Trying to explain the trinity

[Joe in Arkansas]

Where is the trinity in scripture?

I have read with interest the many posts concerning the trinity doctrine. No one has shown any scripture that supports this concept that God is a trinity of personalities which combine to make the one God mentioned in scripture. I recently had a discussion on this subject and am quite familiar with it. Scripture says that God the Father has all power and authority and from Him, everything exists, including Christ. Christ is the beginning of the creation of God the Father.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

God the Father made Christ in His image (just as He is making us into His image). Christ was not always perfect. He had to be made perfect by the Father:

Heb 5:8-10 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Christ was made complete by the Father. Then, through Christ, God the Father made all of creation. When the time came, the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world. At the fullness of time, all will be in Christ. Christ will then turn over His Kingdom to the Father having accomplished His mission to save the world. Christ is the "beginning" (being made first) and He is the "ending" when all of the creation is "in Christ". Then, God the Father will be "all in all".

1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom of God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Christ is not equal to the Father in authority but is always subordinate to Him. However, Christ has been made into the "image" of the Father and when we see Christ, it can be said that we see the Father. Christ is the perfect visible representation of the Father. But I'll say again, Christ is not the Father nor is He of equal authority, nor has Christ always existed. Christ was created by the Father to fulfill His desires as they related to this creation. This creation is God the Father's but He created it all through Christ. Christ is the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

As for the Holy Spirit, that is the Spirit of God the Father. The Father gave the fullness of His Spirit to Christ who in turn sends an "earnest amount" of His Spirit to us at conversion. We will receive a fullness of His Spirit when we are resurrected. At that time, we will be sons and daughters of God made in His image, just as Christ is made in His image. After all, that is what God said in the beginning He was going to do:

Gen 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness; ...

Just as Christ and the Father are one, His church will likewise be one:

John 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

If the church is one as Christ and the Father are one, does that make the church part of the trinity?

I have an MS Word document that I wrote that better explains my understanding and supports it with scripture. However, since I am new to the forum, I cannot copy it into this post. If anyone is interested, I can email it to them. If it were not so long, I would retype it here. Please email me if you are interested.

By the way, I am not a member of any denomination or group. My understanding has come from what the Lord has shown me during my personal study of scripture.

Joe in Arkansas

 

[spirit1st]

Of Course in the Beginning He spoke though the WORD , which is and was JESUS
Nothing was ever Created without Him Speaking it and He speaks though HIS WORD! Jesus!
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


GOD says ? He made Man in HIS image !
We see we are three parts , But ONLY ONE BEING !

Just as Our CREATURE is!

Not three personalities !

Our three parts also can be doing three things at one time!
But All in unity!

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


As long as a person can see Jesus Christ as His son, I think its ok!

Personal I know , There is Only One God , one Creator and one Power! All the same being!


As far as us being like our LORD and being in HIM!

It is no problem, As I know Our new creature is made like our LORD JESUS CHRIST , Which Is Gods perfect image in our Spirit being!

Our Spirit desires line up perfectly w3ith His desires!

The true church needs too fast!

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Of Course in the Beginning He spoke though the WORD , which is and was JESUS
Nothing was ever Created without Him Speaking it and He speaks though HIS WORD! Jesus!
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


GOD says ? He made Man in HIS image !
We see we are three parts , But ONLY ONE BEING !

Just as Our CREATURE is!

Not three personalities !

Our three parts also can be doing three things at one time!
But All in unity!

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


As long as a person can see Jesus Christ as His son, I think its ok!

Personal I know , There is Only One God , one Creator and one Power! All the same being!


As far as us being like our LORD and being in HIM!

It is no problem, As I know Our new creature is made like our LORD JESUS CHRIST , Which Is Gods perfect image in our Spirit being!

Our Spirit desires line up perfectly w3ith His desires!

The true church needs too fast!

Dear Spirit1st,
I read your reply above but I am having trouble understanding the points you are trying to make. Here is what I think you are saying:

God does not have 3 personalities like the trinity doctrine says but He does have three parts. Mankind also has three parts. God's three parts are Christ (Word), Holy Spirit and ???. Mankind's 3 parts are spirit, body & soul.

If that is what you are saying, I will have to disagree. First of all,
1John 5:7 is not scripture. There are no Greek manuscripts that date prior to the 16th century that contain that verse. It was obviously added sometime around the 16th century to help give the trinity doctrine some scriptural support. Next, man is made up of 1. Spirit and 2. body. Those two put together creates a living soul. That is how scripture explains our makeup. When we die, our body returns to dust, our spirit returns to God and our soul is dead. When we are dead, we have no consciousness. Upon resurrection, we receive a new body and God places our spirit into it, giving life back to our soul. Our soul is our consciousness. Without a body, we have no consciousness. That is why our resurrection is so important. We would remain dead without it. From all that I just said though, I don't see how that relates to God being a trinity. God the Father is complete without Christ. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's spirit which He has also given to Christ and who, in turn, gives to us at conversion. But only an "earnest" of the spirit at that time. Upon our resurrection, we are given the fullness of God's Spirit. I don't see how we or God have three parts, nor do I know of any scripture that says so.

I appreciate your response and I hope I understood you correctly.

Joe in Arkansas

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Dear Joe in Arkansas,

I must say that I disagree with you saying that 1 John 5:7 is not scripture. If you say that then what is there to stop you saying that some other scripture is not scripture then another. The Bible explicitly states in Revelation that nobody is to add or take away from the Word of God. All scripture is inspired of God regardless of who and how many men wrote it (they all wrote it under His inspiration). Jesus Himself said that man should not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. In the beginning God gave Adam and Eve His Word to live by. So from beginning to end we see we are to live by His every Word and by His Word alone. Heaven and earth may pass away but His Word will never pass away!

