious suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar to the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones while utterly helpless to do anything about it.

You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children following you there: and they trusted you. Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it sure is pertinent.

A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footsteps.

Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld knowing they brought up their children to follow an ideology whose pot at the end of the rainbow is filled with fire instead of gold. How do people bear up under something like that on their conscience?
_

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 13:34 and Mark 4:3 are often cited as proof that when Jesus spoke to crowds, he spoke only in parables and never in plain speech. However, the gist of those two references merely indicates that Jesus always included at least one parable in his sermons rather than that his sermons were spoken only in parable form.

In point of fact, many of the Lord's sermons preached to crowds were plain-spoken without hidden meanings; for example Mark 12:35-37 which says;

While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked: How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."

David himself calls him "Lord." How then can he be his son?

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

Jesus was speaking that day in the Temple courtyard which, at the time, was a convenient venue for anybody with the moxie and the wherewithal to set up a soap box and preach to one and all who cared to listen. He went on to say other plain-spoken things to the crowd that day sans hidden meanings. For example Mark 12:38-40 which says:

As he taught, Jesus said: Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.
_

I'm not sure what your point is here. Is it your position that the story isn't a parable?