Trinity

[saginon]

A few comments...
I agree with most of the OP.

Do you know the leading cause of Atheism? CHRISTIANS! I can explain why later.

I disagree with this comment...

God lay His life down for our sins

The Trinitarian concept that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man is confusing, incoherent, and inaccurate. To say Jesus is 100% God makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax. Why do I say that? James 1:13 says...

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

That means that Jesus could not have been tempted and could not have sinned BECAUSE - HE'S 100% GOD! The trinitarian concept of Jesus being BOTH God and man at the same time is a perfect justification for trinitarians to cover up all of their irrational false teachings.

 

[KingJ]

A few comments...
I agree with most of the OP.

Do you know the leading cause of Atheism? CHRISTIANS! I can explain why later.

I disagree with this comment...

The Trinitarian concept that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man is confusing, incoherent, and inaccurate. To say Jesus is 100% God makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax. Why do I say that? James 1:13 says...

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

That means that Jesus could not have been tempted and could not have sinned BECAUSE - HE'S 100% GOD! The trinitarian concept of Jesus being BOTH God and man at the same time is a perfect justification for trinitarians to cover up all of their irrational false teachings.

The trinity can be confusing. But it is true. I just have two points to make.

1. God did not bend the rules for Himself.

God wanted to do the whole ''God in the flesh'' thing properly. No ''cheating''. He wanted to be as vulnerable, isolated and as weak as were are. He is an authentic God. The verse you raised and all the times Jesus spoke to God, asked for the cup to be removed, was forsaken, beaten and crucified when He could all 1000 angels. This all points to authenticity.

Jesus was not God the Father. Jesus was God the Son.

2. Jesus was crucified for making Himself equal with God.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jews always knew the link between the Messiah (Son) and God. Isa 9:6 spells it out with crystal clarity '' For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace''.

Many Jews at the time wanted to crucifiy Him for breaking their commandments. Like the Sabbath. But if we read Mark 2:27 we see that Jesus says He can break it, because He is God for whom the Sabbath was made.

When asked by the people to show them the Father, He says in John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

 

[saginon]

The trinity can be confusing. But it is true. I just have two points to make.

I have never been convinced of a Trinity. Why? Too many to mention.
The Trinity must be taken as a whole. If ONE tenet in the doctrine is false, it comes tumbling down.

Jesus IS NOT equal to the Father, he said, "the Father is greater."

Jesus isn't all knowing, he said "only the Father knows the day and hour of his return."

Jesus said, "says he can do nothing on his own" proving his subordination to the Father.

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega.” The BEGINNING and the END. Trinitarians tell us that statement indicates Jesus WAS AT THE BEGINNING. However, beginning implies a beginning, and Jesus is saying that he WAS the FIRST of all of God's creation...NOT that he was there. The Textus Receptus also supports this. The word FIRSTBORN comes from the terms BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH.

Jesus said "blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not." If they were the same person, blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. That alone destroyes the Trinity doctrine!

1. God did not bend the rules for Himself.

God wanted to do the whole ''God in the flesh'' thing properly. No ''cheating''. He wanted to be as vulnerable, isolated and as weak as were are. He is an authentic God. The verse you raised and all the times Jesus spoke to God, asked for the cup to be removed, was forsaken, beaten and crucified when He could all 1000 angels. This all points to authenticity.

That all points to the fact that Jesus was a man and not fully God.

Jesus was not God the Father. Jesus was God the Son.

Nowhere in the bible is Jesus referred to or called "God the Son." That's a total Trinitarian invention.

2. Jesus was crucified for making Himself equal with God.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You need to read the entire chapter, especially what Jesus said right AFTER the Pharisees said this...
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Then Jesus replied, now notice what he said...
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

It was the perception of the Pharisees that Jesus was making himself equal to God because He was healing on the Sabbath. Jesus responds to that accusation by saying..."The Son can do nothing of himself" proving he is subject to and not equal to the Father.

The Pharisees also accused Jesus of making himself out to be God in John 10:33-36. Notice what he said...

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?