As for the trinity, I believe there is only one God and He has manifested Himself through the Holy Spirit, through Melchisedec, through the one who came to Abraham tent's door with two angels (that both went to Sodom) and crucially through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the same person all the time. It's just like a play where there is one actor playing many parts. He comes on stage and plays a beggar then exits, then comes on again and plays a King, then goes off and comes back on playing a soldier. These are all different characters but yet there is only one person and one person alone who is playing those characters. In Revelation, John was told that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah had prevailed and he turned and saw a bleeding Lamb. Was He seeing another person? No, he was seeing the same person. If you'll notice also in Revelation it repeatedly refers to Him that sat on the throne and also says that one sat on the throne. There is no them! What I think is that people forget that God can do anything He wants to. In Isaiah it says that His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. When people try to work out God, they are simply stumbling in the darkness. God gave us His Word to live by and all that we are required to do is just believe. Only believe!

We need to believe with our hearts and not with our minds!

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Dear Joe in Arkansas,

I must say that I disagree with you saying that 1 John 5:7 is not scripture. If you say that then what is there to stop you saying that some other scripture is not scripture then another. The Bible explicitly states in Revelation that nobody is to add or take away from the Word of God. All scripture is inspired of God regardless of who and how many men wrote it (they all wrote it under His inspiration). Jesus Himself said that man should not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. In the beginning God gave Adam and Eve His Word to live by. So from beginning to end we see we are to live by His every Word and by His Word alone. Heaven and earth may pass away but His Word will never pass away!

As for the trinity, I believe there is only one God and He has manifested Himself through the Holy Spirit, through Melchisedec, through the one who came to Abraham tent's door with two angels (that both went to Sodom) and crucially through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the same person all the time. It's just like a play where there is one actor playing many parts. He comes on stage and plays a beggar then exits, then comes on again and plays a King, then goes off and comes back on playing a soldier. These are all different characters but yet there is only one person and one person alone who is playing those characters. In Revelation, John was told that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah had prevailed and he turned and saw a bleeding Lamb. Was He seeing another person? No, he was seeing the same person. If you'll notice also in Revelation it repeatedly refers to Him that sat on the throne and also says that one sat on the throne. There is no them! What I think is that people forget that God can do anything He wants to. In Isaiah it says that His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. When people try to work out God, they are simply stumbling in the darkness. God gave us His Word to live by and all that we are required to do is just believe. Only believe!

We need to believe with our hearts and not with our minds!

Dear Eagle_eyes,
Thank you for addressing my comments on the trinity. I really do appreciate it and for also giving me an opportunity to respond. I am new to forums so if I say something against the rules, I hope you will be gentle in correcting me.

I agree with most of what you said in your 1st paragraph about being careful not to add to or remove anything from God's word. In studying scripture, I usually use the KJV translation but I do so recognizing that it is not perfect. In fact, that translation has a few very serious flaws in it. Since the KJV's creation, did you know that it used to contain other books that were once considered "inspired" but have since been removed? It has also had over 1000 corrections made to it to remove errors and mistranslated words. So when you say that I should be careful, I am very careful. Scripture can only be found in the original Greek manuscripts. Studying from translations require study and research before establishing a doctrine. All of the translations into English are flawed, some significantly so. In fact, if you were to talk to a translator, that person would tell you that it is impossible to have a word for word translation of the bible. There are many Greek words that do not have an English equivalent. That means the translator must decide for himself what the verse is saying and restate in other words. This leaves open the likelihood that the translator will inject his preconceived beliefs into his translation. This has happened over and over again with the translations. The KJV though is probably one of the best, but study against the original Greek is absolutely necessary to avoid errors in understanding. The KJV bible that I use is a simple one, but even it, in the margin, has a warning on that verse. It says that 1Joh 5:7 is not found in any of the original Greek manuscripts prior to the 16th century. I did more research on it and came to the realization that it was "added" by someone in probably the 16th century to help support the trinity doctrine. Unfortunately, the KJV revisions have not removed it. Regardless, scripture instructs us to have at least a double witness of scripture to arrive at an understanding. There are no double witnesses of scripture for that verse.

On your 2nd paragraph, as you are aware, I do not completely agree with you. Did you know that Christ has His own throne and God the Father has His own?

Rev 3:21 To Him that overcometh wil I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne.

If they are the same person, this does not make any sense. Also, many scriptures say that Christ came out from the Father, that Christ is the son of the Father, that the Father is greater than the Son, that the Father sent the Son, etc. Clearly from scripture, Jesus is of lesser authority than the Father. If they were the same, then they would be of equal authority, but scripture never says that Christ is equal in authority to the Father. Also, at the start of Paul's letters, Paul takes great care to mention God the Father and Jesus Christ. He never mentions the Holy Spirit in this manner. As I pointed out previously, scripture says that Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God" and that He learned obedience and was made perfect. If Christ is the Father, then why would Christ need to learn obedience or need to be made perfect. If He needed to be made perfect, then it stands to reason that Christ was not perfect at some point. However, scripture says that He was perfect on earth, so Christ, prior to creating the world, went through a process that made Him perfect - a process that made Him learn obedience. Because He was then made perfect, He was ready to be the author of our salvation. And as you know, God plans everything from the foundation of the world. So this process Christ went through had to be complete prior to God using Christ to create all things.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Heb 5:8-10 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

I checked the Greek on the verses and they are translated correctly. The trinity doctrine is exposed has a false doctrine when held up the the light of these scriptures.

