Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Trying to explain the trinity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
there is a huge cult that claims they are the only true church. this being the jehovahs witness. they do not believe that christ is god and that we are to worship god through christ. even though the bible makes this point very clear. jesus stated i am the way the truth and the life. no one gets to the father except through me. he also said if you know me then you know the father. he also stated that those who do not believe in the name of the so is condemned alredy for they have not believed in the name of the only begotten son of god.

we also see in revelations where alll the angels were singing praises and hymns to the lamb of god and stating he is worthy of all praise and honor and glory. jesus is the lamb of god.
 
I suppose in some translations this would be absent- notably the Watch Tower's corrupt translation.


pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos

Here is some good info from the Christian Defense website. They specialize in apologetics as it relates to cults and delibrate mistranslations.
I have a dear friend who is (nameless) very high up in the Watch Tower organization, he told me these scriptures were retranslated so as to "not give the wrong appearance or to mislead anyone".
Changing the Word of God only made it the fallible words of man.
HEBREWS 1:8

Responding to the unitarian denial of Jesus being addressed
as o qeoj, ho theos, "the God"

Proj de ton uion o qronoj sou o qeoj, pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos, (lit. “but regarding the Son [He says], the throne of you the God. . . .”). To deny the deity of the Son, many unitarian groups (esp. Oneness and Jehovah’s Witnesses) contest that the articular nominative qeoj, theos (“God”) here carries the vocative force (as represented in most translations). The two basic arguments mounted against the nominative for the vocative are as follows:

1. To see qeoj, theos as a strict subject nominative: “God is your throne” (as rendered in the Watchtower’s New World Translation).



2. To see qeoj, theos as a predicate: “Your throne is God.”

In response to the first argument, (a) nowhere in Scripture is God called someone’s human throne, (b) if qeoj, theos were the subject, then naturally o qeoj, ho theos would appear before o qronoj, ho thronos (“the throne”; cf. Reymond, Systematic Theology, 274), but it does not, and (c) the context of Hebrews chapter 1 is drawing a sharp ontological contrast between created angels and the divine uncreated Son: “For to which of the angels did He [God the Father] say . . . But of the Son He says . . .” (1:5, 8). This contrast would be lost if the subject-nominative view was correct. In response to the second argument, if qeoj, theos were a predicate we would certainly expect qeoj, theos to be anarthrous (i.e. lacking the art. o, ho, “the”) and “appearing either before ‘your throne’ or after ‘for ever and ever’” (cf. ibid.), but it does not. Clearly, both arguments put forward by unitarians groups fall short of grammatical and contextual probability. Therefore, to see qeoj, theos as a vocative of direct address: “Your throne, O God,” as all meaningful translations and grammarians render, is based on the following data:

1. “The traditional rendering, ‘your throne, O God,’ where {yhl) [Elohim] is a vocative, is found in all the ancient versions, many English translations (KJV, RV, ASV, Berkeley, NASB, JB, NAB, NIV, NRSV), and many modern commentators” (Harris, Jesus as God, 196). Moreover, the ancient Targums render the passage as an address to God Himself: “Thy throne of glory, O Lord endure for ever and ever.” Verse 3, the targumist applies to Christ: “Your beauty, O King Messiah, surpasses that of ordinary men.”



2. The LXX translation of Psalm 45, from which the author is quoting, the king is addressed by the vocative dunate, dunate (“O Mighty One”; vv. 4, 6; cf. Reymond, Systematic Theology, 274). Similarly, Harris observes:



in the LXX version it is even more probable that o( qeoj is a vocative for the king is addressed a “mighty warrior” (dunate) not only verse 4 but also in verse 6. . . . This dual address heightens the antecedent probability, given the word order, that in the next verse o( qeoj should be rendered “O God.” One may therefore affirm with a high degree of confidence that in the LXX text from which the author of Hebrews was quoting o qeoj represents a vocatival {yhl) [Elohim]” (Harris, Jesus as God, 215).



3. In Psalms (LXX) there are at lest sixty-three instances where the nominative qeoj, theos carries the vocative force.



4. The articular nominative qeoj, theos with the vocative force, as in this text, is a “well-established idiom in classical Greek, the Septuagint, and the New Testament” (Reymond, Systematic Theology, 272; e.g., the articular nominative qeoj theos in the parallel passages John 20:28 and Rev. 4:11 are clearly in direct address). Commenting on the articular nominative for the vocative, Wallace points out that there are “nearly sixty examples of it in the NT” and that there are “almost 600 instances of the anarthrous nom. for the voc. in the NT” (Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 56-57, nn. 69, 72). So common was the nominative for the vocative that of all the times in the NT that qeo/j, theos is being directly addressed, only in one verse does qeo/j, theos actually appear in the vocative case: qee mou qee mou, thee mou thee mou (“My God, my God . . .”; Matt. 27:46).



5. The context of Hebrews 1 is addressing the Son as God in an ontological sense (cf. Heb. 1:3) as distinguished from created angles. That the author would suddenly break the context to have the Father say in 1:8, “Your throne is God,” or “God is your throne” is contextually inconceivable.

Therefore, both grammatically and contextually is to see the articular nominative qeoj, theos as carrying vocative force of direct address: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” For this is the universal consensus among objective scholarship.

Dear Larry,
I have been using the Blue Letter Bible on the internet and the Interlinear Bible with Strong's concordance book. The Greek used by the Blue Letter Bible is the Textus Receptus and the Greek used by my Interlinear Bible uses the Received Text. This publication says that it was created for the Trinitarian Bible Society. I double checked them both and that both have "o' theos" in Hbr 1:8 and they both translate it as "O God". I have never found any translation that translates it's to mean "Most High God" or words to that effect. In fact, every commonly known translation I have seen says "O God". The Father in this verse is not saying that Christ is the Most High God. The Father simply means that Christ is God because He sent the fullness of His Spirit to dwell in Christ and because He elevated Christ to the position of Creator of this world. Christ is our God and Creator because the Father worked through Christ. Someday, the fullness of God's Spirit will dwell in mankind and we will be called gods. That will not make us equal with the Father, just as Christ is not equal with the Father. All things come out of the Father. Christ is God over this creation because He received it from the Father but His throne will end when the ages the Father established come to an end. When that day arrives, Christ will deliver up His kingdom to the Father so that God (the Father) will be all in all.

Also, I want it to be known that I have no ties to any group or denomination. I have never been associated in anyway with the Watch Tower Organization and know very little about them. My background comes from the Baptist/non-denominational churches of which I have not associated with for more than 5 years. My understanding of scripture comes from scripture and not any church group. I will never again trust any man to tell me what the scriptures teach. I study the scriptures themselves. Five years ago, when I saw that the mainstream doctrines of the churches are not supported in scripture, I began my own study and used the method scripture lays out to study. I soon discovered that none of the mainstream doctrines are correct. Some are mixed with some truth but there are many doctrines that are complete error.

By the way, I believe the most correct translation of Hbr 1:8 comes from the Young's Literal Translation which says:

Hbr 1:8 and unto the Son: Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age, a scepter of righteousness, is the scepter of thy reign.

So when the ages end, Christ's Kingdom will be delivered up the the Father and God the Father will be all in all. The Holy Spirit that dwells in us and Christ is the Father's Spirit and we are all His children. Everything in scripture supports this understanding.

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas
 
I double checked them both and that both have "o' theos" in Hbr 1:8 and they both translate it as "O God". I have never found any translation that translates it's to mean "Most High God" or words to that effect.
You are getting closer to the truth my brother. Just check that Strong's Concordance again and you will see the definition in the original language is supreme (or most high) God (highlighted below in red)


G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
 
You are getting closer to the truth my brother. Just check that Strong's Concordance again and you will see the definition in the original language is supreme (or most high) God (highlighted below in red)


G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Dear Larry,
Are you saying that "O" is "ho"? Why is it always translated as O' God? It makes no sense to me if what you say is true. The first definition of "ho" is "of uncertain affinity". Is this the verse that has convinced you that Jesus is equal to the Father (but lower in office as you say, though no scriptures support that premise) and that the trinity doctrine is true? Are you saying that this one little "o", supersedes all the numerous other scriptures that that say Christ was "made higher than the angels", "learned obedience", "was made perfect", "the Father is greater than I", "beginning of the creation of God", and all the statements that the Father is the Head and out of the Father all things are created and exist? Where is your double witness of scripture of Christ being the Most High God to back up your understanding Hbr 1:8? What about all the contradictions you have with the other scriptures I quoted? What about "the sum of God's Word is truth"? If even only one other scripture conflicts with your understanding of Christ being the Most High God, then your understanding is flawed. And there are many such scriptures. Scripture does not contradict other scripture as I'm sure you are aware. Of these other conflicting scriptures I quoted, you seem to have no response for them. You quickly move on to another scripture that you believe will support your claim without telling why the scriptures I quoted don't apply or say what I say that do. To find the truth of scripture, all scriptures that seem to contradict a belief must be dealt with and explained. If they cannot be, then the truth is still yet to be found. When I learned this simple truth, I was truly humbled when I came to realize that everything I based my Christian life on for my first thirty years was in conflict with much of God's Word.

Larry, I really don't expect you to answer all the questions above that I posed. I just wanted you to think about them. If you can live with your answers, then so be it. As for me, I can't rest if I find a scripture that contradicts my understanding of scripture. Those scriptures that contradict with mainstream teachings are what caused me to start digging deeper and deeper into God's Word to find the truth. The truth is more precious than silver or gold and is like hidden treasure. This scripture in Proverbs is my driving force in my search for the knowledge of God:

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

The truth of God is truly hidden in scripture and God planned it to be that way. I wish you my best in your quest for truth.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas
 
All the books on earth ,Will not give us perfect understanding!
God has giving us a Part of HIS very self , So we would have the correct understanding!
The just live by FAITh !

our understanding and those books written by men , will not give us what the Spirit of Truth wants to give us!

He waits 24/7 for us to but ASK!
 