Jews always knew the link between the Messiah (Son) and God. Isa 9:6 spells it out with crystal clarity '' For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace''.
Many Jews at the time wanted to crucify Him for breaking their commandments. Like the Sabbath. But if we read Mark 2:27 we see that Jesus says He can break it, because He is God for whom the Sabbath was made.

That's correct and that explains why the Pharisees wrongly believed Jesus was making himself equal to the Father and Jesus reaffirms he's not equal to God by saying "he can do nothing on his own!" 'Mighty God' isn't the same as ALMIGHTY GOD! You do know that we are also called God? Jesus is a God like we are called a god because of position and nothing else.

When asked by the people to show them the Father, He says in John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

What did Jesus say in verse 29? "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all." What did he say just a few verse after - v. 34-35...

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Not one verse you've quoted even implies a co-equal trinity. Being one implies the Father and Jesus are undivided. They have the same objectives, mission, intention, and purpose.

People need to look at the trinity doctrine as a whole because that's why it comes tumbling down. It's actually a heretical Catholic doctrine that many people have been murdered over.

 

[KingJ]

I have never been convinced of a Trinity. Why? Too many to mention.
The Trinity must be taken as a whole. If ONE tenet in the doctrine is false, it comes tumbling down.

Jesus IS NOT equal to the Father, he said, "the Father is greater."

Jesus isn't all knowing, he said "only the Father knows the day and hour of his return."

Jesus said, "says he can do nothing on his own" proving his subordination to the Father.

Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega.” The BEGINNING and the END. Trinitarians tell us that statement indicates Jesus WAS AT THE BEGINNING. However, beginning implies a beginning, and Jesus is saying that he WAS the FIRST of all of God's creation...NOT that he was there. The Textus Receptus also supports this. The word FIRSTBORN comes from the terms BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH.

Jesus said "blasphemy against him will be forgiven but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not." If they were the same person, blasphemy against one would be blasphemy against the other. That alone destroyes the Trinity doctrine!

That all points to the fact that Jesus was a man and not fully God.

Nowhere in the bible is Jesus referred to or called "God the Son." That's a total Trinitarian invention.

You need to read the entire chapter, especially what Jesus said right AFTER the Pharisees said this...
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

Then Jesus replied, now notice what he said...
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

It was the perception of the Pharisees that Jesus was making himself equal to God because He was healing on the Sabbath. Jesus responds to that accusation by saying..."The Son can do nothing of himself" proving he is subject to and not equal to the Father.

The Pharisees also accused Jesus of making himself out to be God in John 10:33-36. Notice what he said...

John 10:33-36 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?


That's correct and that explains why the Pharisees wrongly believed Jesus was making himself equal to the Father and Jesus reaffirms he's not equal to God by saying "he can do nothing on his own!" 'Mighty God' isn't the same as ALMIGHTY GOD! You do know that we are also called God? Jesus is a God like we are called a god because of position and nothing else.

What did Jesus say in verse 29? "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all." What did he say just a few verse after - v. 34-35...

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Not one verse you've quoted even implies a co-equal trinity. Being one implies the Father and Jesus are undivided. They have the same objectives, mission, intention, and purpose.

People need to look at the trinity doctrine as a whole because that's why it comes tumbling down. It's actually a heretical Catholic doctrine that many people have been murdered over.

Derailing the thread. Maybe ask a mod to post your post in a new thread.

 

[saginon]

Derailing the thread. Maybe ask a mod to post your post in a new thread.

I made a mistake. You're the one who went off on the trinity. I just responded to your own derailment. If you would have said Jesus laid down his life for our sins it would have never gone in the direction it did. It's not true that God laid His life down for our sins. It is true that Jesus did.

 

[KingJ]

I made a mistake. You're the one who went off on the trinity. I just responded to your own derailment. If you would have said Jesus laid down his life for our sins it would have never gone in the direction it did. It's not true that God laid His life down for our sins. It is true that Jesus did.

Let's discuss this properly in a thread dedicated to the trinity. This thread is not about the trinity. You have cherry picked a line from me.

I have debated and discussed on forums for around ten years now. In all those years I have never seen someone opposing the trinity win a debate.

 

[newname]

Let's discuss this properly in a thread dedicated to the trinity. This thread is not about the trinity. You have cherry picked a line from me.