Scripture also says that God the Father is Jesus Christ's God:

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore...

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him;

If God the Father is Jesus' God, then it makes no sense that Jesus is that same God. Jesus has been fully made in the image of God the Father, and when you see Christ, you can say that you see God the Father but Christ is not God the Father, He is the Son of God the Father. Make no mistake, Jesus is God to us, He is just not of the same authority as God the Father. Just as God the Father is our God, He is also Jesus' God and creator.

This verse helps explain who Christ is also:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by Him.

From the verses above, we have learned that God the Father is the creator of all things, including Christ. Christ was created by the Father to be His visible image and through whom He would create all other things. Christ is the "great I Am" of the old testament who revealed Himself to Israel. God the Father has accomplished His will and is continuing to accomplish His will through Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ, we would have no way of knowing the Father. Christ and the Father are one, just as Christ and His church are one. They are not the same person but they are of the same Spirit (God the Father's Spirit) and are like minded and have the same character.

John 17:22 And the glory which though gave to me, I have given them; that they may be one; even as we are one.

Being one with the Father, does not mean that we are the Father nor does it mean that the Church is Jesus Christ in a different form. What it means is that we are of the same character and mind. This verse sums it up well for me:

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all.

When the Father's plan is finished, He will have many sons and daughters made in His image, having His Spirit and character, free from ever sinning again - fully made in the image of God the Father. Jesus Christ is the first and we "in Christ" will be the last. That is why Christ is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Everything about creation has to do with Jesus Christ. That is the way God the Father planned it. What a glorious future we all have.


May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[paganmystic]

I think the biggest obstacle to our understanding of the trinity is our inability to imagine 3 distinct persons in such unity that they can said to be one. In the world the closest comparison you might make is a corporation- where there are numerous individuals yet one conglomerate.

Interesting way of looking at the trinity. What I don't understand is way we cannot look at ourselves when exploring the issue?

We were created in God's image, right. We have a physical body, intellectual body and an emotional body. To be true Christians we must accept the Lord the same way, knowing he exists(intellectual acceptance), trusting in who Jesus is(emotional acceptance) and as for the the physical acceptance, our prayers and following Jesus' teachings in the Gospel(all 4 books).

Only this total acceptance leaves us open to the Spirit to fill us, therefore allowing the Spirit to lead our life as both a comforter and teacher, as we are told in John 14 & 16. Otherwise we are no different than the parable about the blind leading the blind, and saying we are a Christian is merely a word and nothing more. Also with that total acceptance our life does literally change, you are not prone to be judgmental, liar or arrogant. Nor will the hateful attitude of those around you, effect you. In fact, patience, acceptance and trust will always be the path you will follow, it will also draw others to you either in their acceptance or disbelief.

Your brother in Christ

 

[StopPolloition]

Paganmystic, Very good points. Very well said. :shade:

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Interesting way of looking at the trinity. What I don't understand is way we cannot look at ourselves when exploring the issue?

We were created in God's image, right. We have a physical body, intellectual body and an emotional body. To be true Christians we must accept the Lord the same way, knowing he exists(intellectual acceptance), trusting in who Jesus is(emotional acceptance) and as for the the physical acceptance, our prayers and following Jesus' teachings in the Gospel(all 4 books).

Only this total acceptance leaves us open to the Spirit to fill us, therefore allowing the Spirit to lead our life as both a comforter and teacher, as we are told in John 14 & 16. Otherwise we are no different than the parable about the blind leading the blind, and saying we are a Christian is merely a word and nothing more. Also with that total acceptance our life does literally change, you are not prone to be judgmental, liar or arrogant. Nor will the hateful attitude of those around you, effect you. In fact, patience, acceptance and trust will always be the path you will follow, it will also draw others to you either in their acceptance or disbelief.

Your brother in Christ

Dear Paganmystic,
Your comments have a smooth sound to them but much of your understanding is not scriptural. There is no magic formula of what we must do for the Lord to use us or for us to be lead by the Spirit. It is the Lord who directs our paths and the Lord who makes us into whatever vessel He desires to suit His own purposes. We are but filthy rags - blind, miserable, wretched, naked and poor. If we are to become more that this, it is by the will of God and His work to change us. And as for being created in God's image, we are His "work in process". Until we receive the fullness of God's Spirit at the 1st resurrection, we are not complete nor fully made in His image. At present, we only have an "earnest" or downpayment of His Spirit and only then if He has chosen us to receive it. We are still sinful creatures. If we say differently, then we deceive ourselves. The Lord is the Savior and He will save us all, but only in "due season". We must be patient for Him to complete us. We are entirely His work and He is faithful & true to see us through to our completion - and that is to be fully made into the image of God. I thank the Lord that none of my salvation is in my own hands. He will not fail me nor anyone else for that matter. After all, He is the Savior of the world and not just a lucky few!