Dear Larry,
Are you saying that "O" is "ho"? Why is it always translated as O' God? It makes no sense to me if what you say is true. The first definition of "ho" is "of uncertain affinity". Is this the verse that has convinced you that Jesus is equal to the Father (but lower in office as you say, though no scriptures support that premise) and that the trinity doctrine is true? Are you saying that this one little "o", supersedes all the numerous other scriptures that that say Christ was "made higher than the angels", "learned obedience", "was made perfect", "the Father is greater than I", "beginning of the creation of God", and all the statements that the Father is the Head and out of the Father all things are created and exist? Where is your double witness of scripture of Christ being the Most High God to back up your understanding Hbr 1:8? What about all the contradictions you have with the other scriptures I quoted? What about "the sum of God's Word is truth"? If even only one other scripture conflicts with your understanding of Christ being the Most High God, then your understanding is flawed. And there are many such scriptures. Scripture does not contradict other scripture as I'm sure you are aware. Of these other conflicting scriptures I quoted, you seem to have no response for them. You quickly move on to another scripture that you believe will support your claim without telling why the scriptures I quoted don't apply or say what I say that do. To find the truth of scripture, all scriptures that seem to contradict a belief must be dealt with and explained. If they cannot be, then the truth is still yet to be found. When I learned this simple truth, I was truly humbled when I came to realize that everything I based my Christian life on for my first thirty years was in conflict with much of God's Word.

Larry, I really don't expect you to answer all the questions above that I posed. I just wanted you to think about them. If you can live with your answers, then so be it. As for me, I can't rest if I find a scripture that contradicts my understanding of scripture. Those scriptures that contradict with mainstream teachings are what caused me to start digging deeper and deeper into God's Word to find the truth. The truth is more precious than silver or gold and is like hidden treasure. This scripture in Proverbs is my driving force in my search for the knowledge of God:

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

The truth of God is truly hidden in scripture and God planned it to be that way. I wish you my best in your quest for truth.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

My friend I would like to share 2 points with you:
1. While the first definition is certainly beneficial to the support of your doctrine it is certainly not congruous with the original Greek and therefore needs to be re-examined. Please take the time to examine the information I have provided.

The articular nominative qeoj, theos with the vocative force, as in this text, is a “well-established idiom in classical Greek, the Septuagint, and the New Testament” (Reymond, Systematic Theology, 272; e.g., the articular nominative qeoj theos in the parallel passages John 20:28 and Rev. 4:11 are clearly in direct address). Commenting on the articular nominative for the vocative, Wallace points out that there are “nearly sixty examples of it in the NT” and that there are “almost 600 instances of the anarthrous nom. for the voc. in the NT” (Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 56-57, nn. 69, 72). So common was the nominative for the vocative that of all the times in the NT that qeo/j, theos is being directly addressed, only in one verse does qeo/j, theos actually appear in the vocative case: qee mou qee mou, thee mou thee mou (“My God, my God . . .”; Matt. 27:46).
(from the Christian defense website)

2. The classic watchtower style argument limiting Jesus to their view falls on it's face. They claim that since more scriptures declare Jesus was a created being than God so He must be the former.
Yet all scripture is given for reproof and for doctrine and this argument would leave one resorting to using a pair of scissors to align his doctrine with the Bible. This is more or less just how the watchtower (Jehovah's un-witnesses) have handled the Word turning it into an abomination.
If the Word of God declares He is man and declares He is God then He is not one of these but both. Trying to limit God by placing human restrictions and preconceived notions simply does not work.
Yes the scripture declares that Jesus (Emmanuel- God with us) is always subject to the Father. Yet the Father plainly (in any honest exegesis of Hebrews 1:8 and as provided above) is calling Him supreme God. In my opinion if God calls Him both then He is both and no amount of twisting or wrangling will change that.
So that my friend leaves me in harmony with all the scriptures and not struggling to fit the ones that do not go into any "boxes" I have constructed.
I am continuing to enjoy our conversations, we all have lots of room to grow.
Have an awesome day walking in the presence of God, your brother Larry.
 
What Bible version does that citation come from? Every Christian Bible I've ever seen finishes that citation with "and the Word was God", not "a god".

SLE

Yes, most Bibles do finish John 1:1 as "and the Word was God." However, just because most Bibles read this way, does this make it accurate ? Case in point is Genesis 13:1, 3 whereby the King James Bible, along with a whole host of other Bibles, read: "And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south....And he went on his journeys from the south even to Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;" According to this rendering, Abraham went "south" from Egypt to reach Bethel.

However, this could not be true, for Bethel is north of Egypt, not south and is about 15 miles north of Jerusalem. In some translations a distinction between the geographic designation and the compass direction is not maintained, resulting in confusing renderings. Thus, more accurate Bibles read: "Following that A´bram went up out of Egypt, he and his wife and all that he had, and Lot with him, to the Neg´eb....And he made his way from encampment to encampment out of the Neg´eb and to Beth´el, to the place where his tent had been at first between Beth´el and A´i." (New World Translation) The Neg´eb was an area in the southern part of the land of Canaan, just below the Dead (or Salt) Sea.

Some translations render John 1:1 as saying: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Literally the Greek text reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was toward the god, and god was the word.” The translator must supply capitals as needed in the language into which he translates the text. It is clearly proper to capitalize “God” in translating the phrase “the god,” since this must identify the Almighty God with whom the Word was. But the capitalizing of the word “god” in the second case does not have the same justification.

The New World Translation renders this text: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” True, there is no indefinite article (corresponding to “a” or “an”) in the original Greek text. But this does not mean one should not be used in translation, for Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article.

Hence, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, commonly called the New Testament, translators are obliged to use the indefinite article or not according to their understanding of the meaning of the text. All English translations of those Scriptures do contain the indefinite article hundreds of times; yet most do not use it at John 1:1. Nevertheless, its use in the rendering of this text has sound basis.

This rendering would support the fact that Jesus, being the Son of God and the one used by God in creating all other things (Col 1:15-20), is indeed a “god,” a mighty one, and has the quality of mightiness, but is not the Almighty God. Other translations reflect this view.

The New English Bible says: “And what God was, the Word was.” The Greek word translated “Word” is Lo´gos; and so James Moffatt’s translation reads: “The Logos was divine.” The American Translation reads: “The Word was divine.” Other readings, by German translators, follow. By Böhmer: “It was tightly bound up with God, yes, itself of divine being.” By Stage: “The Word was itself of divine being.” By Menge: “And God (= of divine being) the Word was.” And by Thimme: “And God of a sort the Word was.” All these renderings highlight the quality of the Word, not his identity with his Father, the Almighty God. Being the Son of Jehovah God, he would have the divine quality, for divine means “godlike.”(Col 2:9)

It is of further interest that an ancient manuscript, written in Sahidic Coptic, should shed light on how John 1:1 was read in the first century C.E. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

JOHN 1:1. SAHIDIC COPTIC TEXT; P. CHESTER BEATTY-813; WITH INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION

In the beginning existed the Word
and the Word existed with
the God and a god was
the Word
 
Last edited:
I John 5:7

It Is Written, "For there are Three, Who bear Witness in Heaven, The Father, The Word, God The Holy Spirit, and these Three are One.

God told The True Apostle Paul to prove all things, and to hold fast to He Who is Good. God is good. :)

The King James Bible reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (The Catholic Douay also includes this Trinitarian passage.)

However, many Bibles do not include the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth", such as the Revised Standard Version, The New English Bible, Today's English Version, Jerusalem Bible,and The New American Bible leave out the Trinitarian passage.

Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

In the fourth century C.E., in a Latin treatise, an overzealous advocate of Trinitarianism evidently included the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one” as if these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7. Later that passage was put right into the text of a Latin Bible manuscript. The New King James Version reads concerning 1 John 5:7 in the center footnote section, that "only 4 or 5 very late mss.(manuscripts) contain these words in Greek."

Hence, it is essential that individuals do their "homework" and find out accurately what the Bible really teaches.
 
And he went on his journey from the south, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Hai;" According to this rendering, Abraham went "south" from Egypt to reach Bethel.

However, this could not be true, for Bethel is north of Egypt, not south and is about 15 miles north of Jerusalem.

The phrase "from the south" (underlined by me) cannot mean he headed south. It obviously means that he headed in another direction - not south. And that other direction was north toward Bethel.

SLE
 
Last edited:
This is a logical fallacy straight from the Jehovah's Witness' camp.

In the Greek John 1:1 literally says "In beginning was the Word and the Word was toward the God and God was the Word."

The article does not exist on the second God because grammatically it does not belong there.

Let's apply your logic to another verse that uses this very same article:
Matthew 1:2
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Literally in the Greek this says: "Abraham generates the Isaac Isaac yet generates the Jacob Jacob yet generates the Judas and the brothers of him."

So following your logical fallacy, we would have Abraham begatting the Isaac that we all know and love, but an Isaac begats the Jacob that we all know and love, but some other (a) Jacob begats Judas...

You get the point.

John 1:1 is clearly saying that the Word was there in the beginning (not sometime in a beginning era, but from the very first moment, if we had to think of it as time), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. They are one. And v14 shows us who the Word is: Jesus!

Further John 10:30 also clearly says (Jesus speaking):
John 10:30
I and my (the) Father are One.
One. Greek: heis (or hen). Literally means "one (indivisible)." How many ways can we read that they are one and not believe it?

In His Love
Bob

A Blessed Man,

Your logic is illogical when you used Matthew 1:2 in reference to Jesus being "God." With the Greek word "ho" (English "the") being before Abraham, Issac, and Jacob at Matthew 1:2, it establishes these as specific persons in the Bible, not just any "Abraham, Issac, or Jacob", just as "ho" before God identifies a specific "God" or "the God" as opposed to "a god." There is a notable difference between "the black suit" and "a black suit" in a person's closet. Thus, at John 1:1, there is a notable difference between "the God" and "god" without the definite article.

Sahidic Coptic was one of the languages that John 1:1 was translated into in the centuries following the death of the apostle John, along with Syriac and Latin. Being as it has within it an indefinite article comparable to English, then it would provide a real understanding of how John 1:1 should be rendered accurately.

JOHN 1:1. SAHIDIC COPTIC TEXT; P. CHESTER BEATTY-813 (located at Dublin, Ireland); WITH INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION

In the beginning existed the Word
and the Word existed with
the God and a god was
the Word

Obviously, those who read John 1:1 in Sahidic Coptic after the death of the apostle John did not see Jesus as "God", but as "a god." In addition, if the word "one" means just "one (indivisible)", then please explain John 17:22, in which Jesus says in prayer to his Father, that "I have given them (his disciples) the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."