I have debated and discussed on forums for around ten years now. In all those years I have never seen someone opposing the trinity win a debate.

1:06 Best explanation of the Trinity ever.

 

[saginon]

Let's discuss this properly in a thread dedicated to the trinity. This thread is not about the trinity. You have cherry picked a line from me.

I have debated and discussed on forums for around ten years now. In all those years I have never seen someone opposing the trinity win a debate.

Try me. Just keep the condemnation out of the discussion. Start a thread and give it your best shot. It'll be me and maybe a few others on the forum who reject Trinity against most everyone else on the forum and I like that. All I ask is to keep the condemnation OUT of the debate!

 

[Sue D.]

Christianity is what God has already done For us through Jesus Christ -- His / Jesus Christ's shed blood and His bodily resurrection.

Religion is what man Tries to do to reach God ie our own good works.

And how can Anyone reject the trinity / Godhead // it's seen throughout Scripture. Without the trinity, there would be no salvation. And it's Not some concept made up by the RCC or anyone else.

 

[saginon]

Christianity is what God has already done For us through Jesus Christ -- His / Jesus Christ's shed blood and His bodily resurrection.

Religion is what man Tries to do to reach God ie our own good works.

And how can Anyone reject the trinity / Godhead // it's seen throughout Scripture. Without the trinity, there would be no salvation. And it's Not some concept made up by the RCC or anyone else.

The religion of Christianity adopted the trinity doctrine through Catholicism and a man names Athanasius who was a Catholic Bishop and later canonized as a saint, there's no denying it. The Trinity saves nobody.

 

[newname]

The religion of Christianity adopted the trinity doctrine through Catholicism and a man names Athanasius who was a Catholic Bishop and later canonized as a saint, there's no denying it. The Trinity saves nobody.

I think they should never have done that. It's only confusing. Trinity is not even a name, yes from a christian Dutch gospel band, but say Yahweh or Jesus, Yahweh saves, not Trinity. What or who is that? Sounds so vague. It's only a stumbling block for Jews and when I told a trinitarian it was Jesus that Moses spoke to, he didn't even believe me. Did Abraham believe in the Trinity and call God Trinity? He's saved without ever doing that. They believed in Yahweh and the Ruach H'kodesh and the Angel of the Lord and noone ever called God Trinity. Then why should I? Is there anyone who says, when he prays: dear Trinity.. ? A catholic girl on a forum always talked about the holy Trinity. I just say God or Jesus. Jesus said to Philip in John that He would live in us and the Father and the Holy Spirit. Did anyone ever notice a difference in you if it was the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit you were talking to? I never did. I don't believe it matters if someone believes it or not. We have to confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead. Believing the dogma of the Trinity isn't a prerequisite to get saved. That's what the catholic church made from it. As long as you don't believe Jesus is the angel Michael or something it's fine. And Calvin killing Servettus over the unity of God, I mean seriously? If they kill you, thinking they do God a favor, they don't know the Father nor Me. I pray they will be one, like We are one and then go fight over that. Dumbest thing ever.

 

[saginon]

I think they should never have done that. It's only confusing. Trinity is not even a name, yes from a christian Dutch gospel band, but say Yahweh or Jesus, Yahweh saves, not Trinity. What or who is that? Sounds so vague. It's only a stumbling block for Jews and when I told a trinitarian it was Jesus that Moses spoke to, he didn't even believe me. Did Abraham believe in the Trinity and call God Trinity? He's saved without ever doing that. They believed in Yahweh and the Ruach H'kodesh and the Angel of the Lord and noone ever called God Trinity. Then why should I? Is there anyone who says, when he prays: dear Trinity.. ? A catholic girl on a forum always talked about the holy Trinity. I just say God or Jesus. Jesus said to Philip in John that He would live in us and the Father and the Holy Spirit. Did anyone ever notice a difference in you if it was the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit you were talking to? I never did. I don't believe it matters if someone believes it or not. We have to confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead. Believing the dogma of the Trinity isn't a prerequisite to get saved. That's what the catholic church made from it. As long as you don't believe Jesus is the angel Michael or something it's fine. And Calvin killing Servettus over the unity of God, I mean seriously? If they kill you, thinking they do God a favor, they don't know the Father nor Me. I pray they will be one, like We are one and then go fight over that. Dumbest thing ever.