May the Lord Bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I don't believe there is any chance that the existance of the Trinity can be explained in human terms and that's the way God set things up at the beginning of creation:

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:9 NIV)

"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Cor 13:12b NIV)

SLE

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

I don't believe there is any chance that the existance of the Trinity can be explained in human terms and that's the way God set things up at the beginning of creation:

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:9 NIV)

"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Cor 13:12b NIV)

SLE

Dear SpiritLedEd,
If there is no chance of explaining the trinity in human terms, then how can you believe in it? All that really matters is what scripture has to say about it. However, there just isn't any support in scripture for the trinity doctrine. Per my previous posts on the subject, I have shown what scripture says about the relationship between God the Father and Christ. God the Father is the supreme, invisible, eternal, all powerful God. Jesus Christ was created by the Father and given the fullness of His Spirit so that He (the Father) could be shown to the world through His Son. Christ is separate just as you and I are separate. However, with Christ and the Father, they are one in character and mind because they are led by the same Spirit, just as we will be one with the Father someday when the work of Christ is finished. Christ was the beginning of God the Father's creative work and through Christ, all other things were created. Don't you believe that someday, we will be like Christ who is like the Father? Since I assume you do believe this, will this then make us part of the so called trinity? Of course, it will not but we will be part of God's family - His sons and daughters, fully made in His image. Can't you see that mankind is going through a birth process to become sons of God? As for the Holy Spirit, that is God the Father Spirit that fills Christ and the same Spirit that will fully fill all of mankind someday. I have shown in my previous posts many of the scriptures that say what I have said above. I have never found any scriptures that support a "trinity" as is the tradition of the church. If there were any, then they would conflict with the scripture that I have presented and scripture does not conflict with other scripture.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Jaareshiah]

That argument was old and inaccurate even before it passed through a kingdom hall.

We know that there is order in all God does so it is no surprise (and in fact was already posted in this thread) that Jesus is under the Father's authority but how would you go about explaining this verse:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
That is the Father (the ultimate source of truth) calling the Son Ho' Theos or Most High God.
As far as the Holy Spirit simply being "the power of God" how can one fellowship with impersonal power(Php 2:1 )? How an one grieve impersonal power (Eph 4:30)? how can one be led by impersonal power (Gal 5:18)? How can one be taught by an impersonal power (1Jn 2:27)? Why would a impersonal power have a Name (Matthew 28:19)?
How could you receive Counsel from an impersonal power (John 14:16-17)?

The Holy Spirit possesses will and consciousnesses ( Romans 8:27), (1 Corinthians 12:11). The Holy Spirit judges and reacts (Isaiah 63:10).
He is Comforter (John 14:16), Revelator (John 16:13), He testifies(John 15:26),He prays (Romans 8:26), He gives or witholds permission (Acts 16:6-7), He gives new life (<cite class="bibleref" title="JOHN 3:5* Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.">JOHN 3:5</cite>); these are all acts of a Person not an impersonal power.

God is a Spirit (Joh 4:24) and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God (Eph 4:30) therefore the Holy Spirit (although distinct in His personality and manifestation) is God.

Many, such as yourself, never give deep consideration, to what the Bible really teaches concerning God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit. These follow the same old "road" that the churches have tread on for centuries, that the trinity is "truth". When Jesus said that the "Father is greater than I am" at John 14:28, many will shove it aside. When Jesus said to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" at John 20:17, many just ignore it and instead try to use Thomas exclamation of "My Lord and my God" at John 20:28, as if it has more weight than Jesus own words. These are, in effect, calling Jesus a liar, that what he said in "ascending to my God" is far less authoritative than Thomas' expression.

These also discount Jesus own words, whereby he said in prayer just before his death: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) These fail to ask themselves: ' How could Jesus be God and yet call his Father -the only true God' and separated himself from this, speaking of himself as being "sent forth" by God ' ? In addition, these miss the mark of what Jesus said to Satan: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10)

Or of what the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, that "there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."(1 Cor 8:6) The using of Hebrews 1:8 according to the King James Bible does not lend weight to Jesus being God, but instead reveals how little of depth one has, for does not verse one say that "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"(Heb 1:1, 2, King James Bible)

Would Jesus have been "appointed heir of all things", if he was God and already had "all things" ? Furthermore, Paul says that Jesus "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."(Heb 1:3, 4) If Jesus is God, then is it reasonable that he could ' obtain a name more excellent than' the angels, seeing that God's name is always the highest ?(Gen 14:22)

And to be especially noted, is that Hebrews 1:9 says of the "Son", Jesus Christ, that because he "loved righteousness, and...hated lawlessness," "that is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” Reasoning people realize that Paul would not have quoted Psalms 45:7, specifically applying it to Jesus if he is God, with Jesus being spoken of being ' anointed by your God '.

Hence, Jesus has a God, his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, just as we do. Hence, verse 9 contradicts verse 8 if it reads as the King James Bible renders it. Yet, most will never question verse 8 in relation to verse 9 in the King James Bible, but will continue to accept it at face value. On the other hand, if there was a discrepancy with their bank account, this would draw an immediate response.

Concerning the holy spirit being a person, this does not "hold water" with the Bible, for again, how could it be a person that is God according to the churches, and yet Jesus "be full of holy spirit" ?(Luke 4:1) This one Scripture alone should cause one to reevaluate his belief on the holy spirit, for God does not fill another God. The Greek word for "spirit" is pneuma, and is also rendered as "wind" at John 3:8 and as "spirit" in the same Scripture. Why ? Because pneuma refers to a force that is invisible to human sight but gives evidence of force in motion, producing visible effects. Had the "holy spirit"(Greek hagios pneuma) been a person, then it could not have been used to express the word "wind", something invisible and not a person but that produces visible results.