Again, obviously, the word "one" (Greek heis) means not necessarily "one (indivisible)", but rather unity or "one" in purpose at John 17. That is why some Bibles render "en ego" and "en hemeis" as "in union with" ("me" or "us") instead of as the King James Bible reads, of "in me" or "in us" and hence losing the real meaning of unity of purpose.(New World Translation, William's New Testament)
 
Again, obviously, the word "one" (Greek heis) means not necessarily "one (indivisible)", but rather unity or "one" in purpose at John 17. That is why some Bibles render "en ego" and "en hemeis" as "in union with" ("me" or "us") instead of as the King James Bible reads, of "in me" or "in us" and hence losing the real meaning of unity of purpose.(New World Translation, William's New Testamen
Hi Jaareshiah! I have a few thoughts on the subject;

First, the New World Translation is an extreme corruption and thus a really poor reference. It was written with the specific agenda of promoting doctrine and has been deliberately altered to do so 100's of times.

Second ,Hebrews 1:8 the Father calls the Son Ho' Theos (the supreme God).

Thirdly, here is some really good info on the correct translation of John 1:1that may help clear up your understanding:

According to John 1:1 in your Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is "a god" but not "the God". In other
words, you teach that Jesus "was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah" and that "Christ and God are no
co-equal" (The Watch Tower, April 15, 1957).
Does the Bible substantiate these statements, or does it teach that Christ is God? This is an extremely important
question.
I would like to raise the following points for you to consider prayerfully.
1. Several Bible verses specifically affirm the deity of Christ. In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called
"Immanuel", which means "God with us". When Thomas touched the wounds of the risen Lord, he
exclaimed, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some
Jehovah Witnesses say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said "my Lord" but was referring
to God the Father when he said "my God". Instead Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God and
Christ did not correct him!
Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ, when it states that in Him "all the fullness of the
divine quality dwells bodily" (New World Translation).
"JESUS IS LORD"
Stephen called Jesus "Lord" (Acts 7:59, 60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 12:3).
"Lord" in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Greek version of the Old
Testament. Is it not rather evident from this that Christ the Lord (Kurios) is Jehovah God?
2. Several verses show that the Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. For
example, Isaiah wrote about Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10, and John in John 12:31-42 says that Isaiah saw
Jesus' glory and spoke of Him.
In Exodus 34:14 it is clear that we are to worship no one but Jehovah. But in Hebrews 1:6 the angels
worship Christ. In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last, but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is
the first and the last. Since there cannot be two firsts and two lasts, is it not clear that Jehovah and Christ
must both be God? This reveals that Jehovah is used not only of God the Father, but also of God the
Son. Though they are distinct persons they are each called "Jehovah" because they each possess deity.
3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God. Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 16:30;
21:17). He is eternal (Mic. 5:2), all powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb 1:3), sinless (John 8:46),
and unchanging
(Heb 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, this indicates that Christ possesses deity.
4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God. Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7;
Eph 1:7), control nature (Matt. 8:26), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), and judge the world (John
5:22, 27). Since only God can do these things, does it not follow that Christ is God?
5. Christ received worship. Christ is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt.14:33), and yet
only Jehovah is to be worshipped (Exod.34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone
(Matt.4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Christ in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael,
how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev.19:10; 22:8,
9)? If Christ were not God, then worship of Him would be idolatrous.
What about John 1:1? You say, "Christ the Word is 'a god' according to John 1:1 in the Jehovah's Witnesses'
New World Translation." Your translators say the small "g" is required because the Greek word for God (theos)
is not preceded by a definite article, "the" (ho).
"WHAT THE GREEK REALLY SAYS"
You are correct in saying that in John 1:1 the Greek word for God is not preceded by a definite article. However
good Greek scholarship agrees that this does not mean the word should be translated "god" with a small "g".
The definite article is omitted because of a somewhat technical rule of Greek grammar. A definite predicate
nominative which precedes a verb does not have the Greek article. The order of the Greek words in the last
clause of John 1:1 is "God was the Word" (theos en ho logos). The subject of the sentence is "the Word", the
verb is "was", and the predicate nominative is "God". Usually the predicate nominative follows the verb, but in
this case it precedes it; and since it precedes the verb no article is necessary.
When a Greek writer wanted to stress the quality of a person or thing which was in the predicate nominative
case, he would put it before the verb rather than after it. This is what John did to stress the fact that the Word
(Christ) possesses the qualities of Godhood. This fundamental principle of Greek grammar thus supports the
deity of Christ and gives no support whatsoever to the translation, "The Word was a god". The intent of John
could be rendered in English, "The Word was fully God".
May I point out, too, that even your New World Translation does not always follow it's "no article - small 'g'"
rule. For example, in John 1:6, 12, 13, the word "God" does not have the article in the Greek, but it does have a
capital "G" in the New World Translation. It is correct to use the capital in those verses but it is inconsistent
with the New World Translation of John 1:1.
You might also be interested in noting that in John 13:3 the word "God" occurs twice, each time with a capital
"G". But in the Greek the first occurrence of the word does not have the definite article and the second
occurrence does. Since both obviously refer to the same person - God the Father - it would again be wrong to
assume that the alleged "no article - small 'g'" rule has any validity in Greek grammar.
Another observation is that without the article, theos signifies divine essence, while with the article theos
suggests divine personality (see Dana and Mantley, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 139).
Also theos is a definite noun and therefore cannot have the indefinite article "a".
It is important to keep in mind that when John 1:1 states that "the Word was God", it does not mean Jesus is
God the Father, nor "Jesus is the Trinity". The Jehovah's Witnesses' booklet, "The Word", Who is He?
According to John (p.6), erroneously tries to suggest that this is what non-Jehovah's Witnesses mean by their
translation, "the Word was God". But this is not the case at all! As already shown, this clause stresses the divine
quality of the Word. John is telling us that in the beginning the Word existed, was with God the Father and
possesses full deity.
You should know to that there are verses clearly referring to Christ in which the word "God" does have the
definite article ("the"), thus showing that Jesus is "the God", that is, Jehovah. (Matthew 1:23, for example,
which states that Jesus is Immanuel, in the Greek is rendered "with us is the God". Jesus is therefore Jehovah
God.
You say that Christ is "a god" according to the New World Translation of John 1:1 - one who was created by
Jehovah. How could Christ be "a god" when in Isaiah 43.10 Jehovah say that there is no god before Him or after
Him? No god would ever be created by Jehovah because, as He stated, "Before me there was no god formed,
and after me there continued to be none" (New World Translation) .
John 1:1 states that the Word (Christ) was with God. And yet in Deuteronomy 32:39 Jehovah states, "There is
no god with Me". If Christ is not God but "a god", then Deuteronomy 32:39 is contradicted.
ISAIAH AND COLOSSIANS
I'm sure you are aware that Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Christ the "mighty God". No doubt you, like other Jehovah's
Witnesses, have a ready answer for this verse. You explain that Christ is "the mighty god" but not "the
almighty". You say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty, and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never
the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the
mighty God (Isa.9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer.32:18), they are both God. They both possess full
deity. What about Colossians 1:15-17? Jehovah's Witnesses refer to this passage to support their teaching that
Christ was created by Jehovah (e.g., Let God Be True, p. 35). This is based primarily on the words, "the
firstborn of all creation", in verse 15.
However, if this verse were teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by Jehovah, the word
"first-created" would have been used of Christ, not the word "firstborn". These are two different words in the
Greek, with two different meanings. "First-created" is protoktistos, and "firstborn" is prototokos. Colossians
1:15 does not use the word protoktistos, "first-created". Instead it uses prototokos. The latter word means an
heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15, then, is that Christ is first in rank above
all creation; He is the heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it as the Lord.
Your New World Translation adds the word "other" four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states
that Christ created "all other things", that is, everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding
the word "other". It does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation
admit this by putting the word "other" in brackets. Obviously this is done in order to comply with the
assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as we've seen, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and
therefore it is wrong to add the word "other". There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was
created by Jehovah!
Some might raise a question about Revelation 3:14. This passage wrongly translated in the New World
Translation, "the beginning of the creation of God" should be rendered "the source (or origin) of God's
creation". The Greek word for source or origin is arche. This is consistent with the statements in Colossians
1:16 and John 1:3 that all things were made by or had their origin or source in Jesus Christ. Since all things
were made by Christ (John 1:1) and all things were made by Jehovah (Heb.3:4), both persons possessing this
omnipotent creative power are God with full deity.
PHILLIPIANS
What about Phillipians 2:6? The New World Translation suggests that Christ was not equal with God and did
not even want to be: "Although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that
he should be equal with God". This is a poor translation of the Greek. The Phillips Version gives a much better
rendering of the Greek: "He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to His prerogatives as God's
equal". The New American Standard Version renders it: "Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not
consider equality with God a thing to be grasped". The Living Bible puts the meaning in these words: "Who,
though He was God, did not demand and cling to His rights as God".
It is important to remember that Phillipians 2:5-8 is discussing the incarnation of Christ, His act of leaving
heaven's glory and coming to the earth. By stating that He did not cling to His prerogatives and rights as God,
Phillipians 2.5 is saying that He willingly came to the earth. Also, it is important not to overlook the first part of
the verse: "He existed in the form of God". The word "form" means essential attributes. Therefore since Christ
was in the form of God, that is, possessing the attributes of deity, it is wrong to suggest that He did not want to
be equal with God. He already was - and is - God! The view that His being equal with God was something that
He had to grasp for is excluded by the fact that He already existed in the form of God.
What about John 10:30? I assume that you, like other Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that this verse, "I and the
Father are one", means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence.
However, if that were all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His
purpose was the same as God's. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of
blasphemy, because He claimed to be God! The New World Translation uses the words "a god", but as
explained earlier, theos is a definite noun and without the article denotes divine essence. As John 5:18 reveals,
the fact that Jesus called God His Father meant to the Jews that He was making Himself "equal with God".
I have spent much time discussing the deity of Christ because this is the central point of the Scriptures. God
Himself came to save men from their sins. The Bible teaches we are to turn to Christ as Jehovah God for
salvation. Pardon from sin comes by (1) recognizing that you are a sinner in need of God's grace (Rom.3:10, 23;
Jer.17:9; Eccles.7:20; Eph.2:1, 2; 1 John 1:8); (2) realizing that Jesus Christ came to earth for the explicit
purpose of dying as a substitute for you (Isa.53:6; 1 Pet.2:24; 3:18), bearing the penalty of your sins Himself;
and (3) receiving Jesus Christ into your heart as your Saviour (Acts 16:30, 31; John 1:12; 3:16, 36; 5:24; 6:47;
Acts 4:12; Rom.10:13).
Christ came to do more than just atone for Adam's sin and to restore "perfect human life with it's rights and
earthly prospects" (Let God Be True, p. 96). He came to forgive sins (Eph.1:7), to give eternal life (John 10:28;
17:2), to justify us (declare us righteous) by His grace (Rom.3:24), to die for our sins (1 Pet.2:24; 3:18;
Rom.5:6, 8), to reconcile us to Himself (remove the enmity between man and God) (Rom.5:10), to redeem
(ransom or purchase) us from the penalty and power of sin (Gal.4:4, 5; Eph 1:7), and to make us Children of
God (John 1:12).
Forgiveness of sins does not come by trying to pass the test Adam failed or to maintain "integrity" (as the
August 15, 1956 issue of the Watch Tower suggests). By attempting to keep integrity or by works of the law,
"no flesh will be declared righteous before Him" (Rom.3:20, New World Translation).
How then can a sinful man appear righteous in the sight of God? The Scriptures say it "is as a free gift that they
are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release of the ransom paid by Jesus Christ.
God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood" (Rom.3:24-25, New World
Translation). On the basis of Christ's atonement we can be pardoned from all our sin and declared righteous in
Christ. "By means of him (Christ) we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the
forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of undeserved kindness" (Eph.1:7, New World
Translation).
You can have forgiveness of sins and be perfectly righteous in God's sight by accepting Christ's atonement for
you, by receiving Him as your personal Saviour. Though you are a sinner who has fallen short of God's glory
(Rom.3:23), you can be pardoned of your sins and declared righteous in Christ by placing your faith (trust) in
Him. Millions who have done this through the centuries have experienced a miraculous change of heart and life
as He promised. Will you turn to Him now, asking Him to forgive you of your sins and be your Saviour?
Roy B Zuck author
 