Trinity is the most confusing doctrine in Christianity. Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood. I'm not a JW but there's a very big likely hood that Jesus was an angel. Angels are called "sons of God."

Just think. There are probably trillions upon trillions of planets with people on them scattered throughout the universe, and trillions of them likely fell like ours. Using our earth as a model in a trinitarian framework, that means God had to become a man and suffer and die trillions of times. Hebrews just about says right out straight that Jesus was an angel! Angels are called 'sons of God???"

 

[Christ4Ever]

Trinity is the most confusing doctrine in Christianity. Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood. I'm not a JW but there's a very big likely hood that Jesus was an angel. Angels are called "sons of God."

Just think. There are probably trillions upon trillions of planets with people on them scattered throughout the universe, and trillions of them likely fell like ours. Using our earth as a model in a trinitarian framework, that means God had to become a man and suffer and die trillions of times. Hebrews just about says right out straight that Jesus was an angel! Angels are called 'sons of God???"

Dear Saginon,
I hope you have read the statement of faith of this site. If not please do so now. A link is provided to it, at the bottom of every page.

Now, you question the Trinity with an untrue statement of "Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood". Then enter your own conjecture about Jesus "big likely hood that Jesus was an angel". Do you not see the inconsistency of critiquing another's position at the same time you do the same?

Since this thread has nothing to do with the Trinity, and seems to have been hijacked on the subject. Continuing to do this, will be cause for you to receive a warning. So, you won't be tempted to do so, I'll go ahead and move the offending postings to another thread under "Trinity".

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[saginon]

Dear Saginon,
I hope you have read the statement of faith of this site. If not please do so now. A link is provided to it, at the bottom of every page.

Now, you question the Trinity with an untrue statement of "Trinitarians even admit it can't be explained or understood". Then enter your own conjecture about Jesus "big likely hood that Jesus was an angel". Do you not see the inconsistency of critiquing another's position at the same time you do the same?

Since this thread has nothing to do with the Trinity, and seems to have been hijacked on the subject. Continuing to do this, will be cause for you to receive a warning. So, you won't be tempted to do so, I'll go ahead and move the offending postings to another thread under "Trinity".

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

Do I have to accept the forum's statement of faith and NOT discuss the trinity? There are unbelievers and even Atheist here who reject the forum's entire statement of faith.

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 1:1; God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb 1:2; in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Heb 1:3; And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4; having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5; For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
Heb 1:6; And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7; And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Of the Son.. "Your Throne O God". The Son is God.
This passage makes it clear Jesus is NOT an angel. Angels are created beings. The Bible says Jesus created creation.

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

[Christ4Ever]

Do I have to accept the forum's statement of faith and NOT discuss the trinity? There are unbelievers and even Atheist here who reject the forum's entire statement of faith.

Hello Saginon,
If that were so would I have created a thread where the subject could continue to be discussed?

You are correct, in your last statement, and when they become a nuisance to others, in their postings. They get dealt with accordingly. The warning to you is that you would be aware to thread carefully in how you make statements concerning Doctrinal beliefs that you may not agree with, so that you won't be dealt with as they are. Remaining to enjoy the fellowship, and opportunity to break bread and the ability to sharpen your iron with other brethren who will love you in spite of these doctrinal differences on Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[B-A-C]

Php 2:5; Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6; who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7; but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8; Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[Yib2me]

Now let's stop and look at the truth the real truth not the truth that the children of the devil try to perpetrated on everyone but the truth of God.

It is written in your Bible that my sheep know my voice and another they will not follow so either this is true or either it's a lie now if it is true that would mean that at least half of you the disagree with the other half on what is the truth are children of the devil because you cannot be following and knowing the voice of Jesus Christ and be disagreeing over what is true and not true.

 

[Yib2me]

If you are all of the same Spirit the Spirit of God then you all would agree with each other in Spirit and Truth.

This is an absolute
undeniable truth.

Therefore just by the fact that y'all cannot agree upon what is the truth is proof as some of you are children of the devil.

 

[Yib2me]

So which ones of you are children of the devil?