And yes "God is a Spirit"(John 4:24), being invisible, but how can the "holy spirit" be spoken as God's "holy spirit", as being possessed by God, such as at Psalms 51:10,11, Isaiah 63:10,11, Luke 1:35, 41, if it God also ? Does God possess God ? Reasonable individuals will give new consideration to what the holy spirit is, that it is God's applied power, used in both creation and empowering loyal ones to accomplish his will. If the holy spirit is God, then how can a person be ' baptized with holy spirit and fire' ?(Matt 3:11) Just as fire is not a person, so likewise the holy spirit is not a person, but is God's active force or applied power.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Many, such as yourself, never give deep consideration, to what the Bible really teaches concerning God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit. These follow the same old "road" that the churches have tread on for centuries, that the trinity is "truth". When Jesus said that the "Father is greater than I am" at John 14:28, many will shove it aside. When Jesus said to Mary that he was "ascending to my God and your God" at John 20:17, many just ignore it and instead try to use Thomas exclamation of "My Lord and my God" at John 20:28, as if it has more weight than Jesus own words. These are, in effect, calling Jesus a liar, that what he said in "ascending to my God" is far less authoritative than Thomas' expression.

These also discount Jesus own words, whereby he said in prayer just before his death: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) These fail to ask themselves: ' How could Jesus be God and yet call his Father -the only true God' and separated himself from this, speaking of himself as being "sent forth" by God ' ? In addition, these miss the mark of what Jesus said to Satan: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10)

Or of what the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, that "there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."(1 Cor 8:6) The using of Hebrews 1:8 according to the King James Bible does not lend weight to Jesus being God, but instead reveals how little of depth one has, for does not verse one say that "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"(Heb 1:1, 2, King James Bible)

Would Jesus have been "appointed heir of all things", if he was God and already had "all things" ? Furthermore, Paul says that Jesus "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."(Heb 1:3, 4) If Jesus is God, then is it reasonable that he could ' obtain a name more excellent than' the angels, seeing that God's name is always the highest ?(Gen 14:22)

And to be especially noted, is that Hebrews 1:9 says of the "Son", Jesus Christ, that because he "loved righteousness, and...hated lawlessness," "that is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” Reasoning people realize that Paul would not have quoted Psalms 45:7, specifically applying it to Jesus if he is God, with Jesus being spoken of being ' anointed by your God '.

Hence, Jesus has a God, his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, just as we do. Hence, verse 9 contradicts verse 8 if it reads as the King James Bible renders it. Yet, most will never question verse 8 in relation to verse 9 in the King James Bible, but will continue to accept it at face value. On the other hand, if there was a discrepancy with their bank account, this would draw an immediate response.

Concerning the holy spirit being a person, this does not "hold water" with the Bible, for again, how could it be a person that is God according to the churches, and yet Jesus "be full of holy spirit" ?(Luke 4:1) This one Scripture alone should cause one to reevaluate his belief on the holy spirit, for God does not fill another God. The Greek word for "spirit" is pneuma, and is also rendered as "wind" at John 3:8 and as "spirit" in the same Scripture. Why ? Because pneuma refers to a force that is invisible to human sight but gives evidence of force in motion, producing visible effects. Had the "holy spirit"(Greek hagios pneuma) been a person, then it could not have been used to express the word "wind", something invisible and not a person but that produces visible results.

And yes "God is a Spirit"(John 4:24), being invisible, but how can the "holy spirit" be spoken as God's "holy spirit", as being possessed by God, such as at Psalms 51:10,11, Isaiah 63:10,11, Luke 1:35, 41, if it God also ? Does God possess God ? Reasonable individuals will give new consideration to what the holy spirit is, that it is God's applied power, used in both creation and empowering loyal ones to accomplish his will. If the holy spirit is God, then how can a person be ' baptized with holy spirit and fire' ?(Matt 3:11) Just as fire is not a person, so likewise the holy spirit is not a person, but is God's active force or applied power.

Dear Jaareshiah,
I agree with most of what you said above. However, I am not sure I have a complete understanding of your beliefs in this matter. Please bear with me and let me explain my understanding. If you don't agree with certain aspects of it, I would appreciate you telling me with what parts you differ and what scripture you use to support your understanding. In a nut shell, here is what I believe:

God the Father is the supreme, all powerful, eternal God from which all things exist. He is greater than all. Jesus Christ was created by the Father prior to the creation of our world. He was made in the Father's image. Christ was given the fullness of the Father's Spirit (Holy Spirit) and because of this, Christ is "one" with the Father in character and actions. When we say that we know Christ, we can also say that we know the Father though they are not the same person. Christ came out of the Father and is the Father's Son. Though He is a Son, it is not wrong to call Him "God". He is our Lord and God as Thomas proclaimed. However, God the Father is Christ's God and therefore also our God. I see "God" as a title rather than just a name. God the Father is supreme, Jesus Christ is also God but of lesser authority as scripture states. Mankind will also someday be sons of God and for those of lesser authority than us (who I don't know), they would not be wrong to call us God either. However, God the Father is supreme from which we all exist. The process mankind is going through, is the way God the Father produces offspring. Mankind will be fully made in the image of God someday and we all will be in the "God" family, but of lesser authority and power than the Father. A son cannot be greater than a father, nor is the one sent, greater than the one who sends him.

Just to make sure that there is no confusion, I am not in the Jehovah Witnesses nor have I ever been. In fact, I know very little about that group. I am not connected to any organized church group and my understanding of scripture comes from scripture and not from any denomination's teachings. In fact, my understanding of scripture is different in nearly every aspect of mainline Christianity. The trinity is just one of those differences.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

Hi Joe in Arkansas

Sorry for delay in coming back to you. I just thought I would say a couple of things in answer to your comments.

I do agree that when the Bible was translated from the original to the King James version it was not translated entirely perfectly but what I don't agree is that there are serious flaws because I believe the Word of God is perfect. The men that translated this Bible a few hundred years ago did so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and God is more than able, Himself, to keep His Word. So, I believe there are no mistakes. I would be in serious error to believe such.