Last edited:
The phrase "from the south" (underlined by me) cannot mean he headed south. It obviously means that he headed in another direction - not south. And that other direction was north toward Bethel.

SLE

SpiritLedEd,

At Genesis 13:1, the King James Bible is confusing, for it says that "Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the south." Thus, it seems that Abram went "out of Egypt...into the south," and from there traveled "from the south even to Bethel." However, many translators realize that the Hebrew word ne´ghev at Genesis 13 did not mean a direction but a region. If you had a map that gave confusing directions, could it be trusted to direct you to your location ?

Bibles, such as the New International Version, New American Standard Version, English Standard Version, New Century Version, GOD'S WORD Translation, among others, recognize that Hebrew word ne´ghev at Genesis 13 does not mean the direction "south" here, but a region in southern Canaan and is transliterated into English as Negev.
 
Last edited:
Hi Jaareshiah! I have a few thoughts on the subject;

First, the New World Translation is an extreme corruption and thus a really poor reference. It was written with the specific agenda of promoting doctrine and has been deliberately altered to do so 100's of times.

Second ,Hebrews 1:8 the Father calls the Son Ho' Theos (the supreme God).

Thirdly, here is some really good info on the correct translation of John 1:1that may help clear up your understanding:

According to John 1:1 in your Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is "a god" but not "the God". In other
words, you teach that Jesus "was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah" and that "Christ and God are no
co-equal" (The Watch Tower, April 15, 1957).
Does the Bible substantiate these statements, or does it teach that Christ is God? This is an extremely important
question.
I would like to raise the following points for you to consider prayerfully.
1. Several Bible verses specifically affirm the deity of Christ. In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called
"Immanuel", which means "God with us". When Thomas touched the wounds of the risen Lord, he
exclaimed, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some
Jehovah Witnesses say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said "my Lord" but was referring
to God the Father when he said "my God". Instead Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God and
Christ did not correct him!
Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ, when it states that in Him "all the fullness of the
divine quality dwells bodily" (New World Translation).
"JESUS IS LORD"
Stephen called Jesus "Lord" (Acts 7:59, 60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 12:3).
"Lord" in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Greek version of the Old
Testament. Is it not rather evident from this that Christ the Lord (Kurios) is Jehovah God?
2. Several verses show that the Christ of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. For
example, Isaiah wrote about Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10, and John in John 12:31-42 says that Isaiah saw
Jesus' glory and spoke of Him.
In Exodus 34:14 it is clear that we are to worship no one but Jehovah. But in Hebrews 1:6 the angels
worship Christ. In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last, but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is
the first and the last. Since there cannot be two firsts and two lasts, is it not clear that Jehovah and Christ
must both be God? This reveals that Jehovah is used not only of God the Father, but also of God the
Son. Though they are distinct persons they are each called "Jehovah" because they each possess deity.
3. Attributes of Christ show that He is God. Jesus Christ knows all things (John 1:48; 2:25; 6:64; 16:30;
21:17). He is eternal (Mic. 5:2), all powerful (Matt. 28:18; Heb 1:3), sinless (John 8:46),
and unchanging
(Heb 13:8). Since only God possesses these attributes, this indicates that Christ possesses deity.
4. Certain works of Christ show that He is God. Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7;
Eph 1:7), control nature (Matt. 8:26), give eternal life (John 10:28; 17:2), and judge the world (John
5:22, 27). Since only God can do these things, does it not follow that Christ is God?
5. Christ received worship. Christ is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt.14:33), and yet
only Jehovah is to be worshipped (Exod.34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone
(Matt.4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Christ in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael,
how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev.19:10; 22:8,
9)? If Christ were not God, then worship of Him would be idolatrous.
What about John 1:1? You say, "Christ the Word is 'a god' according to John 1:1 in the Jehovah's Witnesses'
New World Translation." Your translators say the small "g" is required because the Greek word for God (theos)
is not preceded by a definite article, "the" (ho).
"WHAT THE GREEK REALLY SAYS"
You are correct in saying that in John 1:1 the Greek word for God is not preceded by a definite article. However
good Greek scholarship agrees that this does not mean the word should be translated "god" with a small "g".
The definite article is omitted because of a somewhat technical rule of Greek grammar. A definite predicate
nominative which precedes a verb does not have the Greek article. The order of the Greek words in the last
clause of John 1:1 is "God was the Word" (theos en ho logos). The subject of the sentence is "the Word", the
verb is "was", and the predicate nominative is "God". Usually the predicate nominative follows the verb, but in
this case it precedes it; and since it precedes the verb no article is necessary.
When a Greek writer wanted to stress the quality of a person or thing which was in the predicate nominative
case, he would put it before the verb rather than after it. This is what John did to stress the fact that the Word
(Christ) possesses the qualities of Godhood. This fundamental principle of Greek grammar thus supports the
deity of Christ and gives no support whatsoever to the translation, "The Word was a god". The intent of John
could be rendered in English, "The Word was fully God".
May I point out, too, that even your New World Translation does not always follow it's "no article - small 'g'"
rule. For example, in John 1:6, 12, 13, the word "God" does not have the article in the Greek, but it does have a
capital "G" in the New World Translation. It is correct to use the capital in those verses but it is inconsistent
with the New World Translation of John 1:1.
You might also be interested in noting that in John 13:3 the word "God" occurs twice, each time with a capital
"G". But in the Greek the first occurrence of the word does not have the definite article and the second
occurrence does. Since both obviously refer to the same person - God the Father - it would again be wrong to
assume that the alleged "no article - small 'g'" rule has any validity in Greek grammar.
Another observation is that without the article, theos signifies divine essence, while with the article theos
suggests divine personality (see Dana and Mantley, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 139).
Also theos is a definite noun and therefore cannot have the indefinite article "a".
It is important to keep in mind that when John 1:1 states that "the Word was God", it does not mean Jesus is
God the Father, nor "Jesus is the Trinity". The Jehovah's Witnesses' booklet, "The Word", Who is He?
According to John (p.6), erroneously tries to suggest that this is what non-Jehovah's Witnesses mean by their
translation, "the Word was God". But this is not the case at all! As already shown, this clause stresses the divine
quality of the Word. John is telling us that in the beginning the Word existed, was with God the Father and
possesses full deity.
You should know to that there are verses clearly referring to Christ in which the word "God" does have the
definite article ("the"), thus showing that Jesus is "the God", that is, Jehovah. (Matthew 1:23, for example,
which states that Jesus is Immanuel, in the Greek is rendered "with us is the God". Jesus is therefore Jehovah
God.
You say that Christ is "a god" according to the New World Translation of John 1:1 - one who was created by
Jehovah. How could Christ be "a god" when in Isaiah 43.10 Jehovah say that there is no god before Him or after
Him? No god would ever be created by Jehovah because, as He stated, "Before me there was no god formed,
and after me there continued to be none" (New World Translation) .
John 1:1 states that the Word (Christ) was with God. And yet in Deuteronomy 32:39 Jehovah states, "There is
no god with Me". If Christ is not God but "a god", then Deuteronomy 32:39 is contradicted.
ISAIAH AND COLOSSIANS
I'm sure you are aware that Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Christ the "mighty God". No doubt you, like other Jehovah's
Witnesses, have a ready answer for this verse. You explain that Christ is "the mighty god" but not "the
almighty". You say that Christ is the mighty, never the almighty, and that Jehovah is the almighty God, never
the mighty. However, Jeremiah 32:18 shows that Jehovah is the mighty One. Therefore, since Christ is the
mighty God (Isa.9:6) and Jehovah is the mighty God (Jer.32:18), they are both God. They both possess full
deity. What about Colossians 1:15-17? Jehovah's Witnesses refer to this passage to support their teaching that
Christ was created by Jehovah (e.g., Let God Be True, p. 35). This is based primarily on the words, "the
firstborn of all creation", in verse 15.
However, if this verse were teaching that Jesus Christ is the first created being made by Jehovah, the word
"first-created" would have been used of Christ, not the word "firstborn". These are two different words in the
Greek, with two different meanings. "First-created" is protoktistos, and "firstborn" is prototokos. Colossians
1:15 does not use the word protoktistos, "first-created". Instead it uses prototokos. The latter word means an
heir, a begotten one, the first in rank. The teaching of Colossians 1:15, then, is that Christ is first in rank above
all creation; He is the heir of all things. He is prior to all creation and superior over it as the Lord.
Your New World Translation adds the word "other" four times in Colossians 1:15-17, so that the passage states
that Christ created "all other things", that is, everything except Himself. However, there is no basis for adding
the word "other". It does not occur in the Greek manuscripts. The translators of the New World Translation
admit this by putting the word "other" in brackets. Obviously this is done in order to comply with the
assumption that firstborn means first-created. But, as we've seen, this is not the meaning of firstborn, and
therefore it is wrong to add the word "other". There is no verse in the entire Bible that states that Christ was
created by Jehovah!
Some might raise a question about Revelation 3:14. This passage wrongly translated in the New World
Translation, "the beginning of the creation of God" should be rendered "the source (or origin) of God's
creation". The Greek word for source or origin is arche. This is consistent with the statements in Colossians
1:16 and John 1:3 that all things were made by or had their origin or source in Jesus Christ. Since all things
were made by Christ (John 1:1) and all things were made by Jehovah (Heb.3:4), both persons possessing this
omnipotent creative power are God with full deity.
PHILLIPIANS
What about Phillipians 2:6? The New World Translation suggests that Christ was not equal with God and did
not even want to be: "Although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that
he should be equal with God". This is a poor translation of the Greek. The Phillips Version gives a much better
rendering of the Greek: "He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to His prerogatives as God's
equal". The New American Standard Version renders it: "Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not
consider equality with God a thing to be grasped". The Living Bible puts the meaning in these words: "Who,
though He was God, did not demand and cling to His rights as God".
It is important to remember that Phillipians 2:5-8 is discussing the incarnation of Christ, His act of leaving
heaven's glory and coming to the earth. By stating that He did not cling to His prerogatives and rights as God,
Phillipians 2.5 is saying that He willingly came to the earth. Also, it is important not to overlook the first part of
the verse: "He existed in the form of God". The word "form" means essential attributes. Therefore since Christ
was in the form of God, that is, possessing the attributes of deity, it is wrong to suggest that He did not want to
be equal with God. He already was - and is - God! The view that His being equal with God was something that
He had to grasp for is excluded by the fact that He already existed in the form of God.
What about John 10:30? I assume that you, like other Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that this verse, "I and the
Father are one", means that Christ was one with God the Father in purpose and not in nature and essence.
However, if that were all Christ was saying, why did the Jews want to stone Him? They themselves thought His
purpose was the same as God's. Verse 33 of John 10 explains that they wanted to stone Him because of
blasphemy, because He claimed to be God! The New World Translation uses the words "a god", but as
explained earlier, theos is a definite noun and without the article denotes divine essence. As John 5:18 reveals,
the fact that Jesus called God His Father meant to the Jews that He was making Himself "equal with God".
I have spent much time discussing the deity of Christ because this is the central point of the Scriptures. God
Himself came to save men from their sins. The Bible teaches we are to turn to Christ as Jehovah God for
salvation. Pardon from sin comes by (1) recognizing that you are a sinner in need of God's grace (Rom.3:10, 23;
Jer.17:9; Eccles.7:20; Eph.2:1, 2; 1 John 1:8); (2) realizing that Jesus Christ came to earth for the explicit
purpose of dying as a substitute for you (Isa.53:6; 1 Pet.2:24; 3:18), bearing the penalty of your sins Himself;
and (3) receiving Jesus Christ into your heart as your Saviour (Acts 16:30, 31; John 1:12; 3:16, 36; 5:24; 6:47;
Acts 4:12; Rom.10:13).
Christ came to do more than just atone for Adam's sin and to restore "perfect human life with it's rights and
earthly prospects" (Let God Be True, p. 96). He came to forgive sins (Eph.1:7), to give eternal life (John 10:28;
17:2), to justify us (declare us righteous) by His grace (Rom.3:24), to die for our sins (1 Pet.2:24; 3:18;
Rom.5:6, 8), to reconcile us to Himself (remove the enmity between man and God) (Rom.5:10), to redeem
(ransom or purchase) us from the penalty and power of sin (Gal.4:4, 5; Eph 1:7), and to make us Children of
God (John 1:12).
Forgiveness of sins does not come by trying to pass the test Adam failed or to maintain "integrity" (as the
August 15, 1956 issue of the Watch Tower suggests). By attempting to keep integrity or by works of the law,
"no flesh will be declared righteous before Him" (Rom.3:20, New World Translation).
How then can a sinful man appear righteous in the sight of God? The Scriptures say it "is as a free gift that they
are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release of the ransom paid by Jesus Christ.
God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood" (Rom.3:24-25, New World
Translation). On the basis of Christ's atonement we can be pardoned from all our sin and declared righteous in
Christ. "By means of him (Christ) we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the
forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of undeserved kindness" (Eph.1:7, New World
Translation).
You can have forgiveness of sins and be perfectly righteous in God's sight by accepting Christ's atonement for
you, by receiving Him as your personal Saviour. Though you are a sinner who has fallen short of God's glory
(Rom.3:23), you can be pardoned of your sins and declared righteous in Christ by placing your faith (trust) in
Him. Millions who have done this through the centuries have experienced a miraculous change of heart and life
as He promised. Will you turn to Him now, asking Him to forgive you of your sins and be your Saviour?
Roy B Zuck author