You said that 'study against the original Greek is absolutely necessary to avoid errors in understanding'. I cannot honestly say I can totally agree with this either. Not all Bible students believe the New Testament was originally in the greek language. Today, greek scholars say that the greek language is so perfect and exact that if a student learning greek is a refined and accurate grammarian he can truly know exactly what the New Testament Word teaches. But this is only really a theory. There are theologians today that claim that the original manuscripts were written in Aramaic which was the language of Jesus's day. It is claimed that the people did not speak and write in the greek as it is commonly thought. It has been discovered that if you compare the King James version with the Aramaic that you'll find there is no difference actually in content or doctrine. Nobody really can base interpretation upon students' profound knowledge of the language the Bible is written in. Further to this, there is no doubt that the pharisees and saducees were great scholars 2000 years ago when Jesus came and they knew the Old Testament which, I might add, was written in their own language. They would have known the exact laws of grammar and the exact meanings of all the words but for all their wonderful and superb knowledge, they missed the Messiah who was manisfested in human flesh, whose coming was prophesied clearly in the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. Except for a few who saw and believed on the Lord, the great minds of the day with all their degrees of divinity and so forth missed Him completely! The same happens today.

We can all search and study until we go blue in the face but the only and best way to get the true meaning of the scriptures is to ask the Lord to reveal it because it will take a revelation from God to bring out the truth. There are too many translations in the world today (some of which are obviously not inspired of the Lord) but it will only take a revelation of the Spirit, and God wants to reveal His Word.

As for Revelation 3:21 it says that the overcomers will sit with Christ in the throne, not on it. This throne actually refers to His domain where He is the ruler of the complete domain of God. It says in the Word that Jesus is set down at the right hand of God yet when John looked he saw only one upon the throne. There is only one God and I will always believe that there is only one God and that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is the Holy Spirit and so on. The key here is that I believe this to be so because God has revealed it to me in His mercy and grace. I don't feel compelled to vehemently study and search and wonder who everyone exactly is because I know He is all of it.

God Bless!

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hi Joe in Arkansas

Sorry for delay in coming back to you. I just thought I would say a couple of things in answer to your comments.

I do agree that when the Bible was translated from the original to the King James version it was not translated entirely perfectly but what I don't agree is that there are serious flaws because I believe the Word of God is perfect. The men that translated this Bible a few hundred years ago did so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and God is more than able, Himself, to keep His Word. So, I believe there are no mistakes. I would be in serious error to believe such.

You said that 'study against the original Greek is absolutely necessary to avoid errors in understanding'. I cannot honestly say I can totally agree with this either. Not all Bible students believe the New Testament was originally in the greek language. Today, greek scholars say that the greek language is so perfect and exact that if a student learning greek is a refined and accurate grammarian he can truly know exactly what the New Testament Word teaches. But this is only really a theory. There are theologians today that claim that the original manuscripts were written in Aramaic which was the language of Jesus's day. It is claimed that the people did not speak and write in the greek as it is commonly thought. It has been discovered that if you compare the King James version with the Aramaic that you'll find there is no difference actually in content or doctrine. Nobody really can base interpretation upon students' profound knowledge of the language the Bible is written in. Further to this, there is no doubt that the pharisees and saducees were great scholars 2000 years ago when Jesus came and they knew the Old Testament which, I might add, was written in their own language. They would have known the exact laws of grammar and the exact meanings of all the words but for all their wonderful and superb knowledge, they missed the Messiah who was manisfested in human flesh, whose coming was prophesied clearly in the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. Except for a few who saw and believed on the Lord, the great minds of the day with all their degrees of divinity and so forth missed Him completely! The same happens today.

We can all search and study until we go blue in the face but the only and best way to get the true meaning of the scriptures is to ask the Lord to reveal it because it will take a revelation from God to bring out the truth. There are too many translations in the world today (some of which are obviously not inspired of the Lord) but it will only take a revelation of the Spirit, and God wants to reveal His Word.

As for Revelation 3:21 it says that the overcomers will sit with Christ in the throne, not on it. This throne actually refers to His domain where He is the ruler of the complete domain of God. It says in the Word that Jesus is set down at the right hand of God yet when John looked he saw only one upon the throne. There is only one God and I will always believe that there is only one God and that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is the Holy Spirit and so on. The key here is that I believe this to be so because God has revealed it to me in His mercy and grace. I don't feel compelled to vehemently study and search and wonder who everyone exactly is because I know He is all of it.

God Bless!

Dear Eagle_eyes,
I am confused by your first couple of statements. You said that you agree that the KJV was not translated entirely perfect but then you later say that the translation was done under the inspiration of God. Are you saying that the inspiration of God is not entirely perfect? I'm sure you would agree that God does not make mistakes (that would be a sin) so even one error in the translation proves that the KJV was not translated by the inspiration of God. There are not any perfect translations of scripture from the Greek to another language. The KJV is very good in most areas but it still has some "major" errors in it's translation. As I said before, the KJV over the years has corrected over 1000 errors (most minor) but still, how can this be if it is a "God inspired translation"? What evidence do you have that proves that the KJV is God inspired?