Hello Boanerges,

First, the New World Translation is not "an extreme corruption", but to the contrary, is one of the most accurate Bible translations available. It takes into account both nuances and word understandings of both the Hebrew and Koine Greek languages of which many Bibles do not. For example, at Matthew 7:7, many Bibles follow the rendering of the King James Bible, reading: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"(American Standard, Young's Bible, Darby's Bible, Weymouth's New Testament, Webster's Bible, Montgomery New Testament)

These do not take into account that Jesus was speaking in the imperfect tense, whereby action is in a continuing state, not complete (or one-time deal) like the King James Bible renders it. Hence, Jesus said that one should "keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you."

Indeed, the question is ' does the Bible substantiate that Jesus "was and always will be beneath Jehovah" and "Christ and God are no co-equal " ? Yes it does ! You mention that the Bible affirms the "deity of Christ". And yes, the Bible does affirm the "deity of Christ", that he is indeed "a god" for the word "deity" means "god or goddess: a god, goddess, or other divine being." (Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

He surely is "Lord and Christ".(Acts 2:36) However, Jesus is not God Almighty. John 1:18 confirms this, whereby the apostle John says that "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."(New World Translation) You will question the accuracy of this from the New World Translation.

Several of the oldest known Greek manuscripts, P75 (Papyrus Bodmer 14,15, Greek., c. 200 C.E., Geneva, Switzerland) and P66 (Papyrus Bodmer 2, Greek, c. 200 C.E, Geneva, Switzerland) Vatican Manuscript 1209 of the fourth century (Vatican City, Rome) testify to the accuracy of the New World Translation, whereby Jesus is spoken of as "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father."

Most Bibles say "only-begotten Son", because to render John 1:18 precisely as the most ancient Greek manuscripts would jeopardize their foundation of the trinity. Only later manuscripts read "only-begotten Son," such as the Codex Alexandrine (British Museum), the Latin Vulgate, Curetonian Syriac (Cambridge, England) and Codex Emphraemi rescriptus (Paris, France) of the fifth century C.E.

You mention Matthew 1:23, that it intimates that Jesus is God since he is called "Immanuel", meaning "God With Us". This does not prove that Jesus is God, for please explain how this applied in the 8th century B.C.E., when Isaiah wrote this down at Isaiah 7:14 ? Who was the "Immanuel", "the boy", that fulfilled the minor portion of the prophetic statement when Isaiah wrote it down, when "before the boy will know how to reject the good and the bad, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely" ? (Isa 7:16) Was "the boy" God ?

You use the example of Thomas as saying to Jesus: "My Lord and my God."(John 20:28) However, whose words have more authority, that of Thomas, an imperfect person, or that of Jesus, a perfect man, who "committed no sin" ?(1 Peter 2:22) You're saying that Jesus words: "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17), has less weight of authority than Thomas words.

It is truly a distortion of justice to see individuals, though professing to follow Christ, accept an imperfect man's words over the perfect man's Jesus words. Basically what you are saying is that Jesus was either a liar or did not know what he was talking about, but that we should give heed to Thomas words as having more "truth" than Jesus own words. Who are you kidding ? How can you call Jesus "your Lord and Savior" and relegate him below Thomas in authority ?

Using John 1:48 and saying that this intimates that Jesus ' knows all things', simply because he knew who Nathanael was is “putting the horse before the cart." Have you not read where Jesus said that ‘he did know the day and hour’ as to when the “great tribulation” would begin, but “only the Father” at Matthew 24:36. ? How then can Jesus be God and yet be incomplete as to his knowledge ?

In addition, have you not read where Jesus told his disciples, concerning ‘ restoring the kingdom’(Acts 1:6), that he told them: “It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority;”(Acts 1:7, Darby’s Bible) How then, could Jesus be God and yet be unaware of the “times and seasons”, but only the Father has knowledge of these ?

And Micah 5:2 does not say that Jesus is “eternal”, for the Hebrew word used there is ‘oh·lam, meaning “hidden time”, and is properly rendered as “time indefinite”, and not the Hebrew word adh, properly rendered as “forever”. According to Hebrew authority William Gesenius, ‘oh·lam means “hidden time, i. e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament adds: “With the preposition ‘ad, the word can mean ‘into the indefinite future.’” Both Hebrew words are used at Psalms 10:16, whereby they are clearly distinguished.

Also to use Matthew 28:18, and then saying that Jesus is “all powerful” does not prove that he is God, for had you examined this Scripture more closely, and were willing to reason, then you could have recognized that Jesus said that “all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” If Jesus was God, would ‘ all authority have been given him ‘ ? You obviously failed to listen to what King Nebuchadnezzar had said upon his return from insanity, concerning God, that “all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. And there exists no one that can check his hand or that can say to him, ‘What have you been doing?’ “(Dan 4:35)

There is no need to discuss Greek grammar, for what Jesus and the apostles said is very clear, not allowing Colwell’s rule (1933) to set the tone for Greek grammar with regard to a “definite predicate nominative.” When a parent tells his or her son to rake the yard, should the child dissect what the parents have said into various components of a sentence and then maybe do it ?

And at John 13:3, reasonable individuals can readily recognize that Jesus “came forth from God and was going to God,” despite the lack of a definite article in the first expression of "God." If Jesus was God, then would John have said that Jesus was "going to God" ? Even an elementary child can understand what it means to ' go to someone.'

At John 1:1, many are determined to equate "the Word" with "God" and not "a god", despite the fact that John 1:18 says that "no man has seen God at any time" and separates God from the "only-begotten god." If Jesus is God, then John was lying, for thousands saw Jesus walk the face of the earth. However, John spoke the "truth", for he wrote that "these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God", and not God.(John 20:31)

I hope that Roy B.Zuck is pleased with your quoting him (word for word), in his letter against Jehovah's Witnesses in 1973, instead of being able to defend the trinity yourself.
 
Last edited:
First, the New World Translation is not "an extreme corruption

That bible was translated with only a Strong's Concordance and a very limited understanding of the original language- this is a recipe for serious error. While it is at best a bad paraphrase there is also evidence of purposeful tampering and then there is the "re-translating " included in multiple revisions.
When man "re-writes" the Word of God to fit his doctrine then all you have left is the word of man.
Since you are basing your theology on this corruption it is impossible to come to any real understanding of the truth of God's Word. Perhaps that is why He allowed you here to find the reality of God's Word and love. I will be praying for you.

PS: I hope you will give more thought to the article I posted for you, below is another helpful article that shows some of the more obvious errors in the NWT.


The New World Translation (1950)
A Corrupt sectarian Paraphrase!

The Only Bible the Jehovah's Witnesses will trust!

Witnesses forbidden to use the Bible alone!


Is the NWT the mark of the beast???

666


"Their standard hardbound black bible (NWT) which I think was published in 1981, it has 1,666 pages. Count for yourselves from cover to cover, I was more than a little surprised."

What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

1. Dr. Bruce M.
2. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature) Dr. William
3. Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible
4. should not be translated." "Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had
5. misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation) Dr. Julius
6. Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'" "I have never read any New Testament
7. so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137) the
translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)


We speak the truth in Love...

Like the Mormon's Bible, the NWT was translated with help of the Holy Spirit: (inspiration)

If you notice the very significant Watchtower quote below, they do not claim the translators knew Greek and Hebrew, only that they were "experienced" and "anointed". By experienced, they mean that they had been JW's for a long time and would tow the party line. By "anointed", they mean inspired by the Holy Spirit. So not only do JW's believe that the Watchtower is inspired, they believe the NWT is translated by inspiration. This is the same claim that Joseph Smith made when he translated the Book of Mormon.


1. "a translation committee of experienced anointed Christians was organized to produce the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures in English." (Watchtower, October 15, 1997, How the Bible Came to Us, p 11-12)
2. Mr. Franz was asked to explain how "translations and interpretations of the Bible were made." Franz replied that they "passed to the Holy Spirit who, invisible, communicates with Jehovah's Witnesses - and the publicity department." (Franz is the head of the Publicity Department).

A. The first thing you say to a JW's before you study with them is that you not accept anything from the NWT as authoritative. But they won't accept any other Bible in their heart, even though they might allow you to use one.

1. The NWT is so extremely biased & perverted, it is questionable if any Hebrew or Greek scholars worked on it. It is nothing more than a sectarian paraphrase, not a translation.
2. No one uses the NWT except the Jw's.
3. Jw's on the other hand will use nothing else!
4. It has undergone many revisions.
5. It is not a translation, but a corrupt sectarian paraphrase

B. Unlike every major translation, the NWT paraphrase was produced under a cloud of secrecy.

1. The Organization made this statement about the NWT: "It is the truth rather than its servant that should be honored and proclaimed," Russell wrote in 1900, adding: "There is too much disposition to credit truth to the preacher, forgetful that all truth is of God, who uses one or another servant in its proclamation as it may please him." This is the principal reason why writers and translators of Watch Tower publications, as well as members of the New World Bible Translation Committee, choose to remain anonymous. (Awake, Oct 22, 1989, p. 20)
2. During a court trial in Glasgow, Scotland in 1954, Franz was asked by the Government lawyer just who the translators were. Franz replied under oath: "That is an absolute secret. It will never be revealed now or even after death." Only someone with something to hide would be so intent on secrecy. He was asked: "What happens if somebody submits a translation. Does the committee examine it? Mr. Franz: No. I give it my 0.K., then the President, Mr. N. H. Knorr, has the last word." He was further asked to explain how "translations and interpretations of the Bible were made." Franz replied that they emanated from God: "passed to the Holy Spirit who, invisible, communicates with Jehovah's Witnesses - and the publicity department." (Franz is the head of the Publicity Department).

C. The NWT translators were: Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, Fred Franz, M. Henschel

* "Fred Franz however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew." ["Crisis of Conscience"; by Raymond Franz; Commentary Press, Atlanta; 1983 edition; footnote 15; page 50.]
* Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all. They had only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek.
* What we are left with is a very inexperienced translating committee that twisted Scripture to make it fit the Society's doctrine.

D. Original published statements to document this can be found in

1. Raymond Franz', Crisis of Conscience, p. 50 (Franz, Knorr, Schroeder, Gangas),
2. William Cetnar's, Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses, pp. 68-9 (Franz, Knorr, Schroeder, Gangas, Henschel)
3. Jerry Bergman's, Jehovah's Witnesses and Kindred Groups, p. 39 (Franz).
4. Interestingly, both Cetnar and Bergman set forth material that indicates that the well-known Bible Scholar Edgar J. Goodspeed had some input to the NWT. Cetnar indicates that Goodspeed was not terribly pleased with the result.

E. Examples of mistranslation within NWT in order to teach their that Jesus was created:

First and most obviously to anyone who has looked at the NWT is the appearance of JEHOVAH in the NT portion over two hundred times where the Greek text has KURIOS (LORD). The second way in which the NWT has systematically abused the divine names or titles is in its handling of text in which Jesus is called God (Isa 9:6; John 1:1,18; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1; 1 John 5:20; Acts 20:28), of these, the NWT translates four so that Jesus is not called God at all (Rom 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1), and two so that he is "A god" or "god" (John 1:1, 18). The remaining three texts (Isa 9:6; John 20:28; 1 John 5:20), are not mistranslated, but are interpreted so that either Jesus is not called God at all or he is called God only in a lesser sense. In short, wherever possible, the NWT translates texts that call Jesus God in such a way as to keep the text from making that identification!

Genesis 1:2


"Spirit of God" changed to "God's active force."


The revision modifies the original noun with a more impersonal form as the JWs reject the orthodox Christian belief in the personality of the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 3:14


"I am" changed to "I shall prove to be."


The revision clouds the connection between God's self proclaimed title and Jesus' proclamation of being the same in John 8:58, as the JW rejects the deity of Jesus.

Numbers 1:52


"Under his own standard" changed to "by his [three-tribe] division."


The Hebrew word degal translated as "standard" literally means flag or banner. Since the JWs regard saluting a flag as an act of idolatry, the text has been altered according to their doctrinal bias. (Same revision found in Num. 2:2, 3, 10, 18, 25; 10: 14, 18, 22, 25.)

Isaiah 43:10


"Nor will there be one after me" changed to "after me there continued to be none."


The original future tense of the verb indicates that there will never be another being sharing in God's divinity. The altered tense suggests credibility to the JW doctrine of Jesus' becoming a "mighty god" while still being less than Jehovah in nature. (See the John 1: I discussion below for another expression of this JW distortion.)

Ecclesiastes 12:7


"The spirit returns" changed to "the spirit itself returns."


The passage indicates the return of a human spirit to God after death. Since the JWs believe in an unconscious state after death, "itself' has been inserted to suggest a more impersonal reference to spirit.

Matthew 2:11


"Bowed down and worshipped him" changed to "did obeisance to it"


The JWs evade recognizing Jesus as worthy of worship as a divine being by altering the form of honor that he receives from men and angels. The Greek word proskuneo literally means "worship." The use of "obeisance" is a NWT adaptation. (Same revision found in Matt. 8:2; 9:18, 14:33; 15:25; 28:9, 17; Mark 5:6; 15:19; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6.)

Matthew 5:19


"Least in the kingdom of heaven" changed to "least in relation to the kingdom of the heaven."


The passage indicates that a disobedient believer who sins can still find forgiveness and eternal life. The JWs believe heaven is reserved for only 144,000 specially designated servants of God. The revision suggests more separation between these groups through a status hierarchy.

Matthew 25:46


"Eternal punishment" changed to "everlasting cutting-off."


The Greek word kolasis translated "punishment" indicates continuous torment, but the NWT revision suggests "termination," as the JWs promote the doctrine of annihilationism regarding condemned souls.

Mark 1:4


"Baptism of repentance" changed to "baptism [in symbol] of repentance. "


Nothing in the original Greek text justifies the insertion of "in symbol." The revision undermines the significance of John the Baptist's ministry, the Jewish meaning of baptism and the Christian sacrament of baptism in contrast to the more regimented JW baptism requirements.

Luke 12:8


"Acknowledges me" changed to "confesses union with me."


The addition of "union" suggest something more than what the original Greek actually states and adds further credibility to the NWT distortion presented in John 6:56 below.

Luke 23:43


'Today you will be with me" changed to "I tell you today, You will be with me."


Jesus assured the thief on the cross that their spirits would soon enter the spiritual/heavenly realm together. As the JWs reject the belief in the conscious survival of the human spirit after death, their revision suggests that "today" deals with the time of the statement rather than the relocation of their spirits.