Scripture commands us to study using a double witness of scripture and also tells us to take into account that the "sum" of God's Word is truth. We are to rightly divide the Word also. This process of studying is very time consuming but is necessary. I do agree with you that all the studying in the world will not give a blind man the ability to see. Satan deceives the whole world but eventually Christ's elect have this deception removed so that they can come out from under Satan's deception. We are all born spiritually blind to the truth of God and we are at God's mercy for Him to remove our blindness so that we can see and know the truth of scripture. I was spiritually blind for over 30 years and could never stop having my beliefs conflict with certain scriptures. Somehow, I would twist those scriptures enough to make them conform. Amazing how man do this to just about anything he sets his mind to. But the Lord was merciful to me about 5 years ago and caused me to pray concerning by inability to understand. Three days after that prayer, the Lord opened by spiritual eyes. My life was soon turned upside down. I soon learned that all my Christian beliefs were either completely wrong or partially wrong. Looking back, it is easy to see how deceived I was. But until one's deception is removed, a person cannot know that they are deceived. I always thought I knew the Lord's truth up until that time 5 years ago - no one could have convinced me otherwise. But after the Lord healed my "eyes and ears", I could see what my true state had been. I was miserable, naked, wretched, poor and blind. Now I can understand scripture without ignoring certain other scriptures that conflict because now they no longer conflict with my understanding. It took 2 or 3 years before I understood all the main truths of scripture. I am sure I still have more to learn but now the Lord has given me the ability to learn it and to grow spiritually.

Now concerning the thrones in Rev 3:21. There are no actual thrones that Christ and the Father sit on. Revelation is a book of symbols. As you mentioned, the thrones are shown to us to symbolize the authority of the one who sits on it. The single throne later in Revelation is Christ's throne and not the Father's throne. Everything in Revelation concerns Christ and who He is, was and will be. Revelation 3:21 merely restates that Christ has authority but that His authority is subordinate to the Father's. This is represented by the thrones in Rev 3:21 and is supported numerous times by other verses. And yes, Christ's elect will sit with Christ in His throne because they will rule and reign with Christ until the ages are complete. Christ is our head and the Father is Christ's head. But Christ's throne will not last forever(Rev 5:13) but only until the ages are complete. KJV wrongly translates aion or aionios to mean forever or eternal. Aion means "age" - a segment of time that has a beginning and an end. It can never mean forever nor can it's adjective form "aionios" mean forever. As I have pointed out in 1 Cor 15:20-28, Christ's delivers up the Kingdom to the Father once all things are complete. After this event occurs, God the Father will be "all in all". Everyone who has ever lived during the ages will be in God the Father. Nothing further is stated in scripture about what happens after this event of Christ handing over the Kingdom to the Father. The plan of God and all the "ages" will then be complete. God's plan to create man in His image through Christ will be accomplished with no one left out. Christ truly is the Savior of the world. The trinity doctrine does not fit in anywhere in these relationships between us, Christ and the Father.

I appreciate discussing these things with you and for giving me the opportunity to present what I understand from scripture.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas

 

[Boanerges]

Many, such as yourself, never give deep consideration, to what the Bible really teaches concerning God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit. These follow the same old "road" that the churches have tread on for centuries, that the trinity is "truth".

If you do not wish to see the whole truth of God's counsel (the Word of God) then you will not.
If you read with an open heart you will plainly see the Jesus was both man and God.
Either way you are in my prayers,
Your friend Larry.

 

[Veracity]

What is the one thing God does not know?

What is impossible for God?
Who created all things?
Did God not say that He was our only Savior?
Did God not say we should worship Him and only Him?
What is the first commandment?
Did God not say that He was the arm of salvation?
Is not Gods right hand full of righteousness?
Did God not say He would strengthen and uphold with His Righteous right hand?
Is not God our only Savior?
Who is our only redeemer?
In who’s name did Jesus come?
Was Jesus not called the everlasting Father?
Did not Jesus create all things by His hand?
Is not Jesus the right hand of God?
Is God so weak that He needs a helper?
Is God so incapable that He had to send another in His name?
Is God invisible?
Is God spirit?
Is Jesus the image of the invisible God?
Did God not say He was our comforter?
Did Jesus say He would send a comforter?
Is not Jesus called the comforter?
Is the Holy Spirit the comforter?
Can God be divided?
Did God not say He would not share His Glory with another?
Did God not say He would not be compared to another?
If you have seen Jesus, who have you seen?
Was Mary overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceive a son?
Who then is Jesus the flesh of?
Did the bible not say that the babe would be called the Son of God?
If all power was given to Jesus, what then is left for God or the Holy Spirit?
How are we saved?
What is the Gospel?
Who is greater than God Almighty?
Who is the King of Israel?
Who is the Redeemer of Israel?
What is God made of?
Can the clay instruct the Potter?
Who is the Father, who is the Savior, who is the Spirit of God, if the God of Abraham and Isaac said it was He?
What face are we told to seek?
What Kingdom are we told to seek?
Did Jesus claim to have a Kingdom?
Is it a different Kingdom than the Kingdom of God?
Where is the Kingdom?
Who are we to worship?
If God said He was the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus said He was the Alpha and the Omega, who is telling the truth if they are separate entities?
If you sin against the Holy Spirit who have you denied?
If you deny Christ, who do you reject?
If God Almighty is the great I Am, how is Jesus the I Am?
When you are filled with the Spirit, who comes to you?
Who do you say lives in your heart?
Did Jesus explain how to baptize?
Who is the Father?
Who is the Son?
Who is the Holy Spirit?
What name did the apostles baptize into?
By what name can we be saved?
What name is above All names?
Did God choose the simple things to confound the wise?
What is the one thing God does not know?
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This could go on, but if you are stuck on learned behavior, it will mean nothing still.

God alone is able.
The one thing God does not know is another God.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Dear SpiritLedEd,
If there is no chance of explaining the trinity in human terms, then how can you believe in it?