John 1:1


"Word was God" changed to "Word was a god."


The JWs reject the orthodox Christian belief in the deity of Jesus. The revision asserts that Jesus was someone other than God Himself.

John 1:12


"Believe" changed to "exercise faith."


The orthodox Christian doctrine of spiritual justification and rebirth before God by belief in Jesus is in conflict with the JW doctrine of salvation by works (i.e., obedience to their organization). The revision attempts to describe salvation as a continuous process rather than a radical encounter and transition (Same revision found in John 3:16, 18; 6:29; Rom. 4:3, 10:4, 9, 10.)

John 6:56


"Remains in me" changed to "remains in union with me."


The mystical union between the individual human spirit and the Spirit of Jesus is obscured by restructuring "in" with a compound form. The substitution implies more separation between a Christian and Jesus. (Same revision found in John 14:20; Rom. 8:1, 2, 10; 12:5; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 3:28; Eph. 1:13*; 2:10, 13, 15, 21, 22; 3:6; Col. 1:14*, 16*, 27; 2:6, 10*, 11, 12*; 3:3; 1 Thes. 4:16; 5:18; 1 John 3:24; 4:4; 5:20. Verses with an asterisk (*) indicate where the revision uses "by means of" or "in relationship to" rather than "in union with.")

John 8:58


"I am" changed to "I have been."


Same intent as described in Exodus 3:14 above.

John 14:14


"IF YOU ask [me] anything in my name, I will do it."

"me" is omitted to deny the fact we pray to Jesus.


John 14:14 should also be mentioned. In the NWT this reads; "IF YOU ask anything in my name, I will do it." The Greek text in the KIT, however, has ME after ask, so that it should be translated; "If you ask ME anything in my name, I will do it." It is true that some later Greek manuscripts omitted this word, but most of the earlier ones include it, and most modern editions of the Greek NT include it. At the very least, the NWT ought to have mentioned this in a note!

John 14:17


"Beholds him or knows him" changed to "beholds it or knows it."


The revision ignores the context of the pronoun with the Comforter role in the preceding verse to deny the personality of the Holy Spirit.

John 17:5


"Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you" changed to "glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you."


The original text reflects the shared deity of God the Father and Jesus before the creation of the world, but the revision suggests different natures as implied by different states of glory.

John 17:21


"Are in me" changed to "are in union with me."


The original statement by Jesus indicates his shared deity with the Father. The revision undermines this by suggesting a greater separation between them.

Acts 10:36


"Lord of all" changed to "Lord of all [others]."


The revision suggests that even though Jesus is highly honored, he is still one among many of God's created beings. (Similar revisions found in Rom. 8:32; Phil. 2:9; Col. 1: 16-17.)

Acts 20:28


They change "God purchased the church with His own blood" to God purchased the church with the blood of His son"


Wrath and indignation will come to every Jw from the Governing Body, who even suggests God purchased the church with His own blood... the blood of Jesus... who is God!

Romans 2:29


"By the Spirit" changed to "by spirit."


Although the definite article 'the" does not literally appear in the Greek, it is implied by the form that (pneuma) appears in. The revision, however, translates pneuma in a more abstract form to evade the reality of the Holy Spirit. (Same revision found in Rom. 15:19; Eph. 2:22; 3:5; Titus 3:5; James 2:26; 2 Peter 1:21.)

Rom 8:1


"Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation," Which omits the word NOW.


The NWT omits key words when to include them may contradict JW doctrine. The most glaring example is Rom 8:1 "Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation," Which omits the word NOW. This omission is evidently motivated by the fact that the JW's do not believe anyone can claim NOW to be free of condemnation.

Romans 8:23a


"Have the firstfruits of the Spirit" changed to "have the firstfruits, namely the spirit."


This represents another form of disguising the separate personality of the Holy Spirit as in Rom. 2:29 above. The original text refers to the derivatives of the Spirit, but the revision identifies the spirit as a derivative.

Romans 8:23b


"The redemption of our bodies" changed to "the release from our bodies by ransom."


This revision avoids the suggestion that there is continuity of either body or soul after death. Their teaching that the soul ceases to exist at the death of the body precludes the ownership of, or relationship to, a body that must be redeemed.

Romans 8:28


"All things" changed to "all his works."


The revision undermines the sovereignty of God by suggesting that He controls only the things He is directly involved in doing. This implies that God does not work ALL things together for the good of those that love God, but only those things which he himself does, over which he has control.

Romans 8:29


"Those God foreknew" changed to "those whom he gave his first recognition."


The revision obscures the nature of God's knowledge and power as a first recognition may or may not be foreknowledge.

Romans 9:5


"Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!" changed to "Christ, [sprang] according to the flesh: God who is over all, [be] blessed forever."


The direction proclamation that Christ is God is obscured by the altered text.

Romans 10:13


"Lord" changed to "Jehovah."


This revision obscures the fact that the Lord referred to in verse 13 is the same Lord called Jesus in verse 9. Since the JWs reject the deity of Jesus, the revision is made accordingly. The Greek word, kurios, translated "Lord" has been revised to "Jehovah" over 200 times in the NWT. The JWs insist that this is the only valid title for God, even though Greek-speaking Jews used "Lord" and "God" in place of "Yahweh" (the source of "Jehovah") throughout their Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Furthermore, the Bible contains dozens of names for God other than Lord, Yahweh, or Jehovah.

Romans 13:1


"Authorities that exist have been established by God" changed to "authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God."


Since the JW regard saluting a flag, military service and similar forms of submission to government as idolatry, they have added words to the text to weaken the proclaimed authority of government.

1 Corinthians 6:19


"Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit" changed to "the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit."


To avoid recognition of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer, the revision modifies "body" to a more collective form in harmony with the opposing JW doctrine.

1 Corinthians 10:4


"The Rock was Christ" changed to "that rock-mass meant the Christ."


The passage depicts the preincarnate Jesus exhibiting his divine nature by being present many centuries earlier. This revision tries to conceal his eternal nature with a more figurative interpretation of "the Rock."

1 Corinthians 12:11


"As he determines" changed to "as it wills."


The NWT finds many ways to disguise the personality of the Holy Spirit. In this case the third person pronoun exercising individual conscience and will is replaced with an impersonal pronoun.

1 Corinthians 14:14-16


"Spirit" changed to "[gift of the] spirit."


Like several other Biblical passages, this one indicates the distinctive presence of the human spirit as distinguished from the mind and body. The JWs evade these distinctions and try to disguise them with related revisions.

The phrase GIFT OF THE is added in brackets five times, changing "SPIRIT" to "[GIFT OF THE] SPIRIT." The NWT elsewhere frequently paraphrases the simple word SPIRIT, especially when referring to the immaterial aspect of human nature, to avoid the implication that such a spirit has a reality distinct from the body. For instance, Heb 12:19 "the Father of spirits" (or the spirits) becomes "the Father of OUR SPIRITUAL LIFE." In Gal. 6:18 "your spirit" is paraphrased "THE SPIRIT YOU SHOW." Similar rewording's are introduced in passages where the simple translation of "spirit" or "Spirit" might imply that God's Spirit is a person, contrary to the JW's doctrine that the Holy Spirit is God's "active force." So, Jude's description of certain men as "not having the Spirit" (or more literally, not having spirit") is rendered "NOT HAVING SPIRITUALITY" (Jude 19).

1 Corinthians 15:2


"By this gospel you are saved" changed to "through which YOU are also being saved."


Similar to the Acts 16:30 revision above, this one again obscures the completeness of salvation by grace. The JW's salvation exists as an extended process ("being saved") with the outcome being uncertain until final judgment before Jehovah.

Galatians 6:18


"Your spirit" changed to "the spirit YOU [show]."


Similar to the I Cor. 14 revision above, this one attempts to obscure the reality of the individual human spirit by presenting it more as an attitude of action than an entity.

Philippians 1:23


"To depart and be with Christ" changed to "the releasing and the being with Christ."


Paul's eagerness indicates that the believer's spirit goes immediately into Christ's presence at death. The revision suggests that death and being with Christ are two separate steps in an extended process, as the JWs believe in soul sleep (i.e., the unconscious state of the human spirit awaiting the resurrection).

In Phil 1:23-24 several words are added without brackets that, along with some other changes, completely alter the structure and thereby also the meaning of the text. The passage reads in the NWT (with added words in brackets so you can see here) "I am under pressure from [THESE] two things; [BUT WHAT] I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, [TO BE SURE], is far better." There are other errors as well, but the additions indicate here clearly change the meaning so as to avoid the test's implication that Paul would be with Christ after death. Some of the additions in brackets in the NWT so clearly change the meaning it is a wonder that more JW's don't question them? In 1Cor 14:12-16 the phrase GIFT OF THE is added in brackets five times, changing "spirit" to "[GIFT OF THE] spirit." The result is that Paul's contrast between his own personal "spirit" and his "mind" is removed. To assure that this contrast is missed, the word "MY" is also added in brackets before "MIND" twice in verse 15 but not before SPIRIT. Thus the simple contrast between "the spirit" and "the mind" (or "my spirit" and "my mind" NASB) is changed to "the [GIFT OF THE] spirit" and [MY] mind."

Phil 2:6


"Although Jesus existed in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself" (He grasped equality and let it go to become a man) has been changed to "although Jesus was existing in God's form, he gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."


NWT teaches that Jesus was never equal with God nor did he ever grasp at it. Notice the word seizure, which implies grabbing that which is not yours to grab ie equality. If Jesus was created by God, why would He be considered humble for not thinking of himself as equal to God. That is not humility, but reality! However since Jesus was equal to God, it would require great humility to give up his status as God and become a man through Mary.







From the Interactive Bible Webpage
 
Part 2 from the Interactive Bible Webpage:

Col 1:16-20


the word "[other]" has been added 5 times where it is not in the Greek


Awful embarrassing for Jw’s to read this verse with the [other] removed. Why it would mean Jesus was not a creature but God. By adding "other" to "all other things" Jw’s attempt to avoid the obvious original intent of the Greek that Jesus is above all created things implying Jesus is not a creature!

The addition of the word OTHER is usually justified by an appeal to such texts as Luke 11:41-42 and Luke 13:2,4, where the word OTHER is also added after the word ALL. However, in these passages (and in others were the same practice is rightly followed) the addition of the word OTHER doesn't change the meaning, but simply makes it read smoother. In Col 1:16-20, however, whether one adds "OTHER" makes a great deal of difference to the meaning! What is so often noticed is that the NWT does this same thing in several other passages as well (Acts 10:36; Rom 8:32; Phil 2:9). In Rom 8:32, the word OTHER is not even placed in brackets, contrary to the work's stated practice. In all of these text, the intent seems to be to undermine the implication of the text that Jesus Christ is God.

Colossians 1:19


"His fullness" changed to "fullness."


The definite Greek article (to), translated "his," indicates that Jesus shares the Father's divine nature as also shown in Col. 2:9. The revisions evade the truth by concealing the similarity of the two passages.

Also notable is Col 1:19 "because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him." Here the little word THE is omitted before FULLNESS. This is significant, because NWT renders "ALL FULLNESS" is ambiguous, whereas "ALL THE FULLNESS" clearly refers to the fullness of God's own being (compare Col 2:9).

Col 2:6-12





Again, in Col 2:6-12 "IN HIM" and "IN WHOM" (en auto, en ho) becomes "IN UNION WITH HIM" (v.6) "IN HIM" (V.V. 7,9) "BY MEANS OF HIM" (V. 10) and "BY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM" (V.V..11,12). These variations serve only JW doctrine! They have no other purpose, they undermine the unity of the passage, which is that Christian life consists solely of a supernatural relationship with God through faith in Christ. There are many other passages where IN is paraphrased to avoid the otherwise clear meaning of the text. For example, In Matt. 5:19 IN becomes "IN RELATION TO" so as to avoid the passages teaching that some who disobey the law's commandments and teach others to do so will nevertheless be accepted "in the kingdom of heaven" (which JW's believe will be restricted to the 144,000 special chosen and sanctified believers).

Colossians 2:9


"The fullness of deity" changed to "the fullness of the divine quality."


The Greek theotes, translated "deity," literally means divine essence or divinity. As the JWs reject the divine nature of Jesus, a revision is inserted to suggest that Jesus is limited to only divine-like characteristics.

I Timothy 4:1


"The Spirit" changed to "the inspired utterance."


This revision attempts to obscure the reality and activity of the Holy Spirit by representing it as a message instead of an entity. (Similar revisions found in 1 John 4:1, 3, 6 with "expression" being utilized in place of "utterance.") A straightforward "the SPIRIT says" would too obviously imply the personality of the "Spirit".

Titus 2:13


"Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" changed to "the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus."


Similar to the Rom. 9:5 revision shown above, a distinct proclamation of Jesus as God is obscured by the altered text. (Similar rewording also found in 2 Peter 1:1.)

Hebrews 1:6


"But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him' ." (New World Translation, 1950, 1961, 1970 editions,


The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to read, "do obeisance to" rather than "worship". This change remains to this day, even though the original word chosen by the 4 NWT translators, was accurate to the Greek. However the Watchtower society was losing so may new converts because of the word "worship" (only God gets worshipped) that they did the typically dishonorable thing and chose the obscure unknown word "obeisance" to complete the deception of new converts.

Hebrews 1:8


"Your throne, 0 God" changed to "God is your throne."


The revision avoids addressing the Son, Jesus, as God to validate the JWs' rejection of his divine nature.

Hebrews 9:14


"The eternal Spirit" changed to "an everlasting spirit."


Similar to the Rom. 2:29 revision above, the switching of the article before the adjective represents the work of the Holy Spirit in a more indirect/ impersonal manner.

Hebrews 12:9


"Father of our spirits" changed to "Father of our spiritual life."


Similar to the I Cor. 14 revision shown above, this one tries to obscure the distinctive reality of human spirits by replacing them with a more abstract noun.

Hebrews 12:23


"The spirits of righteous men" changed to "the spiritual lives of righteous ones."


This revision represents the same noun-switching as described in Heb. 12:9 above.

Hebrews 12:28


"We are receiving a kingdom" changed to "we are to receive a kingdom."


An orthodox Christian understanding of the Kingdom recognizes it as primarily established through Jesus' victorious death, then further through post-resurrection displays of his power, and perpetually through the addition of new believers into God's family. The JWs teach that Jesus' Kingdom did not begin until his invisible return in 1914. The form of the Greek word for "receiving" (paralambano) implies a current condition, but the revision suggests a future event according to the JW doctrine.

1 Peter 1:11


"Spirit of Christ in them was pointing" changed to "the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ."


Another example of the supernatural presence of Jesus in the life of a Christian is obscured again by this revision as the JW doctrinal view presents him as more limited.

I Peter 3:18-19


"By the Spirit, through whom" changed to "in the spirit. In this [state]."


Similar to several examples presented above, in this passage the presence and personality of the Holy Spirit is obscured with a more abstract representation of the Holy Spirit to accommodate the JW doctrine.

1 John 4:1-6


"Spirit" changed to "inspired expression"


Even clearer is 1 John 4:1-6. John has just stated that we know our union with God is secure "owing to the spirit which he gave us" (3:24). The next sentence in the NWT reads; "Beloved ones, believe not every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God" (4:1). One would never suspect from this rendering that "INSPIRED EXPRESSION" translates the same Greek word (pneuma) as "SPIRIT" in 3:24 (see 4:2,3,6). John's whole point is that although the Spirit's presence assures us of God's love, we are not to believe every "spirit" that claims to be from God but test each one by the teachings it prophets espouses. "Because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (4:1). The NWT obscures this point to avoid the implication that God's Spirit is a person rather than a force (just as the demonic spirits are personal entities and not impersonal forces, as the JW accept).

The same doctrinal bias can be seen in 1 Tim 4:1, where the NWT reads; However, the inspired utterance says...." A straightforward "the SPIRIT says" would too obviously imply the personality of the "Spirit".

Jude 19


"Have the Spirit" changed to "having spirituality."


Similar to Gal. 6:18 above, this revision attempts to obscure the separate presence of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 3:14


"Ruler of God's creation" changed to "beginning of the creation by God."


The altered prepositions distract from the sovereignty of Jesus indicated in the passage and suggests that the real power of creation was accomplished through the Father, as the JWs believe that Jesus is a created being.



We speak the truth in Love...
 
That bible was translated with only a Strong's Concordance and a very limited understanding of the original language- this is a recipe for serious error.

Say what! The original translation was around 250 bc into Greek. At that time there was a very large Greek speaking Jews in Egypt. The Septuagint LXX, was authorized by the Great Temple for the Greek speaking Jews in that region and in Egypt. It was translated from the Tanakh and the Torah. The Tanakh was the only canonized Jewish bible consisting of the Torah (what we know as the 1st five books of the OT) and the prophetic scrolls, the major prophets, and a few minor ones and canonized mid 400 bc. It was the LXX that was used to formulate the KJV of the bible. So a real bible is not just some cheesy hap-hazard assembly of poorly misunderstood phrases. If you have a Red Letter Edition (quotes made by Jesus) with Greek-Hebrew/Chaldee keys, grammatical helps & Strong's you have the single most accurate bible possible.

This was tested when the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed. Included with all the remnants found of scrolls was 1 scroll almost perfectly preserved, Isaiah's scroll which is the full book of Isaiah. It is no wonder Jesus used quotes from Isaiah, because he knew that discovery would be made, also verifying his teaching. Why do you think his words were quoted in Matthew 5:15-20, about teaching about the Law. Verse 19 is critical.
 
Say what! The original translation was around 250 bc into Greek. At that time there was a very large Greek speaking Jews in Egypt. The Septuagint LXX, was authorized by the Great Temple for the Greek speaking Jews in that region and in Egypt. It was translated from the Tanakh and the Torah. The Tanakh was the only canonized Jewish bible consisting of the Torah (what we know as the 1st five books of the OT) and the prophetic scrolls, the major prophets, and a few minor ones and canonized mid 400 bc. It was the LXX that was used to formulate the KJV of the bible. So a real bible is not just some cheesy hap-hazard assembly of poorly misunderstood phrases. If you have a Red Letter Edition (quotes made by Jesus) with Greek-Hebrew/Chaldee keys, grammatical helps & Strong's you have the single most accurate bible possible.

This was tested when the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed. Included with all the remnants found of scrolls was 1 scroll almost perfectly preserved, Isaiah's scroll which is the full book of Isaiah. It is no wonder Jesus used quotes from Isaiah, because he knew that discovery would be made, also verifying his teaching. Why do you think his words were quoted in Matthew 5:15-20, about teaching about the Law. Verse 19 is critical.

Boanerges was referring to the New World Translation of the Jehovah Witnesses.

I do agree with your thought about the Septuagint but disagree with you concerning KJV and Strong's accuracy.
 
Boanerges was referring to the New World Translation of the Jehovah Witnesses.

I do agree with your thought about the Septuagint but disagree with you concerning KJV and Strong's accuracy.

hi jiggyfly.
Yes, I read back a bit and saw what was being discussed. More than 60% of all the current bibles can be summed up with New World Translation. That is why they don't include the study guides, they cannot hold up to scrutiny at that level.

Please elaborate on what you disagree with. If it were just the KJV and Strong's it would be easy to understand what you are saying. Unless you believe that the scholars of the Great Temple were incapable of this task is the only thing in contention here. I hope you are not saying that.

As I said the traditional KJV was based on the XXL, the traditional KJV included the study aids I listed. Without those aids there is no way of understanding the errors made in the translation, most of which were punctuation and grammatical, not content. In my second paragraph I also said, with the full scroll of Isaiah and what they could assemble from the fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, verifies the accuracy of both the XXL and the traditional KJV with those study guides. There was also a 1st century text that also holds up to that scrutiny and that was written by the Messianic Jews, the MT or Messianic Text.
 
Last edited:
I disagree with you concerning KJV and Strong's. KJV is not very accurate and Strong's is not very exhaustive and has some areas of inaccuracy.

Jerome's translation of the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate is corrupt.
Erasmus turned to the Latin Vulgate in some cases due to missing texts. KJV used Erasmus' translation also and many of todays translations follow suit with errors in the KJV.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top