By faith in Scripture's reference to it (which you've omitted): Mt 28:18 says, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

By admitting that true faith goes beyond human understanding:

Ro 4:18 -"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him."

Heb 11:1 -"Now faith being is sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

SLE

 

[Jaareshiah]

Go back to Php 2:5-7 NIV. Jesus came to earth as God AND man. He was and is God but, humbling Himself, He laid aside His powers and prerogatives as God and took upon Himself a human nature under the guidance and empowering of the Holy Spirit.

SLE

Philippians 2:5-7 does not, in any way, give evidence that Jesus is God, that "Jesus came to the earth as God AND man." Making a statement that Jesus is God is no different than the Jews in Jesus day disregarding him as God's Son, despite all the evidence.(John 9:6, 7)

Rather, it says that "Christ Jesus...was existing in God's form (as a spirit), (and) gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God...he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men." The angels are also "existing in God's form", for they are spirits.(Ps 104:4) Talk about distorting scripture ! This is no different than the Pharisees ' straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel.'(Matt 23:24)

If Jesus was God, would he have to consider a "seizure" ?("robbery", King James Bible, literally "snatching", online interlinear Scripture4all ) However, Paul never said nor intimated, even remotely, that Jesus is God. If a person is a CEO, would he have to consider "robbery" to obtain this position since he already has the position of CEO ?

Most never reason what the Bible really says, never doing any kind in-depth homework as to the accuracy of the Bible which they read nor reasoning on it, trying to assemble a clear picture of who God and Jesus is. Sadly, many Bible translators are biased toward the trinity, prejudiced, without regard for what is truly accurate.

Furthermore, if Jesus is God, then why did Paul say that "God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave the name that is above every other name" ?(Phil 2:9) How could Jesus be "exalted to a superior position" since there is no higher position than God ? Or how could Jesus be God and yet be "given the name that is above every other name" since God's name is the highest, being called "the Most High", that expression being used of God some 51 times ?

And to say that Jesus "was and is God....humbling himself....laid aside his powers and prerogatives as God" has not one stitch of basis in the Bible, but is a statement that demeans God himself. Psalms 48:14 says that "God is our God for ever and ever."(King James Bible) Hence, there is never a time when he has "laid aside his powers and prerogatives as God."

 

[paganmystic]

Joe in Arkansas

I was going to address the fact I was accused of being unscriptural in my post from the other day, but after back reading it would appear to be a waste of time. This is the second time that this has happened for the same reason, being narrow or closed minded has been a problem with people since the beginning of time, the great flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the fall of Jerusalem, the enslavement of the Israelites and Jews (some people) bear witness to that.. What you have addressed is also not new and is born out in the superstitious beliefs that have blocked people from receiving the Spirit for generations, most of which is introduced by the power- hungry command structures of the religious systems, picking and choosing what their congregation can and cannot know. This being passed down unabated for over 7000 years and also uncontrolled for the almost 2000 years since Jesus’ ascension.

Let’s look at 1 John 5:7. Hmm, added in the 1500's to sell the trinity, if that were the case you would have to remove that entire chapter, since it is clear that the building to v.7 starts at v.1 and then slowly diminishes toward the end of chapter where other parts fit in. If what you claim is true that entry simply would not fit, but it does. Then you would have to say that in his Gospel, John lied to us; with verses 1-4 in chapter 1. Not to mention the one propagated by Abraham in Genesis 18:2-9. When he bade his wife to bake 3 cakes because the Lord came to visit. The Lord was in singular yet 3 persons stood before him(Abraham). Or was Abraham just an ignorant Shepard? Back to the Gospel in all 4 books, references are made to the unity of the 3 parts of God and that each part is distinctively different, yet, still, just 1 God..

As I said God created us in his image, hmm, I guess I will defend my position after all, Gen1:26-27. <26> And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness; There is no sort of here or except for, what I said is completely scriptural, then <27> So, God created man in his own image, in the image of God. Therefore we have 3 distinctly different parts, yet we are 1 person. It also requires unison of all 3 parts to receive the Spirit. Again, that is very clearly laid out in the Gospel, by which we must live our lives by..

Just for you information I use the original KJV, Red Letter(Jesus’ quotes) Edition. It also has a Strong’s, Greek and Hebrew/Chaldee dictionaries, it also has a study guide complete with grammatical notes. The word of God is far too important in my life to chance it, by guessing as to what was meant.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

By faith in Scripture's reference to it (which you've omitted): Mt 28:18 says, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

By admitting that true faith goes beyond human understanding:

Ro 4:18 -"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him."

Heb 11:1 -"Now faith being is sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

SLE

Dear SpiritLedEd,
Matt 28:18 neither proves or disproves the trinity doctrine. All it does is mention the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in one verse. It makes no claim has to their relationship with each other. There are many verses that do however and they disprove the trinity doctrine.

Faith must be founded upon God's Word but since the trinity doctrine is not found in scripture, from where is it founded? The only place I can find the foundation of the trinity doctrine is from church tradition, otherwise know as traditions of man. I have quoted many scriptures that refute several aspects of the trinity doctrine. So far, no one has responded and explained why those scriptures don't apply. If you find a conflict with a certain belief in scripture, the problem is not with the scripture but with the belief. Ignoring the scriptures that conflict will never lead anyone to God's Truth. Scripture says that one must search for understanding and insight "as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasures... then you will find the knowledge of God" (Prov 2:1-5). My faith is founded upon God's Word. If one cannot understand God's Word, then on what is that person's faith founded? Please respond to the scriptures I have previously quoted and explain why the trinity doctrine is supported by them rather than disproved as I contend.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe in Arkansas